SS Brake lines?

[Duvivr6]

Any company makes these for the nina 08+

I run these in all my cars and they make a huge difference in braking performance, havent seen them for the 250

[dmonaco05]

galfer makes em

[Banzai]

Galfer. Hands down the best set out there for stock replacement. cyclebrakes.com has about the best price and fastest shipping, too.

[Duvivr6]

Hmm I was searching cyclebrakes and i couldnt find it! their site is fricking confusing and complicated!!

Also I run ATE Blue DOT-4 on my cars, will it work on the 250?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Duvivr6

Hmm I was searching cyclebrakes and i couldnt find it! their site is fricking confusing and complicated!!

Call them.

[thebulbousone]

Spiegler.com ... Galfers are good but Spiegler have fittings that you can rotate to fit your application... go to their site... lots of info and products other than lines...

[Banzai]

...and Galfers are made specifically for each bike, both in length and fitting type so you'll never NEED to rotate fittings....or have another joint to worry about leaks.

[Mo1981]

Sportbikesolutions.com has them. I'm replacing my front line this weekend.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Broom]

i think i got mine off ebay for a pretty good price. i believe kneedraggers.com has them too.

it was a bitch to bleed the brakes after putting on a new line. maybe theres a trick we don't know. we had the professional vacuum pump and the reverse bleeder out and it took us a couple hours to get them right. i'd recommend letting the shop do it if you don't know what you're doing.

bleeding them under regular circumstances isn't too hard, but putting on fresh lines makes it tough i guess.

ps: you're probably fine just putting them on the front if you wanna save some money.

[noche_caliente]

Dan Kyle has the spieglers and Hard Racing does the galfers - back in January the two of them had a pricing war going on at kawiforums:
http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-250r...ml#post1503326

http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-250r...ml#post1503566

[TnNinjaGirl]

Originally Posted by Broom

ps: you're probably fine just putting them on the front if you wanna save some money.

I wouldn't put them on the back. I keep locking up my rear even under moderate braking situations. I guess it's from the fork dive. Anyone else having this problem?

[Snake]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

I wouldn't put them on the back. I keep locking up my rear even under moderate braking situations. I guess it's from the fork dive. Anyone else having this problem?

Yes I have the same problem. The rear on these bikes must be light.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Snake

Yes I have the same problem. The rear on these bikes must be light.

It has to do with braking technique and the way that you load the suspension under braking, which is something that is hard to master with this bike because of the springs in the front forks and the fact that there is more brake than really necessary on the rear.

Done properly, the rear will not lock up and the bike will squat under braking instead of nose diving.

Due to the weight balance and the fact that this bike is "overbraked" and "undersprung" for it's size/weight, it's easy to cause the front to nose dive and unload the rear wheel and cause lock up. Traditional methods of solving this issue, especially with new riders, is to put GG rated (instead of the HH rated stock) "black" compound rear pads, which is one way to prevent lock up.

Installing a stainless line on the rear will give you a tighter feel for what the rear brake is doing, just like the front will. If you have an unbalanced technique on the brakes and can't/won't unlearn it, then you will be dissapointed with a stainless rear line.

Larger bikes, with 600cc class bikes weighing about the same as ours, have a better overall weight distribution and better attention to tuning with the springs front and rear to both lessen nose dive and exert more force on the rear suspension to keep it planted better on the pavement. Also, their braking system is more appropriate for the size of the bike (weight and tire contact patch), so if you have problems with locking up the rear tire on the 250R, likely you'll be OK with a larger bike.

But technique is still the key!

[TnNinjaGirl]

Lesson time!! What is the proper braking technique?

[tjkamper]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

I wouldn't put them on the back. I keep locking up my rear even under moderate braking situations. I guess it's from the fork dive. Anyone else having this problem?

I have heavy right foot too. I do it occationally on most bikes. It really is a technique thing. Just remember if you lock it up when full breaking don't releaese the rear break, it can cause the bike to correct and through you out of control.

I don't ever have the problem with normal ridding, but if I am doing full maximum breaking, I will occationally lock up the rear wheel.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

I wouldn't put them on the back. I keep locking up my rear even under moderate braking situations.

There just for looks! Stock brake lines are so much better nowdays, compared to the crap they use to make.

[Duvivr6]

Originally Posted by Broom

i think i got mine off ebay for a pretty good price. i believe kneedraggers.com has them too.

it was a bitch to bleed the brakes after putting on a new line. maybe theres a trick we don't know. we had the professional vacuum pump and the reverse bleeder out and it took us a couple hours to get them right. i'd recommend letting the shop do it if you don't know what you're doing.

bleeding them under regular circumstances isn't too hard, but putting on fresh lines makes it tough i guess.

ps: you're probably fine just putting them on the front if you wanna save some money.

Did you order the custom made ones? that are really cheap, if you did can you let me know how long is the front and what fitting do we have?

thanks
Duvi

here's the link of what i'm talking about!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NINJA...Q5fAccessories

[ROADandTRACK]

Goodridge last longer and are less likely to seep. We have had Galfer weep on us more than we haven't had them weep. They look cooler though if you aren't racing.

Just measure the length and order the ends from Goodridge, or if you aren't sure about that they have kits too. For a racebike I will only use Goodridge.

[OldGuy]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

Lesson time!! What is the proper braking technique?

CB I know the books have all sorts of input but IMHO the best bet is get to parking lot and just practice. Because each of us weighs a different amount, our bikes are all just a little different (springs, shocks, brake pads, lines, etc), and trying to convey the meaning of "maximum rear break pressure without lockup" is awful hard; you just have to start trying things. For me I use a cone/chalk mark or something so I am always trying to stop from the same spot and can judge my improvement in stopping.

Start at a comfortable speed and begin. Right or wrong I have developed the habit of always starting my braking (normal or panic) with the rear brake and then applying front brake. For me and my bike that seems to settle the rear end down and allows me to modulate the front brake and prevent the nose dive you can get at 2 mph and front brake only. So far (knock on wood) I've only locked the rear end up once (that was during practice) and have not run out of stopping room. Granted I haven't been doing any panic stops from 60 mph but there have been some short (three-four car lengths) from 40-45 mph when a light has caught me.

[kazam58]

I locked up my rear once at something above 60mph. I wouldn't have known if I hadn't heard the squealing rubber. I've also locked it up practicing panic braking in a parking lot. I get the feeling I'm a bit heavy on the rear brake. I've heard, don't quote me on this, that you want a ratio of pressure, from front to rear, of about 70/30 while braking. I tend to use the rear brake a lot because a lot of my riding is commuting or around town. That way I save the front brake a little too.
I have a really hard time "feeling" my rear brake though. I'm guessing that just might be lack of experience, but if anyone has any pointers, let me know.

[Alex]

I guess now's as good a time as any for a contrarian opinion, so here goes... If you really want to maximize emergency braking, i.e. get the absolute shortest stops when the fecal matter hits the rotating blade, forget about the rear brake. Not because it doesn't matter, but because its abilities are dwarfed by the effective use of the front brake, and if you're not doing that correctly nothing you do with the rear will help a whit anyway. Please stay with me before immediately rushing to post a retort...

The vast majority of motorcyclists don't use enough front brake in hard stops. There's the old habits and improper training angle, where prior generations were taught "Don't touch the front brake, it will spit you off if you even graze it.", and there's also the legacy that many older bikes had extremely poor braking systems in general, requiring a mammoth squeeze on both front and rear just to get any reasonable braking power. But on a modern bike, (and our Ninjette is one of those, even if it's on the less-expensive side), the front brake has enough power to stop the wheel almost immediately from any speed the ninjette is traveling, and the front tires if properly inflated and warmed up have enough grip to make use of that braking power. So how do you stop the quickest? You squeeze the lever firmly, and as the weight transfers to the front of the bike you can squeeze it firmer and firmer as the tire gets even better grip on the pavement. In a panic some riders are prone to grabbing at the lever too quickly, and locking up the front tire. This happens not because the tires are bad, or because the brakes aren't strong enough, but because the weight transfer wasn't allowed to happen sufficiently before maximum braking pressure was applied.

How hard can you ultimately push that front brake? Hard enough that the rear tire is barely skimming the ground behind you. Look at any reasonably competitive motorcycle race, whether 200-lb 125cc two-strokes all the way to 400-lb literbikes and get a good look at what is happening in the maximum braking sections of the track. The rear wheel is barely on the pavement, if it's touching at all. This isn't a style thing, it's because the rider is braking at the absolute limit, putting as much force as possible from the front brake down to the tire and ultimately to the pavement. If there was any more front brake used, the bike is liable to go end over end. If there was less used, the bike wouldn't slow as quickly as it is. When all of this is happening, what can the rear brake do to help slow the bike? Answer - not much. So much weight is naturally on the front of the bike, that any meaningful slowing by the rear wheel is going to have a marginal effect on stopping distances, and in non-expert hands (or feet, I guess), is more likely to just lock the wheel than provide any help.

So is the rear brake useless? No. In street situations it can make for a more confident stop in non emergency situations. When you are 2-up there is more weight on the rear and in some cases using a more balanced split between front and rear brake works out well. Do I use the rear brake much on the street? Sometimes. I want to get some wear into those pads back there, and it's good to develop a feel for where the lockup point is on the rear tire.

So IMO, if you're trying to stop in that shortest of distances before slamming the rear end of the vehicle in front of you, and you've already decided that swerving isn't an option, you need to get that front tire braking as quickly as possible as soon as possible, and hold it right up against that limit. It's my opinion that doing that correctly is hard enough in an emergency situation without trying to also balance the pressure on the rear brake, which if you're doing the first part correctly isn't going to do a heck of a lot of good. Only after someone has completely mastered being able to bring the front up to the point of lockup over and over again, barely skimming the rear tire along the pavement, then I'd agree that some rear braking skills on top of that can help. But even in those cases, it is mostly used to balance the bike's attitude rather than shortening the stopping distances from a high-speed stop in a straight line.

Are there exceptions to this? Sure. A heavy long-wheelbase bike may be brought to the limit of the front brake/wheel/tire/pavement interface, and the rear wheel may still be on the pavement. In that case some rear brake will be helpful in slowing such a bike. An older bike that has a weak brake system in general that can't bring the front tire to its limits quickly or confidently enough? Sure, rear brake can be used there. I found that on a Triumph Bonneville that we had for awhile with a particularly low-buck front brake system. But our ninjette is not one of those exceptions. Front brake is more than powerful enough, tires are sticky enough, wheelbase is short enough, that hard braking can be done to the extent that it will start to lift the rear. So if you're not braking hard enough to do so, then you're giving up precious feet in stopping distance. And this can be done without bottoming the front forks on the new-gen ninjette, if your weight is somewhere in the ballpark of what kawi was expecting on this bike. On the pre-gens it gets a little trickier only because the front springs are so soft, that to get better braking the first necessary step is to stiffen up the front. On the 2nd-gens that will only be necessary as rider weight gets up there. Heck, to my knowledge the RaceBikeRentals trackbikes don't have stiffer springs up front, and they can be brought to max braking without bouncing off the stops with correct technique.

The problem with all this is that practicing it in a parking lot at 25 mph isn't particularly instructive. You may even convince yourself that a balance between front/rear brakes is the way to go for such a stop as it feels better, and there just isn't enough weight transfer to matter at those lower speeds. But when we're talking about higher speed (60+ mph) emergency stops, everything written above applies more and more.

146_0809_04_z+americans_in_motoGP+late_braking.jpg

Sorry for the novel, but this can be an interesting discussion, and I'm not sure if we've had it yet on this board...

[OldGuy]

Thanks Alex - a lot of good information crammed into one post. It also helped me realize that one of the things I wanted to communicate was that yes the front brake has the best and most stopping power but as we are learning to use that power we need to "modulate" the amount we are applying until maximum becomes second nature. It's like most of the things we learn about our bikes - it's all about feel and learning what that feeling is.

[Buffalony]

hmm. If a new rider is reading this PLEASE spend the money and take the time out to hang out in a local riders course (MSF MANYS). Basic braking technique is covered. From a 50yr+ riders mouth and a focus of the course, One of the the top bad habits by riders is NOT using the rear brake. His days were those of choppers without front brakes. He said that the majority of riders now are the opposite. They neglect to use the rear brake and both are needed together to stop most efficiently.

Alex I respect you and love the forum but man I read that post twice. Once as a rider with some time and once as a noob. Basically what I got from reading that precious of yours is "Don't bother with the rear brake" and "If you use the front brake a little you cant lock it up there after". Bad news for any rider to start with IMO.

The proper habit for a new rider to develop is to use both brakes locking neither. That way in ANY situation there isnt delay in focus on what your doing with the front then taking extra time to decide what to do with the rear or even if you should use it. Thats too much fiddling I agree. Which is why both brakes should be just an instant natural reaction.

In a real road driving situation where you cannot execute a swerve safely and timely and where you can only stop, using both brakes should be second nature. However remember: The sooner you apply the front brake the sooner you slow down.

A front tire lock up can occur at any speed at anytime, even if you do shift weight to the front tire to increase traction/grip, go ahead and squeeze it harder to see what happens.

Your advise coupled with the fact that shifting weight towards the front also increases steering sensitivity could turn out disasterous for that noob that squeezes their brake to hard after weight shifting and hitting a rough patch of road just because they thought it couldnt lock up after shifting the weight. So keep in mind after youve shifted weight that locking the front tire after shifting weight to the front can briefly increase chances of going down.

If you accidentally lock the rear at some point, leave it locked. If the front gets locked dont leave the front locked. Release and reapply the front brake smoothly and firmly and stay straight unless your SOOL.

Refering to the point about track riders braking so hard their rear barely has traction. Yes this is an exageration of whats going on while braking, but keep it in mind while braking and brake accordingly to speed. The more you you slow the more you apply the rear. Theyre riding a track at high speeds on track bikes usually using high end braking equip setting up to turn. + They dont want to lock up the rear before a turn especially if the rear wheel isnt aligned with the front. That would be inefficient racing. Believe they can lock up their front. Thats just skilled braking at work. Yes our brakes are very efficient.

As usual a couple of links for furthing reading on braking:
http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_9...ips/index.html

Pg.11 and 24:
http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Lib...tor_Manual.pdf

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/MotorcycleIntro2.html

[Alex]

Joe -

Read that sportrider article a little closer. Two key pieces of data that drive my point home. After multiple tries, braking distance by using the front brake alone was 151 feet. After multiple tries, braking distance by using the front brake along with the rear brake was 146 feet. In other words, with practice, and knowing exactly what was about to happen, adding the rear brake perfectly and not locking it up shaved 5 feet off of a 151 feet stopping distance. And if you check the date of that article, that's with 14-year old technology front tires on an ancient bandit, with significantly longer wheelbase than our ninjettes. The tires on the front of our ninjettes are stickier than what was available at that point, let alone the tires available on current larger sportbikes.

Know how much more distance is traveled if the rider does not approach the limits of the front brake? Much, much more than the 5 feet lost by not using the rear. It's not so much front brake good / back brake bad. It's the point I made in the first paragraph of my post above. The only time adding any rear brake will help much at all, is if you're already using the front as well as can be used in that particular situation. If you use only a portion of the front's capabilities, you've lost much, much more than you can ever gain back by adding any rear. It's just the nature of the beast with a short-wheelbase sportbike.

The MSF gets quite a bit right but IMO they preach some things that are only relevant for the 0-mile experience newbie and become less and less relevant once said newbie actually starts riding a bike at speed on the street. Best example is locking the rear. Are highsides good? No. Does anyone want to highside? No. If you lock the rear and the bike slews enough, then you let go of the brake, can you highside? Sure. But the MSF advice to then decide to hold the rear brake locked until you come to a complete stop so you can start again is asinine. Seems like a great idea in a parking lot, until you realize that stopping in the middle of traffic might not be such a great idea if Jane Soccermom happens to be blindly driving that SUV behind you. Good thing we narrowly avoided that highside just in time to be run over by said SUV. Of course you need to let the brake off before you come to a complete stop in most cases. And of course the way to do it is to make sure that the bike isn't that out of line when you gingerly let off some pressure on the rear brake. It's just those types of complications that focusing the vast majority of energy on getting the front brake right helps to avoid, and complications are not helpful in emergency situations.

What happens while braking on a track is not an exaggeration that has no bearing on the street. It's the exact same thing, a rider trying to slow the bike as quickly and as safely as possible while maintaining control of the bike. The dynamics are the same, and heck, the bikes are the same. The ninjette's front brake system has the power and feel to bring the wheel to maximum braking just as easily as any other sportbike on the track. Yes, it will start to fade after repeated hard stops in succession, but that's an entirely separate discussion.

Talk to any AFM/WERA/CCS club racers and find out how many of them use the rear brake consistently, and you may be surprised (or maybe not) to learn that the vast majority do not. Of course there are some who are spectacular at it and use it skillfully to help tighten cornering lines and otherwise adjust the attitude of the bike in particular portions of the track. But even they will be unlikely to use much at all, if any, when just scrubbing off massive speed in a straight line prior to a tight corner. There just isn't the leftover attention to focus on the rear brake when the front brake has 90+% of the load of the bike at that time, and the rear is being affected by multiple downshifts at the same time anyway.

[TnNinjaGirl]

I like your advice, Alex.

[M-Oorb]

This is a great thread and I'm learning a lot keep it goingggg
Posted via Mobile Device

[TnNinjaGirl]

ok... so what about body positioning if one uses front brakes only? Lean forward? Back? Center gravity?

[Duvivr6]

Wow awesome info guys!!


RoadandTrack - I Use Goodrige in my ///M3 I Auto X and Solo1 with and they perform extremely well never let me down!

Anyone have any info on the lenght and fitting the 08-09 ninja uses for brake lines?

[gizmogamez]

I find myself useing the front berak alot more now on the new gen bike, where I was useing the rear alot more on the pre gen (i had a 2000 ZZR).
If I had to take a guess I would say it feels like my weight is forward more and then shifts forward more when breaking on the new gen alot more where I felt like my weight was back more on my pre gen.
I have locked up my rear tire alot on the new gen, and only did once or twice on my pre.
I don't do much 2up riding so I don't often have the added weight on the back but I do find it helps with rear breaking when I do have it there.
I find that I just have to get used to the feeling of "being thrown forward" that you get when you go hard on the front break. I think it's when I feel that and then push on the rear break in an effort to let up on the front that I then have lock up problems. Maybe something better then the stock IRC's would help as well, but I'm not replacing them untill they acytually need it and i'm only at 3200km with them.
I'm thinking of going with the SS break lines, but it's mostly just for the looks, I really like the grean and black ones my friend has on his bike, and think it would look sick on my little green gremlin.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

ok... so what about body positioning if one uses front brakes only? Lean forward? Back? Center gravity?

I'm not sure that body positioning is terribly different no matter the braking technique; if a rider is braking at close to maximum, they will feel thrown forward no matter what. Some folks scooch back a bit immediately before in preparation, and that may help a little bit in terms of managing the weight transfer. Using your knees on the tank to have hold of the bike rather than allowing all of your body weight to be pushed down your arms to the bars can help for some folks as well. Not so much in improving braking distances, but by allowing you to still feel what the front end is doing and make small adjustments as needed compared to if your arms were completely stiff and jammed against the bars.

Originally Posted by gizmogamez

I find that I just have to get used to the feeling of "being thrown forward" that you get when you go hard on the front break. I think it's when I feel that and then push on the rear break in an effort to let up on the front that I then have lock up problems. Maybe something better then the stock IRC's would help as well, but I'm not replacing them untill they acytually need it and i'm only at 3200km with them.

If you are braking hard enough to feel that "thrown forward" feeling, the last thing you want to do is increase rear braking right at that time to try and take away that feeling; you'll lock up the rear every time, as you're now experiencing. The more the bike is tipped up on the front while it is slowing, the less rear we're able to use, not more. IMO it has nothing to do with the tires in this case, it's all technique.

[Broom]

don't forget that the 250's have a lot of engine breaking too. you can downshift while you're hard on the front breaks and use that as your rear break... modulate with the clutch to keep from locking up the rear.

[Broom]

oh... and i do believe that using the rear break on the street is a good idea. there are way too many occasions where grip might not be good enough to rely only on the front to stop (like oily intersections for example) where you really need the control and stopping ability of both brakes. its just good habit to use them both without even thinking about it.

on the track i don't use the rear unless i'm on a bike with weak front brakes.

[Alex]

I'm not completely at odds with your first statement, there's definitely some good thoughts there. In more slippery or iffy conditions, being able to use both brakes confidently isn't a bad idea. You can't get the full weight transfer if you're stopping at a slower rate, and this means that at max-braking in those conditions the rear wheel may still find itself on the ground and allow for a little help in the slowing process. But if you find yourself locking up the rear, it means that a bunch of things are going wrong. Too much pressure on the rear brake, of course, and a high likelihood that not enough braking is being done by the front.

Also, the assumption can't be that the street is always going to be slippery, or you won't be stopping as soon as you could or should be. Clean dry pavement is clean dry pavement, should be identified as such immediately, and can be used to bring us to a halt right quick as necessary.

I've just seen so many instances first-hand, where newer riders get spooked coming up to a turn, hammer both brakes equally, lock the rear, and go straight off the road at speed with a 100+ foot skid from the rear tire. When the entire bike could likely have been brought to a stop even before leaving the road with correct technique.

Here's one on Highway 36 where a friend locked the rear, went straight off the road, and narrowly missed sliding over a 100 foot cliff to the right of that guard rail. Couple problems here. Corner entry speed too high for current skills, and poor braking technique locking the rear and causing the bike to lose directional control:





Here's another one from just a few months back on one of our sunday rides. Notice the skid mark over the double yellow from the rear tire as the bike goes straight off the road.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Broom

don't forget that the 250's have a lot of engine breaking too. you can downshift while you're hard on the front breaks and use that as your rear break... modulate with the clutch to keep from locking up the rear.

Thats what I do! It's like a poor mans slipper clutch too

[Buffalony]

I was taught to squeeze the clutch in when hard emergency brking. Taught wrong again.lol

[zartan]

This is a fantastic thread!! What I am here for. Thanks everyone.

I think the rear line works just fine stock for regular street riding. It would be fun bling though. Oh but the hassel of bleeding etc..

I was too heavy on the rear break the first season I traded over to the 08
( the 99 braked differently and also had that 16" front tire so it was all and all different.)I also ride forward abit.

I had to lock up the new bike 2 times last year. Once for a boat with no freakin brake lights going down hill coming to a complete stop. I was far back but at 60 on the highway you catch up quick It handled it just fine. Nice smooth forward stop with a little screeching from me and my tire.



The other was a dumb move on my part surprised by a dog and over reacted. That was the closest I ever came to crashing on the street in 25 years. Started to low side then switched to starting to high side, then the Ninja Angels just straightened me out.
For the life of me can not figure out if I braked the rear too hard or let off. It was too quick. I am thinking after reading all of this I let off the rear too quickly. I always use tons of front brake...

ALWAY's working to improve my technique!! thanks folks.

[wyckedflesh]

Best improvement I have gotten in the ability of my stock front brake?

Better fork springs.

I can brake hard enough, and with enough confidence in what the bike is going to do, to make the front tire howl without locking up, or going up into a stoppie. Empty parking lots are a GREAT place to practice hard stops, increasing the speed gradually.

I do plan on replacing the front brake line for SS, and do plan on the Speigler over the Galfer, because if I run clip-ons for trackdays, its easier to swap the controls back and forth.

[ally99]

Wow, learned a lot from this thread! Thanks all!! Heading out to practice some things now.

[kazam58]

I was browsing online stores yesterday and saw that HEL also makes SS lines for our bikes. Does anyone have any experience with them?

[diy]

Great thread! Learned a lot.