Okay, found this out quite by accident, but when I ride with no hands on the bars (and applying no gas, obviously) at above 50 mph, the front end will start to oscillate back and forth, growing larger and larger if I let it. Lower speeds than that does not seem to produce this. It's almost like headshake you get from too steep fork angles on aggressive geometry sport bikes.

It's something that's fairly recent... anyone have any ideas what I should check or what could be the cause of such a problem? I have some ideas of my own, but would like to hear what most here think could be the problem.

No, this is not a trick question... I need to fix this. :(

thanks
:)

You've done the same thing before and did not get that effect?

Tire pressure?

The changes you've done to the fork height could have an effect.

Not sure.

:confused:

An out of aligned rear tire will cause the bike to steer off-axis and the front tire will be forced to re-align itself with the direction the rear is "facing" and depending on speed, road condition, etc., the oscillation will wobble the front end. In many cases, changing the rear tire will correct this.

I thought 250's normaly did that when you were doing the "Look Ma no hands" manuvering... Tyke certainly always has even at lower speeds.

You've done the same thing before and did not get that effect?

Tire pressure?

The changes you've done to the fork height could have an effect.

Not sure.

:confused:

Sorry, I've never ridden with no hands before. I was zipping up a zipper on my left wrist and momentarily took both hands off the bars and noticed it.

I have the forks back in the stock position, so I just brought them back up, so it should be lessened, if anything.

I'll need to recheck my tire pressure.

thanks for the ideas.
:)

An out of aligned rear tire will cause the bike to steer off-axis and the front tire will be forced to re-align itself with the direction the rear is "facing" and depending on speed, road condition, etc., the oscillation will wobble the front end. In many cases, changing the rear tire will correct this.

I'll check that, too. :thumbup:

I thought 250's normaly did that when you were doing the "Look Ma no hands" manuvering... Tyke certainly always has even at lower speeds.

Wow... that's interesting. I'd be very interested to hear from others if this is a common occurrence with our bikes. I wouldn't think so... you may have the same problem I have, whatever it ends up being. :)

Wow... that's interesting. I'd be very interested to hear from others if this is a common occurrence with our bikes. I wouldn't think so... you may have the same problem I have, whatever it ends up being. :)

From what I understand it's standard thing, but it's going to affect different bike setups at different speeds. Some bikes are more stable than others.

Do you mean with your long list of prior bikes, you haven't encountered this on occasion?

I'm not an expert, this is just my :2cents:

Harley actually had a recall for this on the HDs. Seems like the rear wheel spokes loosened up and caused the rear tire to be misaligned. But our bikes don't have spokes. I googled the problem and there are other things that can cause this, as well.

From what I understand it's standard thing, but it's going to affect different bike setups at different speeds. Some bikes are more stable than others.

Do you mean with your long list of prior bikes, you haven't encountered this on occasion?

I'm not an expert, this is just my :2cents:

To be truthful, no. And I have ridden w/o hands on the bars before on those bikes to check alignment.

I do have the Woodcraft clipons installed and they don't have bar end weights... perhaps this contributes to it now?

Harley actually had a recall for this on the HDs. Seems like the rear wheel spokes loosened up and caused the rear tire to be misaligned. But our bikes don't have spokes. I googled the problem and there are other things that can cause this, as well.

Yeah, I know there are some major things that can cause this. I'm just trying to see if I've overlooked something relatively simple as I don't remember having this problem until recently. I will check my rear wheel alignment, but I haven't touched that recently.

To be truthful, no. And I have ridden w/o hands on the bars before on those bikes to check alignment.

I do have the Woodcraft clipons installed and they don't have bar end weights... perhaps this contributes to it now?

Ohhh... Yes. The stock handlebars have weights and the Woodcraft do not, right? That could certainly contribute to the problem. The weights would have a damper effect.

I've heard of them used to cut bar vibrations, but not to avoid front end oscillation.

I will check my rear wheel alignment, but I haven't touched that recently.

What made me think of it, was the slightly larger tire (I think) you put on the rear.

True, but others have done the same and some even larger and this is the first I'm hearing of this "problem".

I've heard of them used to cut bar vibrations, but not to avoid front end oscillation.

I can't find a reference right now, but I remember that it's one of the effects bar weights can have. It wouldn't be a night and day type of thing. Just enough to slow the initial occurance.

Then again, I could be mistaken. :confused:

Well, you could be correct because if I keep my hands on the bars, there is no indication of anything being wrong, at any speed. It's only when I take my hands completely off the bars above 50mph does this start to happen.

You mean to tell me this happens to all of the 250s? I find that hard to believe. :confused:

You mean to tell me this happens to all of the 250s? I find that hard to believe. :confused:

I feel a test ride coming on. I'll post my data as soon as I can get it, which will probably be Friday.

:cbrsmiley:

Just ever so slightly unrelated as I can't comment on a 250r (it arrives tomorrow - woohoo!) but I had a similar experience at much lower speeds and I never really got to the bottom of it...

Was a Marin Mountvision full suspension bike and whenever I got beyond 15mph and took my hands off the bars (which I often liked to do after a really hard ride) the handlebars started to wobble and would increase the rate of wobble to the point of crapping my pants and I'd rapidly grab the bars again.
This had nothing to do with my riding ability. I can easily go round bends without my hands on the bars and rode so often hands free whilst chilling out that I can do quick little flicks and change direction without a problem on roads or slightly uneven terrain. Done it for years on bikes of varying quality, £50 to £2000 and never had a problem till my most expensive bike lol - go figure.

I took it to 5 different specialists including the manufacturers cause I was really narked at this - a £2k mountain bike should be able to do what a £50 bike can do - go in a straight line lol.......
and all of them told me my bike was 100% ok, absolutely nothing wrong with it. They threw all sorts of crap as to why it might be doing it; some blamed my riding, the weight from the reflector on the wheel, the weight from the valve and in the end all I got from the manufacturer was that I shouldn't be riding it with no hands in the first place.
So I sold it and have a bike for half the price that goes in a straight line again.

Now it could be an induced feeling due to lack of confidence in the bike which I had ever since the first handlebar wobble, but I can swear that the wheels were working against each other when going round the corners. I could feel it, the bike never felt right going round corners and on a perfectly flat road could not go above 15mph without crazy handlebar shake if I took my hands off.

And for me - a bike that cant go in a straight line on multiple flat roads and feels very odd around corners has an alignment problem, no matter how slight.
Maybe full suspension configurations can accentuate a normally acceptable slight misalignment to a problematic handlebar wobble

I would suggest you experiment with your bike on long bends at varying speeds and really concentrate as to how the wheels feel. You've been riding a long time, you'll know what I mean if the wheels don't feel like they are going round a corner together.

I would imagine that you would only need a very slight misalignment to cause some wobble at 50mph.

Or as Marin told me.....stop riding hands free lol :D

Our 2004 did it, and our 2008 does it. If you decelerate through 45 - 50 mph with hands completely off bars and your weight leaned back, you can get the bars to wobble a bit. Tried everything to fix it on the 2004, including a number of warranty repairs. End result is, many of these bikes just do that. (Kawi will tell you the same thing if you call them) Check tire pressure, steering head bearings, and rear-wheel alignment, but if all of those are OK and there are no other symptoms, don't worry about it. And don't keep both hands off the bars for long. :)

Thanks guys. Checked my tire pressures and both are set to the usual 30psi. I double checked my rear wheel alignment... the adjusters have not moved.

My gut feeling is telling me to check the steering stem nut for tightness and perhaps I got a bad front tire. I've been having a sort of bumpity, bump when leaned over on the 090s since that day I changed to them. It's perfectly okay in a straight line or in turns when the throttle is on, but in throttle off type of corners, I could feel the bumping.... like I was riding on scallops near the edge of the tire. The tire looks fine, though, so it could be an internal matter.

Good (?) to hear you've had similar problems... it seems the clipons may be aggravating or amplifying the wobble.

I agree... for now I'll just keep my hands on the bars when riding until I can check the steering stem nut.

It's a regular occurence on my 06 as well. I had heard that it was normal so I never paid attention to it and there's no indication of a problem as long as you even have just one finger on the bars...

similar concept on a pedal bike I guess... if you go no-hands while decelerating the front tire will start to wobble.

I've read claims, though, of people that swapped out their tires and "apparantly" fixed the "problem" because of the different tread patterns etc.

Okay, something weird is going on. I rode the bike to work this afternoon and the shimming/wobbling was greatly diminished when I tried to induce it. Still there, but barely noticeable. The only difference between this morning and this afternoon was that I had my tail bag on the rear of the bike coming to work. (weighs maybe 10 lbs) It does appear there might be something misaligned with my rear wheel, perhaps? I'll adjust my chain to doublecheck the rear wheel alignment. Pretty weird. :confused:

My 08 is completely stock aside from a painted windshield and fender chop, and I have never experienced any sort of wobble on my bike. I take my hands off the bars fairly frequently to stretch my arms and shoulders. It's usually at speeds around 50 on my way home, but I have done it as low as the 20s and as high as the 80s. Never any sort of wobble.

With all the stuff you have done to your bike, it may be a very slight misalignment somewhere. The rear tire sounds like the best starting place based on your tail bag experience. Good luck and keep us informed as usual!

thanks for your feedback. it does seem like a crappy mechanic induced error. That guy is such a hack!!:mad:

I'll recheck the rear wheel alignment tomorrow. :)

I'd check tyre wear/tyre shape too - it could be the cause or help to provide tell tale signs of uneven wear caused by a misalignment.

You have a 140/70 on the rear and I think some on Kawi Forums mentioned that the 'fall in' to a turn seems much quicker and some attributed that to the altered profile by squeezing on the 140 to that rim. So if a tyre shape can affect cornering its possible that tyre shape/wear could affect your bike on the straight.

It could be a wheel balancing issue. I know that on my ford puma, I have to get all 4 wheels rebalanced annually as over the course of a year my steering wheel will still start to shake and by the end of the year you can hear the watch on the wrist of the arm holding the wheel rattle and by the time I'm doing 70mph, it rattles a lot. Then I get the wheels rebalanced and voila problem solved. Apparently its a problem common to puma's.

There's so many things it could be. I wish you luck in your endeavours.

Thanks for the ideas. I don't suspect wheel balancing as going in a straight line with my hands on the bars has no vibrations at all.

The tires have about 500 miles on them and I've been watching them closely, but no signs of irregular wear patterns.

I'll be sure to post up when I find the problem. :(

It's usually at speeds around 50 on my way home, but I have done it as low as the 20s and as high as the 80s.

It never happens at any speed other than 45 mph. Something about a particular resonant frequency of our frame/front-end assembly I'd guess. Go to a straight road, get your bike up to an indicated 55 mph in 6th gear, take your hands all the way off the bars, lean back (just a little, don't fall off!), and don't touch the bars until your speed indicates 40 mph. I have a hunch you might be surprised at what happens as you decelerate through 45ish mph...

Who balanced your wheels after putting on the new tires? < Thats the only thing I have ever seen cause it.

I have taken my hands of momentarily while adjusting a zipper and havent noticed any wobble. How long would you say you had your hands off before noticing this?

I don't think it's a matter of 2 seconds, 7 seconds, or 20 seconds with hands off the bars. I think it's a matter of am I decelerating through 45ish mph. If I'm going faster than that, no wobble no matter how long hands off bars. Below that, no wobble either. But if you're curious, try that test next time you're on the bike. (Get to 55ish mph in 6th gear, and take your hands off while the bike decelerates down to 40ish mph. Don't leave your hands too far from the bars, and be ready to regrab them quickly if the phenomenon arises.) No guarantees that you'll have any wobble at all. But I'd venture a number of you might. Happens on 2 out of our 2 bikes at least, and there's piles of discussion on this on that other site (re: 1st gen ninjettes).

only time Ive experienced wobbles was in a car cause of tires not balanced properly...

maybe your forks got a little twisted or something when you dropped them back down? just a thought.

Who balanced your wheels after putting on the new tires? < Thats the only thing I have ever seen cause it.

I did :o

only time Ive experienced wobbles was in a car cause of tires not balanced properly...

Wobbles or vibration? This is the front end ocsillating side to side. I would think if the tire were out of balance there would be a vibration in a stright line, all the time.

maybe your forks got a little twisted or something when you dropped them back down? just a thought.

I'll check that, but I lowered and tightened the the legs one at a time to avoid having that happen. Also, if the forks got twisted, wouldn't the front wheel be not pointing straight ahead when the bars are? The front wheel is straight.

I'll check that, but I lowered and tightened the the legs one at a time to avoid having that happen. Also, if the forks got twisted, wouldn't the front wheel be not pointing straight ahead when the bars are? The front wheel is straight.

honestly, i'm not sure what affected twisted or binding forks has on the bike aside from maybe creating some stiction in your fork movement.

... it seems the clipons may be aggravating or amplifying the wobble.

i've noticed a wobble while letting go of the bars, that seems to be abit more pronounced since putting on the woodcraft clip on's. wobble on my bike isn't something i'd have to change underwear over, but its abit more noticeable since changing bars.

yeah, this is big time wobble at the bars. I would say when at it's worse (decelerating through 50mph), the end of the bar shakes back and forth at least 1-1.5". :eek:

yeah, this is big time wobble at the bars. I would say when at it's worse (decelerating through 50mph), the end of the bar shakes back and forth at least 1-1.5". :eek:

maybe you're hula dancing and don't even realize it? :confused:
i can see that creating some wobble. :rolleyes:

maybe you're hula dancing and don't even realize it? :confused:
i can see that creating some wobble. :rolleyes:

hey!!

you're enducing visuals i don't need :confused40:

hehehe

Yeah, I could see a little bit of headshake, but this is ridiculous.

No time to check the bike today... off to do other things.

Great next time it's dry Alex has put me up to decelerating from 50-40 with no hands on the bars. Thanks!

I have a stupid habit of going hands free while slowing down too often and have never noticed any kind of wobble. Steady as she goes, unless I'm driving with the pegs.

cool... when will that be?? :)

Well, it was hailing last time I looks outside so not today! I'm not overly excited about the ride home, hands on or off.

hailing??? exactly where are you located? :confused:

be safe on the ride home. :o

Sacramento, CA and it's screwed up winter weather. Thank god my rain pants are at home and my wife stole my warm & waterproof gloves for her commute!

I got a squeek, I think it is coming from the front end, but I don't want to get this thread off topic. I rode mine in to a Appt and just did the hands off thing to see if I had a wobble, none that I could feel.

nb

NB,

thanks for the input :)

squeak= http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11686&highlight=squeak

Hey Kelly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but what do you have your rear shock preload set at? If it's set way too high it can induce a tank slapper, so maybe you just have it set a little too high? Don't forget that you're probably changing the weight distribution on the wheels if you're using rearsets. If you haven't adjusted the preload since you installed them maybe you should check it. Drop it down a notch and see if it handles any better.

Thanks TF... I'll keep that in mind. The shock is presently set on 2. (one up from the softest) I have a few other things to try out as well, so I hope one of these will lessen the problem to an acceptable degree.

I don't believe the pre-load setting alone will cause a wobble. In a straight line on a relatively flat and level road, the suspension isn't even doing much at all, so the relative stiffness of the shock doesn't come in to play. It's only if the pre-load setting jacks the rear end of the bike up, affecting the front-end geometry. Going from 1 to 2 on the rear isn't going to move it much at all, unless you're < 100 pounds. :D

Going from 1 to 2 on the rear isn't going to move it much at all, unless you're < 100 pounds. :D
nope, don't have that problem. :D

No answers here, but to add, my 09 with about 1200 miles doesn't wobble. Figured i'd throw my 2 cents in.

even when you take your hands off the bars at 50mph?

Yes sir. 50 mph. Deacceleration, slight turning. Straight as an arrow. I haven't done anything with any of the wheels except check chain tension. It was fine, so the rear wheel stayed where it was. When my chain needs retensioned I'll get back to you.

thank you for your input. :)

/moving to tech talk

On our 2004, it happened for me like clockwork. Yet when one of the dealership folks tried exactly what I asked them to do, it barely wobbled. The first dealership person on the bike was a tiny little dude. After a second visit, they had someone with a little more, well, mass try the same test, and the same bike wobbled exactly like I said it would. So it certainly may be load-dependent; and I'd imagine that would affect how much weight is toward the back of the bike when your arms are off the bars and you're leaning back.

So CB, if it doesn't wobble at all for you, take that as a personal compliment as well as your bike's. :)

I tried it this morning on mine. I have no wobble at all.

Well, I will say when I took my hands off I was still leaning forward. I actually put my bike on race kart scales to get the weight distribution with rider on and rider off. It was 49/51 for both. That's with me in the riding position. I weigh 165lbs and am 5'4". I don't know ya'll dimensions but maybe that will help.

Ok, so I went and did it in the rain anyway... stupid weather.

First attempt: Nothing 50 down to 40, rock steady. I had just shifted up though and so RPMs were kinda low. Just throwing that out there.

2nd attempt: Is that a wiggle? Might have been a wiggle... ****, I'm focusing on the bars and my weight is shifted and the bike is turning... wtf is that car doing? Why in hell am I doing internet experiments in the rain during rush hour? Definitely wouldn't have described it as a wobble.

I'm about 140-150lbs if we're data gathering. Shock setting 2. Pressure in tires probably down 1-2 psi since I'm slack and haven't checked lately.

3rd attempt: I was on my wife's 250cc scooter... OMFG, do not let go of the bars on a scooter!!!!! Seriously. That was most surprising. Slapslapslapslap.

Couple of asides: Gah, I knew this wasn't originally in Tech!

and Woot, raining like mad again and I brought the gloves.... and the pants are still at home b/c it never rains on the way to work.

James. Thanks for your input... I think. Ride safe, man. I wouldn't want to be the cause of some one's crash just cause I'm having a problem. :(

Oh I'm exaggerating. Except for the scooter bit. Seriously, don't do that.

Nice and sunny on the way in today, 3 tests, if there is any kind of consistent wobble it's very slight and hard to spot.

Thank you, sir, for your feedback. :thumbup:

Nice and sunny on the way in today, 3 tests, if there is any kind of consistent wobble it's very slight and hard to spot.

Not sure if Alex experiences the same, but my wobble is definitely noticeable. Though the weight theory is kinda shot, cause I only weigh 135lbs :rolleyes:

Then again, my bike's a little skewed - being 2006 with lowering links.

Ohhh... Yes. The stock handlebars have weights and the Woodcraft do not, right? That could certainly contribute to the problem. The weights would have a damper effect.

Some tall skyscrapers have a giant weight in the top fifth or so of the building. It's free swinging like a pendulum and it will counteract any sway in the building because of it's inertia. The same thing goes with the bar ends but just a much smaller scale. They counter the small vibrations and ocillations.

That being said, there is probably more to the wobble than that. I haven't noticed any wobble on my 08 unless i induce it.

yep, and that's why I sorta cross posted this problem over in the DIY on installing the clipons hoping those with clipons might respond if they are noticing increased oscillations since switching. Then again, most people don't ride with both hands off the bars to begin with. :)

Kelly, My bike did the oscillation trip as well. I initially suspected a fork oil issue. My Norton was fussy that way. Took the bike to my friend who works on Ducati and other sportbikes. He told me not to trust the wheel alignment hash marks on the swingarms--his view is that they are reference marks that will sort of be in the area. He says that the only way to get a proper alignment is with a straight edge across the sprockets. Once he aligned my bike in this fashion, the oscillations stopped. Those marks are not precise. Properly aligned sprockets will insure a quieter ride and better chain longevity. Hopethat helps.

Thanks, Alex. That's been one of my suspicions also and have ordered a motion pro alignment tool to insure a precise rear wheel alignment in the future. Right now, I am using the threads on the rear adjusting bolts as my guide and I have them pretty much equal, but who really knows? If it's worth anything, I'm not seeing abnormal wear patterns on either the front or rear tire.

Thanks for confirming that a misaligned rear wheel can induce these wobbles as I've suspected from the start. :thumbup:

Kelly, once you get the whole thing aligned, borrow some of the GF`s nail polish and paint the threads. This will allow a visual on a regular basis. I have a stainless yardstick that I use for the alignement. She has green nail polish--I`m sure.

Alex, thanks for the nail polish tip. I'll just use my own. :eek:

Wellllll......If you quit hotdogging around:eek:

I didn't have any issues on the '08. I am 220lb and have removed both hands momentarily, at all speeds.

I agee with rear wheel alignment though, those hash marks create more harm than good.

Does anyone have a throttle lock?

I would not write this off...just because it happens to "all the other bikes"

Are you sure your balance isn't off:p

I'm not discounting anything at this point. The balance could very well be off, but in my experience with unbalanced tires/wheels, the vibration would increase as the speeds increased and would be a very linear symptom with regards to speed. This happens only when deaccelerating coming back down through 50-40 mph, with hands off the bars. As soon as I put my hands back on, it stops.

Kelly, What you are describing is exactly what was going on with my bike. I was going in the direction of fork oil until I took the bike to a mechanic everybody around here respects a lot---we even go to his shop even though he chain smokes Marlboros. He got on my bike and took off down the road--came back in five minutes, and solved the problem. He had it fixed in 15 minutes. I hope he gets the Ducati dealership. He is really good. I have honestly not seen a mechanic this good in my entire riding career

i can take off my hands and i get wobble, but i always thought it was the road. sometimes it does it and sometimes it doesnt....

Welcome to the forum, Parker.

Thanks for your input. :)

Welcome to the forum, Parker.

Thanks for your input. :)

I will try to contribute more often, I just have been hanging out on the BMW E30 boards lately with a broken down car.

Just to help out a little on this topic : I ride my ninja to work every day, and when I let go of the bars today, I got no wobble, but was on a fresh road. About 40 MPH im guessing.

Got on a different type of pavement a little later on my commute and tried again at the same speed and got a little shake. My personal belief would be a combination of a couple things.
- rear tire alignment
- road conditions
- and maybe weight distribution.

The front end shake your talking about happened to me this morning. I took my hands off to do up my zipper and it happened......about 40 mph. Grabbed onto the bars and it was fine after that. I think the way the road is has to do something with it too, because i have let go of the bars before and nothing happens. I am not to worried about it though....i dont ride to fast with no hands anyway.


And as stated before about the car. In my Jeep it happened to me a few times. It is called DW (death wobble) There are several things that cause it... incorrect suspension geometry, unbalanced tires, bad tie rod ends, tire pressure, ball joints etc. ect. And it is much worse (violent shaking, can barley hold onto the wheel) then what i experienced on my bike.

Tried a few things to try and get rid of the wobble.

I went back and retorqued my front axle to the spec. I had set it a bit light due to the problems people were having with the squeaky front wheel problem.

I also, dropped the forks in the triple clamps about an inch. I know it seems counterintuitive, but I had read somewhere that raising the forks could cause wobbles, so I tried lowering the forks.

The last thing I did was to go back and realign my rear wheel. It was off and I set it back to dead straight ahead.

With all of these items done, none helped the wobbling problem. :( At least I know what's not causing it.

Carry on, Garth!!

ok i finally got a chance to ride the bike since i installed the WC clipons and i noticed the bars wobble when i take my hands off the bars. i know when i had the stock bars on it never did this. i also think the stock bars have alot more weight to them which is why the clip ons have that wobble effect to them. i feel if it was an alignment issue or a balance issue you would feel that wobble when riding and not just see it when you let go of the bars.

Chris,

We'll see as I've installed the stock bar end weights to my clipons, but have not ridden the bike with them on, yet. Will do so, hopefully, tomorrow. :)

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14281

Kelly,

As a test today, I took my hands off the clipons at 50 MPH with no wobbles. Of course, I have the factory tires, etc.

Sam -

Did you let the bike decelerate on its own from 50 mph to 40 mph with your hands off the bars?

Hahaha. Nice Wayne's World reference :) That's not a bad idea though on the weighted bar ends. I was thinking about doing the same thing using your cheatin' way of doing it :p . It's weird that people with the SV650 clip-ons aren't having that problem. Perhaps they are heavier or just naturally absorb vibration better? Who knows.

Kelly,

I let go of the handlebars (stock) at an indicated 90mph, 80mph, 70mph, 60mph, and 50mph. I let the bike decelerate for 10mph at each speed. At all speeds it's rock- solid on my bike.

Sam -

Did you let the bike decelerate on its own from 50 mph to 40 mph with your hands off the bars?
Yesterday, I forgot that is what kkim did, so no I didn't. Today, I tried again, this time letting go at 50 down to 40. No wobbles!

Sam -

Did you let the bike decelerate on its own from 50 mph to 40 mph with your hands off the bars?

what gear do you hit 50-60mph with stock gearing at about half way through the rpm range?

i'm headed to the track again on friday morning and might test it out on my bike a bit. you guys have me curious. not sure my results will be any use to you guys since my suspension and geometry is modified though.

I'm in 6th gear when it is happening, but I don't think the gear has anything to do with it.

Today I went for a ride since putting on my bar weights on the clipons. Same results... wobbling when decelerating from 50-40mph.

Damn... this is really starting to piss me off.:mad:

just wondering so i can try it... i don't have a dash so i never know my rpm or speed ;)

lol... I forgot. :D

6th gear, 8000 RPM, and let it go down to 4000 RPM. You'll cross through 45ish mph at some point there. ;)

wheres redline on these bikes?

13k.

While i had the SV650 clips i didn't have the wobble you describe.
And now that i changed to the WoodCrafts i still don't have the wobble.
I left the barend weights off and i'm having no issues.
Maybe it's a rider weight thing... i'm at 195 lbs.:confused:

I'm about 160-170, so I doubt rider weight has anything to do with it. I'm leaning towards something to do with the front tire/wheel or steering stem. I have yet to check any of these, though I did retorque the front axle nut w/o any changes. Thanks for your input, though. seems like there is no rhyme or reason why some wobble and some don't. :confused:

have not had time to work on the bike recently... playing Honda Civic mechanic getting the car ready for sale. :o

i forgot to try it at the track this weekend. i have another track day on sunday though, maybe i'll remember this time.

i had this problem n it was the tire i got was unbalanced
so check ur tire its self not only the rim
lift ur front tire off the ground n spin the tire
feel the edge of the tire with ur thumb u
will feel some spots r out more then others
i hade the same problem 40 to 30 mph n the dealer
said this was why i changed the tire n it went away

good luck

thanks. I've always suspected I might have gotten a bum front tire as this started up after I changed both front and rear tires. I'll try the tests you mention.

mahalo for your feedback
:)

I tried taking my hands off the bars a few times and decelled at the track this weekend and got no hint of wobbles
Posted via Mobile Device

thanks. :yo:

time to start hunting again. :(

No wobbles here on the 09. But like I posted above, I constantly have it on my 06 and found nothing wrong with it and no abnormal tire wear.

Have you consider putting in a steerling damper? You can easily fab up a bracket and put in a cheap stock gixxer one or if you like you can go with ohlins if you want the best. It'll solve the prob for sure and prevent any possible tank slapping for safety measures. A few bones def worth dismounting the bike superman-style ;)
Posted via Mobile Device

Kelly, I just found this thread. I had this happen on my first GSXR 750R Limited back in 1986. The limited had the dry clutch (which was great) but also had the bigger front forks off the GSXR 1100. I put dymag wheels and track tires on it (not slicks) and it had a scary head shack after that. The suspension had to be tuned to get rid of the problem. Cycle magazine did a whole article about it. I know we changed the rear shock and retuned the front forks but me being a rider not a mechanic I don't remember exactly how it was set up. All I remember is it worked. It was all in the suspension.

I still don’t think the suspension has anything to do with it. The bike was just fine before the install of the clip-on after the install the bars wobble. Installing the clip-on does not mess with the tire balance or alignment so it’s not that. It’s not a defective tire or it would have been noticed with the stock bars. Only way for me to describe what is happening is once you take your hands off the bars it looks like your operating a jack hammer(just the bars move/wobble and it steers straight). Kelly can you confirm this or are you experiencing something different?

Chris,

That's accurate. When decel through 50-40 with hands off the bars, the front end will wiggle wildly if I let it. As soon as I put my hands back on the bars, it stops.

To be fair, I did notice a slight oscillation in the bars when coming downhill decel through a corner at approx. 40 mph when leaned over after I did my tire change. I only noticed the wild oscillation with the hands off the bars after the installation of the clipons, so it might have been there prior but after the tire change.

i still have the stock tires and noticed it after the install. once its nice again ima try to mess around with it.

My bike actually does the wobble thing all the time. Almost every ride in fact. It gets pretty bad too. Sometimes it gets bad enough that it'll wobble even with my hands on the bars. I have noticed recently though that it only happens while I'm engine braking. If I stick myself in neutral (which is probably bad going that fast, but I'm a newb. Please correct that in me if it's wrong) and let it decel from there with my hands off, there's no wobble at all, whereas when I'm in gear during the decel with no hands it will wobble almost every time. I always thought it had something to do with the slight raise in vibration when engine braking. As for fixing it, I have no idea! Sorry. Not a mechanic by any sense of the word. :rolleyes:

do you have the stock bars or clipons?

Stock bars. Clipons are yet to come. :rolleyes: I re-tested after that last post and found that it does wobble a little after 40mph even in neutral, but it wobbles MUCH more obviously and violently when engine braking. Just what I found. Hope it helps. :D

Kelly, what is the status on your wobble?

nb

still the same. I haven't done anything after the rear wheel alignment. still mulling it over, but I think the next step is to pull the front wheel back off and check the steering stem for tightness. I have a suspicion I may have gotten bum tire from the get go.

Ever think of getting apehangers? Those clipons are hard on your wrists.

Kelly, I just bought a GSXR 1000 and as I was going through the gsxr forum I noticed this thread.

front end wobble

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i have a 03 1000 bought it 3 weeks ago the first 2 times i rode it if i let go of the bars there was no wobble i replaced the upper triple tree rode it yesterday now when i let go of the bars they wobble any ideals?

Re: front end wobble

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had this on my 05 zx6r and i ended up tightening the steering head up a bit and it solved my problem..

ps- i had no noticeable slop in the bearings when lifted from the frame, although the service manual stated the head shouldnt "return" if you bounce the steering off the stop lightly, and mine did, so i just gave it a few taps with a hammer and snugged it up, perfect after that.

Just some information, I'm not sure if it is good or bad.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m266/ezmoneytrg/IMG_0170.jpg

you could always install an Ohlins stabilizer........:thumbup:

Thanks. I know loose steering head adjusters can lead to the wobbles, but that doesn't explain why this all started after I changed the tire. I'll check it out though as that's what I've figured out might be a cause of the wobble.

GSXR 1000, huh??? have fun, my friend! :ride:

Kelly,
I've been picking up bikes to cheap to pass up. $6000 for a 03 Lowrider (3000 miles) and I only paid $2000 for the 06 GSXR 1000 (8000 miles). I have to add that they were through people I knew. I didn't find them on the classified. Just folks that needed money.

I just missed a 69 Bonneville in good shape for $800. I'm more on a Norton guy anyway.

damn... how many bikes in your stable right now? :D

Before you can the front tire, dismount the tire from the rim, then remount it.

Another thing to think about Kelly, how windy is it when you trying to do this? Does your jacket flap and flutter easily? The wind tugging on your jacket will cause you to shift your weight in small amounts. When your hands are on the bars, your hands by reflex counter the shift in weight, but without your hands on the bars, your weight shift transfers to the steering in small amounts. On a bike as light as the 250R, it is easily noticeable. Depending on how pronounced the profile of the tire is, say, more triangular, it gives you a smaller amount of footprint, which will also add to the slight shake.

Just something to think about.

yep, as a last resort, dismounting and remounting is on the bottom of the list to get rid of the wobble.

Aerostich one piece suit, so no fluttering of riderwear. And it will happen in all level of winds from no wind to gusty conditions. It is definitely coming from/being caused by something to do with the bike.

I do not have clip ons but I tried letting my hands free after reading this thread and I hade a little bit of wobble then I added zzr 1200 stock bar ends to the bike and no more wobble but it could have been the road aswell

Supersport bike?
Steering damper = allowing supersport bikes to push the trail envelope.

Having a headshake on a bike that ISN'T even close to pushing the trail evelope?
Steering damper = a bandaid that doesn't fix the problem, but hides the symptoms.

I'm surprised over the months you still haven't knocked this problem out. I think since I've broken my tires in my headshake issues have lessened. I agree with checking the head bearings though. It's an easy enough thing to adjust.

Dont you need to push the forks up when you install clipons? Actually increasing the angle making it more prone to head-shake? I noticed that you said it started with a tire change but.. maybe to keep in mind that the clipons might contribute to the problem.

wobble was there after the tire change and before the clipons... just got worse when the clipons were installed.

with the clipons installed, I've tried different amounts of fork sticking up above the clamps and the wobble is still there.

I'm waiting for a used radial replacement to arrive in the mail so I can replace the tire (suspect a defective tire) and see if the change gets rid of the wobble. If not, I'll start looking at bearings as my next step.

Just a thought but have you checked that your sprockets are proprely tourqued? Any mis-alignment issues going on there? If one of the spinning gyroscopes (wheels motor sprockets etc) is wobbleing then it stands to reason that the force would be transfered to all of them. Hope you get it sorted out. I was gona buy a set of clip-ons but now im a little gun shy. If the DYI master is having problems it makes me nervous. By the way I have no wobble issues any where at any time. Good luck Kelly and keep us posted

fyi: i have the woodcraft clipons and have no wobble at all

Kevin,

don't let my experience shy you away from the clipons. They are a great mod :thumbup: and others that have installed them are not having the issues I am. Besides, as posted, I was having this problem after I changed the tire and before I installed the clipons. The installation of the clipons just made the wobbling seem worse, most likely due to the lighter bars they provide.

as for rear wheel/sprocket alignment, I already tried that in this thread...
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13833

thanks, though... have fun! :ride:

Broom did you weight the ends? And another question if I may, do you run hotbodies plastic? Im turning my 250 into a track bike lol. Im planning on getting a set of clip-ons, rearsets, and new plastic. Anything else I missed? Im also curious about what brake pads you like. I know about the rear shock upgrade but Im gona wait on that a while. I might also swap the oil in the front forks but that will be later also. I ordered a set of michelin pilots but until I wear out the 501's Im gona rock those. Too bad no one here in the midwest runs E superstock.

if you do rearsets and are using the bike for the track, take off the kickstand and grind down the kickstand mounting tab.

Kickstands already in the box with the rest of the assorted parts. Anything else I can pull to save weight?? I am trying to make an exhaust holder so I can ditch the rear pegs. Id like to pull the dash but I still need a tach and would like to add a temp gauge any Ideas there Kelly?? Sorry for the hi-jack.

Kevin,

post up in the racing section asking how to save weight at the track. I'm sure you'll get some great suggestions. :)

happy to say i've never experienced this wobble on my 09

Mine wobbles, at the same 80k/h decel before and after clip-ons and rear wheel alignment. I'm at a loss to what it might be although I'm not too concerned about a sub 200 k/h bike and 50 mph wobble that only happens when "look ma...." still sucks though.

Mine is starting to wobble. 6600 miles. No adjustments. I should adjust the chain but I was kind of curious about the wobble so I haven't yet. My tire has about had it. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Mine is starting to wobble. 6600 miles. No adjustments. I should adjust the chain but I was kind of curious about the wobble so I haven't yet. My tire has about had it. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Probably because you use every bit of your tire and not just the chicken stripe. I wish I could say the same about my tires. Keep leaning CB !!!

I do have a massive flat spot in the middle. That's why I need new ones. :(

Hey KKIM. I was browsing bridgestone's website and found that PDF with tire information..and I think this relates to your problem :D

http://mc.bridgestone.co.jp/en/products/size/on_bias.html

Shimmy:
Left and right vibration of the steering assembly while driving in a straight line.

Low speed shimmy
Occurs when coastin down from around 80 km/h, peaks around 45-50 km/h. (vibration frequency: 3-5 hz).

High-speed shimmy
Occurs at around 110-120 km/h, the magnitude is small (vibration frequency: 10-15 hz)

Cause
A phase difference between the corning(cornering?) force and the self aligning torque. (That goes over my head but you can research into it, lol).

Tire related factors
Wear stage, inflaction pressure (high inflation pressure is better as it reduces the contact area), tread gauge, tread compound characteristic, casing stiffness, cord angle, etc.

IMO it looks like a tire related problem...

you mentioned the steering stem, is it at the proper torque? could the bearings be worn?

I'm gonna mess with the tire pressure, i have the front @25 psi atm, I'll give 30/30 a go.....hope it's tire related

Remy- Thanks for the link info. I do think it's tire related and I finally got a spare tire last week, so I'm going to change out the front tire and see if the problem disappears.

Greg- I did try tapping on the steering stem collar nuts with a hammer and a drift punch to snug them up, but they wouldn't budge, so I'm assuming they are tight at this point.

I'll try changing the tire first and then work from there.

thanks, guys. :thumbup:

i would think to if it was the steering stem loose or its bearings you could support the bike under the frame with front wheel off the ground and feel some play if someone held the bike and you pushed, pulled down low on the fork sliders.

Kelly,
Did you ever figure out the problem? Mine seems to be shaking alot around 50mph with hands off the bars, mildly at 40 with hands off the bars. No mods here at all. Tire pressures 29F, 32R cold to the touch, very cold this week. Rear wheel aligned by the count the threads and measure the threads in mm (redundant I know). Steering stem at 32 ft lbs. Thinking rear tire as I now have 8,200 miles and center is looking a bit flat.

I also had a slight wobble. I have a throttle lock and when engaged and hands off the bars, I would get the bars shaking at almost any speed. I recently adjusted my chain and the wobble went away. Btw, when I adjusted the chain I measured from the center of the axel to the center of where the swing arm pivots. Had to remove the exhaust to do it but it worked great.

Thanks Bob, that was always my mx bike method. Easy to do as pipe is up high. Might have to try that next.

Glad you mentioned the throttle lock, that takes chopping the throttle out of the list of suspects.

never figured out the wobble source and the bike still does it. I will be changing tires in the next couple of weeks and we'll see if that cures the problem.

I think I will measure the center of the axle to the swingarm pivot, but out of laziness rather than pulling the exhaust maybe I will get one of those tailor tape measures and see if the 2 sides are unequal.

never figured out the wobble source and the bike still does it. I will be changing tires in the next couple of weeks and we'll see if that cures the problem.

I always knew the green ones were never straight
:p

I always knew the green ones were never straight
:p

... and yet they are faster. :D

... and yet they are faster. :D

...cause they are a little light in the loafers.....:boxing:

jk - gots luv fer allda two fiddys

jk - gots luv fer allda two fiddys

true... even if they aren't green. :lol:

Feel the tire tread block edges to see if its cupping. If so then its probably causing your wobbles. Mine cupped and that's what caused it, because when new tires were installed the wobbles went away.

Feel the tire tread block edges to see if its cupping. If so then its probably causing your wobbles. Mine cupped and that's what caused it, because when new tires were installed the wobbles went away.

no cupping here.... front or rear. my tires look perfect. that's what is so puzzling about this. :confused:

kelley, just paint the damn bike black and it will run like a champ. Sorry, can't help myself.:D Could it be a wheel out of balance or maybe a slight case a brake drag? Hope you are able to chase that ghost out of your bike soon.

Sean,

Sorry.. painting the bike black so it's so slow that it doesn't wobble is not an option. ;)

I'm hoping the tire change will cure the problem as I noticed this right after switching over to the new set. It's a livable situation as long as I keep my hands on the bars, though I can feel the front end wobble while midcorner if I'm off the throttle, leaned over and happen to be decelerating through the wobble zone (40-50mph). It does eat at my confidence a bit at those inopportune times.

I didn't read everyone's posts but if this is a repost ignore it:

Have you balanced your wheels after your last change? If so then the forks are twisted or binding.

I didn't read everyone's posts but if this is a repost ignore it:

Have you balanced your wheels after your last change? If so then the forks are twisted or binding.

Next time you should read through the thread, at least for posts by the OP - this is Kelly we're talking about - of COURSE he balanced his wheels

I have a pretty good oscillation from about 55mph down to 45 mph when taking my hands off the bars. Above 55 no problem, below 40 no problem. As posted earlier bike is all stock with 8K for miles with original tires. Front tire looks great. Back is starting to flatten across the middle front pressure is 28 cold and rear is 32, according to 2 guages. Might bump them up a couple psi each. Per the chain adjuster guides (I know questionable) both sides are about 2 1/2 notches from the front. Each adjuster has 6 threads showing behind the locking nut. With stock exhaust it is hard to get a measure from the axle to the swingarm pivot.

I tried one other thing. I removed the chain guard. I measured the clearance from the front of the rim to the swingarm. The left side had about a 1/2 inch more clearance than the right. To me the swingarm looks symmetrical. Has anyone noticed less clearance on the right?

Stopped by dealership at lunch and saw a couple mechanic friends. They checked steering head for play and couldn't find any slop. They checked the rear wheel alignment and found it to be off .6mm. Didn't think that was enough to cause problem but I will adjust it tonight. Double checked air pressure. Bike has 8,500 miles. Front shows now sign of cupping, just normal wear. Rear is in need of replacement soon, but wear is not abnormal. Their concensus is that bike shouldn't have any shake and they recommend rebalancing front wheel (and of course replacing rear tire). Couldn't find any balance weight - I am not sure if there was one and it fell off??

I take my hands off the bars extremely often at all speeds and never saw this until last night (10,400 miles). It started a violent shake that looked like it would have progressed to a full-on tank-slapper had I not grabbed 'em when I did. I was probably under 30MPH decelerating to a stop light that I frequently decelerate at the same exact way. Everything is stock on my bike.

I've got a case of the hands-off shimmies, too!

It just started in the last few weeks.

Wheels are aligned fine, tire pressure at spec.

It doesn't seem to matter what speed I am going, but it always when decelerating, whether it be 90mph or 20mph.
(I can't say I have the same problem when accellerating with both of my hands off the bars as I haven't found a good way to do this yet, lol.)

I'm 250lbs and it seems to be worse when I stand up on the footpegs with no hands, or sit up on the tank (showing off.)

My back tire is showing cords, the front one is starting to entirely lose its tread. So I'm not going to worry about the shimmies or fixing them until the tires are replaced this week.

I second Brooms comments.

By dropping your fork lower you might not have level the fork at its natural state or level so creating binding in the process.

I installed a fork brace on my bike and at first I just clamp on the brace with the bike on its side stand and go riding, I notice the bike starts to wobble around 80mph and at fast corners the front end just feel twitchy at certain lean angels.

Got home, take off the fork brace, put bike on center stand and push the forks up and down cycling through its travel couple times and let it settle, then clamp on the fork brace back on.....presto!!! problem solved

Check that you drop your fork equally on both legs as that is my suspect to your problem.

mine does the same thing. i learned to live with it.

still happens when coming down from 50 to 40 mph with hands off bars, and new rear tire. perhaps with more adjustable suspension this could be solved. reason i think this is some of us have the shake others don't. there are various sized riders here, height and weigh, as well as some might sit more forward while others don't. i find if i sit back more it happens less.

look at a full on race bike. the seating position is set and the suspension is dialed in. getting it right can be like jetting as you keep adjusting until it gets better and then you go a bit too far and have to back it off a couple, with the added complexity that an adjustment on the rear can impact the front, or vice versa. my thought therefore is maybe, maybe some more rebound damping in the shock, or a stiffer fork spring would reduce headshake.

I installed a fork brace on my bike and at first I just clamp on the brace with the bike on its side stand and go riding, I notice the bike starts to wobble around 80mph and at fast corners the front end just feel twitchy at certain lean angels.

Mine did that too when I properly adjusted the preload on the front end for my weight. While it felt more solid most of the time at about 80mph in a sweeper the front end felt like the triples were mounted in playdoh. I didn't notice any different in wobble at low speeds though. I've since gone back to factory configuration and while there is definately a lot more sag it feels better at higher speeds, though not as tight when throwing a 90 degree right turn around town.

Mine spontaneously started doing this back in November (1.3yo, 10K mi at the time).

I've mentioned this elsewhere but I should add it to this thread: Mine did not do this for the first year but spontaneously started doing it after a year and a few months. I did have a tire change a month prior, but I can't say if it started then. I can say that I didn't notice despite frequently releasing the bars when I stop before and after the tire change.

A bike that didn't do it now does. Take that FWIW.

Here is my "theory":

When the bike is running on a perfectly flat and smooth road surface, this would not happen, but if the road is uneven, e.g. grooved, the front wheel maybe slightly deflected to one side or the other. When the front wheel is deflected, say, to the right, this would cause the body of the bike to lean slightly to the left. This would cause the front wheel to reorient to the left, which would then cause the body of the bike to lean slightly to the right, which will cause the front wheel to reorient to the right... Thus, the oscillation.

Here is my "theory":

When the bike is running on a perfectly flat and smooth road surface, this would not happen, but if the road is uneven, e.g. grooved, the front wheel maybe slightly deflected to one side or the other. When the front wheel is deflected, say, to the right, this would cause the body of the bike to lean slightly to the left. This would cause the front wheel to reorient to the left, which would then cause the body of the bike to lean slightly to the right, which will cause the front wheel to reorient to the right... Thus, the oscillation.

That would apply to all of the same design, but some bikes that didn't do it now do.

I routinely slow down with no handlebars and never experienced a wobble. My bike is still young at 1300 miles. Hope that doesn't change :D

The annoying shimmy of the front end when removing my hands has GONE AWAY!

I'm sure it had more to do with the new BT45 tires that I just had changed than the ZX6R rear shock swap, but its something to ponder.

K Kim - I hope you have found a solution by now. If not, I've heard someone had solved this problem and solved it by checking / tightening the steering stem.

Mine still does it slightly from 50 down to 40. I have tried various air pressure, having steering stem re-torqued, rear wheel alignment. I am betting a new front tire will be the cure. The tire looks fine to the naked eye, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Wow... interesting issue. I did notice that when I rode my 250 home that the handle bars were light as a feather compared to my zx10 so I never really trusted them to let either one go... lol From my experience putting around testing the suspension after I lowered it, the front end is extremely sensitive. Not sure if its from the combination of lowering it and me being on it or what. I just exercised caution. This was the reason I did the GPR damper for the wife as I didn't want any surprises. I did notice the bolt holding the triple tree was VERY easy to loosen and that my fork nut (no jokes now..) was loose... (lol) I had to take all that apart to install the GPR bracket and put it all back together and it was better.

Mine has been doing this for a while, and I just did a bunch of suspension work that i hoped would help: R6 rear shock, ex500 springs, new chain/sprockets/complete swingarm cleaning/greasing, front end 'alignment' as per the wiki, etc.


It still does it. I'm inclined to think its the crappy front tire I have on there now but i'm not sure. Most of the time I only notice it when im slowing down around 40 or so hands off the bars, but the other day i was pushing it pretty hard through some twistiest and in one of them at around 60mph or so i was leaning almost far enough for my boots to start dragging and suddenly the front end went all sloppy, scared the crap out of me! I then slowly pushed it harder and harder through a few more turns and noticed it a few more times, although not quite as bad.

I hope putting a better front tire on will solve the issue... i don't think theres much else for me to try.

The annoying shimmy of the front end when removing my hands has GONE AWAY!

I'm sure it had more to do with the new BT45 tires that I just had changed than the ZX6R rear shock swap, but its something to ponder.

Yep. New to me take-off GT501 tires fixed mine. :thumbup:

So what front tyre did you change to - that solved your wobbles. Thanks. I am on 110 pirelli sport demon - and I have the problem.

So what front tyre did you change to - that solved your wobbles. Thanks. I am on 110 pirelli sport demon - and I have the problem.

BT45, same as factory size. I'll have to look up the numbers to be any more exact.

So what front tyre did you change to - that solved your wobbles. Thanks. I am on 110 pirelli sport demon - and I have the problem.

FWIW I'm on the Pirelli Sport Demons 110/130 front/back and don't have any wobble issues. Did the "look ma, no hands" on the highway once to make sure I wasn't damping it out without noticing.

Did the "look ma, no hands" on the highway once to make sure I wasn't damping it out without noticing.

It's not just no hands at highway speeds, do the same no hands routine while letting the bike decelerate down from highway speeds to 40 mph or so...

Mine will also wobble a little from 46-40 on deceleration only.....doesn't seem like its too big of a deal. It only will wobble with "no hands" on the bars.....didn't notice until I tried it after reading this thread.....Maybe it has something to do with more weight on the front while decelerating. :confused:

...but not all 250 ninjas do this. :confused:

I have 110 front, 140 back, and lowered the front end by ~ 20 mm. But I can't be sure when the problem started:eek:

Mine was doing it BARELY before the clip ons.
I could barely notice it. You have to be trained well to notice it without clip ons. It is extremely minute.

It does it much more with clip ons.

Dunno if it does it with my new tires, I'll check. FWIW I'm on a bent frame now and wasn't before.

It did it when the frame was straight with stock handlebars too anyways, but like I said, barely even noticeable. Seriously.

My steering stem nut is properly adjusted.

This "wobble" does not seem to induce tank slappers. It goes right away after a little shimmy.
Only happens with no hands on the bars when decelerating at certain speeds. In a couple different gears.

It's not just no hands at highway speeds, do the same no hands routine while letting the bike decelerate down from highway speeds to 40 mph or so...

So, checked this again today as you suggested, on decel from highway speeds to 40-ish. It does wobble between ~48 and 40 (indicated) if I go hands-free, checked and consistent across 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. Don't feel it a bit with my hands even just resting on the bars, so not concerned. Thanks for correcting me though Alex.

Not sure if it did before I switched to clipons, but it's so minor now I'm not gonna bother with it. I am using the stock bar ends, so that may play into it somewhat.

I must admit this is the first thread I haven't at least mostly read through before replying. Bad habit to start.

:) No worries, Paul! Both of our ninjettes have done it, I have a hunch it may have something to do with rider weight and particular tire construction, but like you and others have mentioned, it really isn't a big deal in the scheme of things.

It is for me... I still have this problem. Will be changing front tire in the next few weeks.

My main concern is in a turn at that speed zone. I throttle into the turn, cut the throttle and as the bike is leaned over and decelerating, I can feel the front end wobble even with my hands on the bars. It's very slight, but very disconcerting in the middle of a turn while you're apexing.

On a straight with my hands off the bars, the bike will oscillate so bad, I know if I let it continue the bike would headshake itself into a highside.

I'm truly hoping changing out the front tire will cure or at least lessen the wobbles.

Hey Kim, I actually managed to fix this problem on my bike! I used to have it pretty bad, just like you. It would go off even with my hands on the bars. I recently replaced my front brake rotor and my headshake is almost completely gone! There's still a very slight shake, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was. You might check that after your tire.

hmmm... wouldn't a warped rotor show up during braking? or are you saying, even though your rotor wasn't warped, it helped? :confused:

My rotor was definitely warped. The weird thing was, it didn't show up nearly as much in regular braking as it did in the headshake. I felt a slight pulse when braking, but it was so slight I couldn't feel it unless I was really feeling for it. When we took it off, my mechanic said it was pretty bad and said it would be better if I just trashed the thing rather than keeping it as a spare. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but it fixed the problem. :confused20:

You can feel a slightly bent rotor as a pulse in the brake lever as feedback from the brake fluid when you squeeze the lever.

(Ask me how I know)

I don't think the front end wobbles described here are caused by the rotor, as I also just replaced my rotor and front rim and tires and still have a wobble.

It seems to have a lot to do with the weight of the handlebars to me, but I can't be sure.
The stock bars were very heavy, even without the bar ends.
Those were the first and only things I changed to get the wobbles to be pronounced on the bike. (Although they were barely detectable and there before the clip ons too!)

FWIW, I'm using the clips with the included plastic weightless bar ends.

How strange. Yeah, like I said, I felt the pulse before I replaced the rotor, and I could tell it was warped after I took it off. But I know for a fact (having a couple of butt-hole puckering situations) that I had some nasty headshake before the rotor change, and after it was changed the problem was about 95% fixed. There's still a very slight shake, but it's not nearly as bad as it was.

Kelly, New front tire cured my headshake. Smooth so far.

thanks for the feedback, Greg.

I changed out a worn rear tire a few weeks ago and that did not cure the problem. Hopefully when I get around to changing the front tire, too, the problem will disappear like yours has. Congrats.... it must be nice to ride w/o having to worry about the wobble cropping up at an inopportune moment.

which front tire did you install?

thanks for the feedback, Greg.

I changed out a worn rear tire a few weeks ago and that did not cure the problem. Hopefully when I get around to changing the front tire, too, the problem will disappear like yours has. Congrats.... it must be nice to ride w/o having to worry about the wobble cropping up at an inopportune moment.

which front tire did you install?

Worn front tire replacement fixed mine, too.

thanks, duck. I've had this wobble ever since changing to the bt040s. After reading of the wobbles disappearing after a tire change on your bikes, I think I just got a bum tire.

thanks, duck. I've had this wobble ever since changing to the bt040s. After reading of the wobbles disappearing after a tire change on your bikes, I think I just got a bum tire.

Make a front tire blow video and post it, lol. :thumbup:

Make a front tire blow video and post it, lol. :thumbup:

Duckman, you know those green bikes can't go that fast! kkim would need to put it on a BLACK bike for that! :D

Use sensitive static balancer instead of stock axle to balance front tire!
Saw your DYI tire change and maybe it will help!
Also check out of round and wobble if you have a magnetic base to use
a dial indicator.
Seems you already thought of everything and just a few more ideas if you haven't already tried it!
Good luck!
So far I haven't had this problem and with stock tires, or the new 120/70 BT45
I just installed with tire irons! I do a lot of long rides and every chance to coast to a stop
coast to shake off the fatigue on my arms. So far so good with no wobble!

i get the wobble too, but my tires are veeery worn. I'm about to try some brand new sport demons this week. I'll see if it still wobbles after the new tires.

I replaced the IRC with BT45. The IRC looked good to the naked eye, and felt smooth to the hand, but maybe just a hair out of round??

thanks for the feedback, Greg.

I changed out a worn rear tire a few weeks ago and that did not cure the problem. Hopefully when I get around to changing the front tire, too, the problem will disappear like yours has. Congrats.... it must be nice to ride w/o having to worry about the wobble cropping up at an inopportune moment.

which front tire did you install?

Thanks Kelly. BT45, to match the BT45 on the rear. Definitely feels good to not have that wobble.

Use sensitive static balancer instead of stock axle to balance front tire!
Saw your DYI tire change and maybe it will help!
Also check out of round and wobble if you have a magnetic base to use
a dial indicator.
Seems you already thought of everything and just a few more ideas if you haven't already tried it!
Good luck!
So far I haven't had this problem and with stock tires, or the new 120/70 BT45
I just installed with tire irons! I do a lot of long rides and every chance to coast to a stop
coast to shake off the fatigue on my arms. So far so good with no wobble!

Thanks for the ideas, Leo. If the problem ends up being an unbalanced front wheel, you can be sure I'll be ordering a static balancer. At this point, I really feel it's the tire, though, and will explore that when I get around to changing the front... er, soon. :o

Tested my 08 this morning.... Solid from 90 down to 40. I'll test the 09 SE on my next ride.

Somewhere along the line, you mentioned that you had your tires set to the usual 30 psi front and rear. I think the bike requires different pressures than that. I use the K shop manual; the pressure in the front tire is several psi lower than the rear, as I recall.

You might want to check your numbers against your manual.

Once I set my tire pressures correctly on my new 2009, all of my handling peculiarities went away.

there are no "correct" numbers to set the pressures to. what the manufacture states are recommended pressures as a general guide.

you'll find your pressure needs will vary according to a multitude of factors.

welcome to ninjette.
:)

Your answer reminds me of a recent purchase I made for my 2005 STi. I left the shop after buying a full set of summer tires for my sooby (which is an annual thing, given the voracious appetite that it has for soft tires) and found that the Discount Tire people had set them to "30 psi all around".

Of course, the car understeered like a pig until I adjusted them back to the 6 pound differential that the shop manual sets forth; sooby needs more in the front than the rear.

I know I can set the tires to presssures higher and lower than "recommended", but I always try to keep that differential pressure in mind.

I did the same with my 2009 Ninja; it came to me with "30 all around" and was very sluggish handling, requiring a great deal more handlebar pressure for banking than I thought it should.

Once I restored the 3 psi difference, everything perked up and she handles like she should. I guess K knows more about the fore-and-aft center of balance of my bike than I do.

Your mileage may differ.

Just a quick question for you, though. Are both tires on your bike the same in carcass construction? That is, are they the same manufacturer? Both radials or bias-ply?

Just a thought.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Both tires are Bridgestone BT-090 tires, mounted brand new at the same time.

Like you, I've played/experimented with tire pressures both on the bikes and cars that I have owned. I value handling above all else in a vehicle's strengths.

Thanks for your input, but in this case, I highly doubt a difference of a few psi would cause the wobble problem I am experiencing in the front tire. For the record, I do have the pressures at 28f/30r at the moment.

Your car tires last you an entire year?? I'm lucky to get 8k miles out of a set. :D

Hi Michael!

Welcome. Asking kkim if he is sure he checked his tire pressure is like asking Rossi if he remembered to put on his leathers before taking to the track. He's posted up treatises on the handling differences between 28 PSI and 29 PSI in the front tire. :) (BTW, the book does say 28F/32R for the stock tires on the new-gen ninjette)

Hi Michael!

Welcome. Asking kkim if he is sure he checked his tire pressure is like asking Rossi if he remembered to put on his leathers before taking to the track. He's posted up treatises on the handling differences between 28 PSI and 29 PSI in the front tire. :) (BTW, the book does say 28F/32R for the stock tires on the new-gen ninjette)

thanks... I think.:p

Hey... wait a minute... did you just call me anal?? :mad:

uh, umm, well, uh... :)

Yup. :rotflmao:

Well, I certainly mean no disrespect to KKim by commenting on the tire pressure thing. I actually was more focused on the fact that he was using the same pressure front and rear when K specifies a four psi differential ( I stand corrected on that, too; I was recalling from [faulty] memory the 3 psi difference which I first mentioned. I actually set mine to a four psi difference).

Too, that is an insignificant matter as well, since a properly-sorted ride may very well make good use of such settings as his.

I was thinking more of eliminating variables when trying to find a solution to this unhappy problem. As with working on a cranky PC or a car, default is the best place to start when trying to see what is causing a failure.

So when I troubleshoot, I try to find a stable starting point, introducing one new variable at a time. It's a PITA, but it works.

In fact, the pressure difference issue may be more important than first thought: KKim himself mentions that the wobble diminishes significantly when the bike has a load cantilevered out over the rear of the bike (I think he mentioned a rear-mounted luggage bag of 10 pounds).

That affects front-rear balance...and pressure differentials in the tires address the same thing.

In any case, I offer my suggestions only as a help, not as an affront...so hopefully, this will put matters aright.

KKim himself mentions that the wobble diminishes significantly when the bike has a load cantilevered out over the rear of the bike (I think he mentioned a rear-mounted luggage bag of 10 pounds).


If this is fact then can caused by the geometry change to the front!
Kelly you did move the forks up to lower the front or when you intalled your clipons? Put it back to stock height and see if the wobble goes away!

Michael,

I appreciate your input and value what anyone has to contribute from their points of view... it's how we all grow as a group... sharing different experiences we encounter as individuals. No offense taken from this side of the room. :) The wobble remains with or with out the bag loaded in the rear, adjusting tire pressures front and back, raising and lower the forks... almost everything I've been able to think of. (unfortunately just not the correct one)

The next step is changing out the front tire to see if that new tire I installed was the problem. I have the replacement ready and when I get off my lazy ass, I'll give that a shot. :asshat:

Mahalo for all of your suggestions and feedback. This one really has me stumped. :idunno:

Is the front wheel balanced / fork legs evenly adjusted? The former is likely a given, the latter makes me wonder if one fork leg is either sagging / dampening unevenly to the other.

I did my own front wheel balancing, using a method that has always worked for me in the past... on 600cc bikes that I rode at much higher speeds than I ever approach with the 250R, but it could be that it's unbalanced. I exhibit none of the other characteristics of an unbalanced wheel, though. No shaking or vibration from the front wheel at other than the decel situation from ~ 50-40mph.

The fork tubes both protrude above the triple clamp the same amounts.

Hi all-

Newbie poster here; I read this entire thread(!!!) this week. kkim, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've been living with this wobble condition since April of 2009! That's a long time.

sofo has the correct approach to this problem. There's a few(or maybe just one) item/s to check.

The matching distance of the fork tubes above the triple is no guarantee of alignment. Get the bike up on the center stand and remove the front axle- do you have to fight to get the axle in and out, or does it move freely?

It's super quick- check that front axle fit. The axle needs to be square to the fork sliders- if it isn't, something(fork tube, upper/lower triple issue) is out of alignment.

I have seen fork tube length tolerances vary by several millimeters on some very expensive import bikes. It all starts with some guy at a band saw, chopping up steel tubes. What's a +/- of a few millimeters to the machinist down the line? ;-)

If I've read your account accurately, the bike was fine before the tire change, and is bad now. All you had a mechanic do is remove the old tire and mount the new one, as I understand it.

Assuming the tire was truly a new tire, I've never seen an intermittent wobble caused by a tire- unless, I suppose, the bead isn't fully set all the way around- !!! And an error in balancing would be sensed at most speeds.

So what else changed? Brake caliper was removed/refit, and the axle was removed/refit.

Do yourself a favor- check that front axle fit. Addressing the wobble may save your hide someday.

If it was a fork oil/spring/steering head bearing issue, that would have existed before the tire change. New tires shouldn't make the bike less rideable ;-)

I know there are online tutorials, specific to the ex250, that can walk you through the process of "relaxing" the front end by loosening and tightening the upper and lower triples.

Looking forward to hearing the results of the experiment- jl

thanks, John. I'll check the forks for any axle binding.

welcome to ninjette.

:)

Results Kelly?

Sorry, I haven't been working on the ninja... been spending a lot of time on the dual sport lately. :o

ALL,

My love is my first owned bike. She had her second "warrranty" service aprox. 4 weeks ago ($146-the service included oil/filter change to full synthetic, electrical inspection, tire inspection, fluid inspection/top off, general operational inspection). Since then, I noticed so far, three strange things. She has about 2000 miles on her and is a couple months shy of a year old.

1) I can FEEL the road through/with the tires (I can practically feel the grooves). The sound of the tires on the road is also more pronounced; I can hear it through my helmet & earbuds. It didn't seem so "loud" before. She FEELS MORE flickable (it actually scared me on accidental discovery, I repositioned my legs-ever so slightly- where I hug her and she flicked. I never noticed this sensitivity before; I had to actually intend & motion to lean or turn with the use of my legs. Is this what sticky is?

2) My tire pressure is now set at 32 psi Front & Rear. Yes, I'm aware of the manual recommendations and the max cold psi of 36 stated on the IRC tires. Maybe this is the cause of number 1? Does it matter that it is HOT/humid out here year round? In some people's opinions, we have poor roads (lots of potholes, roads/streets are either coral or asphalt, always construction & as with some other places inattentive drivers). I intend to drop the psi's by next week to see if there is a change.

3) I think, after acute observation for a couple weeks now, that I am experiencing a slight wobbling but more pronounced at over 40mph. Maybe the numbers 1 & 2 are the reason I'm feeling number 3? I do not remember this wobbling prior to the service.

I intend to observe her for another week and if the wobbling persists, I will take her back to the shop where they will charge me another limb.

Apologies if this does not belong here exactly...but I can attest to the slight wobbling. Thanks.

Last week I was riding the ninjette and remembered this thread so I let go the bar at around 60mph to 35mph or so...abs no shake at all.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mine used to do this too.

I have since replaced the stock tires with Pirelli Sport Demons, put thicker oil (20 wt) in the shocks and set the oil height to 160mm instead of 205mm, replaced the springs with Race Tech springs at .70kg and aligned my forks by compressing the forks all the way before tightening the clamps.

Now it doesn't do it any more.

I'm thinking that realigning the forks with the caps off so you can compress them all the way, without the front wheel but with the axle in the forks, should do the trick. My fork tubes were also set 13mm above the top of the triple clamps.

Hope this helps

Mine always goes away when I change the front tire even when it doesn't appear significantly worn and returns before too long after changing to it (on my third front; two were take-offs; all were GT501).

I forgot to mention that when my front tire was balanced, the tech put on a stick on weight instead of the type that clips on the side of the rim. Maybe all that is needed is to have the front tire rebalanced to kill the wobble.

I've had the problem since the get go, it's annoying for sure, but I trust my bike none the less.

If you do a search, you'll see a very long thread on front end wobbles. I wasn't sure whether to revive it or just start a new one, so I hope it's okay to start a new one since I'm just curious if anyone has recently experienced this particular situation:

I haven't had any front end wobble of any kind since I had my 09. I bought it new and it is 100% stock. I'm at 1900 miles and yesterday I experienced the wobble for the first time ever. I will check my tire pressure as that might be the simplest explanation, but I do check it fairly regularly, but not every day.

The symptoms I think are the typical of the 2008+ wobble, if there is such a thing. I decelerate with the handlebars free, it shakes at around 50 MPH. It is not enough to cause too much alarm. I can comfortably leave it that way and I don't feel like I'm losing stability.

I was very surprised when it happened because I specifically tested it when I was reading the older wobble thread and there was no wobble. Any thoughts?

It goes away every time I change my tires and comes back for the last third of their usable lifetime.

Thanks. That certainly makes sense! Although I'm surprised that 1900 miles worth makes that much of a difference. I am in Florida and there aren't too many turns though :p

That is one of the only things I could think of that have actually changed. The slight wear in tire tread that is...

I've noticed it happening on my '09 with IRC tires with 4059 miles.

No need to revisit it. Same problem / same thread. :) :thumbup:

/merged

My front end wobbles also. Always has, even when it was brand new. I wonder if it has something to do with the weight of the bike.?.? Mostly the front end weight.

I have noticed that when I installed my WoodCraft clp on's, it got a tad worse. It's not bad like, "OMG!! I'm gonna die" when i'm riding. Goes away the sec I put my hands back on the bars. Shakes happens for me between 40-60mph. I haven't tested it at a faster rate of speed though.

My front end wobbles also. Always has, even when it was brand new. I wonder if it has something to do with the weight of the bike.?.? Mostly the front end weight.

I have noticed that when I installed my WoodCraft clp on's, it got a tad worse. It's not bad like, "OMG!! I'm gonna die" when i'm riding. Goes away the sec I put my hands back on the bars. Shakes happens for me between 40-60mph. I haven't tested it at a faster rate of speed though.

Change your tire. It has probably been said in this thread repeatedly but that is because that is more times than not the problem.

People buy steering dampers because they have handling problems, all that does is mask the issue, the problem still exists.

No it is not normal for this bike to wobble, wiggle, shake or shimmy. Not due to design or weight. If it is, it's a remediable situation.

Even tires that look like they have plenty of life left in them can cause severe handling problems.

Change your tire. It has probably been said in this thread repeatedly but that is because that is more times than not the problem.

People buy steering dampers because they have handling problems, all that does is mask the issue, the problem still exists.

No it is not normal for this bike to wobble, wiggle, shake or shimmy. Not due to design or weight. If it is, it's a remediable situation.

Even tires that look like they have plenty of life left in them can cause severe handling problems.

I do have the OEM front tire on still. It does need to be replaced, it's all cracked up. :cool:

No it is not normal for this bike to wobble, wiggle, shake or shimmy. Not due to design or weight. If it is, it's a remediable situation.


I agree with your point that adding a damper to deal with this is overkill and unnecessary, but your statement that this is a remediable situation in all cases is not supported by the experience of many. There is bike after bike after bike that has this behavior, and tracking down the primary cause in such a way that the problem is eliminated for good is often unsuccessful. Either individually, through a dealer, or through kawi themselves. Bar wobble on decel is a common trait on a number of bikes, including ours (and Gold Wings, and quite a few others).

On a bike that wasn't doing it that starts to do it as a tire wears, new tires do seem to often make the difference.

I too have fairly bad head shakes, usually between 70kms/hr to 45km's hour. (Not sure in miles).

Recently had it in at the dealer for service and I mentioned it to them. The mechanic said that it's super common on 250r's to get it. They checked steering head bearing and front and rear wheel balance and alignment and found no anomalies.

Both myself and my brother have 2010 250r's, mine with 12K km's and his with 4K and both bikes do it, both completely stock (Short farkles).

The only thing that was mentioned was slightly uneven wear on my front tyre (Very marginally squared due to commuting), which could encourage the issue.

Kelly, did you ever resolve your wobble/shake? My '08 surprised me by all of a sudden doing it when it hadn't before, but I think I figured out why.

My situation: I was coming off a freeway ramp and coasting to a red light. I reached up with my left hand to open my visor but it was kinda stuck, so I reached up with my right hand, too. The instant I let go of the right handlebar I got an alarming headshake. It stopped immediately when I grabbed the bars again, although of course I was decelerating the whole time and by then I was only going maybe 20mph or so.

I hadn't ever noticed this behavior before, and I've ridden the Ninjette off the same ramp many times before. What was different is that I had a pile of gear on the back, and I had sat up and leaned back to try to get my visor open.

I'm about 5'10" and probably weigh like 165-170 with Aerostich, helmet, and boots. Compared to the bike, I'm a large dynamic load. Given the added weight on the back that day, when I shifted my own weight and added even more to the back, the front was too light and got headshake. I verified my theory by riding down the same ramp and letting go at the same speed but keeping myself leaning forward (hard on the abs and lower back at my age!). No headshake. Same thing again, but butt shifted to the very back of the seat and me leaning back: headshake. It felt exactly like my CBR600 coming over the top of turn 9 at Thunderhill, where the suspension unloads and the front tire often isn't touching pavement for a moment. A steering damper would likely resolve it, but I'll probably just be more aware of my weight distribution on the 250 from now on.

Craig,

no, I haven't resolved the wobbling. I still haven't changed the front tire yet, either... yeah, I know, I've been a baaaad boy. :o

my wobbles will occur if I have something loaded on the rear or not. I have not tried redistributing my weight front to back, so that's something I will need to try. Thanks for the idea.

What intrigues me about this wobbling problem is the fact that some have it and some don't. makes you kinda go.... hmmmmm. :suspicious:

What intrigues me about this wobbling problem is the fact that some have it and some don't. makes you kinda go.... hmmmmm. :suspicious:
Yeah, and it REALLY surprised me that I hadn't had it before and then suddenly I did! But I think I've satisfied myself that it's due to F/R dynamic weight distribution, at least in my own case. Plus the Ninjette can hold nearly 30 pounds of fuel, which adds another variable to the mix.

mine did the 45 mph decel wobble on the way home from dealer-the old honda 600's did it also-just a trait of some bikes-my bandit did it also-as long as it doesn't do it under accel your ok-my gsxr does it accelerating but the front wheel isn't on the ground

Mine's done it from day one, both on the old IRCs and my new BT-016s.

doesn't really bother me

Has anyone noticed if the difference is in the type of weights and balancing machine/technique being used. I had the same wobble @ 45 mph, I noticed a difference with new tires and stick on weights. The stick on weights are mounted closer to the outside of the rim as the stock clip on weights are in the center of the rim. Auto tires also are balanced inside and out if necessary. This wobble at 40-50 mph is a phenomenon among other bike as well as cars. I believe it has to do with gyroscopic wheel stability.
This is an article that sheds a little lite on what we are feeling. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/space/www/gyrover/gyrover.html

Wow, this thread is over 2 years old. Get this problem fixed KKim so we don't have to hear your old man whining anymore and so you can post another beautiful DIY !:D:thumbup::cool:

I didn't read through this entire thread but I've heard things to check are tire pressure, alignment, wheel balance, spokes (does not apply here), and bearings. I've also heard that it can be caused by a rear tire that is worn or "squared". Best of luck.

I know this is olddd, and im on an 07, but I had similar problems from day 1... I did everything I could think of over the years and finally gave in and threw a gixxer stabalizer on it with a fork mount I machined up.. I don't know if the 08+'s have the room but its something to look into.. It is like a bandaid for the actual problem, but I found many handling benifets other then just the shake not being there anymore.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/p8230025.jpg/

Well, once again, changing tires cures the decel wobble for me. *shrug*

Mine would at speed as soon as the pressure on the bars went to light-none.
Knowing this from using choke for cruise control at 30mph and removing hands (hovering over bars) to check for wobble.. Sometimes it would go 1m without even a bit of shake.. Other times it would start its shake as I let off and try going into a slapper.
I can run no handed and go from line to line (leaning to stear) hard and it wont half the time.. Its completely random and I nor' anyone else has ever figured it out.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is absolutely not normal for a NInja 250 to have constant headshake. Sure, at certain speeds under specific cirucmstances and road conditions it's possible, but if you get it all the time, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. A steering stabilizer only masks the problem - it doesn't fix it. Just like shimming the needles.

Wow... that's interesting. I'd be very interested to hear from others if this is a common occurrence with our bikes. I wouldn't think so... you may have the same problem I have, whatever it ends up being. :)

i had a pre gen that would wobble like that but my 2011 i can ride all day without hands, so definately could be the alignment of something

mine went away with bt-003rs ,but i did racetech front and rear shock at same time-so i don"t know what was difference-but is dead stable at every speed now

thanks for that feedback, Reese.

mine was doing the same thing untill i recently installed a new tire(by my self so i know its done right) it is usually caused from slight "cupping" on the tire tread due to hard front braking, and unbalanced tirescan also cause wobbling. it is much more noticable on our bikes because of the light weight and when we let off on the throttle the front end nosedives a little transfering more weight to the front end.

OK - another data point. I will not go so far as say the problem has been completely solved, but here goes. I just put on a brand-new set of Pirelli Sport Demons, replacing a very worn pair. The front was completely toast, with a V profile and nothing left on either side in terms of tread, though there was still a little left right in the middle. The rear was a little different, a bit flatspotted in the center, but still worn on the sides as well. The bike would have the decel wobble at almost any speed. Whether it was 60 mph or 30 mph, if I released pressure on the bar, it would start to wobble at an ever increasing amplitude until I grabbed the bar again. It was actually pretty bad toward the end.

I put on the new tires yesterday, the exact same model on both ends. But on today's ride, there was *zero* wobble. It didn't happen decelerating through 45 mph. It didn't happen at any other speed. I took my hands off the bars and coasted down a very large hill nearby, from 60 mph all the way down to just a few mph, and it was stable the whole way down. I'm a happy camper, and will be looking out for when it starts to reappear again on this set of tires. :thumbup: