View Full Version : Led signals not working at all.


chuey_316
May 30th, 2012, 06:32 PM
The signals on my pregen are already relocated into the pods, and have worked fine. I wanted the signals to be brighter, so I went to autozone today and grabbed some 1157 led bulbs and a el12 electronic flasher.

After getting home and swapping the bulbs and installing the new flasher, I checked the signals and they do not work. The front signals still work fine and all the bulbs worked ok when I tried them in the brake light socket.

After doing some reading I see that alot of people have an issue with either the lights staying on and not flashing, or flashing too fast. My problem it that the lights won't come on at all.

I've been searching for the past hour or so now, and have not been able to find an answer as to why this is happening.

chuey_316
May 31st, 2012, 10:23 AM
Should also mention that I tried an 8ohm 20w resistor as well, but still got nothing.

FrugalNinja250
May 31st, 2012, 03:56 PM
Putting a resistor in series isn't going to accomplish anything. The flasher may be polarized, i.e. only works one way. Also, the LEDs are probably polarized, you can check that by using jumper cables to connect one to the battery and see if they flash connected either way. If they are polarized then just reverse the bullet connectors at the signals.

The real problem is that the dash indicator bulb is wired across the two sides. That way when one side is flashing the indicator bulb current goes to ground through the opposite side's filament bulbs. The little bulb in the indicator won't allow enough current to flow to actually light up the off-side's bulbs, but it will flow enough to light up an LED bulb. Typical symptom is that both sides flash at the same time no matter the setting of the turn signal switch. The only fix for this requires either removing the bulb entirely or doing a wiring modification to add a pair of diodes and a separate ground for the dash indicator bulb.

I wouldn't bother with resistors. If the parts store flasher doesn't work (it has to be an "electronic" one for use with various quantities of bulbs) you can buy a flasher module with a Kawasaki-specific connector from CycleGear, runs around $20 IIRC. That's what I've got in my LED setup.

chuey_316
May 31st, 2012, 08:03 PM
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

The flasher is electronic and not polarized, I checked that and it works either way it's connected. I switched the wires around at the signals too, but no go. The main reason for wanting to do this is to have my signals brighter, but this is proving to be a headache. I'll check into the flasher from CycleGear, thanks for the heads up on that.

If it comes down to it, and I can't get it working then I'll just order some clear lens for the pods and call it good. The brake light is working and brighter with the led so that's a start.

JLinde1339
June 6th, 2012, 12:47 PM
I have installed LED front signals. The rear signals were already integrated by a PO. I'm a complete electrotard, but I've looked into this, because I have hyper blinkers. It's common in most cars and bikes, as it alerts you to when a signal is out. What I've been told is that to correct this, you NEED a resistor on the return wire, since LEDs require much less load than standard bulbs, there fore, the electrical system thinks those lights are out. What I was also told is LEDs are uni directional, and if the current goes the wrong way, they blow or melt. So if the current was wrong on your first try, theyre toast.

FrugalNinja250
June 7th, 2012, 10:56 AM
I have installed LED front signals. The rear signals were already integrated by a PO. I'm a complete electrotard, but I've looked into this, because I have hyper blinkers. It's common in most cars and bikes, as it alerts you to when a signal is out. What I've been told is that to correct this, you NEED a resistor on the return wire, since LEDs require much less load than standard bulbs, there fore, the electrical system thinks those lights are out. What I was also told is LEDs are uni directional, and if the current goes the wrong way, they blow or melt. So if the current was wrong on your first try, theyre toast.

What you were told is incorrect.

I'll through some factoids out:

1. LEDs literally act as one-way check valves for electrons. Voltage is a way of saying electron pressure (not the same as electron flow). LEDs do have ratings for how much reverse voltage they can withstand before failing. It is way, way, way higher than what most vehicle electrical systems can supply. If it's hooked up backwards it simply won't light, no current will flow, and nothing will melt, blowup, or fail.

2. Many (but not all) LED direct replacement bulbs have a pair of diodes wired into their circuit such as to allow the LED bulb to be non-polarized. This is typical for assemblies replacing dual filament bulbs such as the 1157, and fairly common for single filament bulb replacements with the BA15 base. It is not common for wedge bulb replacements such as the 192 or 168 because these can easily be reversed in their socket to get the proper polarity.

3. Older cars with thermomechanical flashers depend on bulb current to heat a bimetal element inside the flasher module, when it heats it bends and breaks contact, turning off the bulbs. It then cools and straightens, making contact and lighting the bulbs again. The cycle repeats. If you change the resistance in the circuit it alters the current flow through the bimetal element and thus changes the flash rate. These circuits are fairly sensitive to bulb current, usually such that losing one bulb drastically affects the flash rate. They are not designed to do this on purpose, it is just a byproduct of the way the flasher is designed. The typical response with bulb failure on one of these designs is a non-flash, because losing just one bulb drops the current to the point that the bimetal doesn't get hot enough to bend far enough to break contact.

4. The Ninja 250 has a solid-state flasher, i.e. electronic, but it is *not* a fixed-rate flasher. As such, one of the byproducts of this design is that it flashes faster with lower bulb current. This is a result of the way the resistor and capacitor inside the flasher module interact, it is not a feature specifically designed to warn you of a failed bulb.

5. LEDs draw a mere fraction of the current that incandescent bulbs do, which is why on our bikes the stock flasher module blinks far to fast when converting to LED bulbs.

6. Resistors act as a choke on electron flow. If you think of electricity as water flowing through a hose, pinching the hose will reduce water flow like a resistor reduces electron flow. incandescent bulbs are very low resistance, which allows a lot of electrons to flow. This flow results in electrical friction in the filament, which creates heat, heat hot enough to radiate in the visible light spectrum. LEDs produce photons using a much different process, so it takes far less electron flow to make an equivalent amount of light with LEDs. This reduced amount of current is what causes the Ninja flash relay to speed up. If you add a resistor in series, which means the electrons go through the resistor and then the LED, you'll only speed up the flash rate because current is being even further reduced.

7. What you do is put a low-resistance resistor in parallel with the LED, so that way more overall current flows through the circuit. A little through the LED, a lot through the resistor, added up it equals the original bulb current and the flasher works like normal. That's a lot of current, it has to equal the original current, so you'll need honking big resistors (rated in Watts) or they'll melt, burn, etc.

8. Or get an electronic fixed rate flasher and call it done. No resistors, no fuss, no muss, no melting, popping, burning, etc.

Out of time, may post more later. Math to calculate resistor values and Wattage ratings is not hard. Pointless, but not hard.

JLinde1339
June 7th, 2012, 11:29 AM
Wow, lots of good info there. Thanks for the schooling, I feel slightly less electrotarded now. Lol.

So with regard to number 7, doesn't that accomplish the same thing as I was told? An inline resistor on the negative from the LED would pull the return current down to the level that would have been sent by the original incandescent bulb, thus the module would operate as it did. I think I was misunderstood, as I see in number 6, I think you thought I meant to put the resistor before the LED, not after.

Thanks again for the info. I've tried to understand electricity for years, believe me, but the concept never took root. Lol

FrugalNinja250
June 7th, 2012, 12:15 PM
Wow, lots of good info there. Thanks for the schooling, I feel slightly less electrotarded now. Lol.

So with regard to number 7, doesn't that accomplish the same thing as I was told? An inline resistor on the negative from the LED would pull the return current down to the level that would have been sent by the original incandescent bulb, thus the module would operate as it did. I think I was misunderstood, as I see in number 6, I think you thought I meant to put the resistor before the LED, not after.

Thanks again for the info. I've tried to understand electricity for years, believe me, but the concept never took root. Lol

Still don't have it right. :) Will post more tonight, too long for mobile typing.

FrugalNinja250
June 7th, 2012, 03:16 PM
Wow, lots of good info there. Thanks for the schooling, I feel slightly less electrotarded now. Lol.

So with regard to number 7, doesn't that accomplish the same thing as I was told? An inline resistor on the negative from the LED would pull the return current down to the level that would have been sent by the original incandescent bulb, thus the module would operate as it did. I think I was misunderstood, as I see in number 6, I think you thought I meant to put the resistor before the LED, not after.

Thanks again for the info. I've tried to understand electricity for years, believe me, but the concept never took root. Lol

You've got it backwards. Increasing a resistance causes a decrease in current.

Everything has resistance, including bulbs. When multiple resistances are in line (in series) their effect on current flow is cumulative, in other words, it adds up. It makes no difference in a single circuit where the resistances are, since it's cumulative. A+B+C is the same as B+C+A or C+A+B, etc. So, putting a resistor inline before, after, or in the middle achieves the same overall end result. In fancier jargon, the current at any point in a circuit is the same as the current through the entire circuit, and that current is based on the cumulative resistances of all loads in that circuit.

It's critical to understand the difference between series (in line) and parallel (side by side) when thinking about current flow.

Resistances in parallel are the opposite, and it's a bit more complicated. Here's info on that: http://www.1728.org/resistrs.htm

Here's a better one: http://www.bcae1.com/srsparll.htm

The flasher relay only sees the total resistance in all the circuits, both parallel and series.

Bare LEDs are inherently very low resistance devices, in fact, LED bulb replacement assemblies have resistors built in to reduce current through the actual LEDs, otherwise the bare LED would explode the moment you applied power. This resistance limits current through the bulb assembly, and this lower current is what alters the flash rate.

Combination series/parallel circuits are a bit more complicated to figure out, but mainly it's an issue of organization and record-keeping as you do your math. You figure all the series resistances in each branch first, then you figure the parallel resistances across the branches.

The Ninja signal circuit is a fairly simple setup with one twist. The front and rear bulbs on each side are in parallel. The flasher is in series. Current flows from the battery through the fuse, from there to the flasher relay, then to the switch. From the switch it splits and flows to front and rear bulbs in parallel, then back to the battery.

The twist is the dash indicator bulb. The indicator bulb is connected across the two side circuits. When the left turn signal is selected current flows through the main bulbs in parallel and through the dash indicator bulb, but from the dash indicator bulb it flows to the other side's wiring, through the main bulb filaments, then to ground. The dash bulb is a #78 and has high resistance, so it doesn't allow much current to flow through it. What little current does get through is not enough to actually light the main bulbs up. (In essence, the dash bulb is in parallel with the bulbs of whichever side is on at the time, but returning to the battery via the other side's bulb's ground connection.)

This isn't a perfect technical explanation, that would take more time to write than I have available, but in general it's close enough to get a decent layman's understanding without having to do a lot of math. :)

FrugalNinja250
June 7th, 2012, 03:47 PM
I thought the stator did not have a voltage regulator which is why the output voltage from it can vary somewhat particularly based on engine rpm (and incidentally stator rpm). If this is true I am correct, if this is not true and it does have a voltage regulator you are.


I was referring to his comment about adding resistance to increase current, that's backwards. No mention of stator or voltage regulation in this thread so far, your mention is the first mention.

But since you mention it, yes, there's a voltage regulator (1). It does not regulate current. Current is basically limited to the max that can be produced at any given time, generally topping out at 180-200W on the pregens(2). As to voltage varying, that's normal. When the current draw exceeds maximum output of the alternator at any given RPM then voltage drops. The faster the alternator turns the more power it can put out, but generally it reaches maximum for the design around a few thousand RPM.

Cites:

(1) http://faq.ninja250.org/images/a/a4/Wiring_Schematic_-_R4.pdf

(2) http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Alternator_Information

FrugalNinja250
June 7th, 2012, 08:31 PM
it is only backwards with a voltage regulated power supply, it is not backwards if its a current regulated supply. That is why I brought up the stator and why I thought that it did not have a voltage regulator thus making it current regulated. This is what I was thinking when I said that resistance drops voltage, which I think is where he may have gotten it from.

The only two places I've seen a current-regulated power supply is a lab where I used to work and the one on my bench that I'm looking at right now. I've never seen any motor vehicle with current regulated electric generation. Wait, there's one other place I've seen a current-regulated power supply, and that's my TIG welder.

Don't overthink things so much, finding complexity where there is none rarely leads to happiness... :)

FrugalNinja250
June 8th, 2012, 05:12 AM
I have a switchable current or amperage regulated power supply next to me on my desk, they are not uncommon. It drives my ham radio. We also had them in college. As I stated I was not sure, I only knew what a pure stator (not an alternator) output and that is what its called on bikes. I also knew that there are 3rd party voltage regulators which even the DIY ones claim can boost performance somewhat due to increased spark on at least some bikes (one at least only claims it about one, the one the author owns).

Current regulated power supplies may be common in several environments (welding, electronics labs, even home hobbyist's benches) but my point was that they are non-existent in the motorcycle and automotive environments.

WRT converting engine mechanical power to electrical power, the main two ways to do so are alternators and generators. Alternators do so by first producing alternating current (hence the name) which is then rectified by running it through a diode trio(1) to convert it into DC. It is then regulated to a fixed (relatively speaking) voltage level, which makes these systems voltage-regulated rather than current regulated. An alternator turns mechanical energy into electrical energy by rotating a magnetic field through a fixed magnetic field. The part that creates the fixed field is called the stator, and the part that creates the rotating field is called the rotor. You can create these fields in various manners, for instance in cars both the stator and the rotor are electromagnets (which is why you have to have electricity supplied into the alternator to "kick" it off, get it producing electricity). As an aside, it's why you can't bump or push-start a modern car that's completely dead; without some power to energize the alternator's windings it won't make any power, and without power the injectors and coils can't fire.

Anyhow, our Ninjas use permanent magnets for one of the two magnetic fields, namely the rotor(2)(3). The stator is a series of windings bolted to the left side engine cover, and the rotor is a cup lined with magnets bolted to the crank that rotates around the stator. Because it uses permanent magnets, alternating current comes out as long as the engine rotates, dead battery or not.

Since a stator is part of an alternator, I'm not sure what a "pure stator" output is. Because of the way windings are done in most mobile source alternators, the raw output is (typically) three-phase(4) which is then rectified into DC before going to the regulator. BTW, on our Ninjas the regulation is handled differently than it is in alternators without permanent magnets(5). In modern alternators where both the rotor and stator are electromagnets the voltage output is typically controlled by varying the field strength in either the rotor or stator. If the voltage output of the alternator drops the regulator increases current flow through the windings, boosting the magnetic field strength and thus the current output, and conversely the regulator decreases the winding current if the voltage goes to high.

I've been involved automotive systems for over 30 years, FWIW...


(1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier#Rectifier_devices

(2) http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Alternator_Information

(3) http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/3/Make/Kawasaki/YearID/47/Year/2006/ModelID/4185/Model/Ninja_250R/GroupID/132363/Group/Generator

(4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase

(5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator

FrugalNinja250
June 8th, 2012, 10:12 AM
You forgot stator which does not have a voltage regulator. You can go to youtube and see many how to DIY videos on stator construction, they are actually quite simple to make, even by hand with virtually no tools. Stator is what I mentioned earlier and was talking about.

Please elaborate. I specifically mentioned the word "stator" several times above, clearly not forgetting it, and in the context of this thread, which is primarily about alternators in general and our bike in particular.

The links I provided spell it out fairly succinctly, the stator is the part that does not turn, and the rotor is the part that does. There are some other definitions for "stator"(1), but I can't see how they apply here at all.

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stator

Not sure what you're not understanding here...

Moving on...

FrugalNinja250
June 8th, 2012, 11:45 AM
Whatever, yes yes its all me you understand everything. Please reread what I said it will answer some of your questions. Now back to the thread of LED signals not working instead of lectures.

Your sarcasm and 'tude aside, while I was riding at lunch I think I figured out where the understanding issue is, will post more tonight when I get home. Typing on mobile way too PITA for lengthy reply.

FrugalNinja250
June 8th, 2012, 12:12 PM
I know where the understanding issue is. You want to lecture and not listen to what others have to say. You want to assume that everyone else knows nothing and that you have to educate them about everything. Read what I have already typed in here and your confusion, compulsion to lecture, etc will probably go away.

I am fully aware of what you are not understanding about all of this based on your responses.

It's apparent that your ability to learn is impaired by a fundamental lack of ability to grasp that you may be wrong about something. The name calling, snide asides, etc, are very typical of those with your type of personality.

Please continue with your ignorance on this subject, grasp onto it as hard as you can with all your strength, perhaps it will keep you warm and happy at night. I had you in ignore, but opened your posts here to see if I could remember why I put you there. Now I remember. You are an ignorant ass and quite proud of that. So, back into ignore you go.

Buh bye...

FrugalNinja250
June 8th, 2012, 04:37 PM
I had to put Trixter back on ignore, it became apparent that his grasp of electromechanical principles is not only fundamentally lacking, but deliberately so with much pride and prejudice. As such, this post is for anyone else reading this by now pointless thread (thanks, Trixter, you ass) who might want to have valid information on how alternators work.

Of course a stator doesn't have a regulator, just like a crankshaft doesn't have an oil pump, nor a piston has a pushrod. In isolation, none of those items will accomplish much other than being a paperweight.

A stator is just a thing, just one part of an assembly that is used to generate electrical power. Without the other parts in the alternator the stator by itself does nothing, can do nothing. You can probe a stator with a voltmeter all you want, it will always read zero if there's not a rotor present and the rotor is turning, and through some arrangement of things there is a rotating magnetic field present. Yes, it's possible to have a rotating rotor and a fixed stator yet have no electrical generation taking place. Quite common, actually. For instance, in many 60's-80's cars the current that created the rotor's magnetic field went through the alternator warning light. If that bulb burned out then the alternator field windings would never energize and thus the alternator would never "turn on".

To generate electricity, in the context of vehicles including motorcycles, you have to have copper windings moving relative to a magnetic field, either by moving the magnetic field or by moving the windings, it doesn't matter which you move. As I've stated already (and provided authoritative cites in support), the stator is the part of the system that doesn't move, and the rotor is the part that does. Without both you have nothing. Regulation is done separately, and (again, in this context) is typically done for voltage, not current.

Now, not all alternator/generator output is voltage regulated. Low-end electric-start lawnmowers, some motorcycles from long ago, etc, used rectification to turn the ac into DC but ran it unregulated for voltage. They got away with this because they sized the very few components (mainly headlamp, coil, and battery) such that they wouldn't be harmed by the widely variable voltages found in such a system, and relied on the battery to absorb and moderate these varying voltages. To be sure, these voltages would shorten the life of those various components, but for something cheap and not expected to get much use it was sufficient.

Modern vehicles use fully-regulated charging systems (again, voltage not current).

Here are two examples of how the stator and rotor work together:

In a GM SI series alternator (workhorse for over 25 years) the magnetic field is generated by running current through copper windings. These windings are wrapped around a heavy iron core that amplifies and shapes the magnetic field. Together, the windings and core comprise the rotor, and it is spun via the alternator belt. The stator is the fixed set of copper windings and it is wrapped around the rotor. As the electromagnetic fields of the rotor move through the stator windings alternating current is produced in the windings. In the case of the SI series alternator, the voltage regulator and rectifier are mounted inside the alternator housing so that already regulated voltage comes out of the alternator assembly.

The Ninjette alternator uses permanent magnets (rare earth magnets, actually) in a spinning cup as the the rotor, attached to the end of the crank The rotor surrounds the copper windings of the stator. Three separate wires leave the stator, each carrying alternating current, and go to an external rectifier to be converted to DC, then that DC goes to the voltage regulator to be lowered to the target voltage, typically around 14V. In this case the stator is inside the rotor, compared to the previous example where the rotor is inside the stator.

How does a stator work in these two examples? The moving magnetic fields induce electron flow in the copper windings of the stator, like an electric motor in reverse. A more specific explanation of how induction works in this context can be found here:

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/electromagnetism/electromagnetic-induction.html

The concepts are fairly simple, almost anyone can grasp them, it's in the details of engineering to get high efficiencies in small sizes and low cost where it gets complicated.

As an addition in response to one of Trixter's earlier misconceptions about how and what the stator does and does not do. The stator has an output that's more or less proportional to rotor speed; the faster you spin the rotor the higher the voltage. There are some things that complicate this somewhat, but the concept is basically that. The voltage will be significantly higher than the final target voltage, which is why you need voltage regulation. I've seen voltages over 40V on the input side of the regulator. Remember, this is AC, not DC. The rectifier's job is to convert the AC to DC after it comes out of the stator, but it's still higher voltage since only a couple of volts is lost through the rectifier diodes. From there it goes to the regulator and is finally dropped to the target system voltage.

Edit to add, there are a few ways to regulate voltage. One way, used by the GM alternator in the above example, does so by varying current flow through the rotor and thus reducing output. The other way, used in the Ninja's case, regulates voltage directly using electronics to reduce the voltage and maintain target output. This way is less efficient, but required when the magnetic field is created with magnets instead of electromagnets.

At very low RPMs the stator output drops enough that the voltage hitting the regulator is less than the regulator's design output, then the voltage will drop below target. This is not the case of the stator regulating anything or not, it's just a case of the alternator output being too low.