Iron Ninjas!! Battle of the 250s!

[TnNinjaGirl]

CC, as a good looking guy and an obvious expert in the speed department, does a certain hair style help with the ability to go faster? On top of that, we all "know" green bikes are faster, say if one dyed their hair blue, or even green, do you think there would be an apparent increase in speed?

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

On top of that, we all "know" green bikes are faster, say if one dyed their hair blue, or even green, do you think there would be an apparent increase in speed?

There you go, encouraging kkim again!!!

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by kkim

no, but I've got to hedge my bet somehow so I can come back to say you're completely wrong!

I figured with the mods I've done, I should be able to just keep up with him, if they are indeed faster.

if I do beat him, I'll know how effective my mods have been, at least.

does your friend's bike have the ultimate mod - green?

[CC Cowboy]

Green Rocks, Green hair rocks, Green Bikes rock, just don't sneeze.

[Broom]

on the racing forums, theres talk of making it legal to use the new gen forks, triples and wheels on the old gen. the theory is that will even the two out pretty well.

[komohana]

Originally Posted by kkim

Thanks Steve, for agreeing to compare and even swap bikes to verify results.

mahalo, brah!

there aren't many people i'd relinquish control of my cycle to....in fact, i could probably count them on one hand....using ONE finger on that hand mind ya!

you're welcome bruddah!

[archetype]

It's too cold here or I'd go check.
Maybe a month or two, I'll report back.
I doubt the performance 0-60 is that far apart.
As I've said before, they are really two completely different bikes.
The 07 is a perfect fit for my wife at 5' 2" and the 09 fits my son at 5' 10".
The 07 is more of a street cruiser ( sport ) and 09 is more of a supersport.
The 09 definitely has more power on the bottom end and begs to be throw into a corner.
I can say this, I never wanted to ride the 05 or the 07, but I really do like to play around on the 09.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by archetype

The 09 definitely has more power on the bottom end and begs to be throw into a corner.

with the new exhaust system coming out from Area P for the pregens, the two gens should stack up pretty evenly powerwise on the low and midrange w/ the top end nod going to the pregens.

damn, steve... stop working so much OT so you won't be able to afford that kit!!!

[jonb08]

This thread is awesome. Anybody in the Long Island area with a new-gen 250 want to take on my pre-gen in a straight line battle? I'll definitely say that the new-gen has a huge advantage in handling. I'm actually concerned that the new tires I'm putting on might strain the suspension too much. I really push this thing to it's limits. ha ha

[sombo]

Originally Posted by kkim

with the new exhaust system coming out from Area P for the pregens, the two gens should stack up pretty evenly powerwise on the low and midrange w/ the top end nod going to the pregens.

damn, steve... stop working so much OT so you won't be able to afford that kit!!!

You guys do realize that Yoshimira has had a similar system out for years? My 1994 250 has a full Yoshi 2into1 exhaust put on by a previous owner. It does NOT sound like most other 250's I've heard. Sounds deeper if you ask me. I'll have to find a decent camera and mic to show ya. Also it's plenty fast for me.

[kkim]

maybe so, but they never offered it in conjunction w/pod filters, airbox delete tray and jetting already matched to their system did they? not very similar to me.

[sombo]

Originally Posted by kkim

maybe so, but they never offered it in conjunction w/pod filters, airbox delete tray and jetting already matched to their system did they? not very similar to me.

After reading the Areap thread their kit doesn't come with that either. It was only done for that testing purpose. From the looks of things it comes with the exhaust and a your choice of can along with detailed instructions on the proper setup of a separate Dynojet carb kit. I could be wrong of course. Either way both systems are killer and Yoshi is just as good of a company as AreaP is for the Kawasakis.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by sombo

After reading the Areap thread their kit doesn't come with that either. It was only done for that testing purpose. From the looks of things it comes with the exhaust and a your choice of can along with detailed instructions on the proper setup of a separate Dynojet carb kit. I could be wrong of course. Either way both systems are killer and Yoshi is just as good of a company as AreaP is for the Kawasakis.

from that thread...

Priced around $4-500, it’s a value unlike any other. And they are considering an introductory special—if you purchase the Dynojet Kit at the same time as the exhaust system, they will include the aluminum battery box, filter pods and crankcase breather for free ($115.00 value)!

My point was that the R&D was done using those pieces as an integral part of an entire, complete system. To my knowledge, Yosh never bothered doing any of that. Correct me if that's wrong.

Yosh is a great company, but they did nowhere the R&D on the 250 pregens that AP has. AP has set the bar a bit higher than any previous manufacturer in providing a complete, properly tuned system, from intake, to jetting to exhaust for the customer.

[SteveL]

These are the specs of the European fuel injected 250R how do they compare with the US model and the older model. Sorry it’s in French but I’m sure you can figure it out.

Steve


Cylindrée cm³ 249 cm³
Alésage x course 62,0 x 41,2 mm
Taux de compression 11,6:1
Distribution DOHC, 8 soupapes
Puissance maxi 33 ch (24 kW) à 11 000 tr/min
Couple maxi 2,24 kgf m (22 Nm) à 8 200 tr/min
Type d'alimentation Injection : 2 x ø 28 mm (Keihin) Double papillo

[miks]

haha, some words look and sound funny

Why is it that Europe gets a FI model? When America and Australia don't get one

[sombo]

Kawasaki kept it carbed in the states to keep the cost down. They did FI in Europe to meet the higher emission standards that the carbed version wouldn't be able to meet. At least that's the answer they gave back in 08.

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by Alex

Every time. Heck, even with identical motors the old gen would still win just because of the weight difference. 30 pounds is a big difference on a relatively light bike.

Is that weight difference real? Some reviews I have read suggested Kawasaki under reported the old model's real weight. Has anyone actually put both versions on a scale with identical amounts of fluids?

Tim

[Alex]

Originally Posted by mcteague

Is that weight difference real?

The weight difference, at least most of it, is most definitely real. Larger wheels/tires, larger rotor, more coolant capacity, much heavier exhaust with cats, all add up. I can't think of any component on the new gens that's lighter than the old gens, but there are quite a few components that have gained weight.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by SteveL

Cylindrée cm³ 249 cm³
Alésage x course 62,0 x 41,2 mm
Taux de compression 11,6:1
Distribution DOHC, 8 soupapes
Puissance maxi 33 ch (24 kW) à 11 000 tr/min
Couple maxi 2,24 kgf m (22 Nm) à 8 200 tr/min
Type d'alimentation Injection : 2 x ø 28 mm (Keihin) Double papillo

From the US service manual:

Type: 4-stroke, DOHC, 2-cylinder
Cooling System: Liquid-cooled
Bore And Stroke: 62.0× 41.2 mm (2.5 × 1.6 in.)
Displacement: 249 cm³ (15.2 cu in.)
Compression Ratio: 11.6
Maximum Horsepower: 23.4 kW (31.8 PS) @11 000 r/min (rpm),
Maximum Torque: 22.0 N·m (2.24 kg·m, 16.2 ft·lb) @9 500
Carburetion System: Carburetor, Keihin CVK 30× 2

[SteveL]

Originally Posted by Alex

From the US service manual:

Type: 4-stroke, DOHC, 2-cylinder
Cooling System: Liquid-cooled
Bore And Stroke: 62.0× 41.2 mm (2.5 × 1.6 in.)
Displacement: 249 cm³ (15.2 cu in.)
Compression Ratio: 11.6
Maximum Horsepower: 23.4 kW (31.8 PS) @11 000 r/min (rpm),
Maximum Torque: 22.0 N·m (2.24 kg·m, 16.2 ft·lb) @9 500
Carburetion System: Carburetor, Keihin CVK 30× 2

The only significant difference is the rpm at which max torque is produced, 1300 higher on the none fuel injected model. I would have thought that a different cam would be needed to produce such a big difference.

Steve.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by sombo

I could be wrong of course. Either way both systems are killer and Yoshi is just as good of a company as AreaP is for the Kawasakis.

As KKim pointed out, the Area-P comes as a complete system including the crankcase breather, jets, etc. It also comes with instructions to tune the bike properly.

Whereas Yoshi is concerned, it is not comparable to Area-P, in truth. I am sure that Yoshi makes a quality product line, but the raw engineering, effort and time that Area-P spent on squeezing out every bit of horsepower out of the Ninja 250 remains unmatched. And getting maximum power out of a tiny engine is extraordinarily difficult.

This type of product development cost/benefit means that unless you are a fanatic to detail and obsessed with achieving the maximum power for the sheer challenge, a company is not going spend the money to develop an exhaust of this caliber for a 250.

Btw, the Area-P power output data is public and freely available to anyone.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

The weight difference, at least most of it, is most definitely real. Larger wheels/tires, larger rotor, more coolant capacity, much heavier exhaust with cats, all add up. I can't think of any component on the new gens that's lighter than the old gens, but there are quite a few components that have gained weight.

They also added larger frame structures to the rear swingarm and frame to stiffen it up. Steel weighs a lot.

[P1NDLESK1N]

While on the highway I have no problems passing cars with ease, as I'm almost always cruising around 9k rpm and can easily open up to 12 or 13k for a quick acceleration.

Is there that much of a difference between the two's powerbands?

Would it be a little harder to pass cars on the highway with the newgen?

[Cedilla]

I have no problem passing cars on the hiway, in fact I never get passed unless im giving my throttle hand a break.

[P1NDLESK1N]

Do you find that if your already around 80mph indicated, you still have that extra power to speed up?

[ScorpionNinja]

Originally Posted by Alex

Roughly 30 more pounds, a little less power, and more accurate measurement probably make up the bulk of the difference. Also, on such a moderately powered bike, the difference between a 120-lb rider and a 200-lb rider has a huge impact on acceleration times, so who knows who was at the controls for each run.

I was 182 lbs. when i first got my 250 this April 09'.
Im now 165 lbs. and ive Noticed my MPG is better.
Taking it ratehr easy, 55MPH city riding to work...
@ 182 lbs. 57-62 MPG
@165 lbs. 62-74 MPG

(shortshifting 4-5k and or 5-6k sometimes)

[shift_6]

Originally Posted by jonb08

This thread is awesome. Anybody in the Long Island area with a new-gen 250 want to take on my pre-gen in a straight line battle? I'll definitely say that the new-gen has a huge advantage in handling. I'm actually concerned that the new tires I'm putting on might strain the suspension too much. I really push this thing to it's limits. ha ha

where in LI are you?

[Cedilla]

Originally Posted by P1NDLESK1N

Do you find that if your already around 80mph indicated, you still have that extra power to speed up?

Yeah it pulls strong all the way up to about 95, then it sort of crawls up to 100, with a tail wind in will crawl up to 105, these speeds are all indicated, the main thing slowing it down is drop in power after about 11k.

[istreefitty]

what I dont understand is why kawasaki didnt update the 500 over the 250 here in america. I mean the weight difference and stance are not too much different...but the powertrain difference is increadible. The throttle is just as forgiving, only it is not SUPER forgiving in 6th gear (like our ninjette). And cmon guys how many of you all would have opted for the 500 over the 250 if it were engineered as well as the new gen (new gen owners of course). I know somewhat about the rules abroad, but here alot of what steers away potentially better riders is the displacement. Dont get me wrong I love my ninjette and it fits my 0 interstate driving to a tee, but I think that HI riding is the exception to the rule.

[Cedilla]

The Ninja 650 is supposed to fill the void from the 500, if they updated the 500 then they would have 2 bikes competing in the same market.
If I could get my hands on a cheap used 500 I would jump all over it, but most of them on craigslist are selling for around 4k.

[sombo]

They did it because the 250 has out sold every bike in Kawasaki's lineup for several years in a row. The 500 is a great bike, but it never sold anywhere near the numbers that the 250 has. It just makes more sense to improve an outdated best seller then update a bike that has not had that great of sales numbers. Also many consider the 650 to have been the replacement for the 500. Did Kawasaki intend for it to be that? Most likely not.

To be honest, no I would not have gone for the 500 even if it had been re-engineered. I think the ninjette is just fine even for the roads and highways here in Florida. I've had absolutely no issues keeping up and even passing most of the traffic on Interstate 4 here in Orlando. I've had my 1995 ninja up to 95mph (indicated) with more on tap to go if I had the nerve. And this is where the roads are all flat with crazy local and foreign drivers because of it being the tourist capital of the world.

Also keep in mind the price, ease of maintenance, fuel economy, and aftermarket following the 250 has enjoyed for years and continues to enjoy. I don't mean to be rude istreefitty, but you sometimes seem like you almost want to follow the stereotypical young punk mentality of a bigger, faster, more powerful bike without gaining experience. I'm glad that you chose to get a 250, join our world, and learn how to ride on a more controlled bike. I just don't think you fully appreciate all that the 250 has to offer to not only to new riders but to older riders who don't need the super powerful bikes to be happy on the roads.

Again, I apologize istreefitty if I offended you. Just letting you know that some of your posts make it sound like you are on the fence with how you feel about the ninjette. I hope you continue to ride the ninjette and stay in our community so you can take full advantage and truly appreciate what both we and this bike can offer. Happy riding to you!

[gizmogamez]

I love my new gen, I had a pre gen before and it was a great bike, but It was alos a zzr model so it had a few upgrades to the tires, suspention and a few other things. I find that my new gen is much better in the corners.
As for needing more cc, I don't really think it's needed. I ride my bike to work whenever I can (45min - 1hour) and avg speed is between 130-145kmph, I don't have any problems at these speeds with moving through traffic or anything like that.

[ScorpionNinja]

Id love to RACE a pre-gen, in a heads up vs race!

i think ive only seen 1 on the road around here, i did see one parked for Sale up north during my camping trip.

if anyone near me in Mi. would like to get together and do this, let me know!

I used to drag race @ detroit dragway with my Monte Carlo SS, back in the day. (summer they tore it down... afew weeks b4)

I know of afew good spots for dragracing around my area, where there isnt any traffic, Cops dunno about them, no ppl around in danger! just you and machine... and a heavy foot/throddle hand.

Fun fun fun! anyone?

[sombo]

Originally Posted by ScorpionNinja

Id love to RACE a pre-gen, in a heads up vs race!

i think ive only seen 1 on the road around here, i did see one parked for Sale up north during my camping trip.

if anyone near me in Mi. would like to get together and do this, let me know!

I used to drag race @ detroit dragway with my Monte Carlo SS, back in the day. (summer they tore it down... afew weeks b4)

I know of afew good spots for dragracing around my area, where there isnt any traffic, Cops dunno about them, no ppl around in danger! just you and machine... and a heavy foot/throddle hand.

Fun fun fun! anyone?

OOOH OOOOH OOOOH................ NOT ME!!!! :P

Sorry I just had to. I would accept, however, I live in Florida, so that's not possible.

[Cedilla]

The only thing Ive raced on my 250 was a modded 125cc dirtbike, and I won.

[sombo]

I raced my friend in his 85 Mustang GT from light to light once and I think I had him by like a hair.

[coffeecandy]

This thread reminds me of the civic versus corolla thread. Both are slow cars that is really meant for one thing, Commuting. The only difference is that people can throw more money into these bikes because they cost dirt cheap and can be modified cheaply.

Its really upsetting to me to know that this bike is probably one of the best choices for new riders or else there are plenty of other faster bikes for about the same price like a used fuel injected sv650 or a used fuel injected honda cbr600, or ninja 500. For the choice of a new Carburetor'ed ninja 250 for 4k or a used fuel injected sv650...its really a buyers choice...

I'm not saying that this bike isn't a blast to ride cause it can be but for the price...there are other options.

Personal I like the look of the 2nd generation as they put a lot of R&D (which they really didn't but just copied the newer styling era) and put it on the go. I feel bad that the second generation ninja's because they weigh more, have less hp to meet emissions and cost more. The Lighting of this gen is way better and probably better for the rider and those driving around the bike.

The 1st generation ninja 250 look like something in the 80s and guess what...they were made in the 80's and still the choice for new riders. I would just take a guess that the seats are more comfy and the seating position looks way more upright versus the 2nd gen 250's.

Overall the buying point is who likes which style of bike because the engine means nothing if it were made by the same maker. If there were a side by side comparison the 1st gen 250 would wins hands down. why? because it use to cost 2k when they were first made and then up till 2007 they were 3k. Would you pay 4k for the a different model that looked better, had less hp, and weigh more but has better suspension and tires? thats like saying I would like to pay for a lotus over a toyota MR-spyder which some people do but realistically if you can afford a 45k car..you can pretty much afford anything. An toyota mr-spider is practically the same car which does have the same engine as a lotus and cost 20k less. But hey, if you're made of money...blow it out of any hole ya know?

I think this would be a good time to say get a used 2001 or newer ninja 250 for 1k to 2k. Sell the ninja 250 for 1k to 2k after you put about 20k+ miles on it and get a used sv650 for 3.5k or a used cbr600 for 3.5k or a used ninja 650 for about 3.5k. These bikes are faster and more agile...

[istreefitty]

I really wish I had more time to answer all of what you said, but I have to go to work soon. I agree with most of what you said, but your comparisons sucked. I think what you meant to say instead of a civic vs corolla is something like an S2000 and a WRX (14 sec 1/4 mile times). As for the MR-S and the Lotus, you could not be any more wrong (they are the same car if you count having 4 wheels, being a 2 seater, having a spare tire, ect). They have the same block, ie the toyota zz engine, but could not be any more different. I have owned a MR-S and driven a Lotus and wow big difference. It would be like saying the 4.8 Mustang GT is the same as the Cobra (which it isnt btw). I think you should do some more research before making the comparison there

[sombo]

I gotta agree with michael on this one. I'd say it's more like the difference between a Chrysler car and it's Dodge equivalent. The Chrysler's are usually thousands more simply for being considered "more luxurious" then the Dodge's despite using all the same core components.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by Alex

2008 is a better bike in just about every way, truly. All except for straightline performance. In a perfect world, I'd marry the prior-gen motor into a new-gen everything else. But if it was really a perfect world, maybe bump it up to 16k redline and 40 hp while we're at it.

Uh oh, Alex is going to change the cams now!!!

Maybe you could get someone to design a kit that ups the cc's to 300 and increases compression ratio. That would be a fun mod.