Can this be done for cheap? I have seen brembo 4 piston calipers go for $175 on ebay, then the bracket is $100.

I dont think these bikes go fast enough for those brakes..... :(

^^^ lol

I am just pretty annoyed with how bad my brakes are, my track/daily car stops amazing and I havnt even installed my wilwood 4 piston 12" rotor bbk yet, and my ruckus stops great which has a disc converison. then my ninja 250 stops the worst out of all haha.

Its like driving a f1 car then stepping into a z06 vette, it stops good enough but it just isnt as responsive as I am use too.

You want good stopping power? Install a steel brake line, veshra race pads and your favorite lever to get the feeling you want. And most importantly... bleed every bubble of air out of the system. Stoppie at will, :)

I am just pretty annoyed with how bad my brakes are, my track/daily car stops amazing and I havnt even installed my wilwood 4 piston 12" rotor bbk yet, and my ruckus stops great which has a disc converison. then my ninja 250 stops the worst out of all haha.

Its like driving a f1 car then stepping into a z06 vette, it stops good enough but it just isnt as responsive as I am use too.

Big brake kits don't add braking power. They add surface area that helps with heat dispersion. Track car, sure. Track bike, sure. Oem brakes and pads are more than adequate to lock the wheels on a street vehicle. If you're getting fade, like you would experience on a track, then a big brake kit is the way to go.

If what you really want is better initial bite, follow csmiths recommendation. Just don't get yourself all twisted up thinking that either new pads or a big brake kit will reduce your stopping distance. The limiting factor in your brake distance is the friction between your tire and whatever surface you're on. Want to stop quicker? Get better tires.

Paging rojoracing53 for insight on his journey looking for better brake feedback that led him to his R6 wheel conversion

Paging rojoracing53 for insight on his journey looking for better brake feedback that led him to his R6 wheel conversion

Did I hear R6 wheel, dual discs an all??? Search button...

Um no, a bigger diameter rotor give more braking power because of and increase in leverage(simple quantum physics):thumbup:

Brembo makes masters and calipers of high quality so you get better and more consistent feel through the whole heat cycle of the braking system compared to a system with a comparable piston ratio.

What your looking for are better pads, larger rotor, and a SS line and a better lever.

Optional would be a 4 piston caliper and if you get that you'll need a master cylinder with a little larger piston to bring your piston ratio back to where you want it. Your master cylinder piston size is extremely important trust me I know because I tried 4 different sizes to find the one that best suited my style.

I almost settled for those larger 310mm rotor and bracket they sell out of china but then I came across a bunch of old Yamaha racing parts and decided free was better.

I don't care what you do as long as you only have one rotor to work with your brakes will always fell weak compared to a true sport bike but fear not they can be made better with ether a lot of money or a lot of free parts and time. It's simply a matter of what's available to you, and no I'm not remaking my setup for anyone because it's just to time consuming and it'd be cheaper to buy a real bike:rolleyes:

I picked up EBC HH sintered pads while reading on this forum to replace my (80% life) old pads that came on the bike (aftermarket) hopeing that the pads just sucked.

Braking got better but no initial bite at all. I will purchase SS lines and lever (any suggestions?) next. Maybe thatll help making the initial bite better.

Get pads and SS lines and see how you like it.

With the stock setup I've done a stoppie at the MSF sport bike course. I don't think the brakes are that terrible.

One word about brakes and I think it should be a well known fact that a brake caliper with the pistons working from both sides is much better then a floating-caliper brake, just look at all brakes for SS's and sports or racing cars. The floating-caliper brake is a cheap solution for the manufacturers and that's really what it is.

Um no, a bigger diameter rotor give more braking power because of and increase in leverage(simple quantum physics):thumbup:


false... sure, they have the capability of producing more braking power, but you can't use it because your tires/road surface is the limiting factor, NOT the stock brakes.

oem brakes are more than capable of locking the wheels/looping the bike. what that means, is that if you give it any more braking force, you lock the wheels or loop the bike. (this may change on super sticky aftermarket tires, I'm on oem tires still).

What oem brakes lack is good heat dispersion to avoid brake fade during heavy use and lever feel. they take a lot more force on the lever to achieve the same braking force. Either way, you can't put more braking force down than the tires can handle.

what a big brake kit provides is less input for the same braking force, and better heat dispersion so you don't overheat your brakes/boil your fluid if you ride track and are a heavy braker.

big brake kits don't make you stop quicker. period.

i'm all for installing big brake kits if necessary, just understand what they're there for, and it's not to stop quicker.

Lol. Tell the AMA pro more about brakes. I love watching education. Have you considered a state-paid job?

false... sure, they have the capability of producing more braking power, but you can't use it because your tires/road surface is the limiting factor, NOT the stock brakes.

oem brakes are more than capable of locking the wheels/looping the bike. what that means, is that if you give it any more braking force, you lock the wheels or loop the bike. (this may change on super sticky aftermarket tires, I'm on oem tires still).

While you're correct that both systems can lock the wheel, and therefore the stock system doesn't need a larger rotor / stronger caliper to physically stop the wheel faster, there's more to it than that.

For quickest stops, the rider needs to hold the tire right on the edge of lockup from high speeds all the way down. Better quality rotors/pads/calipers, starting with larger rotors, allow for more precision right near that lockup point, as they do provide more rotational torque for given brake pressure. At some point it does become all about feel, which seems a bit wishy-washy, but is nevertheless true.

While you're correct that both systems can lock the wheel, and therefore the stock system doesn't need a larger rotor / stronger caliper to physically stop the wheel faster, there's more to it than that.

For quickest stops, the rider needs to hold the tire right on the edge of lockup from high speeds all the way down. Better quality rotors/pads/calipers, starting with larger rotors, allow for more precision right near that lockup point, as they do provide more rotational torque for given brake pressure. At some point it does become all about feel, which seems a bit wishy-washy, but is nevertheless true.

not sure i'd agree with that Alex.

at full lockup, you're probably using about 30% of the available force from a a big-brake kit, vs about 70% of an oem setup.

tiny inputs at 30% will yield much greater change in braking force, where as those same increments will yield much less change in braking force on the oem setup, making it easier to avoid lockup.

in my experience, pads make the most bang-for-the-buck, because they have strong initial bite, getting you to the max braking force quicker.

You're also forgetting about the ratio of master cylinder size to piston size


So tell me fox, why do the pros use massive dual disk carbon ceramic setups? Clearly a single tiny rotor would be sufficient.

You're also forgetting about the ratio of master cylinder size to piston size


So tell me fox, why do the pros use massive dual disk carbon ceramic setups? Clearly a single tiny rotor would be sufficient.

heat dispersion

Really? Because I'm thinking something to the tune of feedback and feel


Yes heat dispersion also. But that's not the only reason, like you're stuck on thinking.

thank you for proving my point.

Lol. Tell the AMA pro more about brakes. I love watching education. Have you considered a state-paid job?

watch it there young cub. you have much to learn. :thumbup:

watch it there young cub. you have much to learn. :thumbup:

He's referring to the actual AMA pro in this thread... :rolleyes:

R6 thoughts : I am thinking "I need to scrub about 90mph in 250ft". These race pads and steel line work pretty well at that on the stock rotors. (per race spec)

250 thoughts: I need to scrub off about 40ish mph for this corner in about 100ft. This stock setup blows chunks, all the good bite comes at the end of the braking zone. :( Time for an upgraded system, ahhhh I feel safe again. (still per race spec)

Heat dispersion? You guys use the brake too much I guess. lol

Um no, a bigger diameter rotor give more braking power because of and increase in leverage(simple quantum physics):thumbup:

This must mean a Buell has the best braking off all bikes.

http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/6132_20100717141259_L.jpg Not so sure it's as simple as that.

seriously, there is obnoxious miss-information being spread throughout this damn thread.

there are several reasons to upgrade brakes
1 - heat dispersion
2 - lever feel

take your pick. you won't gain any braking force, but it'll certainly help with those two things.

not sure i'd agree with that Alex.

at full lockup, you're probably using about 30% of the available force from a a big-brake kit, vs about 70% of an oem setup.

tiny inputs at 30% will yield much greater change in braking force, where as those same increments will yield much less change in braking force on the oem setup, making it easier to avoid lockup.

Sorry, that just doesn't seem to be the case. The problem is exactly what you've described (and I believe misinterpreted). When the OEM system is already close to the limit, managing that lockup right at the limit requires more attention, not less. You want to be able to add and subtract small increments of braking force, and a smaller rotor that is closer to its limit allows for coarser adjustments. Not finer. One clarification here, the increased available braking force due to increased torque only works if the calipers have placed the pads further outbound on the new rotor. Adding a larger disk, with a caliper that still has the effective pad contact exactly the same distance from the hub will not benefit from any increased leverage.

in my experience, pads make the most bang-for-the-buck, because they have strong initial bite, getting you to the max braking force quicker.

Yes, but we've switched gears here. Most would agree that upgraded pads are in fact the best bang for the buck to improve a stock braking system. Many would perhaps agree that decent pads, perhaps stiffer lines, and good maintenance may be all that is necessary for good braking performance on a 250, even on track.

But that doesn't settle the proposition that the only reason to use a larger disk is for heat dispersion. It's a factor; it's not the only factor.

why do you care about heat on a 250. you worry about heat when you are going from 180mph to 25mph. if you are braking that much on a 250 you are doing it wrong. dont slow down, go faster. as far as brake feel with a bigger caliper... switching to a 4 or even 8 pot caliper i could see being a massive benefit to feel. a bigger rotor? with good pads there is no brake fade currently. you aren't gaining friction surface area by changing the rotor size. the surface area is limited by the pads which have sizes set by the caliper. bigger rotors are for heat dispersion. who cares about heat on a 250. more pots == better control

At least Rebecca caught my joke. All fox heard was a whoosh.

Judging by my nasty PM inbox right now, it looks like my ribbing/instigating hit some nerve.

deuces.

Sorry, that just doesn't seem to be the case. The problem is exactly what you've described (and I believe misinterpreted). When the OEM system is already close to the limit, managing that lockup right at the limit requires more attention, not less. You want to be able to add and subtract small increments of braking force, and a smaller rotor that is closer to its limit allows for coarser adjustments. Not finer.
This all comes down to personal feel, and what you think. Personally, my experience has been that when something is more sensitive, it's harder to be precise.


Yes, but we've switched gears here. Most would agree that upgraded pads are in fact the best bang for the buck to improve a stock braking system. Many would perhaps agree that decent pads, perhaps stiffer lines, and good maintenance may be all that is necessary for good braking performance on a 250, even on track.
I disagree that we've switched gears. We're talking about improving brake feel. I think you and I both agree that a big brake kit cannot increase braking force, only change the brake feel (and increase heat dispersion). Heck, others are arguing that heat dispersion is a non-issue, so this becomes more relevant.

my experience with brake fade is on my previous car. Installing a bbk helped during autox sessions because of the heat dispersion. Installing pads helped minimally because the aftermarket pads had a higher heat tolerance, but gave the initial bite I was looking for, until my pads were overheated. I have never taken a motorcycle on a track, so I have never experienced brake fade, but assumed it would be similar to a car.


But that doesn't settle the proposition that the only reason to use a larger disk is for heat dispersion. It's a factor; it's not the only factor.
i think you and others missed this earlier, so here it is again.

What oem brakes lack is good heat dispersion to avoid brake fade during heavy use and lever feel. they take a lot more force on the lever to achieve the same braking force.

This is gearing up to be a great thread keep the suggestions coming. The more correct info we get out there the better:thumbup:

Also just because some forum jockey says he's an AMA Pro doesn't mean jack $hit. Most Pro racers are terrible mechanics and lack any advanced understanding of bike physics, they just ride the damn things very fast.

Hey CycleCam303 get over here you may learn something.

because I don't have days available to me to dispense the information in my head...

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-system-and-upgrade-selection

this is a decent read.

1) The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. The brakes slow the rotation of the wheels and tires. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use - which, in the case of aftermarket advertising, may or may not be the ones originally fitted to the car by the OE manufacturer.

2) The brakes function by converting the kinetic energy of the car into thermal energy during deceleration - producing heat, lots of heat - which must then be transferred into the surroundings and into the air stream.

The amount of heat produced in context with a brake system needs to be considered with reference to time meaning rate of work done or power. Looking at only one side of a front brake assembly, the rate of work done by stopping a 3500-pound car traveling at 100 Mph in eight seconds is 30,600 calories/sec or 437,100 BTU/hr or is equivalent to 128 kW or 172 Hp. The disc dissipates approximately 80% of this energy. The ratio of heat transfer among the three mechanisms is dependent on the operating temperature of the system. The primary difference being the increasing contribution of radiation as the temperature of the disc rises. The contribution of the conductive mechanism is also dependent on the mass of the disc and the attachment designs, with disc used for racecars being typically lower in mass and fixed by mechanism that are restrictive to conduction. At 1000oF the ratios on a racing 2-piece annular disc design are 10% conductive, 45% convective, 45% radiation. Similarly on a high performance street one-piece design, the ratios are 25% conductive, 25% convective, 50% radiation.

3) Repeated hard stops require both effective heat transfer and adequate thermal storage capacity within the disc. The more disc surface area per unit mass and the greater and more efficient the mass flow of air over and through the disc, the faster the heat will be dissipated and the more efficient the entire system will be. At the same time, the brake discs must have enough thermal storage capacity to prevent distortion and/or cracking from thermal stress until the heat can be dissipated. This is not particularly important in a single stop but it is crucial in the case of repeated stops from high speed - whether racing, touring or towing.

4) Control and balance are at least as important as ultimate stopping power. The objective of the braking system is to utilize the tractive capacity of all of the tires to the maximum practical extent without locking a tire. In order to achieve this, the braking force between the front and rear tires must be nearly optimally proportioned even with ABS equipped vehicles. At the same time, the required pedal pressure, pedal travel and pedal firmness must allow efficient modulation by the driver.

5) Braking performance is about more than just brakes. In order for even the best braking systems to function effectively, tires, suspension and driving techniques must be optimized.

For maximum brake potential, vehicles benefit from proper corner weight balance, a lower CG, a longer wheelbase, more rear weight bias and increased aerodynamic down force at the rear.

big brake kits don't make you stop quicker. period.

i'm all for installing big brake kits if necessary, just understand what they're there for, and it's not to stop quicker.

The real question is, will it drop panties at bike night? If not, it's a waste.

When I run the sm set up on my dirt bike even the most entry level kits include a much bigger rotor. The stopping power increases immensely and there is no fade that you get from standard dirt bike discs.

This must mean a Buell has the best braking off all bikes.

http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/6132_20100717141259_L.jpg Not so sure it's as simple as that.

It's very simple but not in the shown way or this picture.
The point is that with a bigger rotor the friction surface is bigger and that gives the ability to lead more heat away (idk if my germlish is good enough to understand :rolleyes:).

To clear the record, I was referring to Rojo, the most picky, anal, and critical motorcycle rider ever (read his reviews of Jiggle's ninja 1000 front end when Jiggles couldn't figure out what was wrong with it) when I mentioned an AMA rider.

I'm flattered though Fox, you thought of me.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/rdj_thanks.gif

It's very simple but not in the shown way or this picture.
The point is that with a bigger rotor the friction surface is bigger and that gives the ability to lead more heat away (idk if my germlish is good enough to understand :rolleyes:).

The benefit of a system like this is that the force applied to the wheel, by the brakes, is further from the axle. The longer that is, the less force is needed for the same output. Think of using a breaker bar when loosening a nut. It's much easier the longer your lever arm gets. This means that if all else were the same, you don't need to pull on the lever as much as you would if this were the same size rotor as the ninjette.

There's so many things at play that all change brake feel, from the number of pistons in the calipers, to rotor diameter, to brake pad chemistry, to brake lines, to brake fluid, etc. If someone has hundreds to spend on calipers, brackets, pads, rotors, fluid, etc. then go for it! I just think you can provide yourself with a very similar feel by changing pads, changing fluid, and changing lines. (I guess that all assumes you can get a much better performing pad than the oem pads on the ninjette. I never researched that.)

then, there is the panty dropping factor. find a large rotor with the most number of drilled holes, then drill some more, and hell, might as well fit a porsche caliper on there while you're at it.

I did a little experiment to help me with some of the concepts being discussed here.

Test 1
I took a top and spun it.
I let it spin for 10 seconds
Result: It didn't fall, stability was good

Test 2
I spun the top again
While spinning, I used a plain jane bic ink pen and touched it near the center
Result: The top reduced spinning speed but didn't fall and stability was reduced

Test 3
I spun the top again
While spinning, I used a plain jane bic ink pen and touched it near the edge
Result: The top reduced spinning speed with a greater effect and stability was greatly reduced

I think I am beginning to understand what is going on with the Buell style brake setup. How is the Buell setup addressing the stability issue? Is there a stability issue at all? I have experienced brake chatter before, seems this type of setup would be even more prone to this. Also, is their a Buell with ABS? Seems the pulsing effect of ABS would not work out so well here.