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Old September 15th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #1
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During an emergency situation, will you steer in the right direction?

A well known survival reaction for street riding is steering the handlebar away from the danger.

That will only cause the bike to turn towards the danger, due to the counter-steering effect.

Well before that emergency moment arrives, frequently practice the following avoiding maneuver:

1) Look into an escape path, turning your head rather than only your eyes.

2) Lean your upper body in the direction (left or right) of your selected escape path.

3) Simultaneously push on that side of the handlebar.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #2
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #3
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i practice avoiding danger every time i get to a cross walk. I wait till the bare minimum of time and then go inbetween the painted lines
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #4
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I'll probably pick the path that **** cans me into a tree or rock or pole. It's how I do.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #5
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Just look where you want to go. The rest will work out.

Also practice emergency swerves often.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #6
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on my way home, there is a long street that has man hole covers littered all around my lane, i always practice counter steering to avoid them, getting closer and closer to them each time and still being able to avoid them at different speeds. The cagers probably think im drunk
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Old September 15th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #7
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on my way home, there is a long street that has man hole covers littered all around my lane, i always practice counter steering to avoid them, getting closer and closer to them each time and still being able to avoid them at different speeds. The cagers probably think im drunk
The po po will, I got pull over doing that.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #8
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The po po will, I got pull over doing that.
orly? did u get a ticket or anything?
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Old September 15th, 2012, 08:45 PM   #9
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No, he was cool about it but told me to find a parking lot instead.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 07:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
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The po po will, I got pull over doing that.
I got pulled over also practicing counter steering on our rode with no one around and next thing I know there he is -- he had this big smirk on his face and said "I bet you don't have a license to drive that thing", I said "yes sir I do" and handed it to him. You could see the look of disappointment on his face, he wanted to write me up so bad. Now I just wait till I am totally out of the way and I see nothing but trees before I try.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 07:45 AM   #11
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I got pulled over for the slight swerve for the smidsy too. It sucked cop was more of a a*s that time but still no ticket. I would do it exactly the same if I had to do it over.

Back to the topic at hand... How do you train yourself to NOT fixate?

For me on the track it's focus. Even after being bumped, rubbed, passed closely, ect.. I am totally focused on my next reference point. At this point I have bailed to the grass 3 times to avoid a rider/bike go down directly in front of me at track speed. The other 7 or so times a rider has gone down in front of me has been uneventful, a slight countersteer to alter line and ride as normal.

For the street I kinda find myself falling back to what worked for me in the dirt while riding through the forest. That log, that branch, that rut will all put me down. I see it, react, find an escape and visually lock onto it and ride on. I find the street very similar, so many uncontrolled factors...

What do riders do without that dirt experience?
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Old September 16th, 2012, 08:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
.........For the street I kinda find myself falling back to what worked for me in the dirt while riding through the forest. That log, that branch, that rut will all put me down. I see it, react, find an escape and visually lock onto it and ride on. I find the street very similar, so many uncontrolled factors...


Yes, that is the point of this thread.

Most riders have been car drivers first, and that is dangerous regarding false sense of safety and lower attention level.

That new rider has gone through a MSF course, which explained what to do during an emergency situation.

That new rider has an easy ride for a while until that day, when a car crosses the path of the motorcycle.

From my own experience, I do know that at that moment nobody can think what end of the handlebar to push; if the situation is bad enough to endanger your life, the conscious brain is overridden buy the unconscious brain.

That part of the brain will decide what to do for survival (unfortunately not always the correct thing; like grabbing a handful of front brake just to lock the tire and fall): only through constant practice of the proper evasive maneuvers, that rider may have a chance of having an effective survival reaction.
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Old September 16th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynjay View Post
Just look where you want to go. The rest will work out.

Also practice emergency swerves often.
This works fine enough, kinda generic but works... Especially if your looking far enough ahead.

Could it be added to this comment to look far enough ahead to allow it to "work itself out"? Could it also be added that how far ahead you look is relative to the speed of travel or your relative skill at ebraking?

Think about it.....
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Old September 24th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #14
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What do riders do without that dirt experience?
I had a few years experience as a bicycle messenger. That translates very well. living in the city i play the pothole /manhole cover swerve game to keep on my toes
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Old September 25th, 2012, 07:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
This works fine enough, kinda generic but works... Especially if your looking far enough ahead.

Could it be added to this comment to look far enough ahead to allow it to "work itself out"? Could it also be added that how far ahead you look is relative to the speed of travel or your relative skill at ebraking?

Think about it.....
It doesn't really matter how far ahead you are looking. Look where you want to go and the bike will head that direction.

Ex. I was on a group ride last weekend, 3rd bike from the front (in stagard formation so I was behind the lead bike, ~2s following distance). We hit a yellow light. The lead bike makes the determination that the whole group will not make the light and stops. He has a full track bike with SS brakes.

I progressively apply full brakes but start to get the bar wobble that indicates I'm starting to loose traction on the front. Once the distance was closed by half, I know that I'm not going to stop before getting to him. So quit braking, quick swerve to the right, get back on the throttle and go around, head check the intersection and through the light (which was still yellow).

I then stopped up ahead to allow the group to catch up and returned to my spot in the group leaving ~3s following distance.

All of this was complete reaction with the only real thought was "I'm not going to be able to stop". After I made that determination, the next thought was find the out.

Looking ahead is absolutely the best way to prevent the need for an emergency reaction. But not really the answer to dealing with one.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 07:37 AM   #16
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You can look, you can lean your body all you want; but if you want a quick change of direction, you must push that handlebar with determination.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

At medium and high speeds, seconds of indecision or pushing in the wrong direction mean much distance wasted, and distance is all we have to save a bad situation, either for braking or swerving.

In his book "Proficient Motorcycling", David L. Hough explains that most dangerous traffic situations have several seconds of development, and that motorcyclists that end up in an accident just failed to recognize those situations with enough time to react.

Commencement of effective emergency braking alone may take as long as 2 seconds from recognizing the thread to contact patch beginning full deceleration.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
You can look, you can lean your body all you want; but if you want a quick change of direction, you must push that handlebar with determination.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

At medium and high speeds, seconds of indecision or pushing in the wrong direction mean much distance wasted, and distance is all we have to save a bad situation, either for braking or swerving.

In his book "Proficient Motorcycling", David L. Hough explains that most dangerous traffic situations have several seconds of development, and that motorcyclists that end up in an accident just failed to recognize those situations with enough time to react.

Commencement of effective emergency braking alone may take as long as 2 seconds from recognizing the thread to contact patch beginning full deceleration.
Looking where you want to go rotates your shoulders in the desired direction causing you to press on the appropriate bar. I never think "press the on the handlebar" to do anything. That is a training technique to teach the muscle memory on changing direction. Once you have some experience you just decide where to go and the bike reacts accordingly.

If you keep staring at the object you are trying to avoid, no amount of pressing bars is going to help as you're going end up crossed up on the bike and it will continue to go straight.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 07:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynjay View Post
It doesn't really matter how far ahead you are looking. Look where you want to go and the bike will head that direction.

Ex. I was on a group ride last weekend, 3rd bike from the front (in stagard formation so I was behind the lead bike, ~2s following distance). We hit a yellow light. The lead bike makes the determination that the whole group will not make the light and stops. He has a full track bike with SS brakes.

I progressively apply full brakes but start to get the bar wobble that indicates I'm starting to loose traction on the front. Once the distance was closed by half, I know that I'm not going to stop before getting to him. So quit braking, quick swerve to the right, get back on the throttle and go around, head check the intersection and through the light (which was still yellow).

I then stopped up ahead to allow the group to catch up and returned to my spot in the group leaving ~3s following distance.

All of this was complete reaction with the only real thought was "I'm not going to be able to stop". After I made that determination, the next thought was find the out.

Looking ahead is absolutely the best way to prevent the need for an emergency reaction. But not really the answer to dealing with one.
Maybe you misunderstood my comment but your post just further reinforces my intended point of you have to look far enough ahead to give you time to find that escape route or react as you did.

Oddly enough though, your example leads me to think you might have been trying to look at/follow the leader instead of riding your own ride, looking far enough ahead of him or following to close to react without a quick swerve. You might have ebraked safely just to get a**packed too, you might have been slammed in the side from a cage coming through the intersection. I wouldn't know.....

In the end, I think we are debating the same point, just using different words.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 09:41 AM   #19
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If you keep staring at the object you are trying to avoid, no amount of pressing bars is going to help as you're going end up crossed up on the bike and it will continue to go straight.
I can look at object on my left and still turn right. I bet you can too. Being crossed up doesn't prevent you from turning. Target fixation and freezing prevents you from turning.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:42 AM   #20
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what happens when you can't go left or right and there is no time to brake?


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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:45 AM   #21
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How to practice emergency maneuvers.

1. Get 12 small cardboard boxes
2. Get pickup truck
3. Load empty boxes into back of truck
4. Insert friend in back of truck.
5. Ride down abandoned road behind truck.
6. Have friend randomly toss a box off the back of the truck
7. You dodge box.

That's how they teach you at California Superbike School for the track, works for the road too.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:49 AM   #22
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How to practice emergency maneuvers.

1. Get 12 small cardboard boxes
2. Get pickup truck
3. Load empty boxes into back of truck
4. Insert friend in back of truck.
5. Ride down abandoned road behind truck.
6. Have friend randomly toss a box off the back of the truck
7. You dodge box.

That's how they teach you at California Superbike School for the track, works for the road too.
alternative: ride on california highways. to date i've been hit by 3 cardboard boxes, one headlamp from a car crashing next to me, countless cigarette butts, cups and other trash. and those are just the ones i didnt manage to avoid!
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Old September 25th, 2012, 11:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynjay View Post
Looking where you want to go rotates your shoulders in the desired direction causing you to press on the appropriate bar. I never think "press the on the handlebar" to do anything. That is a training technique to teach the muscle memory on changing direction. Once you have some experience you just decide where to go and the bike reacts accordingly.

If you keep staring at the object you are trying to avoid, no amount of pressing bars is going to help as you're going end up crossed up on the bike and it will continue to go straight.
Jason,

In my experience, it is a little more complicated than that: the bike doesn't go where you voluntarily look just because you look, it takes counter-steering.

The bike goes where you involuntarily look and usually because you are not counter-steering much or at all.

Not that I want to argue, but I would like to correct what I think is an incorrect understanding of the "you go where you look" that we all learned at the MSF course.

As we all know, target fixation is a survival reaction; which means that only happens when we believe that we are in danger.

For relaxed riding, that simply doesn't work that way.
I can look and turn my head at will, while the bike rolls much more than a few feet, without deviating from the trajectory that my brain has planned.

In a panic reaction, "we go where we look" simply because the fear stops us from looking anywhere else.

Keith Code explained better:

"Instinctively, we track and hold potential danger in the center of our gaze, an area about one finger’s width at arm’s length. If the object of our fixation is in motion, the eyes automatically target-track it until we can determine its direction and velocity.

Unfortunately, the evils known as target fixation and tunnel vision often come in pairs. Once the pair attacks, in less than a heartbeat, we can lose our depth perception and our valuable peripheral vision.

The survival instinct’s logic is impeccable: It wants to know our path will or will not intersect with the pothole, apex curbing or another bike or car. That requires some prediction of, “Where will I be at that moment in time?” The degree of certainty you have with the answer bolsters or rips apart your confidence.

If your sense of it is vague, your survival reactions spring into action. This creates stress, jacks up your adrenaline, changes your blood flow, tenses your core and other muscles, interrupts breathing and either freezes you in the doubt of the moment or promotes nervous, poorly timed and unneeded corrections like stabbing the brake or chopping the gas.

Every rider has personal experience with the problems created by the human visual system. Wherever our attention is drawn, so are we. The object becomes our focus, making it easy to miss just about everything else. We don’t see an escape route around the pothole or we miss choosing a good line because that dark patch of pavement hooked our attention for a moment.

In riding, a moment is a long time. Two lazy finger-snaps at a mere 30 mph eat up 44 feet of space. In a simple 90-degree corner on a two-lane road, if you missed your turn-in point by that much, you’d be off the road or into the other lane. Blink an eye (.3 -.4 of a second) just before the brake marker on the front straight at Phillip Island at 200 mph and you’ll go 90-120 feet past it!"


Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...#ixzz27VXG3agL

"Driver training in the past has dictated that scanning the road in front of us is good. But how rapidly should it be done? What are we scanning to find? What do we do with it once we’ve found it?

Our instinctual visual system is geared to spot danger. Any unpredictability about where we are now, and where we will wind up, triggers our survival instincts. Reaction times to recognize a situation are typically in the .35-second range. In near-panic, that same visual instinct commands us to look at what will happen in that same period of time and space. Target fixation can be the unwanted, negative result.

There may be rare exceptions, but riders don’t target-fixate on things that are out in the distance. Our survival instinct wants to know what is going to happen within the bounds of its minimum recognition time to a danger. Unfortunately, target fixation isn’t really looking; it’s more of a hypnotic transfixing. At 30 mph we travel 44 feet per second (fps). That .35-sec. is 15 feet, or about two bike lengths, ahead of you. That isn’t enough time or space to make an intelligent evaluation and initiate effective corrective actions. Concurrently, we often lose our peripheral field of view which gives us vital information on our speed and is essential to our depth perception.

To combat these problems, you can experiment with ways to retrain the system and gain positive control over it. This will help you establish a “scan rate” to improve your visual comprehension of the space in front of you."


Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...#ixzz27VWph0Wc
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Old September 25th, 2012, 12:07 PM   #24
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I asked the question "how far can you really look through the turns" on this forum not so long ago. I feel it has relevance to this thread.

Here is a recap of my findings;

Rail you eyes straight down the front of your bike or just a few bike lengths: it is a visual and mental assault coming at your at speeds you cannot realistically react to

Look to far ahead: everything becomes lethargic and overly complacent, visual markers become difficult to track or impossible to see, FOV is to wide to hit consistent line or spot specifics in peripheral vision that would normally warrant attention or a spot check

Scanning for points of interest within braking distance or slightly ahead: feels good, confidence is inspired, time to brake with conviction and control, visual markers remain in tact and consistency is restored

The truck dropping boxes is impractical for the average rider but does offer a bit of "randomness" that is missing from what practice the average rider can achieve in a parking lot. Actually sounds kinda fun to some extent. @bdavison What level is this exercise?
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Old February 28th, 2015, 06:00 PM   #25
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Old February 28th, 2015, 08:16 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
A well known survival reaction for street riding is steering the handlebar away from the danger.

That will only cause the bike to turn towards the danger, due to the counter-steering effect.

Well before that emergency moment arrives, frequently practice the following avoiding maneuver:

1) Look into an escape path, turning your head rather than only your eyes.

2) Lean your upper body in the direction (left or right) of your selected escape path.

3) Simultaneously push on that side of the handlebar.
IMO, this is just another endorsement for "practicing" counter steering. Such practicing requires thought rather than automatic responses, and is therefor counter productive. In an emergency situation, a rider shouldn't be thinking "Do I push right to go right, or do I push left?" The response should be quick and automatic. We've all used counter steering since learning to ride a bicycle. If you don't confuse the issue with unnecessary "practicing", riders will do it automatically.

I've yet to practice counter steering, and never turned in the wrong direction when confronted with an emergency situation where swerving was needed. Just like every other time I caused the bike to change direction, the movement was done with no deliberate thinking. Suggesting that a rider needs to consciously think about turning/swerving before doing so is misleading and a disservice to riders, especially newbies that may not know better.

We don't think about putting one foot in front of the other when walking. We just walk. Why should it be any different when turning a bike?
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Old February 28th, 2015, 09:06 PM   #27
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In BRC they have the swerving exercise, where coach randomly lifts left or right hand, and that's where you have to swerve. If he lifts both hands, you do emergency braking. Might me much easier to organize than dropping boxes.
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