It seems that we are missing a DIY thread on shimming the carb needles. Why should this be done? Well, these bikes run lean from the factory to ensure the best possible fuel economy, in some cases the bikes are so lean in makes them very hard to control throttle wise in the low end. Shimming the carb needles (adding washers under the needles) will give the engine more fuel which will make the bike a lot nicer to ride, especially in the low end.

So, decided you want to shim you needles? Read on :D

Step 1, you will need to remove the fairings, See kkims thread DIY- Let's Get Nekkid!!! (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9933) on how to do this.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=257

Step 2, you will need to remove the gas tank, again see kkims thread DIY- How to Remove the Gas Tank (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10191) on how to remove this.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=258

Step 3. You will see the carbs right below where the gas tank was (circled in red) remove the 4 screws on the right carb cover first (this one is the easiest) I recommend unscrewing the screws that are the hardest to get to first as there will be less pressure on them to loosen (due to the other screws) and this will reduce the possibility of stripping the heads. As kkim says, ask me how I know! :D

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=259

Step 4, with the carb cover open, remove the needle, this can be cone with tweezers, being careful not to touch the rubber diaphram as this is very dellicate and expensive to replace. (I had to remove the carbs right out to remove a stripped screw, but for shimming, it is not needed to remove them.)

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=260

Step 5, add a washer or 2 to the needle, I originally used 4mm washers (as pictured) which were too big and the spring holding the needle down was not holding it down. and I have since gone to 3mm and these are perfect.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=261

Step 6, put the needle back in, the spring back in and replace the carb cover being careful to ensure that the rubber diaphram is sitting in the slot for it so as it will not get pinched by the carb cover.

Step 7, repeat step 3 to 6 for the remaining carb.

Step 8, put the gas tank back on and reconnect everything, make sure that the bike will start and rev without dying then put the seat back on and take it for a short ride round the block. If you are happy with the changes, put everything back together. If you are not happy, try removing, or adding a washer and testing to find the best setting. Once you are happy, put everything back together and test ride again. :thumbup:

:clapping: Thank you, sir!! :)

Some added pictures for clarity...

tops of the carbs that need to be accessed to get to the the needles. Again, you don't need to remove the carbs to access the needles. They were removed in this picture because these were taken when I was installing a jet kit. If you are using a #2 phillips to remove the screws, press down hard...really hard, before you apply sideways pressure to undo the screw, otherwise you stand a good chance of stripping the head out. And if you are doing this while the carbs are still in the bike, you will need a long shaft #2 screwdriver to reach the screws through the frame.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_geC920GCq38/SLkSyDZo7xI/AAAAAAAAAz0/_xy_xdd8e0o/s640/DSC04540-1.JPG



stock needle with and without 3mm washers added
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_geC920GCq38/SLkSz8IDsVI/AAAAAAAAA0E/b4DqoHye5fg/s640/DSC04542-1.JPG


album for anyone interested containing more pictures taken when I removed airbox and installed a jet kit.
http://picasaweb.google.com/kkim993/AirboxAndRejet#

No problems :)

Thanks for adding those pics, I didn't really have any better than what I posted.

No, David... thank you for taking the time to do the DIY. It's always great when one can help others by posting a few pics and listing their experiences. Thanks for sharing your time and effort.

You beat me to it. I was going to represent the black bike, but NO!!!!! even the green owners are faster. C'mon David, give a girl a chance!!! lol. Great job, thanks for the DIY.

You beat me to it. I was going to represent the black bike, but NO!!!!! even the green owners are faster. C'mon David, give a girl a chance!!! lol. Great job, thanks for the DIY. Ha ha ha, you cannot stop us greeneys :p Kelly was the one who suggested I do this, lol.

No worries :)

I wish you ladies would stop encouraging kkim! I don't think it is just kkim out need to worry about ;)

You know what they say....cheat, cheat, and win. Whatever it takes!
:D:eek: A concept that is purely foreign to green bike owners. We win so often, we don't understand the concept of cheating to win. :confused: Tell me sir... lose so often it's become a way of life? maybe it's time to buy a green bike... or at the very least rattle can it. Then, your problems will be solved! :thumbup:

Great to hear about the bike running well. It's my firm belief these bikes are too lean from the factory and a simple thing like shimming will help the bike be a lot more rider friendly. A complete rejet will allow you to fine tune to your heart's (and patience's) content. Looks like you have it pretty close to ideal for your location. :thumbup:

You better watch out. There's a reason I posted the source for the HID lights that you installed. The manufacturer installed a sensor for me. Anytime you're around a BLACK Ninja, the lights will draw 4 times the normal amperage, stopping you dead in the water (or race)!

You know what they say....cheat, cheat, and win. Whatever it takes!
:D:eek: Is that so? Mine has no such sensor, sounds like yours are custom built, for YOU, meaning they will have no effect on my bike :p

Yeah yeah, we know, you must resort to cheating to beat a green bike :rolleyes:

oh, oh....

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/original/WestSideStory_3_12.jpg

oh, oh....

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/original/WestSideStory_3_12.jpg

So, kkim's taking his ball and going home!

So, kkim's taking his ball and going home!

actually I'm trying to share it and the other guys will have none of it. maybe if I were to paint it green??? pshhhh... you should see what I'm doing with my other ball!!! :eek:

So, kkim's taking his ball and going home! Ha ha ha :D

....They were removed in this picture because these were taken when I was installing a jet kit....

sorry, noob question but could someone explain briefly or point me to a link as to what the difference is with shimming and installing a jet kit? is it the needle that is different?

A jet kit is a specifically designed kit that you purchase to improve the jetting in a bike. It usually contains main jets, proprietary adjustable needles and mixture screw recommendations.

Shimming is raising the stock, non adjustable needles by using small washers.

Both shimming and a jet kit are both working to improve jetting of a stock bike. Shimming is crude, effective way to optimize jetting by using what you have to achieve it. It will never be as precise or adjustable as a jet kit, but in the case of our 250Rs, it can improve an otherwise lean stock bike to be a lot more user friendly.

ah ok. thanks.

I don't suppose anyone has any idea how many washers are best? I'd hate to have to do it more than once. :D

Or is it a personal opinion type deal?

Each bike is different. I started with 2 washers and was happy with the results, so I left it this way. I have got the stock can (AreaP Long Quiet Carbon Fibre currently somewhere between the states and NZ on its way here :D ) and the snorkel removed.

Are you running a stock can (exhaust) and snorkel in the airbox still installed?

Each bike is different. I started with 2 washers and was happy with the results, so I left it this way. I have got the stock can (AreaP Long Quiet Carbon Fibre currently somewhere between the states and NZ on its way here :D ) and the snorkel removed.

Are you running a stock can (exhaust) and snorkel in the airbox still installed?
:D
I have a 15" Titanium Area P that is also in transit.....But it's only going from cali to missouri.
No rush tho......spring is still a long way off :(

:D
I have a 15" Titanium Area P that is also in transit.....But it's only going from cali to missouri.
No rush tho......spring is still a long way off :( Nice, great service AreaP have! Yeah, well it is the middle of Summer here :p and damn nice riding weather (if a little hot at times), Autumn is next. I should really take my camera when I go for rides. I found some mint scenery, park her up, take pics with nice scenery in the background :thumbup:

:smow::sick::smow::sick::smow::sick::smow:

*Ahem* :violin: *ahem*

Each bike is different. I started with 2 washers and was happy with the results, so I left it this way. I have got the stock can (AreaP Long Quiet Carbon Fibre currently somewhere between the states and NZ on its way here :D ) and the snorkel removed.

Are you running a stock can (exhaust) and snorkel in the airbox still installed?

Mine is entirely stock. I figure 15 cents for washers is a good investment, though. :D

In that case, I would start with 2 washers and take out the snorkel (it is completely reversable), this will make the bike much nicer to ride, and as you said is only 15 cents.

On a scale of 1 to 10 how hard would you say this mod is? How long does it take? I am familiar with carbs on other things like dirt bikes and 4 wheelers if that makes a difference. I am thinking about doing this, just debating on if I will screw something up...

It is really very easy, as Sam said, easier then the HID DIY.

It really doesn't talk all that long, it depends on how fast you are at taking the fairings and gas tank off. Once they are off, it does not take long. (depending on how many times you change the washers)

I did this all by my lonesome, except for borrowing my hubby to help me get the tank off since I didn't want to drop it or anything, and I did that, an oil change, detailing, and lubing the chain in an afternoon, and that was with a stop to get oil and another stop for the filter... Not a bad project at all.... I'd say maybe a 5 only because it's easy to lose things like fasteners if you're not careful....
Radio Shack has a great deal on washers in this pack:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103391

Sweet thanks everyone....maybe I can get around to it sometime soon (preferably when I am almost out of gas). Maybe make it sound a little better and run smoother with the snorkle removal


He did the HID install in 2 hrs. Shimming shouldn't take longer than 20-30 mins! :D

Ha ha ha sorry, heaven forbid something go as smooth as that did for me. I've just worked on motorcycles all my life as well as cars (although my life isn't that long as I am only 19) but its just something I have always done and have become pretty familiar with how everything works. Not to mention the DIY Pix help wonders as I am a visual learner. Ha ha that is funny though, I can probably bust it on in 20-30 in complete darkness with hurricane like winds ;)

gonna be doing this mod this week. i have one main concern...

when you put the washers on the needle and you go to drop the needle into the vacuum piston, how do you keep the washers from falling off the needle?

thanks.

You can hold the washers and the needle, drop the needle tip into the hole and then just let it down, they won't fall off it the needle is in the hole.

Or you can take the rubber diaphrams off, by poking your finger in the hole where the needle goes, and lift up, that is what I have done.

thanks. i was lightly considering using a weak glue and glueing the washers to the needle, but i won't now.

seems easy enough.

OK, I don't see a need to use glue myself. It is really is easy. I found that the biggest part is the thought of tearing into the engine, but if you take your time and note what you do, it is so easy. :)

you can just use a dab of grease to stick the washers to the needle.

^^Yes I could but as a poor college student the 3 cents for some washers is better then having to buy a jet kit :) I plan on doing this sometime with in the next few weeks, I will take a stop watch out and let ya know what the new record time will be ;) jk

Gary - I just used a dab of Vaseline each time I've done it or helped someone, no problems so far!

kim, thanks for the link about radio shack having the assortment bag of washers. home depot didn't have any and then i remembered your post. now i can put 10 washers on each needle if i need to :D

thanks kelly and kim about the grease and vaseline tip. i don't have any vaseline, but i got some grease. will try that out if i am having problems.

as always, i appreciate the help.

Home Depot and Lowes doesn't have them?

i didn't check lowe's because it was further away and it was getting late, but home depot didn't. the smallest i saw were #6 washers. maybe they had it and i just didn't see it.

Radio Shack...in the small parts area. It will take you longer to find them, than to install them!
that's what i like to hear! that really helps my confidence.

yeah, i picked up the washers at radio shack last night. a friend is going to help me remove the gas tank tonight and hopefully if it doesn't get dark too fast, i will shim the needles and maybe put it back together.

you could easily remove the tank yourself.... it's not that heavy. Just be sure to have a blanket to put it down on and a piece of 2x4 to keep the tank from resting on the fuel petcock.

go for it... you'll most likely be done by the time your friend shows up. :)

the only thing i was worried about was that i don't have a stand, so my bike will be at an angle. i was thinking if i lift it up to get at the hoses, the tank will fall.

sticking a small 2x4 under the rear of the tank once you remove the rear tank bracket will allow it to be raised enough so you can get your hand under the tank to remove the hoses and sender connector. The tank won't fall as it's still being held in place by the front rubber doughnut thingys.

make sure the front wheel is pointed relatively straight to avoid hitting the front edge of the tank when you raise up the back of the tank.

Kelly said all you need to do :thumbup:

I don't have stands and all work I have done is with the side stand down.

thanks for the tips. my friend and i work together, so we walked over to my house after work and he helped me with the tank. after he left, i shimmed the needles and put the tank back on myself. you are right. i didn't really need his help.

gotta take the bike for a test ride after dinner. this wasn't hard at all. i am glad i bought the JIS screw bits because it made it so easy.

i couldn't find my magnetic wand to get the needles out, but i used a pair of tweezers as suggested and that worked.

thanks everybody! feels so good to do this myself instead of going to a shop for this.

How many washers did you end up using under each needle? did you start the bike up after you were done just to double check your work?

be sure to post your impressions after your ride. :)

i used 2 washers. i started it up and rode around my parking level a bit to make sure it seemed ok. going for a ride after american idol.

what a total difference! i guess all of you already know that, but the bike is so much more fun now. really responsive.

one thing... in my haste to beat the sunset, on one side, i am not sure if i put the spring in the protruding area of the center of the cap. how would i know if i didn't re-assemble it right? seems to run fine. would hate to tear apart the bike again just to see that it was put together right after all. what symptoms would an improperly re-assembled carb make?

thanks... i feel dumb.

if the bike runs fine, I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep it in mind to check it if you are ever back in there.

I would guess if you didn't the spring centered on one side, it would affect how the slides went up and down in the carb body. That would cause the 2 carbs to be out of sync and you would hear a rhythmic beating of the engine as you accelerated in the midrange. Also, the top end might be affected if the carb slide was somehow not allowed to go all the way to the top at full throttle. That it's running fine tells me you're okay. if it does seem weird, you know where to check first.

feel dumb?? why?? you've done what most fear to do.

congrats on making your bike a lot more user friendly and fun. :thumbup:

Okay, well I just got back from TRYING to get washers. I went to 2 Radioshacks, Autozone, Checker, Home Depot, and lowes. Nobody has them! The radio shack had an assortment but it was 2,4,6, and 8 sizes. Anybody got any other ideas?

front rubber doughnut thingys.

Kelly is that a Kawasaki proprietary technical term:rolleyes:

Okay, well I just got back from TRYING to get washers. I went to 2 Radioshacks, Autozone, Checker, Home Depot, and lowes. Nobody has them! The radio shack had an assortment but it was 2,4,6, and 8 sizes. Anybody got any other ideas?

You could take the 2mm and a small round file or drill bit and make it a 3mm. It's not that much metal to take out.

the assortment is what you need - it's the #4

Levi,

The 2,4,6 and 8 are not metric are they? That is a US sizing scheme, correct?

Try looking for metric 3mm washers or order the washers through Radio Shack online that Noche mentioned.

OG... yes, that's the Kawasaki technical term for them thingys. :confused:

Levi,
OG... yes, that's the Kawasaki technical term for them thingys. :confused:

Well hell that shows you what I know.

lol... I'm kidding. I don't know what the hell they call them things! :p

lol... I'm kidding. :p

So was I - got you :D

So was I - got you :D

damned kids!!! :mad:

the assortment is what you need - it's the #4

yeah, problem is that you get 100 washers, 20 of which are #4. then again, they are only like $2.00 for the whole thing.

i preferred spending the 2 bucks than keep on searching around for them.

"I originally used 4mm washers (as pictured) which were too big and the spring holding the needle down was not holding it down. and I have since gone to 3mm and these are perfect." as quoted by david (viper byte)

I can go grab the pack, but I looked online and there is a local fastenal that has some 3mm washers for .04 cents each. http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=71002#caddrawings

Does that look right to you guys? If not I will just go over to radio shack and use the 4

Levi,

The 2,4,6 and 8 are not metric are they? That is a US sizing scheme, correct?

Try looking for metric 3mm washers or order the washers through Radio Shack online that Noche mentioned.

OG... yes, that's the Kawasaki technical term for them thingys. :confused:

I am pretty sure that is metric by the way kelly, otherwise wouldn't it be like a 1/16" washer or something like that???

afaik, the #4 washers does not mean 4 mm.

the #4 will fit fine.

ok, i found a chart. a #4 washer has a 0.125" inner diameter. which equals 3.175 mm.

anyways, yeah the radio shack #4 washer that comes in that assortment pack will work.

ok, i found a chart. a #4 washer has a 0.125" inner diameter. which equals 3.175 mm.

anyways, yeah the radio shack #4 washer that comes in that assortment pack will work.

good work, Gary! :thumbup:

:goodjobsign: Gary - good detective work.

So am i not better off to to go by the 4 or 6 3mm washers for .04 cents each?

So am i not better off to to go by the 4 or 6 3mm washers for .04 cents each?
oh yeah. definitely.... if you can find them. i am sure there MUST be a store that sells them individually.

seems like you already went to 6 stores looking for them. i guess i am lazy and would rather pay the extra dollar+change and be done with it. you can always use the remaining washers and play tiddlywinks or something. :) j/k.

btw, thanks for the props guys :o

Ha ha well I think that is what I will do then, the only reason why i went to so many stores is to find the darned things because I didn't think all the other ones were the right size. Thanks a lot for looking that up as well, helped out a ton.

I think i figured it out on the calculator...the link I posted was the #3 washer. it is .109 inches wich i figured to be 2.7686mm. Anybody know how big the needle is? Or should i just go spend the 2 bucks and use the #4 ahhahhaa

Ha ha assuming I have all the tools and supplies ready to go I could crank it out in under 20 ;) ha ha. Well I am just gonna run to radio shak and pick up that pack of washers today and most likely do the mod this weekend.

Just finished doing it and removing the snorkle, took me about 45 minute...damn missed the record time ;). Seems to be more responsive now and sounds much better.

how many washers did you end up with under each needle?

I ended up with 2 and it seems to be great. It seems to be a great mod and very easy. Especially the snorkel, basically no effort to take that thing out.

cool... glad it worked out for you. some have not been as fortunate. :thumbup:

Yeah wind was a factor....but as long as i had my harness on with a rope tied to the tree i was fine . It did make things a little bit more difficult. Try holding on the the fairing in hurricane like winds, its pretty tuff ;)

After riding this for the last couple of days I don't know what my impression is... I removed the snorkel and shimmed the needles. The top end definatly improved and pulls much harder from 8 grand up to red line. But the low end is really struggling now. What would you recommend I do? Put the snorkel back in and see waht that does? Add more washers?

define "struggling"

Like I give it gas (half throttle, full throttle, doesn't really matter) in the low RPM range (anywhere between 3 and 6 RPM) and it just luggs. Like doesn't even want to get up and go until about 7 grand. I really don't want to have to get back into the carbrator, but if thats what it takes i guess i will have to do that.

does it idle fine??? steady like before?

You definately can't leave it like it is. Either take one out or put another in. I'd guess take one out.

Did it not act like this before you shimmed?

Are you sure everything is back together correctly? Double check your work before you start taking the carbs apart again.

It idles beautifully just like before. It wasn't like this before I did the shim. Its much better in the top end like i said before, but bottom end suffers greatly. Should I put the snorkle back in and see if that changes anything? Or just take it apart and take one out/put one in, whatever it takes. I am 99% sure all of it is hooked up correctly.

start with the easiest thing first. putting the snorkel back in isn't as easy as taking it out, but for now you can get it "sorta" in there and then use the results to figure out which way you need to go with the shimming.

Sounds good...I will do some work on it this weekend and be posting up to see what you guys think I should do....after snorkel re-install....and then again if i need to pull/replace some more washers.

Levi,

any update on your problem?

Sorry, some not so good weather here this weekend, and I was really busy. I will try and throw the snorkle back in sometime this week and see what it does. If that doesn't work I will pull it apart and add/take out a shim.

Mine is entirely stock. I figure 15 cents for washers is a good investment, though. :D

so, Sean... did you ever shim yours?

Still no update for me...sorry. I will let ya know as soon as i get around to it.,

i am getting the dynojet jet kit. i figure i will need it when i win the ap exhaust raffle. :D

anyways, has anyone who shimmed the needles using this diy gone over to the dynojet kit and noticed any difference? just the needle mod.

wondering if it is worth it to break open the kit to shim the needles or just to wait.

Still haven't done anything with mine....school has been hecktic all week!!

i am getting the dynojet jet kit. i figure i will need it when i win the ap exhaust raffle. :D

anyways, has anyone who shimmed the needles using this diy gone over to the dynojet kit and noticed any difference? just the needle mod.

wondering if it is worth it to break open the kit to shim the needles or just to wait.

The kit actually recommends a smaller jet than the factory one. I just replaced the factory needles, per the directions (clip in 3rd slot, 2 washers on top of first clip, and a clip on top). Should be a good start for the AP exhaust. :thumbup:

sam, thanks for the info... but as it is now.... stock with only the snorkel removed, i did the diy shimming of the needles using 2 washers.

if i don't win the ap exhaust (although i wil. power of positive thinking :), would i notice any difference if i used the dynojet needles putting the clip on the 3rd slot? or would it basically be the same as what i have right now? this is assuming that i don't change the jets and all i did was that needle mod. thanks.

sam, thanks for the info... but as it is now.... stock with only the snorkel removed, i did the diy shimming of the needles using 2 washers.

if i don't win the ap exhaust (although i wil. power of positive thinking :), would i notice any difference if i used the dynojet needles putting the clip on the 3rd slot? or would it basically be the same as what i have right now? this is assuming that i don't change the jets and all i did was that needle mod. thanks.
Gary, I can't speak to the shimming of the stock needles, as all I did was install the dynojet needles and pull the snorkel. If you have the same kit that I have, the instructions say the kit is fine with or without the after market exhaust!

I'm not changing the exhaust on mine, as it runs great as is. I bought this bike to improve my riding skills and be safe. It is fast enough for me. With the extended warranty, if I need to place a claim, I only have to pop the OEM needles back in, reinstall the snorkel, and recap the carb mixture screws.

Kelly (kkim) has a lot more knowledge/experience with the needle shimming and can probably answer your questions. :thumbup:

Here's the Stage 2 Dynojet install instructions. They are availabe at dynojet's web page, as well.

thanks! i have a chance to get a new kit for kind of cheap, so i was wondering if it was worth it to buy it or not. will probably get it if the sale goes through.

sorry Gary, you're not going to win - I am!

thanks! i have a chance to get a new kit for kind of cheap, so i was wondering if it was worth it to buy it or not. will probably get it if the sale goes through.

The factory needles are $19 each. I got the entire kit (eBay) for $45 and only used the needles!

The jet kit adds tunability and a smoother power curve. It also richens up the low end as the needle taper is very different from the stock needles. Having said all of this, you most likely would not notice that much difference in just swapping out the needles from the shimmed stock needles. The real improvement comes when you tune the mixture screws and that can be done even without buying a jet kit.

I rode around w/ my area P exhaust, no snorkel and 3 shims under the needles for a few months before installing the jet kit. The only reason I went with a jet kit was because I removed the airbox and went with the r0990 K&N filter at the same time and doing all that work at the same time made sense.

If you have not bought the jet kit yet, wait until you get the exhaust and have added a total of 3 shims to the needles before you decide. I think you will be surprised how smooth the power is with just those mods.

If you have not bought the jet kit yet, wait until you get the exhaust and have added a total of 3 shims to the needles before you decide. I think you will be surprised how smooth the power is with just those mods.

:whathesaid:

sorry Gary, you're not going to win - I am!

well, if you win, i will be happy too.

thanks for the help ppl. if i can't get the kit at the cheaper price, i will just wait then.

so, Sean... did you ever shim yours?

I just bought the washers today. Lowes didn't have them, and Radio Shack is more of a gadget store nowadays. Ace Hardware had brass #4 flat washers for 9 cents a piece. I bought 6 and plan to start adding only 2 per needle and see what happens.

The Ninja's on stands right now and I'll roll up my sleeves and take a stab at it tomorrow.

I was able to get all the way to the carb covers.




Then I stripped a screw head on the right carb. :(

I tried for half an hour to use everything at my disposal to get a grip on that screw for naught. What did they make those things out of, lead?? I decided enough was enough and put my Ninjette's clothes back on.

I put everything back together, making sure the bike was able to run before putting the fairing back on, and it's back to its old stock self. I did get healthy understanding with everything I did today, though.

Perhaps I'll try the DIY throttle slop fix. :)

you should use the JIS screw bits or screwdriver. it firmly grabs the screw and it will remove very easily.

also, if you use an offset driver like the skewdriver i have, it will make the job a lot easier as well.

http://www.spectools.com/products/SP-1001.gif

Then I stripped a screw head on the right carb. :

I have been there and done that myself... What I ended up doing was pulling the carbs right out (not as hard as what I thought) and using a pair of vice grips to get the screw out. I have since replaced them with allen head screws and no more problems :thumbup:

I was able to get all the way to the carb covers.

Then I stripped a screw head on the right carb. :(

I tried for half an hour to use everything at my disposal to get a grip on that screw for naught. What did they make those things out of, lead?? I decided enough was enough and put my Ninjette's clothes back on.

I put everything back together, making sure the bike was able to run before putting the fairing back on, and it's back to its old stock self. I did get healthy understanding with everything I did today, though.

Perhaps I'll try the DIY throttle slop fix. :)

Sean,

sorry to hear that.:(

yes, you need to be very careful with those screws and apply downward pressure before you apply sideways torque other wise you end up stripping the heads. the real solution is to get the JIS screwdrivers, but I have had mine off/on many times and the screws are still in good shape, so there is a method to the madness.

Is there enough room to grab the screw head with long nose vise grip pliers?

http://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/V4LN.jpg

what DIY throttle stop fix?:confused:

I was thinking vice grips, don't have a pair of needle nose but there's hardly enough room to maneuver a screwdriver shaft, much less anything bigger. I didn't even know JIS screw bits existed before attempting the mod!

I could have sworn I saw a throttle slop fix that involved a zip tie on the kawiforums, but I may have been dreaming it - I'm beat now. :D

yes, there is a zip tie mod to make a quicker turning throttle.

http://www.ninja6zone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=842

I'm thinking I may be able to attack that stripped screw from the side. Will save that for another weekend, though.

If you have a way of catching any debris by covering up everything surrounding the stripped screw head then cut into the head and make a deep slot with a Dremel cutting bit (I'm assuming it's a buttonhead, I've never looked at the carbs myself) and then use a flathead to unscrew it. I've used this trick even on threadlocked screws, works well.

hmm... andy, i never thought of that. i gotta file that one away in the old memory bank. i got one of those "stripped screw removers" from sears. used it once in the past. similar to the grabbit, but no need to pre-drill it.

it's a trick I use a lot on RC cars. Someone in that hobby showed it to me once. Those screw removers work well too, I was always too cheap to buy one :p

also, if you use an offset driver like the skewdriver i have, it will make the job a lot easier as well.

http://www.spectools.com/products/SP-1001.gif

that thing works great. Ask me how I know....

If you have a way of catching any debris by covering up everything surrounding the stripped screw head then cut into the head and make a deep slot with a Dremel cutting bit (I'm assuming it's a buttonhead, I've never looked at the carbs myself) and then use a flathead to unscrew it. I've used this trick even on threadlocked screws, works well.

I've had to do that before, works pretty good if you have the space and can all the FOD out or can take the carbs all the way out.

nb

what do you mean you dont have to remove those black things to remove the needle? how else would you get to the needle it looks like it is under them right? ( the 2 round black things that you could strip the screw head easily on )

Angelo, You must remove the carb covers. the needles are below them. I believe this is what you are talking about.

You do not however have to remove the rubber diaphrams that the needles sit in, a set of tweasers, or small long nose pliers will get the needles out.

thanks david
attempting this next weekend, unless i decide to get a jet-kitt n have a shop install it, depending on the price.

No worries Angelo,

I suggest if you do get a Jet kit, read up on the DIYs etc on here and attempt it yourself. It really is not hard at all, I was surprised, taking the carbs out (can be done without taking them out though) looks a lot worse than what it actually is.

Hey guys, I just got a green 250 and I'm planning on going home to shim my needles and do the snorkel mod this weekend (I'm at school bike is at home :()

Anyways, I read on the kawiforums that if I do this mod, my bike runs a slight possibility of being too lean at wide open throttle, and that runs the risk of burning some engine components. Anyone know anything about this?

I currently have an AP full exhaust on it. I'll probably do 3 washers, but does anyone know about the burning / overheating the engine issue? I don't wanna do this if it risks my engine being too lean and overheating at WOT.

Any input is appreciated, thanks.

Wen, 3 washers should be fine, kkim was running 3 washers with the same setup, so you should be fine.
Just feel what the bike is saying, take it for a ride and WOT it right to the redline, notice how it pulls, do the mod and test it again and see how it pulls. It will be noticable if the washers are not correct.

Anyways, I read on the kawiforums that if I do this mod, my bike runs a slight possibility of being too lean at wide open throttle, and that runs the risk of burning some engine components. Anyone know anything about this?

I currently have an AP full exhaust on it. I'll probably do 3 washers, but does anyone know about the burning / overheating the engine issue? I don't wanna do this if it risks my engine being too lean and overheating at WOT.

mind pointing out the reference to this? in all my time on that forum, I never saw any mention of this.

I don't think the washers have anything to do with a lean condition at wide-open throttle and high-revs. At that point needle will be almost all the way out whether there are washers lifting it or not. I'd think the question is, with the snorkel removed and a more free-flowing exhaust, can the carbs get enough fuel into the mixture to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio at max-rpm, max throttle?

I don't know the answer to that, but if the answer is that the carbs can't, then there may be actual needle changes necessary, and shimming won't fix the problem. If the answer is that they can, then once again the washers don't matter.

Lean conditions at higher RPMs can be corrected via larger jets. Of course, that will also cause richer conditions at lower RPMs, as well. YMMV :D

mind pointing out the reference to this? in all my time on that forum, I never saw any mention of this.

here it a link to it.

http://www.kawiforums.com/showthread.php?p=1181616&highlight=burn#post1181616

im just worried that if i have it WOT too much it'll ruin my parts :/

lol... good ole duck. :)

very simply, there are 3 parts to the carb jetting. the idle, midrange and top end. the idle circuit is handled by the idle mixture screw and the pilot jet. the midrange by the needle that we are talking about shimming and the top end by the main jet.

the idle circuit and midrange are lean from the factory. instead of doing both, we are raising the needles with the washers to richen where the needle comes into play with the idle circuit. By raising it, we let in more gas/air mixture earlier when we turn the throttle, which in turn makes more power. the net effect is that the bike's power feel "fatter" from right off the bottom.

On the other hand, the stock 98 main jet is a bit too rich from the factory, so pulling the snorkel out actually leans out the bike a bit and makes the 98 main just about perfect for the top end.

Pulling the snorkel, though, will lean out the mixture from idle to top end and the idle and midrange will suffer if you don't compensate for it by richening the mixture by shimming. That is why in my DIY on pulling the snorkel I recommended only pulling it after the needles were shimmed.

The best time to remove the snorkel is when you do the shimming.

On my bike, with an area p QC exhaust, I ran with 3 washers under each needle with the snorkel removed. It ran fine in that configuration and at no time did the top end suffer from being too lean with the stock 98 main jets.

The above advice is all with you using the stock airbox. If you remove the airbox, everything changes.

Do it, you'll be fine. :)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_geC920GCq38/SLkSz8IDsVI/AAAAAAAAA0E/b4DqoHye5fg/s640/DSC04542-1.JPG

I think I will attempt to shim the needles this weekend...are there any long term adverse effects to removing the snorkel if I am shimming the needles as well?

I've had my snorkel out for about 6000 miles. No problems yet. :)

I think I will attempt to shim the needles this weekend...are there any long term adverse effects to removing the snorkel if I am shimming the needles as well?

give me the intake and exhaust mods made to your bike and I can kinda give you a ballpark area on how many washers to use. :)

For a slip on exhaust- is shimming the needles and and pulling the snorkel enough to run the slip on without a decrease in performance?

yes.

give me the intake and exhaust mods made to your bike and I can kinda give you a ballpark area on how many washers to use. :)

I'm all stock. Should I start with 2 washers if I pull the snorkel as well??
Posted via Mobile Device

yes, stock w/ snorkel pulled, try 2 washers to start. be careful when loosening the screws on the top of the carbs. Long #2 phillips and lots of downward pressure before you turn the screw. If it starts to slip out, apply more downward pressure until it turns w/o trying to slip out of the screwhead.

those screws have caused more problems with this mod. second biggest problem... use the correct sized washers. 3mm or 4mm washers will do. I used 3mm.

GL
:)

Lots of downwards pressure and correct washer size-Got it!!

Hopefully I'll be able to get this done this weekend.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yep, I think that's it...

oh... take lots and lots of revealing, closeup pics. And some of the bike too. :D

^

http://musikality.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/shocked.jpg

I just added two 3mm today... took me forever to find them as Radioshack, and Lowe's & Home Depot only go as small as 4mm. Anyways what a day just to find them.. I eventually found them at Fry's Electronics (if you guys have that store in your area).

You guys are right, the carb screws are a PIA!, but after time, I was successful. After I put the tank and seat back on I was about to take it for a test run when it started raining :sad:. As another test, I decided to start it without choke, since I've heard shimming makes starting easier even without choke. It started, but the engine had some struggle to stay running, though it did stay on. Not sure if that is normal on a cold start without choke, or if it really should start up and not struggle at all. However, I'm a bit skeptical as to if I need to add another washer since the thickness of the ones I bought from the electronic store seem pretty slim. I have a FMF Apex slip-on btw. Hopefully roads are dry enough tomorrow for me to see how it performs.

You still need to use some choke at start up. it should warm up faster though. Once it warms, try revving it a bit and see if it will rev past 5-6K. Some people that have had problems couldn't rev past that mark.

no matter what the thickness of the washers, you're in a better (richer) situation than you were before shimming. You should see some improvement with the addition of the washers.

did you pull the snorkel off too? I would recommend doing so at this time so you can compensate for that too in your final shimming.

Just tested throttle response on my bike after adding those 2 washers from the electronic store and removing the snorkel. I feel the smoothness start to kick in at just about 2.5k. I'm thinking it's best to add another. I know that this mod can also involve personal preference as to what the rider likes, but do you agree I should add another?

did you ride the bike around until it's fully warmed up (10-15 minutes) and then test the throttle response while actually riding the bike or did you just warm it up in the garage and are basing your findings on a static load?

yes I let it warm up. I rode it down my block, testing with the throttle in first gear.

at this point, you know best about what it might need. You won't screw anything up by adding another washer, as if you go too rich, the bike will just feel really flat at the rich spot with no chance of engine damage. You will want to change it back, though, if you are too rich.

Experiment... there is no set rule about this as every bike differs a bit. 2.5k is pretty low for this bike, though. you actually ride it at that rpm?

Did the shims help with the takeoff smoothness and power at the lower (below 5K) rpms?

let us know your results.
:)

2.5k is pretty low for this bike, though. you actually ride it at that rpm?

Did the shims help with the takeoff smoothness and power at the lower (below 5K) rpms?

let us know your results.
:)

haha no I dont ride it at that rpm, but I just like a smooth take off from idle. they did help with smoothness prior to 5k, it's just I didnt feel it start until 2.5K.

I'll try adding another and see how it goes. maybe even upload some pics if I take some.

that would be helpful if you take some pics of removing the screws from the carb tops and the springs and clips inside the carb tops once you get them off. seems like there are still some that are a bit spooked about what to do once the tops are removed.

mahalo

ps- when I was playing with shimming, I would just put the tank and seat back on and go out and test. Saved putting the bottom fairings back on. you just need to use hand signals for turns as the blinkers won't work with the front blinkers not hooked up. ;)

..you just need to use hand signals for turns as the blinkers won't work with the front blinkers not hooked up. ;)

don't forget to open and close your hand to simulate the blinking. ok, dumb joke.


hey, about the petcock leaking gas... i helped visus today with shimming of his carbs. when we removed the larger hose on the petcock, fuel started dripping out. quickly at first, then about once every 3-4 seconds. that didn't happen when i did mine and when i helped ninjabrewer. i did it in the exact same order as the last two bikes. large tube on the side, larger tube on petcock, and smaller tube on petcock.

it didn't stop dripping, so we set the tank down (with a 2x4 on one end so the petcock was off the floor) and i put some paper towels under it to catch the gas. when we were ready to put the tank back on, i checked and it had stopped dripping... although, when i touched the tip of the petcock, it dripped a couple more times.

i wonder why it is that there are so many faulty petcocks? i wonder if the amount of gas in the tank has anything to do with it? visus' tank was pretty full. although, ninjabrewers was pretty full as well. i don't know. doesn't make sense to me.

I've taken my tank off when it was pretty full and have never had a problem. diaphragm inside the petcock could be defective. wonder if it has anything with the ethanol we use in Hawaii... hope not.

Diaphragms fail... fact of life.

BTW, how did the shimming go and is he happy with the results?

shimming went ok. like ninjabrewers fairing and your windscreen rubber nut, one of his ripped in half. we were able to get it back on though by holding the broken piece in place from behind while screwing in the screw (props to nb on that one).

as far as his impression, i don't know. he left after we were done. he said he was going to give a report later on.

yeah, i was really surprised when his petcock started leaking. i wasn't prepared for that. when we crack open another oxygen tank at work, i am going to take the rubber nipple cover in case i ever come across that situation again.

Ok tell me if this is not weird.. I added the 3rd washer on. I start up my bike w/ choke on. Before, even without shimmed needles, when I had the choke on to warm up the bike, it would hit at least 4K, maybe a little over. Yet this time, it only went up as high as 3.5K with choke on to warm it up. Is this normal?

mine is the same. 4k+ stock, 3.5k now.

Sound Wave and I shimmed my needles with 2 washers each needle and removed the snorkel. Thanks a lot to him!
It does feel smoother, however, coming from a standing stop in first gear, it seems to feel and sound like it wants to stall. Is that normal or am I not used to having the snorkel out?

Ok tell me if this is not weird.. I added the 3rd washer on. I start up my bike w/ choke on. Before, even without shimmed needles, when I had the choke on to warm up the bike, it would hit at least 4K, maybe a little over. Yet this time, it only went up as high as 3.5K with choke on to warm it up. Is this normal?

doesn't really matter. what matters is that after the bike warms up it idles at 1500. does it?

btw, it isn't good for the bike to idle at 3.5-4.5 at startup. I play with the choke lever once the bike is started to try to keep the idle revs at about 2-2.5K. it's a touchy thing and just a slight movement of my choke lever will let the idle drop significantly at one point.

Don't treat the choke lever as a digital device, but more like analogue.

Sound Wave and I shimmed my needles with 2 washers each needle and removed the snorkel. Thanks a lot to him!
It does feel smoother, however, coming from a standing stop in first gear, it seems to feel and sound like it wants to stall. Is that normal or am I not used to having the snorkel out?

how many shims did you put in and any exhaust mods?

the shimming should have made the off idle power a bit stronger. Yes, removing the snorkel does seem to reduce the midrange a bit, but you are suffering power loss at the low end. that is a bit strange. :confused:

how many shims did you put in and any exhaust mods?

the shimming should have made the off idle power a bit stronger. Yes, removing the snorkel does seem to reduce the midrange a bit, but you are suffering power loss at the low end. that is a bit strange. :confused:

No exhaust mods. 2 shims each needle.

Would replacing the snorkel help?

i don't think putting the snorkel in would help from a standing stop. that is strange. i guess try using more throttle when starting off... you shouldn't have to, but it may help.

edit: pm sent

hmmm... all the vacuum hoses get hooked back up correctly? when you first started it after the shimmimg, did it idle okay?

hmmm... all the vacuum hoses get hooked back up correctly? when you first started it after the shimmimg, did it idle okay?

Rode it again. Idles ok. I am able to go from 0 to highway speeds fine, so it may not be a loss in low end power. Could be that I just need to slip the clutch & give more throttle like Gary said. That and the throatier sound is maybe throwing me off.

Could be that I just need to slip the clutch & give more throttle like Gary said.

mmmm... that's exactly the point of shimming. it should make it so you require less revving and clutch slipping to get the bike moving from a stop.

as a test, stick the snorkel back in there and see how you like it. it's not hard, but it's not easy, either. You don't need to get it back in there perfect, just stick it in the best you can and see if that improves the low end power you're seeking.

So i was able to go home this weekend for less than 24 hours. I spent the majority of the time working on the bike. Here is what I got done:

1) I shimmed the needles to 3 washers, It runs great :p I notice a significant increase in power, especially in the mid range, I don't really have to keep it in the high rpm range to get power out of it. However, with this performance increase, there is a trade-off. I got about 42 MPG today, traveling on about 95 miles from my home to school, the whole time i was goin about 85, just to give you all an idea of the rpm range it was around 10k the whole time.

2) I also got to put on flush mounts :D.

3) I did a fender eliminator and bought license plate light bolts to use as my license plate lights.

The bike runs great, and is beautiful, I'll post pics when I get a chance. Thanks for all your help everyone who contributed to the forums.

yes, there is always a trade off with any engine performance mod. the question one must answer is... is it worth it?

I think you'll find your mpg will fluctuate dependant on how vigorously you twist the throttle. :D

have fun, ride safe. :thumbup:

doesn't really matter. what matters is that after the bike warms up it idles at 1500. does it?

btw, it isn't good for the bike to idle at 3.5-4.5 at startup. I play with the choke lever once the bike is started to try to keep the idle revs at about 2-2.5K. it's a touchy thing and just a slight movement of my choke lever will let the idle drop significantly at one point.

Don't treat the choke lever as a digital device, but more like analogue.

Ok, then I guess this is normal since it does idle at 1.5K or close to it.. it's not way off or anything. (I actually keep it a little below like 1.4 or 1350, so it was about right for me.)

Yeah I know what you mean about choke lever.. it's pretty sensitive. When I warm up, I also adjust to also keep it at 2.5K until fully warm.

I shimmed the needles to 3 washers, It runs great :p I notice a significant increase in power, especially in the mid range, I don't really have to keep it in the high rpm range to get power out of it. However, with this performance increase, there is a trade-off. I got about 42 MPG today, traveling on about 95 miles from my home to school, the whole time i was goin about 85, just to give you all an idea of the rpm range it was around 10k the whole time.

Did you remove the snorkel? http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10090

As Kelly says, this helps the bike run leaner, so it may help some.

yes, stock w/ snorkel pulled, try 2 washers to start. be careful when loosening the screws on the top of the carbs. Long #2 phillips and lots of downward pressure before you turn the screw. If it starts to slip out, apply more downward pressure until it turns w/o trying to slip out of the screwhead.

those screws have caused more problems with this mod. second biggest problem... use the correct sized washers. 3mm or 4mm washers will do. I used 3mm.

GL
:)

Thanks kkim this answered my question.

did you mean a 3mm or #4 washers will work?

Thanks kkim this answered my question.

did you mean a 3mm or #4 washers will work?

No, I meant either a 3 or 4 mm washer, but I see I was mistaken. I would recommend using a 3mm, if you can find it. if not, someone measured a #4 washer and I do believe you are correct that a #4 washer will work, too.

yes, a #4 will work...
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Washers_for_carb_needles

hmmm... all the vacuum hoses get hooked back up correctly? when you first started it after the shimmimg, did it idle okay?
yes. the vent hose (i believe that is what it is called), the fuel and the vacuum hose are on correctly.

mmmm... that's exactly the point of shimming. it should make it so you require less revving and clutch slipping to get the bike moving from a stop.


yeah, it was just a thought.

todd, yeah maybe sometime this week we can meet up after work and switch bikes so we can see if and what the difference between the two is. but yeah, kelly is right... it should be easier, not trickier, to start from a stop. i can also give you a hand sticking the snorkel back in if you want. going to pm you again.

yes. the vent hose (i believe that is what it is called), the fuel and the vacuum hose are on correctly.



on the left carb, when you take the top off, I had to disconnect two vacuum hoses to that round thing that hangs off the left side of the carb. could those hoses been switched? I know they are of a slightly different diameters, but did you get them back on correctly?

in this picture it's the little round thing right above the clear filter...
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_geC920GCq38/SLkSkS4h2bI/AAAAAAAAAxY/EZ4a6oMm8yA/s640/DSC04521-1.JPG

whenever i did this mod, the carb end hoses were not touched. i was able to get the cover off without really disturbing them. the cover was lifted up slightly so as not to damage the spring, then the cover was slid out under those hoses.

the only hoses that we removed were the 3 on the gas tank end.

No, I meant either a 3 or 4 mm washer, but I see I was mistaken. I would recommend using a 3mm, if you can find it. if not, someone measured a #4 washer and I do believe you are correct that a #4 washer will work, too.

yes, a #4 will work...
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Washers_for_carb_needles

Not to make things more complicated here but I remember reading somewhere that there was a problem with different washer thickness. Any recommendations?

I went out today trying to look for 3mm flat washers around my area but with no luck. I searched on ebay and I found some. http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-Dubro-Flat-Washers-3mm-8-2-packages-2109_W0QQitemZ380106312014QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRadio_Control_Parts_Accessories?_tr ksid=p3286.m20.l1116<-- is this the right size? I just want to make sure.

no, not really. Even if the washers are of a bit different thicknesses, each bike is a bit different, so there is no set formula that will work in every case. You make your changes, see how it affects the bike and either add/subtract washers or leave as is.

It's close enough to get you started... you just need to fine tune from there.

And is it that actual jet kits can tune even finer? Or is this a different part of the spectrum?

different part of the spectrum, though they all sort of overlap. main way to affect/tune the midrange, though, is through the needles.

See this thread: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10246

Posts 12-13 :thumbup:

Here is another link which describes "how to tune" your carbs for better performance:

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/motorcycle_jet_kits_carburetion/index.html

A follow on article:

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/find_carburetion_problems/index.html

http://image.motorcyclecruiser.com/f/8699528/Throtindex-xl.jpg

Anyone have the replacement screw size for these SOB's??

I'm going to shim my needles this weekend. With all the mention of how tight the carb cover screws are, how tight do they need to be retightened to? Is snug good enough so it's not a PITA to remove them a second time if needed?
The factory really seems to overtighten things. I almost needed a breaker bar to get the oil drain plug and filter cover off the first time. I torqued them to spec when done and it wasn't near wheat the factory did.:eek:

I'm going to shim my needles this weekend. With all the mention of how tight the carb cover screws are, how tight do they need to be retightened to? Is snug good enough so it's not a PITA to remove them a second time if needed?

I retightened mine to be snug.. especially the black ones as these seem to be the easiest to strip. The way I see it is, it's either do that, or go buy some better quality replacement screws that won't strip as easy

To solve my problems with weak power in the low end after shimming, Sound Wave suggested to increase the idle speed (I was running at around 900-1,000 after the shimming). We boosted it to about 1,400 and it's better now.

So, Todd... is the bike easier to ride now than before you did the mod?

... or go buy some better quality replacement screws that won't strip as easy
some have replaced the screws with allen head screws to make it easier to remove in the future. if you've stripped the stock butter head screws, that seems the best alternative. :)

I'm going to shim my needles this weekend. With all the mention of how tight the carb cover screws are, how tight do they need to be retightened to? Is snug good enough so it's not a PITA to remove them a second time if needed?

it is not that they are tight. it is just that they aren't actually phillips screws. they are JIS screws. if you have a JIS screw bit, it comes out REALLY easily.

but yeah, if you don't have one of those and you do manage to get them off, it is better to switch them out for an allen or something.

So, Todd... is the bike easier to ride now than before you did the mod?

Yes, it's not as jerky in the low gears / going slow.

Not crazy about the exhaust note, but I can live with it.

Not crazy about the exhaust note, but I can live with it. you mean because of the snorkel removal? if so, put it back in. :confused:

yeah visus, sorry for not catching the idle thing the first time when you came over for the mod. i forgot.

if you don't like the exhaust sound, i can help you stick the snorkel back in. you can also try out my k&n filter to see if you like the sound it gives before you decide to get one or not.

or I could get a new exhaust! :)

Thanks for the offer, Gary. I'll think about what I want to do.

or I could get a new exhaust! :)

area P, area P, area P, area P, area P... :D

Soundwave, tnx for the heads up on the JIS screws. I haven't taken the gas tank off yet, would a 6" screwdriver be long enough to reach the screws? I found a 6" or 12" #2 JIS screwdriver for $7.50 on the web. I'd rather spend the money than have to fart around with a stripped screw head because the screwdriver cammed out of the head. Definately looking forward to getting this done. This is the most cold blooded bike I've ever owned. Once it's warmed up good no problem, otherwise forget it. I hate to see what it's going to be like next winter. I ride year round regardless of the temp:eek: Tnx again for your help---Ted

Two of the screws will need an offset type of screwdriver to remove them without damage. I have the JIS screwdriver set and I still had to use the offset driver with a #2 phillips bit and lots of pressure. I didn't damage any of the screws.

The 12" JIS screwdriver should work.

I've been using a 12" #2 phillips and can access all of the carb top screws using it.... no offset needed. I would highly recommend getting the 12" JIS screwdriver if you would like to prevent future headaches.

Today I got up early to wash my bike, shim the needles, and remove that funny rubber snorkel. I used four of those #4 washers from Radioshack's assorted pack on each needle (they are very thin) so it adjusted the needle about as much as in the picture Kelly posted. I just got everything back together and went for a test ride and I'm really happy with the results. :D

It used to feel starved for gas especially up at 10-12k but everything feels much smoother now and there is less hesitation. The bike also is beginning to sound like it wants to get something done.

ahhh.... another satisfied customer. :thumbup:

guess I better get back to the factory and make more washers. :D

Wish it would have worked for me. I'm one of the few that it did not work for. But, I normally do not need to use my choke....except here in march.

Tempted to jet it and get an Area P... just can't justify the price right now. Taking the mrs. to Vegas next month...if I hit a big score I will farkle it out like a mutha.

yeah... I remember that. :(

Yeah, I appreciated your help and remember it was late at night when I came in from the garage. Figured you would be online for advice given the time difference.

But then again when are you not online??? Must be logging on from your phone too, I bet.

lol... you would think so, but I hardly even use my cell phone for phone calls. :p

just sit in front of a computer all day and I've got the marks to prove it. :asshat:

Soundwave, tnx for the heads up on the JIS screws. I haven't taken the gas tank off yet, would a 6" screwdriver be long enough to reach the screws? I found a 6" or 12" #2 JIS screwdriver for $7.50 on the web.

well, what i bought was the JIS screw bits and i used it in my offset driver. it can reach workspaces tighter than a shorty can get to. a couple screws would have been hard to get to otherwise imo. apparently a 12" screwdriver would have worked too. i don't have one that long, so i don't know.

that offset driver is cool. i have used it so many times for different projects. mine can even be attached to a power drill.

as with all things, having the proper tools makes any job much easier.

edit:

here is where i got mine from. i got the 3 bit short set.
http://rjrcooltools.com/shop_item_detail.cfm?subcat_ID=89

Should the washers be metel,stainless or aluminum or does this
even matter ?

doesn't really matter.

k thanks

well, what i bought was the JIS screw bits and i used it in my offset driver. it can reach workspaces tighter than a shorty can get to. a couple screws would have been hard to get to otherwise imo. apparently a 12" screwdriver would have worked too. i don't have one that long, so i don't know.

that offset driver is cool. i have used it so many times for different projects. mine can even be attached to a power drill.

as with all things, having the proper tools makes any job much easier.

edit:

here is where i got mine from. i got the 3 bit short set.
http://rjrcooltools.com/shop_item_detail.cfm?subcat_ID=89

Another happy customer! Get this, I originally posted that site and I still haven't ordered my set! Go figure! But my bike is running great with the factory 98 main jets and the dynojet needles set on slot #3 with the snorkel removed! :D

I'm planning on doing this mod tomorrow morning. Just installed my yoshi slip on yesterday and it's making cracking/popping sound around 7k when the throttle is released from 9k. How would I know if the bike is too lean or rich after the shimming? Also, I don't know if I should remove the snorkel and shim at the same time or remove the snorkel after seeing how the shimming affects my bike. I'm planning on using two washers for each.

remove the snorkel at the same time you shim. start with 2 washers and if you feel you need more low end, add another later.

If the washers don't take care of the popping on decel, you may want to remove the kleen system. It got rid of my low end popping and has never returned.

Wow that was a fast response. Thanks! :D

danny, it is my understanding that popping on decel is caused by a lean condition. so yeah, since you only have the slip-on, hopefully the shimming will take care of your problem.

another tip, take it around the block for a test spin w/o the side fairings on. If you feel you need to add another washer, it'll save you some time.

Wow, what a difference it makes! Throttle response is much quicker than before. No hesitation from stop at all. I love it. :D I have not ridden on the freeway yet in order to notice if the popping sounds on decel still exists. Power was smooth from idle through near redline (I only went up to 11k). Overall, it was a pretty easy DIY for me. I would say it took me about an hour and a half to do all this, shimming and snorkel removal. Glad I bought the 12'' JIS screwdriver that made removing the screws with ease. Next mod next weekend would be to chop off my rear fender.. can't wait! :p Thank you Kelly for posting this DIY. I greatly appreciated it! :thumbup:

lol... I didn't post it! :D

next mod should be removing the kleen system to get rid of the popping.

congrats on a job well done. :thumbup:

Oops sorry! Thanks Viper-Byte for posting this DIY and thanks Kelly and others for the advice. Is it bad for the bike to have the popping sound? It doesn't really bother me much, but if it's something that can harm the bike, then I'll consider doing the Kleen System mod.

Ha ha ha, its all good Danny. :)

I have the popping sound, but since I installed a jetkit, it has not been as bad as when I just shimmed. IMO if it is not that bad and is occasional then it is fine.

I'm finally taking the plunge and doing this mod this weekend. I was going to wait until I get my exhaust, but Kkim's DIYs have motivated me to go ahead and tackle this and adjust later when I get the exhaust.

rough guess... with the snorkel pulled and stock exhaust, try 2 washers under each needle. if your bike is cold blooded now, you'll love the change. :)

Chris, you may already read but careful for the black screws, they can strip the easiest

this is me screwing them back on.. you can see the bottom left screw is a bit warm out.. it was originally from the top right corner where it's harder to reach the screws, but decided to relocated it to the bottom left for ease

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/slmboypnoy/250R/CIMG1283.jpg

if they get that bad, consider changing them out with Allen head screws.

Has anyone who has done the shimming of the carb needles put the bike on a dynamometer before and after to see what the difference was? Making the mixture richer will give a better initial acceleration (cars with carbs had an acceleration pump to richen the mixture when you put your foot down) but anything but the correct mixture will give less power so anyone done it.:confused:

Steve

do u need to do both carbs
or just the right side 1??

both

k thank kkim
u r the man
any ? i got
u got the anser thanks

I'm off tommorrow and I'm pretty stoked about doing this mod. Can't wait to see the improved performance.

If you have a way of catching any debris by covering up everything surrounding the stripped screw head then cut into the head and make a deep slot with a Dremel cutting bit (I'm assuming it's a buttonhead, I've never looked at the carbs myself) and then use a flathead to unscrew it. I've used this trick even on threadlocked screws, works well.

OMG thank you for this post!! When I first read it, it sounded like a great idea. Today it just saved me from ripping out the carbs!! The one screw on the left carb would not come out for the life of me, then got stripped to high hell :mad:. Dremel and a flathead - done in 1 minute :thumbup:

Now I just have to test out the shim - smallest washers (couldn't find any metric 3mm :o) But I'd wake everyone up if I tested it now :(

And that white piece on the end of the spring... is the washer supposed to be able to fit inside it aswell? If so, then I think the washers I got are equivalent to 4mm :mad:

I've heard about the screw headaches so today I'm picking up a JIS screwdriver specifically for this!

If I plan on running a full exhaust and removed intake snorkel, will shimming be enough to get my bike running decent? obviously not as good as a rejetting but will it be enough? I'm debating a slip on versus complete system because of this.

shimming should be fine. I had the full AP system, the snorkel pulled, but with the airbox still installed and running 3 washers under each needle. Bike ran great and would be happy if I had stopped there with the intake mods.

Once I removed the airbox, rejetting made more sense as I had the bike disassembled anyway.

my recommendation... don't half ass it... get a full exhaust system and shim accordingly to tune the bike.

She's finally done! Thanks to viper for the DIY, kkim for the nekkidness and snorkel, and kazam for the stripped screw idea. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Took me a good couple hours over two days. But I blame the stripped screw and freakishly difficult positioning of the carb screws :mad:

But in the end, 3 washer each with snorkel removed. CRAZY difference. I was afraid the change was all hyped up, but you CAN feel it basically everytime you accelerate. Before I'd have to wait till 6k rpm to feel the bulk of the torque, now it's clean all through the revs! :thumbup:

No problem Tim, glad you like that change :D I was surprised at the difference at first too. :thumbup:

:banghead: so after I put everything together, I go for a more spirited test ride... the exhaust note has changed for the worse :( is that because of the snorkel or the shims? Cause, I'd want to change it back :o

And like lurkable, the engine bogs down from around 10k up. That indicates it needs more washers?

The note change is te snorkel removal. Have you only removed the snorkal and all else is stock? Try taking a washer out of each carb so there is only 2 and try that. My bike was happy with 2 washers and snorkel removed.

It seems that 3mm washers are a bit hard to find. I went to about 4 different hardware stores and nowhere had any. I found some #5 washers that the guy measured and said should work, but who knows. They look like they might and since I got 8 of them for about a dime i figured why not. The only place left to check is Home Depot. I'll try the #5's before I head over there.

if it's bogging, you may be too rich. take one shim out or go back to stock if you prefer.

as for the washers....

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Washers_for_carb_needles

It seems that 3mm washers are a bit hard to find. I went to about 4 different hardware stores and nowhere had any. I found some #5 washers that the guy measured and said should work, but who knows. They look like they might and since I got 8 of them for about a dime i figured why not. The only place left to check is Home Depot. I'll try the #5's before I head over there.

try an electronics store like maybe best buy, fry's, radio shack, etc. I found my 3mm washers at one. just call before you go and ask if they have any, if you want to save time and gas.

Thanks guys. Kelly you must be sick and tired of hearing that you're the man but...YOU'RE THE MAN!

thanks guys. I'm gonna try to get the snorkel back in (still trying atm - quite hard to do actually :o) and see. Then I'll go back to two if need be.

yes, the snorkel is not easy to get back in completely, so don't feel bad, but you don't need to get it in perfect... just get it in there for now the best you can and see how the bike runs. if it's worse at 10K, you're too rich w/ 3 washers as the snorkel will cut down the the amount of air getting in there. if it improves... you might have entirely different problem, but report back after you get the snorkel back in and have had a chance to run up the bike.

ok reporting in!

$#@%@#%$! the snorkel was hard to get in. I tried till my fingers were numb then gave up and shaved some of the sides, tied a rope through the middle and pried and pulled like never before :banghead:So atleast I got my exhaust sound back :rolleyes:

It did seem to bog more now at 10k. So I'll be switching it up to 2 washers tomorrow and testing. My fault for getting greedy (it was a little hesitant with 2 washers and snorkel out before) :mad: so now I gotta get her naked allll over again :banghead:

but I want to confirm my washers... I'm pretty sure they're not fitting INSIDE the white plastic holder in the spring... are they supposed to? Cause the spring ends up being way too big and warped when I put the cover back on. :confused:

what size washers are you using? what did it say on the packaging?

I had the problem where the washers were too big and didn't fit inside the white spring holder and when I reved it she would bog down and almost stall. Found that the needles were able to move up and down freely and were vibrating up and down...

yeah, that's why I'm trying to find out exactly what size washers he's using.

yeah, that's why I'm trying to find out exactly what size washers he's using. :nod:

Okay, do your washers look like these on the needle??
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=261




or do they look like these??
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_geC920GCq38/SLkSz8IDsVI/AAAAAAAAA0E/b4DqoHye5fg/s640/DSC04542-1.JPG

They're definitely more like the first picture which I guess are 4 mm? From what it looks like, they don't fit in the white fixture so if that caused problems for you I'll have to replace them. Wierd thing is the bike runs fine, just at high revs like Lurkable... and he said he added another washer to fix it :confused::banghead:

yep, that first picture is Viper Byte's when the 4mm washers he had did not work. You need to find 3mm metric sized washers or #4 US sized washers.

Yes, those are 4mm ones in the top pic, replaced em with 3mm and no more problems :D

Ok just shimmed with 2 washers and took her for a test spin. Got up to 2nd gear and everything was running good. I started downshifting as I got to the stop sign at the end of my street and while idling at the stop sign the bike died out. I restarted it and was revving the engine but the revs never got above 3k. It died out and then I restarted and the same thing happened about 2 more times. Finally after restarting I was able to get going in 1st, then shifted up to 2nd, then 3rd, then parked it in the driveway. Any ideas what's wrong?

first, readjust your idle speed with the idle speed knob so it will idle.

also, are you sure you hooked up alll the vacuum lines?

yeah I double checked. I just took it out for another test and when I start out everything is cool. When I try to come out from a full stop in 1st it never gets above 2k. Even if I open the throttle all the way up. After I restart it about once or twice and rev the engine, the revs eventually go up like they're supposed to and I can let out the clutch and take off. I set the idle and checked the vacuum lnes. I'll check everything agian right now.

what size washers are you using?

#4s. Maybe the washers are the problem. I have the CA version btw so I double checked the hoses in your DIY and the 3 additional ones. At first I forgot the hose underneeath the tank to the fuel sender but after connecting that one I still found I had the same problem.

#4 or 4mm?

#4

that's the correct ones.

worst case, put everything back the way it was and see if the problem disappears. if the problem is still there, either something is damaged or not put back correctly.

if you're a gambler, you can take one shim off each needle and see if that helps, instead. :)

I noticed the fuel sender hose had a crimp in it the way it was positioned. I took off the tank and repositioned it to see if there is any change. Going for a test run now and Ill let you know.

Ok I still have the same problem. It just sputters in 1st never getting above 1k. I shut it off and started it in neutral and revved it and finally it went up to about 7k so I clicked it into 1st and rode home. It's probably a washer problem. The guy probably told me they were #4 but they're really 4mm.

iirc, the #4's should be a relatively close fit around the needle.
also, you could measure the ID of the washer. it should be really close to 3 mm if it is a #4. i forget what a #4 exactly measures. i posted it up somewhere on this forum.

chris, take a look at post #233... which of those pictures does yours look like?

Ok I think they're 4mm not #4. They look like the first picture. Is the plastic part inside the spring supposed to fit over the washers? The washers I have do not fit inside this part. I'm assuming that this is what the problem is.

yep, the plastic is supposed to fit over the washers. you def got the wrong size.