Forgive the copy/paste from my post elsewhere, I saw a question about springs and figured I'd ad this info...

I got the Emulators installed. Took all of a lazy hour.

I decided to start off with them at a base starting point of yellow springs, 3 turns preload, stock damper rods (no drilling) and stock oil levels.

My reasoning was that I prefer stiffer suspension, you can't easily make the damper rod holes smaller after you drill them. If I need more oil flow, they come apart and I'll drill 2 holes per leg till I get what I want.

So, off with the brake, the wheel, the fender, out come the fork tubes.

Next, compress the center of the top fork caps and pop out the C clips. Remove the cap, the spacer, the washer and the spring in that order. If you go slow removing the springs you don't lose any oil.

I cut the preload spacers 16mm to match the overall height with the emulator under the spring and cleaned them up. I dropped the Emulator in the tube, spring on that, washer, preload spacer and finally the cap, compressed it in the tube and seat the C clip back in the groove.

The test ride went well. The forks no longer bottom on hard braking. They seem to actually match the firmness of where I have my GSXR shock set. Bumps transmit thru the bike with the same effect, firm and controlled. I tried to hit as many hard, sharp bumps as I could. I can't get them to give me the hammering lock up they had before. I'm guessing they stay up higher with true damping control and don't move as much towards full blown bottoming, which was pretty regular for me.

I'm thinking they are about 50% to where they would be ideal, only because it is snowing and I can't hit the really nasty braking bumps in the mountains. If they deal with that, I might not do much more. As far as I can test them today, they are right on the $. I'll reserve final judgment for a good thrashing road to see if the complete transformation has been achieved.

Totally worth the price of admission, and if I need to tune them further there are quite a few options at my disposal. Different springs to open the valves, and different preload on both sets of springs along with any combo of those adjustments per fork leg. Also more/less spring preload, 12 different holes to open up on each damper rod, and oil levels along with different spring rates, which as of now I am happy with.

Extra note, we just had another few days of storms so it'll be Monday before I can hope to kinda thrash test the suspension, if the 50f days they predict actually happen. So far it feels more composed and doesn't use as much travel as it did. The hydro locking I feel I was having hasn't reappeared but I have yet to really get it in that environment, repeated sharp small hits. High speed repeating compressions that it just couldn't deal with.

Thanks old3! I just placed my order for springs, emulator, and fresh oil. Hope it gives me the confidence I want when trying to hammer down on the bike.

You bet. I figured trying the "drop em in and see" method would be a good base level experiment, so far they are much better. It is amazing how little Kawi could have done to make this bike so much better. :thumbup:

I've got some miles on these now and really can't complain. The warm pavement has eluded me so far, but the nasty, broken NJ and NY roads are delivering the cracks, bumps and holes in great numbers. My forks are controlled, take the hits and we move on. No drama. Unless summer tire temps bring something else out, they stay as installed.

Are these the same as on the 250?

Yes.

good to know! (i am a bit lazy to drill the dampening rod ;p)

Installed mine yesterday. Drilled the damper rod as instructed and added a touch of oil over stock. Haven't gone out for a real ride yet but my quick spin around the block says the front is uber stiff now. Might actually drain out a bit of oil and shorten the pre-load spacer a tad more. Gonna make that decision after a few canyon runs.

good to know! (i am a bit lazy to drill the dampening rod ;p)

So far no complaints. Rides firm but controlled.

Honestly, after looking at the explanation of how the emulators work, it appears that without drilling the holes the system is the equivalent of stock with a higher viscosity fork oil. The variable flow rate valve gives no advantage without the extra holes- its just another restriction for the oil to flow through.

Honestly, after looking at the explanation of how the emulators work, it appears that without drilling the holes the system is the equivalent of stock with a higher viscosity fork oil. The variable flow rate valve gives no advantage without the extra holes- its just another restriction for the oil to flow through.

:whathesaid: There is NO POINT to the emulators if you aren't drilling the dampening rods. The whole point of the emulators is to remove the dampening function from the original rods and shifting it to the emulators. If your rods are still doing the dampening, there is nothing for the emulators to do. I suggest you get in touch with race tech about this.

I disagree, the stock damper holes are a poor form of damping and they offered nearly zero on slow speed compression. Now it hits the valve and is correctly damped. I don't think I rode a single mile without bottoming the forks stock, and nearly every time I stopped hard they were blown thru.

If I require more flow to the valves, I can drill any combo of holes I want.

In high speed damping, I believe they were packing, or basically locking up as they couldn't flow enough as they moved so much on every strike. Now they stay up higher and I haven't had them stutter yet, but again, the road temps are only up to 50f at best right now so I'm not slamming the corners where I had this issue quite as hard.

:thumbup:

:whathesaid: There is NO POINT to the emulators if you aren't drilling the dampening rods. The whole point of the emulators is to remove the dampening function from the original rods and shifting it to the emulators. If your rods are still doing the dampening, there is nothing for the emulators to do. I suggest you get in touch with race tech about this.

A "what he said" on my behalf as well. I thought along the same lines as you but as proven on the race track, it doesn't work. My friend and I both tried it without drilling the holes to see if we can get away with it and chatter was a big issue. A good conversation with Racetech and a thread on the forum convinced us that it WAS necessary to drill the holes if you wanted to use the emulators for what they were designed for. Otherwise, all they're doing is taking up space in your forks rising the springs up closer to the preloader spacers.

Maybe on a track, on a race tire, I could find a fault as they are installed. On sticky street tires at a 8-9/10ths pace on real roads it works great for my 210lbs frame. Everything I complained about is resolved. :thumbup:

Pics or GTFO

Pics of what??? :cool:

I disagree, the stock damper holes are a poor form of damping and they offered nearly zero on slow speed compression. Now it hits the valve and is correctly damped. I don't think I rode a single mile without bottoming the forks stock, and nearly every time I stopped hard they were blown thru.

If I require more flow to the valves, I can drill any combo of holes I want.

In high speed damping, I believe they were packing, or basically locking up as they couldn't flow enough as they moved so much on every strike. Now they stay up higher and I haven't had them stutter yet, but again, the road temps are only up to 50f at best right now so I'm not slamming the corners where I had this issue quite as hard.

:thumbup:

Jim,
Politely and with respect- The difference in damping quality at different speeds serves to support the original suggestion that you have paid $170 dollars for an effect you could have achieved with $5 of higher viscosity fork oil or a smaller air gap. The whole point of the valve emulator is to allow optimal flow at BOTH slow and fast speeds. How much damping is the job of oil viscosity.

Perhaps, but I also still have the option of different weight oil, height of the oil, the adjustments on the emulator including screw settings and spring rate, along with the multiple combinations of opened out oil holes. Maybe a different oil weight would have given me the same result, but I really doubt it. Dumbing down the damper roads with thicker oils will not give the same flow control as the emulator, especially on high speed compressions.

I did 150 miles of nasty, broken NY state pavement today, I can't find a fault with them, besides that I'd like another 6" of travel. As delivered, the stock forks would be bounding all over the place, and the same repetitive hammering I rode today would have the front tire chattering and skimming to the outside of every turn.

FWIW, I'm a 34 years riding, 47 year old "A" level off road racer. I get all my suspension tuning in my off road bikes before I even ride them at this point. Maybe for street riding I'm not as particular as a road race guy on a particular track, but I've been on these same roads for decades and the stock 300 was the worst forks I've ever used for them. :eek:

Dropping in these parts has made them better than tolerable. For a street bike, it ain't even bad now. It is as balanced as I can imagine with my GSXR rear shock.

Ride on sir! :thumbup:

I have found one fault at this point. (Finally!). While leaned over fairly hard, 50-60 MPH on a long left hand turn at a highway cloverleaf, so a long almost 360 degree turn, there were a series of consistent undulations in the surface. I'm thinking I was feeling the fork tubes flexing. It had a pumping feel at the bars, the forks couldn't seem to deal with the heavy side loading in that circumstance.

That has been the only oddity, and I don't know if more initial plushness would change it or if a fork brace would be the cure. I've been on a few warmer tire rides now in some of my typically rough and twisty roads and this was the only time I got that sensation.

More when I can duplicate that.

What, the frame doesn't still feel like it's carved out of billet steel anymore? Better replace those bearings.

I kid I kid.



If it's only happened once, I wouldn't worry about doing anything to fix it. There's been debates on here about fork braces on 250's, some think they're necessary while others think they're dumb. Consider how many racers ride 250's and how few of them spend the effort to buy/make fork braces.

I know you keed, you keed, but the stock ball bearings were garbage, I'd not want to feel how bad that gyration would be with them in the steering head.

Warmer tires and better traction might bring out more issues, right now if that is the only one I can deal with it. It isn't a typical circumstance in my riding, think bumpy skid pad.

Who offers fork braces, just to get familiar with them.

I've never seen fork braces specifically for the Ninja 250 or 300. I'm not even sure how you'd go about making one.

EDIT: Looks like some Japanese companies make them, maybe the same thing as Bikerz products? I have no experience with any of them.
http://japan.webike.net/products/20124818.html

Another edit: after more reading, those are the same parts as what the brand Bikerz sells. Seems like the fork brace is the only part Bikerz sells that actually does anything other than look chunky. Chat with gallardo73 and see if he knows anything about the fork braces.

Thank you! :thumbup:

Gave that a look, give me the impression of bling over bang with that thin bridge. Maybe I'll talk to my machinist buddy.

I have found one fault at this point. (Finally!)............I'm thinking I was feeling the fork tubes flexing. It had a pumping feel at the bars, the forks couldn't seem to deal with the heavy side loading in that circumstance.

That has been the only oddity, and I don't know if more initial plushness would change it or if a fork brace would be the cure.......

Copied from http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/columns/122_1203_the_third_motion/

"The third motion:

Barring a few exceptions, the front wheel of your motorcycle is steered and suspended by a telescopic fork. Steering motion is a simple rotation around the steering axis, and suspension motion an equally simple sliding motion between two pairs of tubes.

..........But there is a third motion that isn’t talked about much. Though there are springs inside the fork, the fork itself is also a spring. It allows the axle to move back and forth, perpendicular to the fork’s sliding axis (and, to a lesser extent, side-to-side), because the fork tubes flex under load, bending as load conditions change. And this flexing and recovering motion is not damped. The extent of flex is controlled by the strength of the components, but the movement itself is not controlled."

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Steer/STEER.htm

Fork braces can only stiffen the torsion or rotation of one fork respect to the other; however, they cannot do much (if any) to stiffen the sideways bent of the forks under lateral forces and accelerations.

Tubular shapes are the worst to resist bending forces and deformations (I-beam shapes are the opposite).

In order to eliminate the non-dampened lateral springiness, both forks would need to be braced against each other for the full length, what would defeat the telescopic effect.

They are braced at the top (triple-tree) and at the bottom (wheel bolt), but they depend on the tubes rigidity by the mid-span.
The main problem with that deformation is that it compromises the parallelism and hence the free sliding of the suspension.

I noticed when ordering through Hardrace they ask what spring rate for the emulators. Anyone know what the stock springrate is for the 300?

I noticed when ordering through Hardrace they ask what spring rate for the emulators. Anyone know what the stock springrate is for the 300?

The emulators have different spring rates and I'm gonna guess that that is what they are asking you for. When I got mine from racetech there was a blue set and a yellow set. The yellow set is stiffer/more race oriented and the blue set is more for aggressive street. Can't remember the rates so maybe someone else can chime in.

The emulators have different spring rates and I'm gonna guess that that is what they are asking you for. When I got mine from racetech there was a blue set and a yellow set. The yellow set is stiffer/more race oriented and the blue set is more for aggressive street. Can't remember the rates so maybe someone else can chime in.

Thank you sounds like I need to give them a buzz then.

Forgive my suspension retardation, but what's the cheapest, easiest way to stiffen up the front? New oil, springs, both???

add a little more fork oil. Not sure how much air space you have in the 300, my pre-gen 250 has a lot of air space so i can safely add 20-30mm (length of the tube) of oil.

(disclaimer: you can only add so much before you damage the fork cap due to pressure; and purist will decry this is the "bandage" way)

purist here just chiming in with NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

i did this:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_I_replace_the_fork_oil%3F#Fork_oil_level

went from 205mm level (of air) to 160mm. Very happy with it.
(i did after a while i went with the "correct" way of swapping the stock springs out with a ninja 500 springs, and then later the SonicSpring.)

now, i am not sure what's the oil/air level on the new 300. so if it started off high in oil from the factory already then no i don't recommend going the "add oil" route.

Thread Resurrection: Did you guys who installed the GVE on the 13+ 300, did you have to purchase and use the adapters that RaceTech sells with their GVE? part number: FPEV AD3507 P

Racetech's site says its required for the 300s but I cant find anyone online referencing these adapters during installation.

thanks!

no adapters req update race tech says you need them

no adapters req

dammit, they got me... I had ordered a set along with my GVE and Springs, there goes $20.

thanks for the reply!

i believe the answer is you need them, not because of the fit on the dampner rod, but because of a lack of a piston ring on the rod, i can see no other reason,

just talked to race tech. answer is. sometimes they dont seal properly on the rod. this ensures proper seal and consistent dampning.

Forgive my suspension retardation, but what's the cheapest, easiest way to stiffen up the front? New oil, springs, both???

1.5"pacers and 10 - 15wt fork oil.

... added a touch of oil over stock.

FYI: The additional oil over stock will affect it's characteristics, as the air-gap at the top of the tube acts like another "spring." This is why we want them to be even, and at specific levels.

Honestly, after looking at the explanation of how the emulators work, it appears that without drilling the holes the system is the equivalent of stock with a higher viscosity fork oil. The variable flow rate valve gives no advantage without the extra holes- its just another restriction for the oil to flow through.

This is true!

I'm sure extra rods can be had for cheap from ebay if anyone wants to undo the work.

Forgive my suspension retardation, but what's the cheapest, easiest way to stiffen up the front? New oil, springs, both???

springs, preload adj and 20 weight took me quite far.

Springs are the basis of the suspension action. They let the bike bounce. The spring rate determines how much force it takes to compress the suspension, and therefore how much the suspension moves. If you have the wrong spring rate, the suspension simply won't move the right amount.

The oil system acts as the damper for the suspension. The springs convert motion into energy, and the damping system dissipates that energy. Without damping, the bike would just continue to bounce back and forth forever (ignoring friction and other imperfections of the real world). If your springs are a tad weak, some extra damping can help slow down the excessive movement. But if your springs are way off, trying to fix it by changing oil details is asking the system to do something it's not intended for.

The NewGen and 300 have the stiffest fork springs of the little Ninjas. They're good for 86±10lb. That sounds pretty weak, but going up two notches is good for ~150lb, and three is good for 180lb. For comparison, the PreGen springs are about 2/3 as stiff, and three notches up is only good for ~110lb. The NewGen and 300 are soft, but not horribly so like the PreGen and 500.

For a bigger guy like me, changing my 500's springs to match my weight was the best mod I've done. The suspension actually moves like it's supposed to now - it properly absorbs bumps for a smoother ride, while supporting my weight in corners and such for a more planted feeling. Too-soft springs will make the ride both mushy and rough at the same time, as illogical as that seems. But if you're smaller and have a bike with less-bad springs, the stockers might not be too bad for you compared to the cost and work of swapping in springs with a perfect rate.

Can anyone please confirm if the damping rods can be removed without separating the upper and lower fork tubes?

Can anyone please confirm if the damping rods can be removed without separating the upper and lower fork tubes?

yes. no need to seperate

Thanks for the reply. Is it bolted in through the bottom of the fork leg or does it just pull out?

Thanks for the reply. Is it bolted in through the bottom of the fork leg or does it just pull out?

bolted thru bottom

Thanks

Good time to put some fresh seals and bushings in.

Well

using 2008 ninja 250 front end in a 1993 ninja 250

Using race tech emulators and springs.

RT recommend 10mm preload.

It turns out my spacer then must be 12 cm long.

If I buy SSR preload adjusters, they have preload from 5-20 mm

(it is not that hard to make new spacers but also checking making sure my head calculations are correct)

The the SSR adjuster mean my newER spacer should be 5mm shorter to start at a preload of 10mm? A spacer of 11.5 cm length?

my preload on the 2008 suspension (which I bought used as parts) was pretty much the cap width ( 15 mm)

FYI::: Rider weight (160 lbs):: bike weight ( I think 320 lbs dry):: spring .75 K:: emulator 3 turns and blue 40 lbs spring::novice racetrack rider::preload 10 mm:: (oil height) 140 mm

dont have the SSR adjusters yet so was gonna make 2 sets of spacers.

Set #1 (11.5 cm long)
Set #2 (12 cm long )

1 i am not a suspension guy , jph suspension at the track do all my tweeking.
i run preload caps that whenn backed out have no pressure on the spring, and have not run out of needed adjustment.

1 i am not a suspension guy , jph suspension at the track do all my tweeking.
i run preload caps that whenn backed out have no pressure on the spring, and have not run out of needed adjustment.

if you run the SSR preload adjuster, you would not know how far down from the top of the fork tube they sit right?? my guess is 5mm since 5mm is the stated minimum preload but from pics it looks like more..

if i follow you, you can measure the preload cap all the way out. than measure from your spring to the ring grove in your upper fork tube. deduct the preload cap measurement from the distance from the spring to the ring grove and that is your spacer length.

if i follow you, you can measure the preload cap all the way out. than measure from your spring to the ring grove in your upper fork tube. deduct the preload cap measurement from the distance from the spring to the ring grove and that is your spacer length.

makes sense; will wait for the pre load adjuster to arrive and measure them...

thanks

I know it is months later. I pulled 300 & 250 forks apart as 250 gves & rt springs are going from 250 to 300. It appears that the nut on the emulator restricts flow unless moved away from top of damper on 300. I'll make 1/2" rings from 3/4" pvc to do that. The 300 springs will go in 250. ;)