The death of a 250

[TrueFader]

Been a great journey with my little 250. Took the bike in for its valve inspection and all 8 are deformed. exhaust valves have 0 clearance .007 below spec, intake about .004 off. Basically sucked in and deformed. Bike requires a rebuild or replacement of the current engine and can easily add up to the value of the bike. Even after a rebuild of the valves there could be more damage to the pistons and rings that hasn't been uncovered. And never know the condition of a replacement used engine until it's fully installed and fired up. The bike ran too lean for too long causing the engine to run too hot, when metal is hot enough it molds to the stresses put on it. From what i can tell i have about 4 options; rebuild, replace, sell as is, part out. Don't really have the money for the first 2. So if anybody needs parts from a '08 black 250, might want to shoot me a pm, i doubt I'm gonna get any bites on selling a used bike with a motor needing major work.

Thank you all for any information, advice, know-how or whatnot on this site. it has been of much value but i don't think my next bike will be a ninja 250. hope any info i have provided has been of help.

[scotty]

Ran to lean? What did you have done to the bike to make it run that lean? How many miles do you have on it? Did you do a valve adjustment at the 6500 mark?

[TrueFader]

bike was lean from aftermarket exhaust put on by previous owner. he also removed the snorkel without letting me know allowing more air in. Carbs were jetted too late, valve clearance inspection was done too late. 9500 miles on the bike. Engine was probably broken in wrong with aftermarket exhaust installed and no correction of the air/fuel mixture.

[Flashmonkey]

Holy crap! I'm sorry to hear the news.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by TrueFader

bike was lean from aftermarket exhaust put on by previous owner. he also removed the snorkel without letting me know allowing more air in. Carbs were jetted too late, valve clearance inspection was done too late. 9500 miles on the bike. Engine was probably broken in wrong with aftermarket exhaust installed and no correction of the air/fuel mixture.

Wow, that sucks man. I know on ebay I found 2008-2010 motors for $500. Maybe save up and replace the motor yourself.?.

[kkim]

wait... on what are you basing your conclusion that the motor is toast? how was it running prior to you taking it in for the inspection? are you sure they measured the clearances correctly?

at this point, how much would it cost for them to adjust the valves to spec so you can properly assess the engine condition? color of the plugs?

and when you say all 8 are "deformed"... what were "deformed"?

I'd say there are a lot of questions that need to be answered until you can be certain that the bike is a total write off at this point.

still sucks though.

[KURT]

You need to walk out back of the repair shop, and see the boat this guy's making payments on.

Talk to someone like RacerX, on the forum, to see what a complete head should cost. You might not like putting a few hundred on your charge card, but it's better than the scrap yard.

[Alex]

Hi Chris! Alan gave me a call this afternoon to see if these issues were popping up normally on the ninjette boards, or if this was an anomaly. I let him know that it sure sounded like an anomaly, and agreed with him that if the repair costs + parts costs were over a certain amount, at some point a replacement engine in good shape might start to make more sense.

Alan's a straight shooter and I have no doubt is giving you his well researched and honest opinion about what he's seeing in your motor, and you likely got a chance to look at the valves yourself when you stopped by, right?

No reason not to get a second opinion from some of the folks that run their motors quite hard here, from Racer X to some of the other track folks to see what their experiences have been with head work and what might make sense in your case.

[Racer x]

I just rebuilt my top end
.Pistons from JE are 300 bucks .The valves and gaskets from cheap cycle parts are like 300 bucks. Even if it did not take thousands of dollars worth of tools and the 8 hours labor. It can be more than a used engine. I would not be afraid of a used engine . The ninja engine is very good .But abuse will break anything.

[HKr1]

So was it running like crap when you took it in??

What where the results of compression test? I had an old gpz900 motor that started getting 0's on cylinders 3 & 4. I just adjusted them and kept riding, after 3 more scheduled adjustments did it really take a dump. < turns out it was soft valve seats

[bob706]

Sorry to hear about your bike. Don't know what I would do in your situation. Best of luck to you

[TenaciousD]

To me, a failed engine does not warrant scrapping the bike. Source a used engine and ride on! Even you have to save up for a few months to afford a $500 engine, at least at the end you'll have a bike that's worth something.

[g21-30]

Check out these used engines on eBay:

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories

$500 for an '09!

Look on the bright side, you can do a DIY-Engine Replacement!

[M]

It's well documented that the 'J' model '08-10 250s arrive stateside very lean to begin with. This is done to comply with EPA emissions testing. Even a stock 'J' model benefits from adjusting the idle mixture screws, along with re-jetting to an appropriate A/F (air to fuel) ratio.

The combination of issues your bike had let to its engine failure. An extremely lean condition will cause permanent damage over time.

As to your options, replacing the engine is probably the most prudent route to go. Replacing the engine will take you the better part of a day if it's your first time. Take your time, and don't get into a hurry.

Some considerations for you:

* check the valve clearances on the new engine before installing it; it's much easier!
* as you remove bolts, wires, etc., mark them all so you know what they are and where they go
* you will need to drain coolant before removing OEM engine
* you will need to fill coolant on new engine
* you will need new crush washers between the header and engine block
* pay attention to which throttle cable goes on top & which goes on bottom

A Kawasaki workshop manual will make your life a lot easier, providing you all the necessary torque values, along with diagrams and such.

[TrueFader]

Originally Posted by Alex

Hi Chris! Alan gave me a call this afternoon to see if these issues were popping up normally on the ninjette boards, or if this was an anomaly. I let him know that it sure sounded like an anomaly, and agreed with him that if the repair costs + parts costs were over a certain amount, at some point a replacement engine in good shape might start to make more sense.

Alan's a straight shooter and I have no doubt is giving you his well researched and honest opinion about what he's seeing in your motor, and you likely got a chance to look at the valves yourself when you stopped by, right?

No reason not to get a second opinion from some of the folks that run their motors quite hard here, from Racer X to some of the other track folks to see what their experiences have been with head work and what might make sense in your case.

yeah alan is a great guy, measured the clearances right in front of me and we spent about an hour of his time talking about my options. seems like fixing the problem will run between 1500 and 2000 between replacing the valves or dropping in a new engine. it just doesn't seem worth it to put that kind of money into such a cheap bike. right now i still owe money on the bike and am just looking to break even on selling parts off

[TrueFader]

the problem with a used engine is you dont know what condition it is in until after it's already in the bike and fired up. ya you can check valve clearances but not compression. the $ of the new engine and dropping out the old and installing the new is just too much. from what i can see the frame and tank can get me about 400 each and the other misc parts can add up to what i owe and maybe even a small down payment on another bike. trying to make some lemonade out of these sour lemons but i'm out of sugar so the lemonade is still gonna suck

[backinthesaddleagain]

Cant you do a leakdown test on the engine. Basically they put air in via the sparkplug hole and see if any pressure is leaked out via the rings, intake valves or exhaust valves. Only 2 cylinders to check.

[TrueFader]

Originally Posted by kkim

wait... on what are you basing your conclusion that the motor is toast? how was it running prior to you taking it in for the inspection? are you sure they measured the clearances correctly?

at this point, how much would it cost for them to adjust the valves to spec so you can properly assess the engine condition? color of the plugs?

and when you say all 8 are "deformed"... what were "deformed"?

I'd say there are a lot of questions that need to be answered until you can be certain that the bike is a total write off at this point.

still sucks though.

deformed as in mushroomed and sucked in. bike isn't a total write off just the top half of the engine, even with a rebuild there's a chance that the bad conditions of the engine could have caused problems with the piston rings and such that hasn't been uncovered.

[backinthesaddleagain]

can also check compression by turning motor over.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by TrueFader

deformed as in mushroomed and sucked in.

Chris, what was deformed/mushroomed and sucked in?

[mikedabike64]

dont do anything rash, even if it takes a few years start dropping pennies into a bank, change adds up fast. just let it sit and think about it a while.

[TrueFader]

Originally Posted by kkim

Chris, what was deformed/mushroomed and sucked in?

the valves, mainly the exhaust valves, the intake gets the cool air from outside so have been better protected

[TrueFader]

Originally Posted by mike h

dont do anything rash, even if it takes a few years start dropping pennies into a bank, change adds up fast. just let it sit and think about it a while.

i have to pretty much rip it apart and drop the engine out for any solution, so i'll take that time to think about what i want to do.

[2WheelGuy]

How much do you want for the bike?

[kkim]

so they took the head apart and examined the valves? if not, how was it determined the valves were mishappen?

Are we talking about the stem side or the base of the valve? I'm assuming base/seat side.

[HKr1]

Maybe the valves cam out with removal of the exhaust cam.

[Racer x]

You are correct that a used engine is a risk. There is no real way to test things without special tools. If you look you can find an engine for the right price and in good condition.

I just passes up an engine with a hole in the case. from the crash. Top end was new .It was only 299 plus the shipping .That is the killer ,another couple hundred bucks . That made it not worth it to me. BUT it was in California. So maybe something like that. These engines are a piece of cake to fix . The forum will help you . IF you can take it apart you can fix it.

[TrueFader]

I have time so if I find a lightly used engine for a good price I'll consider that route.

2 wheel: if you have an honest interest in the bike pm me.

Kkim : I'm no mechanic. But from what i was shown the exhaust valves are so out of spec they are beyond "routine maintenance" and need to be replaced. They were measured in front of me and even the smallest gauge won't fit in the clearance when cold. When hot they expand tighter

[kkim]

Originally Posted by TrueFader

Kkim : I'm no mechanic. But from what i was shown the exhaust valves are so out of spec they are beyond "routine maintenance" and need to be replaced. They were measured in front of me and even the smallest gauge won't fit in the clearance when cold. When hot they expand tighter

yes, in all likelihood your exhaust valves are burned/damaged, but that's an assumption at this point. Are you willing to spend some money to find out for certain? If so, have them adjust the valves with the proper shims to get the valves back into spec and then have them do a leakdown or compression test. Only then will you know if the valves are damaged.

how was the bike running just prior to you taking it in for the inspection?

[TrueFader]

the bike was having trouble cold starting and holding idle unless really hot. it was rather slow to return to idle.

and i pretty much trust my mechanic in his work and evaluation of the engine. and from what i understood shimming the valves would just be a temporary fix and the problem would re-occur. would take a lot of shimming too....

[kkim]

as long as you trust your mechanic to make a knowledgeable call, that's all that really matters. sorry to hear of your engine's demise.

I hope you can find an acceptable solution to keeping your bike operable.

gl

[TrueFader]

ya gonna try and make back the money i owe on the bike somehow and then just save all fall and winter for a down payment on an sv650, wanted one before i bought the 250 but insurance wouldnt allow it at the time. But my driving record has improved and rates have dropped so i think it's worth looking into again

[greg737]

So your exhaust valves were tight which causes them to remain in contact with the valve seat for longer than normal, which overheats them, burns and eventually deforms them (I think it's called "tuliped" like the flower).

But they've got to be really, really tight for this to happen. How on earth did they get that tight?

[kkim]

Originally Posted by greg737

So your exhaust valves were tight which causes them to remain in contact with the valve seat for longer than normal, which overheats them, burns and eventually deforms them (I think it's called "tuliped" like the flower).

But they've got to be really, really tight for this to happen. How on earth did they get that tight?

actually, tight valves keep the valves from fully closing which makes their contact with the valve seat minimal. the extra air that passes through there heats up and burns the valves.

good question on why the valves were so out of spec, though. would be helpful to see what the valves really look like at this point.

[TrueFader]

Originally Posted by greg737

So your exhaust valves were tight which causes them to remain in contact with the valve seat for longer than normal, which overheats them, burns and eventually deforms them (I think it's called "tuliped" like the flower).

But they've got to be really, really tight for this to happen. How on earth did they get that tight?

Wish i knew how it happened, but it did. thanks for summarizing the problem

[TrueFader]

Originally Posted by kkim

actually, tight valves keep the valves from fully closing which makes their contact with the valve seat minimal. the extra air that passes through there heats up and burns the valves.

good question on why the valves were so out of spec, though. would be helpful to see what the valves really look like at this point.

when i get the bike dismantled at home i'll see if i can pull one out and upload a picture or 2.

[Racer x]

I have all the tools to do the seats.(I replaced my valves).I am working on the getting tools to face the valves .Those tools are a bit pricey. But you need new valves any how .When you get it apart . I will be glad to fix the head for you .if you want to ship me the head and valves and valve stem seals.

This is what I did to my damaged head to get ready for Maxton.

[TrueFader]

thanks for the offer, i'll definetly consider it when i get to that point.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by kkim

actually, tight valves keep the valves from fully closing which makes their contact with the valve seat minimal. the extra air that passes through there heats up and burns the valves.

good question on why the valves were so out of spec, though. would be helpful to see what the valves really look like at this point.

Yeah, it was already half-past Beer o'clock when I wrote that. I had the concept in my brain but there where hops and malted barley in the way.

And I think there might be another "actually" to follow your actually. You're correct in saying that when tight the valve spends less time on the valve seat. But the heat buildup is increased mainly by the lack of contact with the valve seat. There's less time for the valve to conduct heat from the valve seat to the much cooler (by way of oil and water) engine head.

[kkim]

Greg, my understanding is that when the exhaust valves don't close, air from the exhaust pipe side gets sucked past the opening from the open valve and heats the valve edges... sort of like blowing air onto a charcoal fire. The coals will get red/white hot if given enough air to oxidize. I'm sure less heat transfer from lack of valve/head contact/duration is to blame, too.

I'm very interested in hearing what Chris finds if/when the head is removed. I would think if the cause of his engine problems is due to the PO installing a pipe and removing the snorkel, the bike would run lean and pinging would have been quite audible. In that case, the tops of his pistons could be damaged as well, if not holed.

lucky you... getting to enjoy beer.