Most recently the Maine Forest Service had several snowmobiles blow their engines. Their mechanic blamed it on the fact that these machines were stored with full fuel tanks. The article in the Bangor Daily News, last Monday, stated that these 10% Ethanol fuels tend to attract water and then separate. Since most fuel tanks draw from the bottom, that can pose a real problem. The article recommended a product called K-100 Gasoline Treatment. Eight ounces treats 20 Gal. They also say that Sta-Bil is OK, but that the K-100 works best. They recommend treating any gasoline that is stored more than 30 days. Just thought I would pass this on to anyone storing their bike this winter. I immediately got some K-100 ($10.50) and treated my fuel.

Do those snowmobiles have two stroke or 4 stroke engines?

Kelly, To the best of my knowledge, they were 4 Stroke. Also, I just came back from a harbour committee meeting, and the commercial fishermen expressed a concern about this fuel--as did our Harbourmaster. We have fuel in our storage tanks--several hundred gallons. Will that become useless? I think, that since there is such a poverty of information on this issue, that I will drain my full fuel tank, put it in my cage, and get fresh fuel in the Spring.

Don't leave your tank empty. The inside of your gas tank will rust due to moisture in the air and cause even more problems. I'd store it full of gas with some sort of stabilizer mixed in for the winter. When you are ready to bring it back into service, drain all of the gas out and refill with fresh gas before firing it up.

E10 has been mandatory for all gas in Hawaii for about 5 years now. It's a POS idea. Any vehicle that vents to air will absorb moisture and recombine with the alcohol in the fuel and settle out on the bottom as a goo. It was bad before alcohol was added, it's now a nightmare for the boating community and any lawn and garden small engine. Two strokes have it extra bad as the alcohol separates the oil and gas out and if left unmixed, you end up running on straight alcohol/oil/water mixture which will kill an engine due to the critical nature of 2 stroke jetting requirements.

and this is just the tip of the iceberg. plastics get brittle and fail from the incompatibility of fuel system parts with straight alcohol. There are many fuel system related failures people are seeing now.

Is it a bad enough issue for our bikes that its worth the time for me to go out of my way to fill up on non-ethanol gas? I think Shell is the place to do this around here. I usually fill mine up at a place that advertises "Up to 10% ethanol."

Nick, Non Ethanol gas is very hard to find. It has even made inroads into the aviation scene. My son is a pilot and he is VERY concerned about a fuel failure in his plane. That issue concerns me as well. On my boat and my cage, I don`t worry because they are diesels. The outboard for my tender is a Yamaha 2 Stroke--which will be toast very quickly at this rate.

Best solution is to try use as fresh a fuel as you can with ethanol stuff, especially in a vehicle that will sit.

Nick, if you use the bike, there shouldn't be a problem. It is the long storage times that become a problem when the fuel/alcohol start to separate. Usually takes about a month or so, but that can vary according to temp and humidity.

I live in a area huge on boating and know a few gas stations that sell non oxygenated gas aka no ethanol. But it may be harder to find in other areas. I do small engine work as a part time gig and After seeing what ethanol does to those carbs theres no way I am leaving that in my bike all winter.

I think this is worst for 2stroke engine, because it gets its lubrication from the fuel mix.

I store my bike in my house for about 5 months during the winter, and i start it every 2-3 weeks, to get some movement in the fuel and injection system.

On my boat and my cage, I don`t worry because they are diesels.

Alex, there is a stabilizer for diesels as well! As I remember, it was $10/gal. When I had diesel VWs, it could only be found at truck stops. I actually found a wholesaler in Baltimore and could get regular shipments from him. A couple of weeks ago, I saw it on the shelf of my local Advance Auto Parts. I will try to find the name for you.

Most of the problems with ethanol gas seem to be in older engines. We had a spike in engine failures among power boaters here when ethanol first started showing up, but now the problem seems to be affecting newer motors as well.
If the gas and water separate in the tank, is it possible to re-mix the water and gas if you shake your bike's gas tank every so often while it's in storage? Or is the separation of gas and water a permanent condition that requires replacing the fuel with new gas? Seems that if it's possible to aggitate the tank occasionally to keep the gas mixed it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Anybody know for sure?

You bring up a very good question about shaking the gas. I would think it would depend on temp and humidity and how long the gas sits. I've seen some nasty, gel looking substances in the bottom of gas tanks I wouldn't want to chance my bike to. :(

As an experiment (I've never done this), you could fill a glass, quart jar 3/4 full of ethanol gas. Put the lid on it with a small hole in it to simulate a vent. Keep it in the same area that you store your bike. (be careful of open flames!) See how long it takes for the gas to separate and see if you can shake it to recombine. You could also keep an identical bottle next to it and don't touch it as a control.

I saw this at the local gas station when the owner wanted to see if the new ethanol we were required to use would be a problem in his tanks. His experiment showed no significant water absorption or separation, though I doubt his experiment lasted as long as a winter storage period or that the humidity and temps were identical to yours.

Really makes you wish you bought stock in SeaFoam and Sta-Bil, doesn't it? :D

Kelly, Thank you for your input as well as the input from other members of the Ninjette Family. After giving this problem a lot of thought, I have decided to drain both carbs and leave the tank full to avoid rust--maybe rocking the bike from time to time. In he Spring, I`ll drain the tank with a transfer pump--a manual one and put it into a gas can, which will be vigorously shook. I`ll then put the stuff in my non diesel cage. I plan to do the same with my lawn mower, chain saws, etc.

Although I was being lazy and not reading through all the posts (well not really lazy but a small bit intoxicated) I have to recommend using racing gas while storing motorcycles. I only say this due to the fact that I stored a bike for a little over 20 years with a full tank of cam2 and when I took it out of storage I changed the oil, put in a new battery and it started right up and has run perfect for the last two years of use.

I do use sta-bil in my generator and I'm not impressed with it so I try to start everything often.

Oscar, I did fill the tank with Premium fuel. I realize that this is not racing fuel. I guess that the "in" stuff around here is a product called K-100 at $10.50 for 8 oz. The stuff at risk, in my case, are a couple of chain saws, a weed wacker, lawn mower, snow blower, and a 2HP Yamaha 2 Stroke outboard for the dinghy I use to get to my mooring. Sure would be nice if the oil companies, our do nothing Congress that writes legislation without any technical input, and engine manufacturers could talk to each other. Of course, the basic flaw in my reasoning is that this is based on the assumption that the system is rational.

I just burned 5gals in my VW beetle that was stored for 3 yrs.It had the correct amount of Stabil and was stored in a modern 5gal millitary jerry can.Ran like a charm.

I just burned 5gals in my VW beetle that was stored for 3 yrs.It had the correct amount of Stabil and was stored in a modern 5gal millitary jerry can.Ran like a charm.

yeah, but you should have been in the car behind you. Old, stale, rotten gas smells ... well... old, stale and rotten. :D

Diesel additives will gum up after time as well...be careful

Is it a bad enough issue for our bikes that its worth the time for me to go out of my way to fill up on non-ethanol gas? I think Shell is the place to do this around here. I usually fill mine up at a place that advertises "Up to 10% ethanol."

The Shell you pass to get here is ethanol free - you just need to ride out to visit more often!

Alex A ..You may wish to check this article out:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/review_gas_treatment_products.html

It looks like Sta-bil is a "gas stabilizer", while "K-100" is a "gas treatment" , contains alcohol, and attracts water. :eek:

The article also has a note toward the end, which states "All products that contain alcohol should not be used in E-10 fuel, except under special and unusual circumstances."

E10 has been mandatory for all gas in Hawaii for about 5 years now. It's a POS idea. Any vehicle that vents to air will absorb moisture and recombine with the alcohol in the fuel and settle out on the bottom as a goo. It was bad before alcohol was added, it's now a nightmare for the boating community and any lawn and garden small engine.

Two strokes have it extra bad as the alcohol separates the oil and gas out and if left unmixed, you end up running on straight alcohol/oil/water mixture which will kill an engine due to the critical nature of 2 stroke jetting requirements.

True true. Actually I'm pretty sure MTBE (The original additive to fuels) has universally been banned in the U.S.A. MTBE is an excellent additive, but it has the nasty problem that it doesn't break down. So older gas stations with slightly leaky tanks (It's actually pretty common) would allow trace amounts of MTBE to bleed through the soil and into water supplies. Talk about a health concern!

As for fuel, some of the equipment I used to work on that was stored with empty tanks even for just 2-3 months would rust up like crazy. Talk about a PITA to try and fix :eek: That and the with the 2-stroke engines fuel separation happens a LOT quicker then you'd imagine. Any of the rental machines that I worked on that sat for longer then a month would show visible signs of separation and yes it'll kill an engine. More likely if the fuel/oil has separated though the engine just won't start and plays hell on troubleshooting.

Although I was being lazy and not reading through all the posts (well not really lazy but a small bit intoxicated) I have to recommend using racing gas while storing motorcycles. I only say this due to the fact that I stored a bike for a little over 20 years with a full tank of cam2 and when I took it out of storage I changed the oil, put in a new battery and it started right up and has run perfect for the last two years of use.

I do use sta-bil in my generator and I'm not impressed with it so I try to start everything often.

I have to ask this, unless it is none of my beezwax. Why did you store a bike for 20 yrs? And you used the gas that was stored with it?

NB

Alex A ..You may wish to check this article out:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/review_gas_treatment_products.html

It looks like Sta-bil is a "gas stabilizer", while "K-100" is a "gas treatment" , contains alcohol, and attracts water. :eek:

The article also has a note toward the end, which states "All products that contain alcohol should not be used in E-10 fuel, except under special and unusual circumstances."

I re read the label on the K-100. It contains no alcohol and is a Fuel Enhancer (whatever that means) and a fuel stabilizer. Our local wrench--a Ducati mechanic carries it and highly recommends it. I filled my tank to the top and treated it with K-100, then started the engine and clamped off the vacuum hose with a Curved Kelly (hemostat) until the engine died. I now have two dry carbs. This spring I`ll drain the tank, put in some fresh fuel, and will be golden. The gas will go into the cage. My second cage has a 6.5L Turbo Diesel. It gets driven enough so it needs no stabilizer. The boat diesel has stabilizer and anti -gel in the tank. It also gets run from time to time to disrupt the ice around the boat.

SeaFoam. I read about it on Ducati.ms message boards and decided to try it. It works. It's incredible.

+1 for SeaFoam. We've had cars that have literally sat for 20 years start right up after either #1 being treated with SeaFoam before or #2 had some SeaFoam put in the tank before we tried to start it.

OK, as a chemist, I might be able to shed a little light on some of this, but not on what works best.
The reason alcohol of any kind is put in is because it WILL mix with water (gasoline won't) and the theory is that the water/alcohol mix will pass through lines unfrozen. You bike will still run crummy until it is out, but you won't be getting pure water which won't burn. Methanol has a slightly lower flashpoint than ethanol (what I put in my bike).
The K-100 someone mentioned contains ethylene glycol which is anti-freeze which will definitley suck up water. It must be a super tiny amount though as that stuff is like syrup.
The real danger is that the alcohol will dry out the rubber in the system. I think that is why Kawasaki says not to use it.
Here is what I think, if anyone cares, my Dad has stored his lawnmowers and boats with dry gas (probably isopropyl alcohol) for years with no issues. If you slosh your tank and run your bike once a week long enough to get it warm and keep the tank topped off (you won't get water if there is no room for it) you will be fine.
Believe me, I want to worry about this too, but I can't sleep with my bike covered up next to me. People might talk.

Believe me, I want to worry about this too, but I can't sleep with my bike covered up next to me. People might talk. And why not? I mean it's a Ninja 250 for crying out loud.

Most of the problems with ethanol gas seem to be in older engines. We had a spike in engine failures among power boaters here when ethanol first started showing up, but now the problem seems to be affecting newer motors as well.
If the gas and water separate in the tank, is it possible to re-mix the water and gas if you shake your bike's gas tank every so often while it's in storage? Or is the separation of gas and water a permanent condition that requires replacing the fuel with new gas? Seems that if it's possible to aggitate the tank occasionally to keep the gas mixed it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Anybody know for sure?

If you put stabil in It'll be fine to run that tank out in the spring. Don't waste it. It's still good gas.

I can't sleep with my bike covered up next to me. People might talk.

Like this? :lol:

http://www.spaceg.com/multimedia/collection/motorcycles/sleeping%20with%20the%20bike.jpg

Lol!!! Now I KNOW it will stay in the garage.

thats hilarious