I've been riding for about 2 months now, and was wondering what kind of advice you have for a newb that want to try out canyon riding. What kinds of things did you notice that the 250 liked to do? Are there any things that I have to be on the look out for when I ride? When are the best times to go?

Those are the questions that have been floating around in my mind. If you have any other tips that are relevant, please post!

Thanks ;D

In for some tips as well....

The biggest tip I can give, and that's coming from someone who lives in the mountains and only has the twisties to ride on if I want to stay out of traffic - is to wait until you are absolutely comfortable, ride your own ride, and keep your cool. It can be intimidating when you look over and see the sheer drop off the side...
I would also advise waiting a few more months until you know there won't be any snow/ice/sand/gravel left over from winter weather. Riding the roads a few times in your car beforehand so that you are familiar with the curves and any potential trouble spots will also make it a much safer experience for you.

Again, this is all coming from an inexperienced rider as well, but I do have over 20 years of seat time with my dad - I just wasn't in control - then again, he's the only one who can be when you're with him ;)

Ride your own ride. Stay within your comfort.

Also see if someone in the area wants to go with you. I know I feel more comfortable with someone else with me when I am doing something new like that.

Aloh, ARc...I will give you plenty of tips :) First and foremost, please read this excerpt from a previous thread with some other members who had questions about riding the canyons:

OLD POST:

I havent been on a canyon yet...but I cant wait till I grow the bawls to try it. I love going on canyon runs in my car, so it should be a blast on the ninja!
It's not about growing the balls If you're maintaining a safe speed, then the canyons are definitely a great time... especially in a group (not to mention the awesome scenic backgrop...but keep those eyes on the road!).

Canyons are the best. That's the only place I take my bike. First time I went I was going sooo slowww.
They're great but dangerous...very dangerous. I had a friend of mine on a 250 follow me up ACH on one of our Sunday morning outings last summer. Long story short, he was behind me, and then I looked back and he wasn't. He target fixated on a snow level gauge and crashed...bad enough that he is paralyzed from the waist down. A horrible way to remind myself how unforgiving these mountain roads are. Look through those turns!

Consider taking your bike to the track...expand your options You won't look back.

Always ride within your limits and don't cross the double yellows unless you have to.
NEVER CROSS THE DOUBLE YELLOWS. Especially in the canyons. So many riders are taking a MASSIVE chance by crossing the double yellow on blind turns or worse yet, cars crossing the double yellow on a blind turn.

If you're "riding within your limits" you'll keep your judgment and lines sharp and consistent (ie. never crossing the double yellow). There is no room for erratic riding on the canyons.

Oh yeah, don't ride alone. If you go over a cliff no one will know your there.That's not a very good impression to give riders of the canyons (especially those who haven't gone yet).

Fear doesn't nuture confidence.

If you go with an experienced rider that knows the mountain you are going to ride, things should go just fine. The unexpected can never be avoided (gravel, cars, bicyclists..etc) but going with a level head at the base of the canyon is what will prepare you for anything up ahead.

------------------------------

NEW POST:

1) Ride with someone who rides canyons on a regular basis. Better yet, ride with someone who has ridden the canyon you want to ride on a regular basis. There is nothing better than following someone that knows the route.

2) Common sense. Basics such as riding within your limits, don't show off, keep your riding fundamentals sharp, etc.

3) Misconceptions. Many people think all canyons are mangled, twisted roads of doom that are 5 feet wide. In actuality, they are beautiful scenic routes that happen to be abundant here in SoCal. Spoiled we are :) However, all canyons are not created equal. Some are damn near terrifying (especially near the Malibu coast). Again, #3 stresses #2.

I'll ride with you and Aloh sometime if you're up for it.

- Chris

way to go, Chris! :thumbup:

Chris, NC has a diff geography but you've given some sound advice I'm sure will be useful for twistie mountain roads... Thanks!! :D

Chris, NC has a diff geography but you've given some sound advice I'm sure will be useful for twistie mountain roads... Thanks!! :D

I'm sure there are infinite amount of tips, but I only share from my personal experience :) Glad you took away something from what I said.

After reading the first sentence, I figured there would be a holocaust in here. At two months, I wouldn't have considered riding in such places. But if you must, there's some good advice up there in this thread. As someone who just started riding in the mountains here, I'll add a little of my own.

1. If you ride behind someone else, don't try to keep up. Go at your own pace and stay in your comfort zone.

2. Get used to banked curves, and don't mistake the bank of the curb for your own lean angle. If the roads are anything like they are here, then they will bank pretty steep. It feels like you're leaning in before you even start to.

3. Don't forget to look through the turn. I'm sure you've heard it before... those who focus on the scenery become part of it :D

4. Don't worry about trying to lean your bike to the pegs or drag knees. Just lean as far as necessary to hold your line.

5. After a dozen or so turns, you'll start to develop confidence and pick the pace up. That's when those "Oops, almost died" moments come. Try not to get overconfident.

6. Leave a wide safety margin in your lines. Clipping the edge of the pavement on the inside of a turn is an ouch.

And I'm going to repeat a couple things I saw in the above posts because they are so important...

7. Don't lane cross!! Also, be aware that if your tires are 2 feet inside the lines, then your head is in the other lane. Stay plenty inside to allow room for you to lean safely in your own lane.

8. Make several runs in a car first. Watch out for possible trouble spots.

We have some good roads here in TN, but I'm a little jealous of your canyons. I had a friend come back from a California trip the other day and he told me the canyons out there put our roads to shame. Have fun and ride safe!

Thanks Beast and Knox and Noche! I learned A LOT from your posts. People on ocmoto.com told me that I should wait a few more months as well before hitting the canyons, as well as waiting until I have a full set of protective gear (right now I'm missing riding pants).

I know what you guys mean about holding your lines and not crossing the double yellows. I was going in circles at a parking structure @ USC, and found that sometimes I ran a little wide when going through these turns. I think it may have been too much entry speed, because I was going at 15-20 mph through 90 degree turns? I wandered a little further away from campus and found the University Parking Structure, which is a monolith of a building. On the roof, there were NO cars, and it was almost like a track! I'm going to be playing on the rooftop to practice looking through the turns, picking my butt off the seat while leaning to save lean angle on the bike (and my chicken strips), entry speed control, throttle control, and getting comfortable leaning. I get scared when my body is so close to the street.

I realize that track days are probably the most beneficial for me, however, I am currently unemployed (No $$) and am on a dance team that performs most weekends (No Time). I will, however, go do a Track Dayz with a local private teacher as soon as I'm able to.

Jeff,

I really think the track is the best place for a rider of your experience level to quickly, safely learn the dynamics and concentration it takes to ride a bike smooth and fast on a curvy road. There are so many dangers involved in addition to the road when riding a public highway. That you don't have proper riding pants should be a sign that you 're are nor fully prepared to go down if that happens.

Forgive me, Chris, for bringing this up, but Jeff, have you ever read this thread? http://www.kawiforums.com/showthread.php?t=112948 It brings into focus what can happen in a blink of an eye on a ride such as any on a twisty road.

I'm not trying to scare you from canyon riding, just trying to put things in the proper perspective so you can make an informed decision.

way to go, Chris!
Whoops, forgot to insert a :cheer2: hehe

On the roof, there were NO cars, and it was almost like a track!
Jeff, can I join you sometime? I can give you a lot of pointers. It'll be like a private session up there. Sounds fun :) Hard to find an open space around here. I'm off work for two weeks (took a hiatus) and I have some free time. Let me know

picking my butt off the seat while leaning to save lean angle on the bike (and my chicken strips)
Don't worry about "chicken strips". They are just a lame "coolness" requirement. Worry about riding before you worry about the aesthetics of your rubber.

I realize that track days are probably the most beneficial for me, however, I am currently unemployed (No $$)
You can learn how to ride well (and safely) outside a track. Tracks are controlled environments that allow you to focus on riding. Unless you're ONLY riding the track, street riding confidence is essential...which means, get out there and ride ;)

and am on a dance team that performs most weekends (No Time)
Which dance team?

No worries Kelly, reality is the best lesson sometimes, even if a harsh one.

Thanks, Chris, for stepping up. We need more like you to help others when they need it. :thumbup:

have fun guys, but keep it safe... the top of a parking garage?? :eek:

Thanks, Chris, for stepping up. We need more like you to help others when they need it. :thumbup:

have fun guys, but keep it safe... the top of a parking garage?? :eek:

If it's local, I say, why not? :)

Haha, the parking garage situation sounds interesting. There's only one way to find out if it's a suitable location ;) If all goes according to plan, the evening will end up looking something like this :eyebrows:

http://homepage.mac.com/merussell/iblog/B835531044/C969231614/E20060616163900/Media/tokyodrift.jpg

I will say something else... There is no time limit into which someone can and cannot tell you what to do on your bike.

I had Tyke for six months but hadn't been riding much (I think I might have had 200 or so miles under my belt, most of that parking lot, getting to said lot, and riding to and from one of the local strip malls) before I hit up Highway Nine in nor cal. I did it because I felt comfortable on my bike and with my skills. It was one of the first mountain roads I learned to ride on. Not saying this is the best but...

Only YOU can judge when YOU are ready.

The one thing I can suggest and cant stress enough is ride at your own pace, dont try to be macho and keep up with someone, even if you know the road well. Canyons in my area have a lot of blind curves unfriendly radius types that can be tricky, pardon my french but ride like a pussy, other guys out there have been in the same shoes and wont call you out for it.

top of a parking garage?? :eek:

Hehehehe I went to the one at my work (3 miles away from my apt.) the other day and practiced a couple hours until midnight. It was a weekend, the place was empty and the security guard never came by even though I was getting pointers from a guy friend... dunno but that could've looked "bad" :lol:

It was a peaceful, deserted and mostly distraction-free environment. I'm definitely going back... ;)

I've been riding for about 2 months now, and was wondering what kind of advice you have for a newb that want to try out canyon riding. What kinds of things did you notice that the 250 liked to do? Are there any things that I have to be on the look out for when I ride? When are the best times to go?

Those are the questions that have been floating around in my mind. If you have any other tips that are relevant, please post!

Thanks ;D

In for some tips as well....

Come ride GMR with me. :D

1) Ride with someone who rides canyons on a regular basis. Better yet, ride with someone who has ridden the canyon you want to ride on a regular basis. There is nothing better than following someone that knows the route.


In other words...

Come ride GMR with me. :D

In other words...

Come ride GMR with me. :D

Loud and clear ;) Let's do it. I'm off work for the next week and a half so let's pick a day.

Sometime next week hopefully, Chris! I've been abstaining from riding the last 2 weeks to save my tires for buttonwillow this sunday. I've been at GMR ALOT this year so far. I know the whole 8 mile road by memory basically by now.

The downside... I've put a lot of wear in my tires and I'm gonna need a new front at least before SOW in April. FACK!!!



To echo what anyone else has said about canyon riding.

DO NOT RIDE FASTER THAN WHAT IS COMFORTABLE FOR YOU. My first time riding GMR, I was getting outpaced by dude's on bicycles!! That's how uncomfortable I was. Now I ride relatively fast with total comfort from knowing I can go faster if I wanted and knowing the road well helps a ton. When I start having moments where my heart skips or speeds up, that's when I know I need to back off because I'm not comfortable anymore. No matter if I ride slow or fast, I do so comfortably. Light on the bars, muscles loose. Some days I can ride faster or slower at the same comfort level depending on my mood, road conditions, weather, etc.


When you start death gripping the bars and tensing up everywhere, you're going too fast for yourself and need to back off before something happens.


Over this year of riding, I've realized (street and track) the more I ride the same road, the more comfortable I get and speed is a byproduct of becoming more and more comfortable. I don't TRY to ride faster. I just try to ride comfortably and ride well. Over time, speed comes naturally. The goal is to ride WELL. Trying to ride fast can and probably will get you hurt.

I've already had my experience of crashing up in the mountains from riding faster than I should have been for my comfort. It wasn't the tires. It wasn't my friends I was riding with. It was just me. Luckily I wasn't hurt. Now I know better.


Riding is all about confidence and comfort. If you don't got confidence, you don't got nothin! At least, this is my own philosophy that I've found.


disclaimer: Do not confuse confidence with overinflated ego.

I've been abstaining from riding the last 2 weeks to save my tires for buttonwillow this sunday
I vote Front = old BT45, Back = existing BT090 :D or maybe you could do a 140 front and 140 rear. So many possibilities!

It's okay, let me know when, doesn't have to be soon.

I've already had my experience of crashing up in the mountains from riding faster than I should have been for my comfort. It wasn't the tires. It wasn't my friends I was riding with. It was just me. Luckily I wasn't hurt. Now I know better.

When was this???

I vote Front = old BT45, Back = existing BT090 :D or maybe you could do a 140 front and 140 rear. So many possibilities!

It's okay, let me know when, doesn't have to be soon.


When was this???

My old bt45 is gone. That thing was toast! Jonathan says he still has his stock front and it's good so I'm gonna ask him about that.




I crashed at ACH back in June'ish, I think it was? I forget exactly. It was a left hander. Just came in too hot. Ran wide, lowsided. Stupid mistake. I learned alot.

That's the reason I went through that bike repair phase last year.

:eek::eek:

I came across this video randomly about 10 minutes ago. If you want to see a one-way ticket to the morgue, check this out.

There are so many things wrong in this video, but here are just a few:

1) Treating the road like like it's a one way street. Using the lane in the opposite direction as a passing lane on curves and blind turns!
2) Terrible lines (swerving, correcting within corrections)
3) Braking in the turns. At some points you can see the lead rider's tail kick out a bit
4) T-shirts
5) Body positioning? Where?
6) HIGH rate of speed....sorry, ABSURD rate of speed. 120+????

etc.......

*NOTE: Nothing graphic in this video, it's just a perfect example of a total disregard for safety

Enjoy :mad:

tVdYXx4SdZc

...and that's why some people should not ride motorcycles. idiots!!! :rant:

...and that's why some people should not ride motorcycles. idiots!!! :rant:

This is probably the worst video I've ever seen that covers basically ALL the "NEVERS" for this thread.

I'd like to know what camera they are using. I wish my sound would come out decent. I will probably be posting a lot of riding videos on here in the future. If anyone spots ridiculous errors like that in my riding, I would appreciate it if they'd PM me and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Heh, that one guy pretty much drags his ass around the corners. It looks like he's trying to throw all his weight onto the back tire. Durf.

Hey Jimi, when you ride, your butt hangs off to one side. It's the left side. Work on body positioning in a straight line. You are welcome. ;)

I might be a newbie, but I can tell the guy's a terrible rider!! Some corners it looked like he was going to sit down in the asphalt since his behind was almost touching the ground...

Chris, thanks for posting this vid, now I'm able to reference the moves that like you said, would be a one-way ticket to the morgue. :rip:

Heh, that one guy pretty much drags his ass around the corners. It looks like he's trying to throw all his weight onto the back tire. Durf.

Using your body when turning is good so I wouldn't fault him on that alone.

This guy still sucks though for a number of reasons already started..

hes hanging off the bike wrong from what I can tell, his butt is hanging off but his head stays dead center, I thought that was crossing up? Arnt you suppost to hang your upper body off as well? Not sure since Im a noob ;)

The guy shown in the video is a knob. As is the one with the cam on board. But there are all sorts of ways to get your body weight inside of the bike, and while there may be a commonly suggested "correct" way, even the fastest riders in the world use a variety of different techniques. Troy Bayliss (multi-time WSBK champ) rides crossed up, Neil Hodgson (WSBK champ) rides crossed up, and probably the biggest example of all time is Mick Doohan, multi-time GP500 champion:

Cool I see the point being crossed up as in the pic, but that dude is almost laying flat on the ground and the ones in video no where near draggin that low. I just been trying the basics, I dont think Im near graggin knee yet..

hes hanging off the bike wrong from what I can tell, his butt is hanging off but his head stays dead center, I thought that was crossing up? Arnt you suppost to hang your upper body off as well? Not sure since Im a noob ;)

"proper" riding form is very subjective and will differ greatly from rider to rider even with the top professional riders.

I'd like to know what camera they are using. I wish my sound would come out decent.
Funny that's the first thing you noticed :) I've had great results from my ultra cheap Nikon point and shoot. The key is the get it out of the wind and keep it stable.

Industrial strength velcro (Home Depot/Lowes) and some good tape.
http://thebeastisback.com/ninja250/cam4.jpg
http://thebeastisback.com/ninja250/cam7.jpg
http://thebeastisback.com/ninja250/cam9.jpg

Results
Vimeo Link (Angeles Crest Highway 6/15/08)
http://vimeo.com/1179866

I just got back from Griffith Park, because a friend of mine said it was pretty fun. It was fun, but there are a lot of slow cars and stop signs. Here's a funny story.

I almost lowsided trying to go through a 15 mph turn @ 30mph. I had JUST gone through a curve, and was distracted by the view of the park when I saw a bunch of stones coming up at me. I tried leaning HARD , but wasn't going to make it, so straightened up and grabbed my brakes as smoothly as I could manage without jerking. The rear started skidding (first time it ever did), but luckily I wasn't going to fast so I stopped in time. The SUV that saw me almost crash gave me a funny look. I felt so lucky that this happened when I am still learning on my EX250 and not a CBR.

Good news is although the roads were pretty twisty in some sections, I didn't come close to going wide at any point and time. I think it may just be a matter of making sure the entry speed is correct, and that I be careful that I don't apex too early in the turn.

@Beast/Kuro: How do your weekdays look? I usually don't have class on Tuesdays or Thursdays. You guys up to ride ACH next week? Beast, I sent you another PM ;D

I just got back from Griffith Park, because a friend of mine said it was pretty fun. It was fun, but there are a lot of slow cars and stop signs. Here's a funny story.
Griffith Park doesn't count as a "canyon" or "mountain" ride. That's like counting Muholland's beginning stretch in Hollywood as a ride :) I didn't even know there were suitable roads there.

I almost lowsided trying to go through a 15 mph turn @ 30mph. I had JUST gone through a curve, and was distracted by the view of the park when I saw a bunch of stones coming up at me.

"(not to mention the awesome scenic backgrop...but keep those eyes on the road!)." <<<<<<---- What did I say about keeping your eyes on the road! Yeeesh Jeff. You really have to be careful in those situations. If you want to look, pull over. The road will always be waiting for you if you decide to stop and check out the scenery.

How do your weekdays look? I usually don't have class on Tuesdays or Thursdays.
I'll ride with you Tuesday. Let's do it! Kurosaki might be riding GMR Tuesday, but I'll ride ACH with you. Weekdays are easier going. Less cars, less bikers, etc.

Beast, I sent you another PM ;D
Didn't see one, you sure? :)

Hey Jimi, when you ride, your butt hangs off to one side. It's the left side. Work on body positioning in a straight line. You are welcome. ;)

I said PM! Not slam my riding in front of the whole forum :p I got my butt hanging off both sides now, dependent on which way I'm turning. So problem solved. It's kind of funny though... I noticed I was sitting slightly left today, and that's why I've been able to corner faster on left turns as opposed to right-handers. I've been riding like a Nascar driver. All smoothed out now though, and sliding off to the inside of the turn is becoming second nature. I need to have someone follow me with the GoPro so I can critique.

Beast, that's a pretty good setup you've rigged there. It gets the job done. My windscreens are both very tinted, so i couldn't get away with that on either bike.

// End threadjack.

I've been riding for about 2 months now, and was wondering what kind of advice you have for a newb that want to try out canyon riding. What kinds of things did you notice that the 250 liked to do? Are there any things that I have to be on the look out for when I ride? When are the best times to go?

Those are the questions that have been floating around in my mind. If you have any other tips that are relevant, please post!

Thanks ;D

You will NOT ride in the canyons! You are no where near ready. I am not sure why anyone would even remotely advocate riding in the canyons for someone at your level.

That is irresponsible at best.

First, learn how to ride on the street. Take the advanced MSF course and, after about a year and 8000 miles, you can consider doing a trackday after that. You will learn more in one trackday than years riding (including the canyons).

After fully mastering slow speed manuevers and a few trackdays, if you still feel the need to ride in the canyons, you are in a good position to judge the risk for yourself.

One of my buddies (who is on Pasadena Police Dept.'s motor units) crashed on his R1 in the canyons. He is extremely skilled. He broke a bunch of bones, punctured lung, the whole shebang. He doesn't ride in the canyons any longer.

Another online friend (mentioned above) was slightly more skilled than you and is now paralysed. This happened recently.

Do you have full leathers, boots, back protector, full health insurance, and life insurance?

You seem like a good person and I don't want to see you hurt.

Thank you, Purspeed, for displaying your concern. I just wanted to let you know that I'm learning as much as I can, riding within my limits, and under the supervision of my mentor (who has been riding for over 40 years).

I wasn't able to view your reply yesterday because I was up at 8AM helping my friend film a little video teaching beginners how to ride canyons. At OCmoto, there have been concerns raised about new riders crashing when going on newbie rides, and the video came up as one of the solutions to the problem. Yesterday we were at Live Oak Canyon Road near Cooks Corner, and I was told to go down the road blind, meaning without receiving prior instruction so they could record any mistakes that I, as a newb, would make, riding this type of road for the first time. I kept a pace that was comfortable for me, wasn't breaking the speed limit, and maneuvered like I would have normally. At the end of the session I was told that I was fired, because they couldn't they newb mistakes that they wanted. The two people following me (One a racer, the other his protege), said that they were impressed by my lines, throttle control, and how comfortable I looked on the bike. Granted, Live Oak Canyon might have been easy, but I think I can handle other canyons if I take it at my own pace.

I know that I have to look through the turns, and not use racing apex's while canyon riding. Survival lines are different from Racing lines in that you apex only after you can see going through the entire curve.

I do realize that I need a full set of gear. The only thing I'm lacking right now is a pair of pants / back protector. I had been planning to drive over to the D-Store in Costa Mesa today to pick up some leather riding pants, but was unable to get up on time today. But I will be going after classes tomorrow.

Jeff - I'd say you are no where ready to be canyon riding my friend. With only 2 months riding on a 03 ninja 250 you've got very little if none experience on the road.

I'd say wait maybe a year or two - might sound like a joy kill but on the canyon roads its pretty crazy. I've done a few canyon rides in my buddy's Mitsubishi Evo and I was driving it normally - I can't imagine doing it on a ninja 250 or even just 2 months after I started riding.

Its totally up to you man but I have seen a lot of people get hurt, maimed, amputated or killed when they have no experience or ideas on what they are doing.

I'd say gear is only part of the equation - you could have a crazy A*s full leather suit but if you don't have the experience you will crash.

Good luck and don't get confident. In my opinion (worth $0.02) I don't think you are ready but you are free to do whatever you want.

-M

Everyone has a different learning curve. Only the rider can tell when he/she is ready. I think Jeff is taking a very smart road by seeking out mentors and people to go up there with him.

Though track days are good ideas. I have yet to do one though so I can't really say from personal experience.

Jeff - I'd say you are no where ready to be canyon riding my friend. With only 2 months riding on a 03 ninja 250 you've got very little if none experience on the road.

I'd say wait maybe a year or two - might sound like a joy kill but on the canyon roads its pretty crazy. I've done a few canyon rides in my buddy's Mitsubishi Evo and I was driving it normally - I can't imagine doing it on a ninja 250 or even just 2 months after I started riding.

Its totally up to you man but I have seen a lot of people get hurt, maimed, amputated or killed when they have no experience or ideas on what they are doing.

I'd say gear is only part of the equation - you could have a crazy A*s full leather suit but if you don't have the experience you will crash.

Good luck and don't get confident. In my opinion (worth $0.02) I don't think you are ready but you are free to do whatever you want.

-M

+1

Pride always hurts. It never helps.

Be humle and know that you are not ready to tackle the canyons at this point, regardless of what your mentor thinks.

Like I wrote in my initial post, after being fully seasoned on the street and after a trackday weekend, if you feel the need to canyon ride, you will be in a better place to judge.

I do hope that you give my advice some consideration.

I think people make "the canyons" out to be much more different than "regular riding" than they really are. We're not talking about whether or not someone should tightrope across a soccer stadium 200 feet up without a net, we're not talking about someone wanting to do his first skydive solo without a reserve, and we're not talking about someone wanting to go sharkfishing by hand.

We're talking about someone who is considering riding on a public road, likely marked at 35 mph as many of the socal canyons are, that has some twists and turns on it, but can be no more dangerous than any other type of motorcycle riding. Is riding a motorcycle absolutely safe? Nope. But believing that maneuvering in and out of traffic on city streets, or cruising down the highway are somehow much safer than other types of riding is in my opinion not supportable. Jeff - if you keep your speed in check, work hard to not surprise yourself by a turn or any other item in the road, there's no reason why you can't safely ride on just about any public road you choose. You should be confident in steering, braking, and accelerating your motorcycle, but by no means do you have to be trackday ready, you just need to have the fundamentals down and the ability to make good decisions and not panic. Sure, if you go off the road in a location that has no guard rails and a 500 foot straight drop into a rocky ravine, it's probably going to leave a mark. But do you ride off the road often when you're not next to such a ravine? :D As always, keep aware of traffic around you, and if you do find that you are holding someone up behind you, don't stress, but politely find the next straight or other convenient place on the road to wave them by, they'll appreciate it and so will you.

I would rep Pharoah, Alex and Purspeed for their continued concern for my safety if I could. Alas, I can only offer an IOU for now. I will take your advice seriously and when I feel more ready for it, will let you know how it goes. Purspeed, I noticed you're from Los Angeles. Which area? Maybe I can ride with you after I get more experience / go on a track day ;D

I think people make "the canyons" out to be much more different than "regular riding" than they really are. We're not talking about whether or not someone should tightrope across a soccer stadium 200 feet up without a net, we're not talking about someone wanting to do his first skydive solo without a reserve, and we're not talking about someone wanting to go sharkfishing by hand.

We're talking about someone who is considering riding on a public road, likely marked at 35 mph as many of the socal canyons are, that has some twists and turns on it, but can be no more dangerous than any other type of motorcycle riding. Is riding a motorcycle absolutely safe? Nope. But believing that maneuvering in and out of traffic on city streets, or cruising down the highway are somehow much safer than other types of riding is in my opinion not supportable. Jeff - if you keep your speed in check, work hard to not surprise yourself by a turn or any other item in the road, there's no reason why you can't safely ride on just about any public road you choose. You should be confident in steering, braking, and accelerating your motorcycle, but by no means do you have to be trackday ready, you just need to have the fundamentals down and the ability to make good decisions and not panic. Sure, if you go off the road in a location that has no guard rails and a 500 foot straight drop into a rocky ravine, it's probably going to leave a mark. But do you ride off the road often when you're not next to such a ravine? :D As always, keep aware of traffic around you, and if you do find that you are holding someone up behind you, don't stress, but politely find the next straight or other convenient place on the road to wave them by, they'll appreciate it and so will you.

Yep...

A twisty road is not a criminal waiting to stab you in the back.

It is only what you make of it.

I would rep Pharoah, Alex and Purspeed for their continued concern for my safety if I could. Alas, I can only offer an IOU for now. I will take your advice seriously and when I feel more ready for it, will let you know how it goes. Purspeed, I noticed you're from Los Angeles. Which area? Maybe I can ride with you after I get more experience / go on a track day ;D

Sure thing. PM me and we'll take it from there.

I think people make "the canyons" out to be much more different than "regular riding" than they really are. We're not talking about whether or not someone should tightrope across a soccer stadium 200 feet up without a net, we're not talking about someone wanting to do his first skydive solo without a reserve, and we're not talking about someone wanting to go sharkfishing by hand.

We're talking about someone who is considering riding on a public road, likely marked at 35 mph as many of the socal canyons are, that has some twists and turns on it, but can be no more dangerous than any other type of motorcycle riding. Is riding a motorcycle absolutely safe? Nope. But believing that maneuvering in and out of traffic on city streets, or cruising down the highway are somehow much safer than other types of riding is in my opinion not supportable. Jeff - if you keep your speed in check, work hard to not surprise yourself by a turn or any other item in the road, there's no reason why you can't safely ride on just about any public road you choose. You should be confident in steering, braking, and accelerating your motorcycle, but by no means do you have to be trackday ready, you just need to have the fundamentals down and the ability to make good decisions and not panic. Sure, if you go off the road in a location that has no guard rails and a 500 foot straight drop into a rocky ravine, it's probably going to leave a mark. But do you ride off the road often when you're not next to such a ravine? :D As always, keep aware of traffic around you, and if you do find that you are holding someone up behind you, don't stress, but politely find the next straight or other convenient place on the road to wave them by, they'll appreciate it and so will you.

You are correct in most of what you wrote. Here is what my experience tells me: canyons, unlike roads, often contain far more road hazards (dirt, debris, animals, other riders in the wrong lane, etc.). Unfamiliar turns and roads are statistically far more risky than known local roads.

New riders, especially ones without understanding the fundamentals, tend to rate their riding skill much higher than it actually is. As a result, they get overly-confident and begin to push themselves harder. In a canyon environment, this can be a deadly combination.

The reality is that it is too easy to want to push a little harder into the next corner in the canyons.


Here is a quick test:

If you in an off-camber, decreasing radius turn and a truck is heading in the opposite direction (towards you) and heading in your lane, do you feel confident that a noob would handle this confidently?

How about a rear wheel slide? Will the noob keep on the gas or chop the throttle and highside?

Sorry Purspeed, not buying it. There's nothing magical about a canyon that makes riders turn into uncontrollable beasts pushing beyond their abilities until they fly off a cliff at warp speed. Of course it can happen, but it's always a choice of the carbon component at the controls.

Unfamiliar turns and roads are statistically far more risky than known local roads.

"Statistically far more risky" implies that you know of some statistics, and I'd be very interested in seeing any of them that you could share. All of the statistics I've ever seen do show that a common motorcycle accident is a rider who flubs a turn and runs wide, but nowhere in any of those statistics did I ever see where it asked the rider if they were familiar with that turn or that road before they biffed. People crash on the street in front of their house, and people crash halfway across the country. Familiarity is likely a good thing, but if people ride as if they have no control over their speed, even that familiarity can bite as people ramp up their entry speeds into a turn that they feel they know all too well.

Here is a quick test:

If you in an off-camber, decreasing radius turn and a truck is heading in the opposite direction (towards you) and heading in your lane, do you feel confident that a noob would handle this confidently?

How about a rear wheel slide? Will the noob keep on the gas or chop the throttle and highside?

What about this situation is uniquely relevant to the canyon environment? Do vehicles not drift over the yellow anywhere else? At what speed do you have to have a Ninja 250 up to before you can provoke a rear wheel slide? Does chopping the throttle on the 250 provide enough back-torque to the rear wheel to provoke a highside? (My answers: People cross lanes all the time, all riders need to be vigilant everywhere from day 1; much faster than any newbie will take the bike; and no)

I'm not suggesting or recommending that a jittery newbie force themselves into an environment that they are not ready for or they are scared of. But blanket advice that it takes a year or more before you should go on a twisty road is a bit heavy-handed and in my opinion not particularly productive. All of us learn a bit about our riding every day we're on the bike, and the way we learn is by riding in all sorts of conditions, environments, with people of differing skill levels. Personally, I was on twisty roads 2 weeks after MSF, sometimes learning from friends what was appropriate and what wasn't, and in between those rides exploring similar roads on my own.

Ey jeffery lets go sometime! Im in Cypress. My friend in La Palma is going to get his bike soon.

Jeffrey and all SoCal guys,

I posted a thread about heading up to ACH next Tues (March 17th).


http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14944

Come along!

Sorry Purspeed, not buying it. There's nothing magical about a canyon that makes riders turn into uncontrollable beasts pushing beyond their abilities until they fly off a cliff at warp speed. Of course it can happen, but it's always a choice of the carbon component at the controls.



"Statistically far more risky" implies that you know of some statistics, and I'd be very interested in seeing any of them that you could share. All of the statistics I've ever seen do show that a common motorcycle accident is a rider who flubs a turn and runs wide, but nowhere in any of those statistics did I ever see where it asked the rider if they were familiar with that turn or that road before they biffed. People crash on the street in front of their house, and people crash halfway across the country. Familiarity is likely a good thing, but if people ride as if they have no control over their speed, even that familiarity can bite as people ramp up their entry speeds into a turn that they feel they know all too well.



What about this situation is uniquely relevant to the canyon environment? Do vehicles not drift over the yellow anywhere else? At what speed do you have to have a Ninja 250 up to before you can provoke a rear wheel slide? Does chopping the throttle on the 250 provide enough back-torque to the rear wheel to provoke a highside? (My answers: People cross lanes all the time, all riders need to be vigilant everywhere from day 1; much faster than any newbie will take the bike; and no)

I'm not suggesting or recommending that a jittery newbie force themselves into an environment that they are not ready for or they are scared of. But blanket advice that it takes a year or more before you should go on a twisty road is a bit heavy-handed and in my opinion not particularly productive. All of us learn a bit about our riding every day we're on the bike, and the way we learn is by riding in all sorts of conditions, environments, with people of differing skill levels. Personally, I was on twisty roads 2 weeks after MSF, sometimes learning from friends what was appropriate and what wasn't, and in between those rides exploring similar roads on my own.

I respect your perspective but don't agree with it. Once a rider has about a year under their belt and a trackday, it puts them in a catagory of skills that empower them to know their limits and how to respond to the spectrum of hazards that they will encounter.

After a trackday/school, anyone will be hard pressed to disagree.

I respect your perspective but don't agree with it. Once a rider has about a year under their belt and a trackday, it puts them in a catagory of skills that empower them to know their limits and how to respond to the spectrum of hazards that they will encounter.

After a trackday/school, anyone will be hard pressed to disagree.

I just don't think it's a simple formula. I know riders who had years of experience and thousands of miles under their belts, who go to the hills and crash on their first group ride in the twisties. And I know riders who with weeks of experience and just a few thousand miles who had the necessary skills and self-control to not only safely navigate whatever road they found themselves on (at their own pace, of course!), but enjoy themselves while doing it. Anyone on an internet forum throwing out standards like "you must be this tall to get on this ride" in the form of years of experience or miles traveled is missing the mark in both directions; overestimating the ability of some and underestimating the ability of others. Even as a general rule of thumb it's just way too broad and vague to be useful.

I don't want anyone to misinterpret my position as believing that a newer rider has already learned everything they'll ever learn on a bike. I do believe that we continuously improve our skills over a very long period of time riding motorcycles. Personally I noticed that for myself at 5,000 miles, at around 10,000 miles, and then again around 30,000 miles, before things started to plateau a bit once again. Same deal with trackdays. First couple trackdays you learn quickly, realized I was into a groove after 5 or so, felt another improvement after 15 or so, then at the 30 - 40 day level I realized that things had become easier to do the pace I was doing, I just was always going to be slower than I hoped. :) In both environments, it's a realization that things that used to require some amount of concentration became second nature and now don't require a moment's thought. But the most important point I can get across is that we all learn in different ways and at a different pace, and defining for someone else when they should or shouldn't ride on a certain type of public road is at best inaccurate and at worst condescending. I can't say it any clearer than that.

P.S. I do know that you mean well and have Jeff's interests at heart, and please believe that I do as well.

I have never done a track day in my life...

Note to self: stay away from twisties/cannyons, you are not skilled enough. Bad Sunny very bad!

I have never done a track day in my life...

Note to self: stay away from twisties/cannyons, you are not skilled enough. Bad Sunny very bad!

I have succeeded.

I just don't think it's a simple formula. I know riders who had years of experience and thousands of miles under their belts, who go to the hills and crash on their first group ride in the twisties. And I know riders who with weeks of experience and just a few thousand miles who had the necessary skills and self-control to not only safely navigate whatever road they found themselves on (at their own pace, of course!), but enjoy themselves while doing it. Anyone on an internet forum throwing out standards like "you must be this tall to get on this ride" in the form of years of experience or miles traveled is missing the mark in both directions; overestimating the ability of some and underestimating the ability of others. Even as a general rule of thumb it's just way too broad and vague to be useful.

I don't want anyone to misinterpret my position as believing that a newer rider has already learned everything they'll ever learn on a bike. I do believe that we continuously improve our skills over a very long period of time riding motorcycles. Personally I noticed that for myself at 5,000 miles, at around 10,000 miles, and then again around 30,000 miles, before things started to plateau a bit once again. Same deal with trackdays. First couple trackdays you learn quickly, realized I was into a groove after 5 or so, felt another improvement after 15 or so, then at the 30 - 40 day level I realized that things had become easier to do the pace I was doing, I just was always going to be slower than I hoped. :) In both environments, it's a realization that things that used to require some amount of concentration became second nature and now don't require a moment's thought. But the most important point I can get across is that we all learn in different ways and at a different pace, and defining for someone else when they should or shouldn't ride on a certain type of public road is at best inaccurate and at worst condescending. I can't say it any clearer than that.

P.S. I do know that you mean well and have Jeff's interests at heart, and please believe that I do as well.

I could very well have written what you have because I wouldn't differ if it weren't for my particular set of personal and professional experiences.

In the end, the reader/rider of our posts will hopefully come away better informed.

I could very well have written what you have because I wouldn't differ if it weren't for my particular set of personal and professional experiences.

In the end, the reader/rider of our posts will hopefully come away better informed.


i know i have! its all about closing your eyes and feeling the road
:thumbup: