Cleaned Carbs, Replaced Gas, Still having engine problems. - Page 4

greg737 · April 25th, 2012, 07:19 AM

Well, it sounds like you've got good spark, good fuel delivery, and good air.

Since fuel+air+spark usually equals transportation I'd start to wonder about what sort of issue you could have that could cancel out good fuel, air and spark. The only one I can imagine would be the engine's timing. It wouldn't be too difficult an operation to get a timing light and do a couple of cranking tests, one from each coil to see if the spark is occurring "on" the correct timing mark on the rotor.

azwillnj · April 25th, 2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg737

Well, it sounds like you've got good spark, good fuel delivery, and good air.

Since fuel+air+spark usually equals transportation I'd start to wonder about what sort of issue you could have that could cancel out good fuel, air and spark. The only one I can imagine would be the engine's timing. It wouldn't be too difficult an operation to get a timing light and do a couple of cranking tests, one from each coil to see if the spark is occurring "on" the correct timing mark on the rotor.

I've already checked the cam timing and it was correct, and it doesn't matter if it's 180deg off because it has a waste spark.. I will see if I can get a hold of a timing light and try to check the spark timing and report back.

Thanks for the suggestion,
Alex.

greg737 · April 25th, 2012, 10:29 AM

While you're in the mood to confirm things, it would be worth verifying that you are getting fuel to the cylinders (to put the issue beyond any possibility of doubt). I suggest this because it sure sounds like you've done everything you can to insure the bike has good spark and that only leaves fuel and air as the possible problem.

You could crank it a bit then pull a spark plug and use your nose to determine if there's fuel getting into the cylinders. I'd put the choke on while cranking it to insure the cylinders get enough fuel to make it obvious for you. You could view the plug right at the moment when you pull it to see if it's wet with fuel (this will only be momentary because any fuel on it will quickly evaporate once you get it out of the engine, so having a magnifying glass and a bright light handy ahead of time would help). You could also have somebody help you by sniffing at one of the exhausts while you crank (do this outside so it will be obvious, not mingled with other garage odors). Or you could use a piece of tubing to route into the plug's hole to sniff air from the cylinder.

I pulling for you to track this thing down, fix it and ride.

azwillnj · April 25th, 2012, 10:55 AM

I pulled the plugs before replacing the side of the engine.. they were wet with fuel... no quick evaporation, actually wet. That's why I'm going to play with the mixing screws tonight.

Also, the oil I drained out by cracking the engine case smelled like gas suggesting that it is being grossly over fueled and that fuel is making it past the piston rings into the oil.

n4mwd · April 25th, 2012, 12:44 PM

If the carb passages are all clear, and you are getting wet plugs, then it looks a lot like the carb has not been put together correctly and may be letting too much fuel in. Possibly the guy before you left something out. Your best bet at this point is to buy another carb off ebay and use that.

If there is gas in the oil, one possibility, although unlikely, is that your petcock is not shutting off when the engine is off. If you pull the hoses off the petcock and gas comes out, then it is bad. I say this is unlikely because you checked your fuel bowl levels and said they were OK.

azwillnj · April 25th, 2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4mwd

If the carb passages are all clear, and you are getting wet plugs, then it looks a lot like the carb has not been put together correctly and may be letting too much fuel in. Possibly the guy before you left something out. Your best bet at this point is to buy another carb off ebay and use that.

If there is gas in the oil, one possibility, although unlikely, is that your petcock is not shutting off when the engine is off. If you pull the hoses off the petcock and gas comes out, then it is bad. I say this is unlikely because you checked your fuel bowl levels and said they were OK.

I have triple checked the number/order/location of all the parts of the carbs thinking something might have not been installed correctly or had been left out and everything is there. I really really don't want to buy new carbs, they are $200+, if it comes to that its going to be a difficult decision as to whether or not to try and find an EFI kit or put it on Craigslist as-is.. Have you made any decisions on your EFI kit? My offer of $400 shipped still stands.

Alex.

n4mwd · April 25th, 2012, 02:20 PM

I'm waiting to see what the new throttle bodies look like. If I like them, I may install it myself. The new price for the EFI kit direct from ecotrons is $600.

There is a simple test to see if something was left out of the carbs by the previous owner.

1. Turn the petcock off.
2. Drain both carb bowls.
3. Choke off. Throttle about half way.
4. Crank engine to see if it runs a little.

If the engine runs for a few seconds but wouldn't before, then the carb is bad. There are other reasons for a bad carb, but this is how you start a bike that has a carb that perpetually floods the engine.

If the plugs are wet with fuel, you have spark, then the carb is passing too much fuel. I;m assuming that you have left the air filter out for testing purposes.

One thing for sure is that the problem IS the carb. A new carb would most likely fix it (get one from a crashed bike - not an abandoned bike or you'll be buying another bad carb.) Not being able to hold the carb in my hands means that I can't say exactly how to fix it. Could be simple. Could be catastrophic.

You mentioned that you looked at the oil when you split the crankcase. Exactly what did you mean by that?

Where do you live? Anywhere near Florida? If you want to sell it and it has ALL its plastic, I might consider it. Do you have pictures?

Otherwise, you might consider parting it out (except for the carb).

azwillnj · April 26th, 2012, 05:13 AM

I got it to idle again last night.. Turns out there was so much fuel in the cylinders that the plugs were coated with fuel to a point where they were unable to spark... Such a simple, dumb thing. Put the plugs back in and same symptoms as before, chokes out and dies as soon as you touch the throttle... (AHHHHHH!!!!!!)

I started messing with the idle mixing screw to see if that made any difference, I played with all different combinations of screw position from .5-3 turns out and all combinations of throttle position/choke position and still nothing. As a last resort I turned the mixing screws all the way closed to see what would happen and to my surprise the bike still idled...

I called my Dad and he was as stumped as I was until we started talking about it.. This is the theory we have come up with: The pilot jet/needle is worn out and not seating properly. When the idle circuit was essentially closed by the mixing screw in my last test, enough fuel was leaking through the butterfly breather hole to keep it running. In all cases when you start opening the butterfly/throttle you are letting extremely rich air into the cylinder which is choking it out because the main jet is continually leaking. This is such a small defect that it would go unnoticed after f.i.v.e. cleanings of the carbs..

After a little googling: http://www.factorypro.com/tech/needle_jet_wear.html

I bought a FactoryPro stage 1&3 jet kit last night, it is suppose to arrive next week. I will update when I try it.

Alex.

greg737 · April 26th, 2012, 05:26 AM

Mystery solved!

Now all you have to do is replace the soft brass parts of the carbs until you get control over the mixture. It's going to run great after you replace and adjust them.

This reminds me of something my Dad told me a long, long time ago while we were working on an old Honda. He said that the brass parts of a carb will actually erode under useage and certain other conditions, and when this happens you end up with a carb that you can clean and adjust all you want and still never get it to run.

Strange that this appears to be the problem with a relatively young (2007) EX-250 but I guess that all it would take is for your particular bike to get some badly cast brass bits installed in it. Sort of a "factory lemon" carb situation that ended up in premature wear.

n4mwd · April 26th, 2012, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azwillnj

I got it to idle again last night.. Turns out there was so much fuel in the cylinders that the plugs were coated with fuel to a point where they were unable to spark... Such a simple, dumb thing. Put the plugs back in and same symptoms as before, chokes out and dies as soon as you touch the throttle... (AHHHHHH!!!!!!)

I started messing with the idle mixing screw to see if that made any difference, I played with all different combinations of screw position from .5-3 turns out and all combinations of throttle position/choke position and still nothing. As a last resort I turned the mixing screws all the way closed to see what would happen and to my surprise the bike still idled...

I called my Dad and he was as stumped as I was until we started talking about it.. This is the theory we have come up with: The pilot jet/needle is worn out and not seating properly. When the idle circuit was essentially closed by the mixing screw in my last test, enough fuel was leaking through the butterfly breather hole to keep it running. In all cases when you start opening the butterfly/throttle you are letting extremely rich air into the cylinder which is choking it out because the main jet is continually leaking. This is such a small defect that it would go unnoticed after f.i.v.e. cleanings of the carbs..

After a little googling: http://www.factorypro.com/tech/needle_jet_wear.html

I bought a FactoryPro stage 1&3 jet kit last night, it is suppose to arrive next week. I will update when I try it.

Alex.

Well I think you are finally on the right track. The mixture screws don't usually go bad, but they are included in a standard rebuild kit. Those are about $15 X 2.

If the bike is flooding, the main jet is the most likely culprit. So replacing it and the needle seat would be a good choice. I've never used anything but stock so I can't say as to whether that particular company is any good or not.

When starting a bike that has flooding problems, NEVER apply the choke. That puts even more fuel into the engine. Try starting with the throttle full open.

If my suspicions are correct, you can start the bike cold, but it either stalls when it gets warm or runs worse. Am I right?

azwillnj · May 3rd, 2012, 05:09 AM

Jet kit came, I installed everything like the kit wanted except I did NOT drill out the slide holes, as stated in the faq.ninja250 (thoughts on this?). Put the needle on position #4 from the top and used DJ098 as the instructions stated for stage 1 with an aftermarket exhaust.

Re-assembled everything and the bike started right up! Even responded perfectly while warm!

BUT.. then I tried to ride it. As soon as you engage a gear and put the engine under load it exhibits similar behavior as before. It's very difficult to get it past 3000 rpm. I managed to crank the throttle open, over rev it to about 6k and slowly let the clutch out to get it moving and tried the 'Italian tuneup'. I got it up to about 50mph (felt great!) while keeping the revs over 5k and revving the piss out of it in each gear. But as soon as I came to a stop it would exhibit the same symptoms. It seems as though it has tons of trouble revving between about 3k and 5k and at this point I think it has to be a jetting/needle tuning thing.

I didn't have a lot of time yesterday so the only other thing I tried was to read the spark plugs and adjust the needle position. I had wiped the right plug down last week when I re-assembled everything so it was fresh before this. When pulled after my ~5min ride they were black indicating a rich condition. I pulled the needles out and moved the stops to #3 from the top (closing the holes more) and it didn't seem to do anything. Today after work I am going to move the stop to position #5 from the top and see what happens.. unless someone has a better suggestion.

What about drilling the slide hole out? It could be bogging at those rpm's because the slides are coming up too fast. The increased size of that hole could fix that. Why is it stated in the faq's to not drill it out?

As for the main jet, It seems to be fine to redline so I don't think I need to change that, but I am not really sure. This is the first time I have tuned a carb and the first time I have ridden this bike/any bike.

Here is the reference on the jet sizes:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Dynojet...zes_conversion

Alex.

g21-30 · May 3rd, 2012, 05:45 AM

^^I too have an aftermarket complete exhaust with the K&N reusable air filter and ONLY used the DynoJet needles set in the 3rd position. Bike runs great.

My personal thoughts are you should NOT drill the slides and you should not install pods, rather use the factory filter setup or the K&N look alike. I don't remember if you have pods. If you do, you're getting TOO MUCH air and this keeps the engine from reving over 5K.

Check with Richard at Race Bike Rentals and see how he sets up his bikes. I think you will be surprised.

davenay67 · May 3rd, 2012, 06:16 AM

Those cylinder compression test numbers are low, and the 30psi difference is not a good sign. Was the compression gauge a push-on style or did it have an adaptor that screwed into the spark plug tunnels..??

I'm not suggesting that this has anything to do with the poor running of the engine when it's warmed up, but those numbers would worry me a bit.

azwillnj · May 3rd, 2012, 06:30 AM

It screwed into the spark plug hole, and after a valve readjustment it was, and is now 190psi on cyl 1 and 195psi on cyl 2.

davenay67 · May 3rd, 2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azwillnj

It screwed into the spark plug hole, and after a valve readjustment it was, and is now 190psi on cyl 1 and 195psi on cyl 2.

Excellent numbers....glad to hear that imporvement.

I haven 't heard anyone mention this part yet, so I will throw it in for consideration. What are the rubber tips on your float valves looking like. If they are worn then they will leak fuel even when they are supposed to shut off the flow. This would *possibly* explain your rich running and gas in the engine oil.

azwillnj · May 3rd, 2012, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davenay67

I haven 't heard anyone mention this part yet, so I will throw it in for consideration. What are the rubber tips on your float valves looking like. If they are worn then they will leak fuel even when they are supposed to shut off the flow. This would *possibly* explain your rich running and gas in the engine oil.

They look fine, and I have confirmed they are closing completely and the level is correct. I put the front tire up on a ramp to level the carbs, and leveled it from left to right, connected some clear tubing to the float bowl drains and cranked the engine so the petcock would open. When the level stabilized i checked the level and it is exactly perfect according to the service manual, 0.5mm above the top of the bowls.

azwillnj · May 3rd, 2012, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g21-30

My personal thoughts are you should NOT drill the slides and you should not install pods, rather use the factory filter setup or the K&N look alike. I don't remember if you have pods. If you do, you're getting TOO MUCH air and this keeps the engine from reving over 5K.

Check with Richard at Race Bike Rentals and see how he sets up his bikes. I think you will be surprised.

I have a 2 to 1 exhaust and the stock airbox and don't plan on changing either.

n4mwd · May 3rd, 2012, 04:10 PM

Just curious, but did they give you a new pair of these things in the jet kit or did they use something different? Or do you just use the old ones?

azwillnj · May 3rd, 2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Just curious, but did they give you a new pair of these things in the jet kit or did they use something different? Or do you just use the old ones?

What is that? How does it come out? Is it press fit?

azwillnj · May 3rd, 2012, 07:08 PM

http://faq.ninja250.org/images/f/fc/...ETOR_PARTS.png

16017, I thought it was press fit into the carb in the main jet hole? Can It just fall out and be forgotten when the previous owner cleans the carbs?

n4mwd · May 3rd, 2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azwillnj

http://faq.ninja250.org/images/f/fc/...ETOR_PARTS.png

16017, I thought it was press fit into the carb in the main jet hole? Can It just fall out and be forgotten when the previous owner cleans the carbs?

Yes, that's the little needle seat thing that seals the needle to the jet. They just fall out. New ones are about $25 at RonAyers part number 16017-1326 for the pregen. The newgen uses a different one. I was thinking that the new jet kit would have new ones. But like I said, I have never installed a jet kit so I don't know exactly what they have in them.

azwillnj · May 4th, 2012, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Yes, that's the little needle seat thing that seals the needle to the jet. They just fall out. New ones are about $25 at RonAyers part number 16017-1326 for the pregen. The newgen uses a different one. I was thinking that the new jet kit would have new ones. But like I said, I have never installed a jet kit so I don't know exactly what they have in them.

For those of you who have taken the carbs apart and seen this piece.. Can you tell by these pictures if it's there or not? http://imgur.com/a/PgTDC#YhojE

I wont be in town this weekend so I cant take a look at it until Sunday at the earliest.

CalvinAmI · May 4th, 2012, 07:24 AM

I looked at your pics and didn't see an angle when the seats are visible.
Here are a couple of pictures of the needle seat things before removal.
(the dirty set of carbs is mine before cleaning

)

azwillnj · May 4th, 2012, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinAmI

I looked at your pics and didn't see an angle when the seats are visible.
Here are a couple of pictures of the needle seat things before removal.
(the dirty set of carbs is mine before cleaning

)

I have never seen those before, the previous owner must have left them out when he reassembled the carbs.

When I took the carbs apart and compared the blowups with my carbs I thought they were press fit into the main jet hole this is my picture, you can see down into the hole where it looks like this thing exists:
http://i.imgur.com/YTVr7h.jpg

After some further googling it turns out that piece can just fall out, and is not press fit at all:
http://forums.ninja250.org/posting.p...&t=86952&tro=1

Here is a similar picture of my carbs, notice there is nothing coming out of the needle seat holes, and I have never seen anything in those holes that resembles that:
http://i.imgur.com/YhojEh.jpg

I cant believe it was this all along.. I am going to try and find the part somewhere local and put it in, I will let you guys know what happens...

Thanks for all the help,
Alex.

gilmorec61 · May 4th, 2012, 07:58 AM

I honestly cant tell you for sure if there in their or not, but it looks like they are missing. Take a picture looking directly down the main jet holes and we should be able to tell.

gilmorec61 · May 4th, 2012, 08:00 AM

Yeah man, your missing those. Get them back in and tell us how it runs.

sherwiner · May 4th, 2012, 08:09 AM

where is the gas tank vent? How do you clean it if needed?

Sherwiner

n4mwd · May 4th, 2012, 08:49 AM

The stick through and can be seen by looking through the bore - unless they were installed upside down. They only go one way. Their absence would explain why you are running rich for sure. Also, check the bottom of your ultrasonic cleaner to see if they fell out in there. Maybe they were stuck when you put it in, but then vibrated loose. Kinda hard to see in there unless you are looking for them.

The bottom photo in the list you gave shows no seat in the hole.

greg737 · May 4th, 2012, 08:56 AM

Holy crap... 1 and a half months, a 4 page thread full of effort, doubt and frustration and now it comes out that you were trying to tune carbs that didn't have all of their parts? Priceless.

You're telling us that both carbs are missing that part?

I'm betting the bike will run great when you install all the required parts.

I don't usually resort to Smilies but:

davenay67 · May 4th, 2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg737

Holy crap... 1 and a half months, a 4 page thread full of effort, doubt and frustration and it comes out that you were trying to tune carbs that didn't have all of their parts? Priceless.

You're telling us that both carbs are missing that part?

I'm betting the bike will run great when you install all the required parts.

Ah....yes, the joys of working on a used bike, trying to work around someone else's mistakes.

I cam across a perfect example myself last night when I discovered that the reason my petcock pours gas in 'on' and 'res' is becasue the PO installed the diaphragm spring on the wrong side....pushing the diaphragm open rather than holding it closed..!!

Like you said, priceless..!!

dino74 · May 4th, 2012, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZroe

Get a carb dip?

I bought an 09 250 that was sitting around for 6 months. The carbs were gummed over and I disassembled and clean them by hand. Still had problems. Finally last weekend, I used Berryman's Chem Dip (California Version)

http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Default.aspx?tabid=146

That stuff works! The only bad part is you have to completely disassemble the carbs, no plastic parts in the dip. One of the carb assemblies have a non-removable plastic intake for the gas while the other can be completely submerged.

I wish I had pics. For example, during my first cleaning, one of the pilot jets was horrible. I tried scrubbing it, soaking in SeaFoam. No go. Lucky I had a spare stock pilot jet so I didn't sweat it. Last weekend, for a test, I soaked the pilot jet in the carb dip. ~40 minutes later it came out looking new!

azwillnj · May 4th, 2012, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The stick through and can be seen by looking through the bore - unless they were installed upside down. They only go one way. Their absence would explain why you are running rich for sure. Also, check the bottom of your ultrasonic cleaner to see if they fell out in there. Maybe they were stuck when you put it in, but then vibrated loose. Kinda hard to see in there unless you are looking for them.

The bottom photo in the list you gave shows no seat in the hole.

I have some pictures of the carb before the ultrasonic cleaner and the pieces aren't in there either.. So they have never been there... I can't believe this, after all this it was a stupid metal tube.. haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg737

You're telling us that both carbs are missing that part?

Yes, gone from both, that's insane..

Just called the 9 dealerships closest to me and none have it in stock, resorted to getting it from eBay. I am going on vacation from Tuesday-Sunday next week so I wont be able to test it for 2 weeks. I am going to go crazy not knowing, haha.

Alex.

n4mwd · May 4th, 2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azwillnj

I have some pictures of the carb before the ultrasonic cleaner and the pieces aren't in there either.. So they have never been there... I can't believe this, after all this it was a stupid metal tube.. haha.

Yes, gone from both, that's insane..

Just called the 9 dealerships closest to me and none have it in stock, resorted to getting it from eBay. I am going on vacation from Tuesday-Sunday next week so I wont be able to test it for 2 weeks. I am going to go crazy not knowing, haha.

Alex.

This goes to show you how great Ninjas are. You were doing 50 mph on a Ninja that didn't even have all the parts in its carbs. Try that with a car.

For the part, Ron Ayers will give you the best dealer price. Takes about two weeks to get to you. You may be better off just getting a trash carb and using that. Here is one on ebay for $40 delivered. Looks like the parts you need are still in it.

azwillnj · May 7th, 2012, 07:41 PM

IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!!

I bought the carbs n4mwd found on eBay and had a friend pick them up for me over the weekend.. I have done this so many times I took the donor carbs apart and got the pieces out, took my carbs out, took them apart, adjusted the needles, put the new parts in, and put the bike back together in 31 mins, haha. It started right up, I went out for a ride and... IT ACTUALLY MOVES!!! Put about 10 miles on it.

Only things I need to do now are tuning the carbs more and fixing the RPM signal on my Vapor, it was jumping all over the place, there's a doc on the faq's that explains how to fix them so I'm good there. The carb issue I could use come help with, there is a choppy part of the RPM band between about 4k and 6k rpm (im estimating as the tach doesn't work) I know its an issue with either the needle setting or the jet size. Also, when blipping the throttle it hangs for a second then drops back down, I think this is a sign of it being too lean if I remember correctly. Again, I am using the DJ098 jet and position #4 from the top on the needle.

Thanks for all the help!
Alex.

n4mwd · May 8th, 2012, 06:08 AM

Congratulations!!!

In and out in 31 minutes, that's pretty fast. I'm thinking the battery box mod really helps with that. I've been tempted myself.

I can't speak to the new jet needles, but I do have a few suggestions. I recently had some vacuum leaks on my carb. The tubing wasn't bad, but I changed it anyway and it helped out a lot. The main intake boots are also a source if they are banged up bad or the clamps bottom out. But I also discovered another source for vacuum leaks which is the mixture screws.

Try covering the mixture screw holes with your fingers while its running to see if that makes a difference. If it does, the O-ring gaskets may be missing, bad or incorrectly installed. For the record, it goes from the bottom-> screw, spring, washer, O-ring. The problem is that they are so small, its super easy to get them misaligned due to the spring touching the sides and shooting the O-ring off the end.

Also, a hanging idle after blipping is not always mixture related. It seems that after a carb rebuild that it always does that until the bike is ridden for a while. Also, the plugs are probably messed up from before so its going to take them maybe a hundred miles to start working normally again. I wouldn't change them unless there is clear evidence that they are bad after at least 200 miles.

Lastly, you need to recheck your carb sync. Its probably fine, but do it anyway just to be sure.

n4mwd · May 8th, 2012, 06:14 AM

Also, maybe you could post some photos of the actual bike.

Now that you have the engine running good, maybe time to work on the tach.

davenay67 · May 8th, 2012, 06:25 AM

Revs that hang before dropping are typical of a lean mixture, put a few more miles on the bike and see if it still does this. If so, then you may need to tweak the mixture screws or look at your jetting.

And +1 for the carb sync. My bike was running like crap, and when I removed the carbs I could visibly see the sync was off, which meant that it was WAY-WAY-WAY off..!! Put the carbs back on the bike after a thorough cleaning and valve adjustment, and after the sync (so nice and easy after coming from an I4 and I3) the motor just started purring.

Now that you have a spare set of carbs, it would be good to have 1 set configured with stock jets, needles, etc....the spare you can use to experiment with tuning aspects.

choneofakind · May 8th, 2012, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I'm thinking the battery box mod really helps with that.

It does. Half an hour from start to finish is about what it takes me to have the carbs out, make a change, and get it all buttoned up again. The trick is not forgetting to re-attach that darn choke cable like I always forget

A.J. · June 16th, 2017, 02:46 PM

All these years later and this might be the best thing I've ever read. Wish this guy would check back in and let us know how the bike ran after that. I think this single thread might have saved me all the headache the OP went through. I hope anyway, just forwarded it to my mechanic. I love this forum!

Triple Jim · June 16th, 2017, 03:11 PM

You have an exceptional mechanic if he is willing to read a thread like this.

April 25th, 2012, 12:44 PM	#125
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	If the carb passages are all clear, and you are getting wet plugs, then it looks a lot like the carb has not been put together correctly and may be letting too much fuel in. Possibly the guy before you left something out. Your best bet at this point is to buy another carb off ebay and use that. If there is gas in the oil, one possibility, although unlikely, is that your petcock is not shutting off when the engine is off. If you pull the hoses off the petcock and gas comes out, then it is bad. I say this is unlikely because you checked your fuel bowl levels and said they were OK. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

April 25th, 2012, 02:20 PM	#127
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	I'm waiting to see what the new throttle bodies look like. If I like them, I may install it myself. The new price for the EFI kit direct from ecotrons is $600. There is a simple test to see if something was left out of the carbs by the previous owner. 1. Turn the petcock off. 2. Drain both carb bowls. 3. Choke off. Throttle about half way. 4. Crank engine to see if it runs a little. If the engine runs for a few seconds but wouldn't before, then the carb is bad. There are other reasons for a bad carb, but this is how you start a bike that has a carb that perpetually floods the engine. If the plugs are wet with fuel, you have spark, then the carb is passing too much fuel. I;m assuming that you have left the air filter out for testing purposes. One thing for sure is that the problem IS the carb. A new carb would most likely fix it (get one from a crashed bike - not an abandoned bike or you'll be buying another bad carb.) Not being able to hold the carb in my hands means that I can't say exactly how to fix it. Could be simple. Could be catastrophic. You mentioned that you looked at the oil when you split the crankcase. Exactly what did you mean by that? Where do you live? Anywhere near Florida? If you want to sell it and it has ALL its plastic, I might consider it. Do you have pictures? Otherwise, you might consider parting it out (except for the carb). __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

May 4th, 2012, 08:09 AM	#147
sherwiner ninjette.org newbie Name: SHERWINER Location: Chicago IL North burbs Join Date: Feb 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2002 Ninja 250 and '85 Yamaha Virago 700 Posts: 9	where's the gas tank vent? where is the gas tank vent? How do you clean it if needed? Sherwiner

May 4th, 2012, 08:49 AM	#148
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	The stick through and can be seen by looking through the bore - unless they were installed upside down. They only go one way. Their absence would explain why you are running rich for sure. Also, check the bottom of your ultrasonic cleaner to see if they fell out in there. Maybe they were stuck when you put it in, but then vibrated loose. Kinda hard to see in there unless you are looking for them. The bottom photo in the list you gave shows no seat in the hole. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

May 8th, 2012, 06:08 AM	#155
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	Congratulations!!! In and out in 31 minutes, that's pretty fast. I'm thinking the battery box mod really helps with that. I've been tempted myself. I can't speak to the new jet needles, but I do have a few suggestions. I recently had some vacuum leaks on my carb. The tubing wasn't bad, but I changed it anyway and it helped out a lot. The main intake boots are also a source if they are banged up bad or the clamps bottom out. But I also discovered another source for vacuum leaks which is the mixture screws. Try covering the mixture screw holes with your fingers while its running to see if that makes a difference. If it does, the O-ring gaskets may be missing, bad or incorrectly installed. For the record, it goes from the bottom-> screw, spring, washer, O-ring. The problem is that they are so small, its super easy to get them misaligned due to the spring touching the sides and shooting the O-ring off the end. Also, a hanging idle after blipping is not always mixture related. It seems that after a carb rebuild that it always does that until the bike is ridden for a while. Also, the plugs are probably messed up from before so its going to take them maybe a hundred miles to start working normally again. I wouldn't change them unless there is clear evidence that they are bad after at least 200 miles. Lastly, you need to recheck your carb sync. Its probably fine, but do it anyway just to be sure. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

April 25th, 2012, 07:19 AM	#121
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	Well, it sounds like you've got good spark, good fuel delivery, and good air. Since fuel+air+spark usually equals transportation I'd start to wonder about what sort of issue you could have that could cancel out good fuel, air and spark. The only one I can imagine would be the engine's timing. It wouldn't be too difficult an operation to get a timing light and do a couple of cranking tests, one from each coil to see if the spark is occurring "on" the correct timing mark on the rotor.

April 25th, 2012, 10:29 AM	#123
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	While you're in the mood to confirm things, it would be worth verifying that you are getting fuel to the cylinders (to put the issue beyond any possibility of doubt). I suggest this because it sure sounds like you've done everything you can to insure the bike has good spark and that only leaves fuel and air as the possible problem. You could crank it a bit then pull a spark plug and use your nose to determine if there's fuel getting into the cylinders. I'd put the choke on while cranking it to insure the cylinders get enough fuel to make it obvious for you. You could view the plug right at the moment when you pull it to see if it's wet with fuel (this will only be momentary because any fuel on it will quickly evaporate once you get it out of the engine, so having a magnifying glass and a bright light handy ahead of time would help). You could also have somebody help you by sniffing at one of the exhausts while you crank (do this outside so it will be obvious, not mingled with other garage odors). Or you could use a piece of tubing to route into the plug's hole to sniff air from the cylinder. I pulling for you to track this thing down, fix it and ride.

April 25th, 2012, 10:55 AM	#124
azwillnj ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: Greencastle Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: 57	I pulled the plugs before replacing the side of the engine.. they were wet with fuel... no quick evaporation, actually wet. That's why I'm going to play with the mixing screws tonight. Also, the oil I drained out by cracking the engine case smelled like gas suggesting that it is being grossly over fueled and that fuel is making it past the piston rings into the oil.

April 26th, 2012, 05:13 AM	#128
azwillnj ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: Greencastle Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: 57	I got it to idle again last night.. Turns out there was so much fuel in the cylinders that the plugs were coated with fuel to a point where they were unable to spark... Such a simple, dumb thing. Put the plugs back in and same symptoms as before, chokes out and dies as soon as you touch the throttle... (AHHHHHH!!!!!!) I started messing with the idle mixing screw to see if that made any difference, I played with all different combinations of screw position from .5-3 turns out and all combinations of throttle position/choke position and still nothing. As a last resort I turned the mixing screws all the way closed to see what would happen and to my surprise the bike still idled... I called my Dad and he was as stumped as I was until we started talking about it.. This is the theory we have come up with: The pilot jet/needle is worn out and not seating properly. When the idle circuit was essentially closed by the mixing screw in my last test, enough fuel was leaking through the butterfly breather hole to keep it running. In all cases when you start opening the butterfly/throttle you are letting extremely rich air into the cylinder which is choking it out because the main jet is continually leaking. This is such a small defect that it would go unnoticed after f.i.v.e. cleanings of the carbs.. After a little googling: http://www.factorypro.com/tech/needle_jet_wear.html I bought a FactoryPro stage 1&3 jet kit last night, it is suppose to arrive next week. I will update when I try it. Alex.

April 26th, 2012, 05:26 AM	#129
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	Mystery solved! Now all you have to do is replace the soft brass parts of the carbs until you get control over the mixture. It's going to run great after you replace and adjust them. This reminds me of something my Dad told me a long, long time ago while we were working on an old Honda. He said that the brass parts of a carb will actually erode under useage and certain other conditions, and when this happens you end up with a carb that you can clean and adjust all you want and still never get it to run. Strange that this appears to be the problem with a relatively young (2007) EX-250 but I guess that all it would take is for your particular bike to get some badly cast brass bits installed in it. Sort of a "factory lemon" carb situation that ended up in premature wear.

May 3rd, 2012, 05:09 AM	#131
azwillnj ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: Greencastle Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: 57	Jet kit came, I installed everything like the kit wanted except I did NOT drill out the slide holes, as stated in the faq.ninja250 (thoughts on this?). Put the needle on position #4 from the top and used DJ098 as the instructions stated for stage 1 with an aftermarket exhaust. Re-assembled everything and the bike started right up! Even responded perfectly while warm! BUT.. then I tried to ride it. As soon as you engage a gear and put the engine under load it exhibits similar behavior as before. It's very difficult to get it past 3000 rpm. I managed to crank the throttle open, over rev it to about 6k and slowly let the clutch out to get it moving and tried the 'Italian tuneup'. I got it up to about 50mph (felt great!) while keeping the revs over 5k and revving the piss out of it in each gear. But as soon as I came to a stop it would exhibit the same symptoms. It seems as though it has tons of trouble revving between about 3k and 5k and at this point I think it has to be a jetting/needle tuning thing. I didn't have a lot of time yesterday so the only other thing I tried was to read the spark plugs and adjust the needle position. I had wiped the right plug down last week when I re-assembled everything so it was fresh before this. When pulled after my ~5min ride they were black indicating a rich condition. I pulled the needles out and moved the stops to #3 from the top (closing the holes more) and it didn't seem to do anything. Today after work I am going to move the stop to position #5 from the top and see what happens.. unless someone has a better suggestion. What about drilling the slide hole out? It could be bogging at those rpm's because the slides are coming up too fast. The increased size of that hole could fix that. Why is it stated in the faq's to not drill it out? As for the main jet, It seems to be fine to redline so I don't think I need to change that, but I am not really sure. This is the first time I have tuned a carb and the first time I have ridden this bike/any bike. Here is the reference on the jet sizes: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Dynojet...zes_conversion Alex.

May 3rd, 2012, 05:45 AM	#132
g21-30 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Sam Location: Northern Virginia Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R 2009 Posts: A lot.	^^I too have an aftermarket complete exhaust with the K&N reusable air filter and ONLY used the DynoJet needles set in the 3rd position. Bike runs great. My personal thoughts are you should NOT drill the slides and you should not install pods, rather use the factory filter setup or the K&N look alike. I don't remember if you have pods. If you do, you're getting TOO MUCH air and this keeps the engine from reving over 5K. Check with Richard at Race Bike Rentals and see how he sets up his bikes. I think you will be surprised.

May 3rd, 2012, 06:16 AM	#133
davenay67 ninjette.org member Name: Dave Location: Lisle Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2003 Goldwing GL1800, 2002 Ninja 250, 2001 VFR800, 1999 Ducati 996 Posts: 107	Those cylinder compression test numbers are low, and the 30psi difference is not a good sign. Was the compression gauge a push-on style or did it have an adaptor that screwed into the spark plug tunnels..?? I'm not suggesting that this has anything to do with the poor running of the engine when it's warmed up, but those numbers would worry me a bit.

May 3rd, 2012, 06:30 AM	#134
azwillnj ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: Greencastle Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: 57	It screwed into the spark plug hole, and after a valve readjustment it was, and is now 190psi on cyl 1 and 195psi on cyl 2.

May 3rd, 2012, 07:08 PM	#140
azwillnj ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: Greencastle Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: 57	http://faq.ninja250.org/images/f/fc/...ETOR_PARTS.png 16017, I thought it was press fit into the carb in the main jet hole? Can It just fall out and be forgotten when the previous owner cleans the carbs?

May 4th, 2012, 07:58 AM	#145
gilmorec61 ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Newnan, G.A. Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 347	I honestly cant tell you for sure if there in their or not, but it looks like they are missing. Take a picture looking directly down the main jet holes and we should be able to tell.

May 4th, 2012, 08:00 AM	#146
gilmorec61 ninjette.org guru Name: Chris Location: Newnan, G.A. Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 347	Yeah man, your missing those. Get them back in and tell us how it runs.

May 4th, 2012, 08:56 AM	#149
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	Holy crap... 1 and a half months, a 4 page thread full of effort, doubt and frustration and now it comes out that you were trying to tune carbs that didn't have all of their parts? Priceless. You're telling us that both carbs are missing that part? I'm betting the bike will run great when you install all the required parts. I don't usually resort to Smilies but:

May 7th, 2012, 07:41 PM	#154
azwillnj ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: Greencastle Join Date: Mar 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: 57	IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!! I bought the carbs n4mwd found on eBay and had a friend pick them up for me over the weekend.. I have done this so many times I took the donor carbs apart and got the pieces out, took my carbs out, took them apart, adjusted the needles, put the new parts in, and put the bike back together in 31 mins, haha. It started right up, I went out for a ride and... IT ACTUALLY MOVES!!! Put about 10 miles on it. Only things I need to do now are tuning the carbs more and fixing the RPM signal on my Vapor, it was jumping all over the place, there's a doc on the faq's that explains how to fix them so I'm good there. The carb issue I could use come help with, there is a choppy part of the RPM band between about 4k and 6k rpm (im estimating as the tach doesn't work) I know its an issue with either the needle setting or the jet size. Also, when blipping the throttle it hangs for a second then drops back down, I think this is a sign of it being too lean if I remember correctly. Again, I am using the DJ098 jet and position #4 from the top on the needle. Thanks for all the help! Alex.

May 8th, 2012, 06:14 AM	#156
n4mwd ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: D Location: Palm Beach, FL Join Date: Oct 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250R, 2007 EFI Ninja 250R Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	Also, maybe you could post some photos of the actual bike. Now that you have the engine running good, maybe time to work on the tach. __________________________________________________ My Ninja Blog Proud member of ABATE.My NYC Road Rage documentary - CENSORED!

May 8th, 2012, 06:25 AM	#157
davenay67 ninjette.org member Name: Dave Location: Lisle Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2003 Goldwing GL1800, 2002 Ninja 250, 2001 VFR800, 1999 Ducati 996 Posts: 107	Revs that hang before dropping are typical of a lean mixture, put a few more miles on the bike and see if it still does this. If so, then you may need to tweak the mixture screws or look at your jetting. And +1 for the carb sync. My bike was running like crap, and when I removed the carbs I could visibly see the sync was off, which meant that it was WAY-WAY-WAY off..!! Put the carbs back on the bike after a thorough cleaning and valve adjustment, and after the sync (so nice and easy after coming from an I4 and I3) the motor just started purring. Now that you have a spare set of carbs, it would be good to have 1 set configured with stock jets, needles, etc....the spare you can use to experiment with tuning aspects.

June 16th, 2017, 02:46 PM	#159
A.J. ninjette.org guru Name: AJ Location: Green Valley, IL Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2001 Kawasaki Ninja 250r(SOLD) 2006 Kawasaki Ninja 250r full Muzzy(my pride and joy) Posts: 331	All these years later and this might be the best thing I've ever read. Wish this guy would check back in and let us know how the bike ran after that. I think this single thread might have saved me all the headache the OP went through. I hope anyway, just forwarded it to my mechanic. I love this forum!

June 16th, 2017, 03:11 PM	#160
Triple Jim Guy Who Enjoys Riding Name: Jim Location: North Carolina Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16	You have an exceptional mechanic if he is willing to read a thread like this.

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