how to adjust camshaft timing
adjustable cam timing how to
this thread is about how to adjust cam timing. Before I begin doing it with a 250 ninja motor. First lets look at what its all about.

DEGREEING IN YOUR CAMSHAFT

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WHAT IS DEGREEING IN YOUR CAMSHAFT?
Degreeing in your camshaft means synchronizing the camshaft's position with the crankshaft. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically. If there were no manufacturing tolerances, you would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed, but with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets) all with their own standards and tolerances that when installed, can stack up against you. You can never be sure that the cam is in its correct position until you degree it in. For best performance, you should degree in all performance camshafts.

The basic tools required are a degree wheel, a stable pointer that can be mounted to the engine, a dial indicator with at least one inch of travel in .001" increments, a stand that mounts it to the engine, and a positive stop device to locate TDC.



FINDING TRUE TOP DEAD CENTER ( TDC )
DISCONNECT THE BATTERY! Do not use the starter to perform any of these steps.

To find Top Dead Center use a piston stop, to stop the piston in the same position on either side of TDC and take readings from the degree wheel. You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true TDC point.

First mount the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft, and rotate the engine to approximate TDC

Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel.

Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt.

Turn the engine by hand, rotating it until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop bolt.

Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer.

Turn the engine by hand in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the piston stop bolt again.

Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads.

Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two.

Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount.

Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of TDC are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true TDC point.

Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole.

You're now done finding true TDC

we will start with finding top dead center.this is a video for that,
I will now go out and get things set up on the ninja engine.

http://youtu.be/bcMuttJ9RFc
__________________

You're now done finding true TDC.

FINDING INTAKE LOBE CENTER LINE
Remove all valve lash (clearance). Place your dial indicator on the valve spring retainer, or tappet. If you are degreeing in a pushrod engine we recommend placing the indicator on the valve retainer. Please be sure the angle of your indicator travels at the same angle that your valve travels. Zero the dial indicator, then turn the engine until you reach full lift and record how far the valve traveled off its fully seated position. This will be the actual valve lift of your desired cam profile. Note: Rocker arm engines can vary. At this point make sure there is additional clearance with your dial indicator to verify plenty of travel for our next step.

Rotate the engine until you are back to Top Dead Center (TDC). Zero your dial indicator. Next you will start turning the engine until you are .050 off the seated position of the valve (It is very important to turn the engine it’s normal way of rotation). Look at the degree wheel and determine how many degrees the valve opened. If we are working on the intake valve this will normally occur Before Top Dead Center (BTDC). Record that number in degrees. NOTE: Some low overlap engines may open After Top Dead Center (ATDC). Record that number in degrees for further calculations.

Look at your inner dial on the dial indicator and record that number to help achieve our next step, however some dial indicators do not have this feature and is not needed to proceed. See WEB CAM camshaft degree kit part #95-144. Proceed to rotate the engine until your inner dial is back on the number it left from. You will notice your big dial is almost back to .050. Slightly move it until it is exactly reads at .050. If you pass it back way up and come at it again. You are now .050 from closing on the opposite side to achieve your next number on the degree wheel, which is normally After Bottom Dead center (ABDC). Now you will use the following steps to properly calculate what actual lobe centers are on the opening valve timing events.

If the valve opened Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) do the following calculation:

Take the open number plus the closing number plus 180°, which will be the duration at .050. Next divide the duration into 2. Subtract the open from that number, which will equals the centerline of the intake cam.

:thumbup:

I an having trouble posting the article from web cams.
I am making a tool to check TDC. Its a hollowed out spark plug with a 1/4 inch extension welded in one end . And a wood tip glued onto the other. This will act as a piston stop with the head on.

waiting to see the rest of the story/directions/video(?)!!!

The setup I am using to measure cam timing on a 2098-12 250 ninja engine is a motion pro degree wheel. I welded a thread to the end of the tool that pulls the fly wheel. I have to remove the side cover for this .
I also fashioned a pointer from a piece of aluminum. The pointer lines up with the mark on the flywheel. But that is just for reference. Measurements are taken at the wheel.

For the top I bolt a flat piece of steel to the cam cap . I have to remove the corner of each can cap to allow the dial indicator to reach the cam bucket.

I cannot get the article from web camshafts ( do not search web cams)
I am not sure what is going on. If someone can post it here that would be great. But we are going to go one step at a time anyhow.

So first step is put the measuring stuff on the engine
You will need...
deg wheel
Flywheel puller to mount deg wheel.
A way to attach the deg wheel to flywheel puller
Dial indicator
Some sort of pointer for the deg wheel
And a piston stop.

Second step is to remove the valve lash. It goes over this like its no big deal. What I did was adjust all the valves after assembling the engine. Then removed the shims closest to the chain and replaced them with very thick shims so there is no clearance .>.05mm anyow.

Once everything is set up I will need to find TDC . So after I finish the piston stop that is next.

I will wright the rest of the article by hand as we go since I can't cut and paste it.

These are examples of the math for finding the intake lobe center line.

Example
+10* Opening before Top dead center(BTDC)

+39* Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ATDC)

+180* Distance from Top Dead Center(TDC)to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)

= 229* Total Duration@.050 inches of lift

229*/2=114.5*

114.5*- 10*=104.5* lobe center.



If the value opened After Top Dead Center.(ATDC) subtract the open from the close plus 180*, which will be your duration at .050.
Next divide the duration into 2. Add back the open number which will equal the centerline of the intake side.

Example
-10* Open After Top Dead Center (ATDC)

+39* Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC)

+180* Distance from Top Dead Center(TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)

+209*Total Duration.@.050 inches of lift

209*/2=104.5*

104.5* +10*=114.5* lobe center.

Now is the time to adjust the gears.

I am going to make all the measurements on the ninja engine now. First I will put in what I have , I am using a stock intake and exhaust cam. I have the adjustable sprockets set up to the center of there travel.
So first I will figure out what the intake cam centerline is . Then move on to finding the exhaust cam centerline.

Please see the attached PDF

Thanks Mike. Now everyone can follow along. I am going to type out the directions from web cams one step at a time. And inject my findings as I go.

OK looks like we are getting two feet of snow. Time to work on this might come early.
First I have to redo the mounting for the dial indicator. The piece of metal I used is to flexible. So the pointed has to much slop. It really needs to be very ridged. That will be first thing. Then find intake centerline. At this stage I just want to see what I have and learn how to measure it. Not trying to set or change anything yet.

This is great. I took a piece of flat steel. 3/16 I think. Bolted it straight across the cam caps. Now the dial indicator is rock solid. Tomorrow we measure!!

I would not recommend the dial indicator mount that has a black flexible shaft with vice grips. Harbor freight sells one for under forty dollars. It is far to flexible for this job.

Eric,

Do you have your numbers from claying the motor as is? You will want to know this so that you can measure your clearances at 10 degrees BTDC and 10 degrees ATDC and have a very accurate point of comparison for how you are measuring now.

I did not clay the motor. When I assembled it without a head gasket I could see the mark that on the piston ware it hit the head. Kinda a lump between the valve reliefs. Its totally gone now.

I mean for piston to valve clearance. Once you start moving around the timing you will need to check your clearances 10 ATDC and 10 BTDC to avoid issues. This is where the valves come the closest to the piston. Changing the timing changes these clearances. The dome point of contact is not my point of concern.

Couple links for info

Http://www.starracing.com/Cam%20Lobe%20Center%20Explained.htm

Http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Cams/CamBasics.html

I would not recommend the dial indicator mount that has a black flexible shaft with vice grips. Harbor freight sells one for under forty dollars. It is far to flexible for this job.

I think the key words are "Harbor Freight". Remember you get what you pay for. I have been using mine for decades with no issues.

I used the HF as an example. I tried a snap on one. Needed to sand the ball and socket to keep it still. But the over all length is the problem even if it was welded. This job involves moving the cams just a hair. What ever you use .The pointer must be ROCK SOLID or you will get different readings every time.

MUST BE ROCK SOLID

agreed.

This is the number I got for the intake can centerline.

+10° Opening Before Top Dead Center(BTDC)

+34°Closing After Bottom Dead Center(ABDC)

+180°Distance from (TDC)to(BDC)

=224° Total Duration@.050 inch of lift

224°/2=112°

112°-10°=102° lobe center

I will recheck this a couple more times but I think it is good. Now we move to the Exhaust center line

The above math is incorrect. The first number should be 9 not 10. And this makes the centerline 102.5 not 102. I did not change it in the past post to point out how important it is to check a couple times.

Now I am moveing on to the exhaust side.
First thing to do is measure total lift. WOW. I could not believe it. The intake is 378 thousands and the exhaust is only 270! I need to get another intake cam. It is a full revolution of the dial more lift. No wounded the nitrous loved it.

The numbers for the exhaust centerline are
+39° Opening Before Bottom Dead Center ( BBDC)

+4° closing After Top Dead Center (ATDC).

+180° Distance from Bottom Dead Center. (BDC) To Top Dead Center. (TDC)

= 223° Total Dutation@ .050 inches of lift.

223°/2. =111.5°

111.5 - 4 = 107.5 Lobe Center.

Now this is just a starting point. And I am going to get another intake cam. But in the meantime. HELP!!!
Brandon or anyone what do I change the cams to? I have no clue what numbers I should look for. At this point it has been an exersize in finding the numbers. Now I want to tune the engine for top RPM with 100. % power adder with nitrous.
Looking for 70 HP.

For better top end power I need to widen the camshaft centerline.
When I talked to Brandon he gave me numbers intake 108°-110°
And 110°-120° Before with the exhaust. It has taken a while to get my head around the numbers . But I think I get it.

I made a Quick adjustment and set the intake to 106° and the exhaust is at 109° I am tempted to run it like this. But I will wait and get a second intake cam.

For better top end power I need to widen the camshaft centerline.
When I talked to Brandon he gave me numbers intake 108°-110°
And 110°-120° Before with the exhaust. It has taken a while to get my head around the numbers . But I think I get it.

I made a Quick adjustment and set the intake to 106° and the exhaust is at 109° I am tempted to run it like this. But I will wait and get a second intake cam.

I have never heard of making the center line "wider". You can advance it or retard it or use it as a reference for increasing or decreasing overlap. It appears the specs he gave you are pretty vague. Overlap is something to consider between NA engines and supercharged engines.

I guess a more accurate turn would be lobe center separation. By adjusting the cams from the stock position. To numbers closer to Brandons suggested number I increased the desperation. The is supposed to good for top end power. We will see.

I have not run the engine yet.
But will be doing that soon. This is a list and photo of all the tools you need to adjust cams using adjustable cam sprockets or grinding the bolt holes out some.
Piston stop made from spark plug with wood tip.
Degree wheel
Flywheel puller with nut welded to tip. ( to mount deg wheel)
Dial indicator.
Valve shims to remove valve lash.
Pointer for the degree wheel
I 1/8 inch steel plate to rest dial indicator on.
The instructions from Web Cams
Normal hand tools to remove the engine.

I forget...did you do this mod by itself or with others? I am wondering how much hp you can gain from just this.

Awesome stuff btw

The motor is stock with 66mm Wiesco pistons ported head and Barnett clutch. That and the BRT-Rtis ignition and 31mm CR Special carbs. If it goes above 35 HP its the cam timing.

Actually, you don't need to remove valve lash to find, or adjust lobe center. The opening and closing numbers are different, but the formula arrives at the same data point since the lash is equal on both side of the ramp. You do need to remove valve lash to find the true duration data, which may or may not impact how the cam performs.

One of the most common ways around camshaft rules in which "stock cams" are required is to build a cam with stock base circle and stock gross lift, but change the ramp profile to get fast opening, or more duration, or even a slower closing profile to help with valve control.

The generally recognized model is "duration at .050 lift" since it is very difficult to determine when the action of going from base circle to ramp occurs. Also, it is widely believed that little in the way of air flow begins until .050 lift. Personally, I buy into that for the intake side where the pressure differential in a NA motor is very low during valve overlap.

I'm back at it with adjusting camshaft timing.
I have Web Camshafts and will need to dial them in. I have some specs to work with both from Web Camshafts themselves as a starting point. And the specs from this thread. Any input or suggestion are welcome because I am basicly clueless as to what to do and why and even how for the most part.
I have all the parts except a woodruff key for the crank( don't ask). But I will have that soon enough.

I'd suggetst a set of EX250-H1/H2 Cams, known here in the UK as GPZ250 or GPX250, they have the longest duration I'm aware of, short of buying custom ones. Increase the overlap for max RPM power, reduce for more torque/mid-range power.

Oh and most engines make max power around 105 degrees on the cams, start there & then test adjustments. Make a mark on the adjustable cam sprockets to suit 108 either way in 1degree amounts (3 marks each side of 105) on the bench. Saves having to strip & re do once testing with a running engine, will allow you to set by eye in 1/2degree amounts either way.

Mine have 280 degrees of duration each. What do those have?

I'm back at it with adjusting camshaft timing.
I have Web Camshafts and will need to dial them in. I have some specs to work with both from Web Camshafts themselves as a starting point. And the specs from this thread. Any input or suggestion are welcome because I am basicly clueless as to what to do and why and even how for the most part.
I have all the parts except a woodruff key for the crank( don't ask). But I will have that soon enough.

What did Web give for numbers?

Also, I have a spare Web cam if you want it.

Early H1-H2 models had 277degree duration (I assume at 1mm lift) according to the manual. My H12 has 272degrees, but I've not verified that. I will once I get round to the big bore fit with head porting etc.

Web said tk start with 106 intake open 12 deg close 44 deg
104 exhaust open 44 close 14 . But she was reading from a book. I don't think they had pure top end power in mind.

Web said tk start with 106 intake open 12 deg close 44 deg
104 exhaust open 44 close 14 . But she was reading from a book. I don't think they had pure top end power in mind.

ok. what were your centers without adjustment (i.e. stock sprockets)?

there were a few people on here that had done some testing and playing with the numbers, but honestly I cannot recall seeing them on here anymore. Also, like Brandon, they were kinda vague on the numbers. I think its because it takes so much time and work in order to find the best numbers, that people dont want to just give the information away. How much would it be near you for a tuner to find the best numbers?

There are no tuners I know of. And this sort of work is all trial and error. That is why I started this thread. It is valuable information. When I first bought the sprockets I just put them in and tried riding the bike around. All I GT was detonation or the engine would not start.
I then played around measuring compression. Just cold cranking. I could get the compression to go from 90 psi to almost 300 psi.
Now that I have the tools I can be more specific about it. Last week on the dyno of the first time I ran the 282 that I started this thread with. I have a stock engine I will use the tools and find out what is stock. That will give me a base line and help me get comfortable measuring

I think I have the lobe center figures for a stock 2010 ninja 250 engine. The engine has 31000 miles on it . But ran very well and was very well taken care of.
I used this method to figure things out.

http://www.enginelogics.com/degree-dual-overhead-camshafts/

It was just easyer to deal with than the Web Camshafts page.

So this is what I got after a second edit
Intake from 0 TDC
Rotate to .040
10deg BTDC
Then rotate till the dial reads.040
Stop at 27deg BBDC

27
+180
=207
-10
=197
Devided by 2
98.5

Exhaust from 0* TDC
Then rotating the engine until .040 lift stopping at 36 deg BBDC
Continue rotating to max lift. Then keep going until the dial reads.040
Stopping st 69 BTDC

69
+180
= 249
-36
=214
devided by2
106.5

So intake lobe center is 98.5
Exhaust lobe center is 106.5
Does this sound right? I have checked it about six times and get the same readings.
Now I am going to adjust the valves and install the adjustable sprockets. And set everything back up and get it to the stock position.
Once that is done I will do a compression test..

Looks like my exhaust reading are wrong. Don't know what happen. I suspect te dial indicator was doing some binding I just don't know.

But after installing the adjustable sprockets I could not get any sensible readings. After a lot of fiddling around this is what I have now.

I'm just looking for min and max readings. Moving the cam gear from one direction to the other.

Intake range is 94.5 - 98
The exhaust range is 105-109.
I am still totally clueless as to what to do. I want to get back to stock setting. So I think I will reinstall the stock cam gears and start all over.
I will edit the above post after I get that done.

This is giving me a headache. But I am getting better at it.

It seems as if you are making this more difficult than necessary. You should be able to lay the stock gears over top of the aftermarket gears and make an indication of stock timing, then using a protractor, score lines for every degree of retardation. The difficult part would come in tuning it, but an hour with a dyno and some adjusting and you should be able to get it adjusted fairly well.

It seems as if you are making this more difficult than necessary. You should be able to lay the stock gears over top of the aftermarket gears and make an indication of stock timing, then using a protractor, score lines for every degree of retardation. The difficult part would come in tuning it, but an hour with a dyno and some adjusting and you should be able to get it adjusted fairly well.

That will tell you how many degrees the cams are advanced or retarded, yes.

It will not tell you at what position the crank/piston are at when the valves are opening or closing. That's why you need the degree wheel on the crank, a piston stop and the dial indicator on the valves.

Lot more to degreeing cams than just the cams themselves. You should read the link that he posted. It explains a lot. There are no shortcuts in doing this.

That will tell you how many degrees the cams are advanced or retarded, yes.

It will not tell you at what position the crank/piston are at when the valves are opening or closing. That's why you need the degree wheel on the crank, a piston stop and the dial indicator on the valves.

Lot more to degreeing cams than just the cams themselves. You should read the link that he posted. It explains a lot. There are no shortcuts in doing this.

Isn't the end goal just more power at a certain RPM? You shouldn't need to truly degree camshafts to achieve this goal, just have them adjusted to the best position, which you should be able to do with time and a dyno.

Isn't the end goal just more power at a certain RPM? You shouldn't need to truly degree camshafts to achieve this goal, just have them adjusted to the best position, which you should be able to do with time and a dyno.

:doh:

Sure, that's it!

We all just waste our time doing it the "old" way.

Carry on.

That is a great idea marking the cams. I am glad you mentioned that. I will definitely do that. It will be very helpful to see how much I change the cam position. And I will be able to return to that position later.

My goal here is to not only figure out the best position for the gears. Yes that is when the dyno comes in. But also the process of learning how to measure the lobe centerline.

At this point I can't even get accurate readings. I have the tools and they are good. But the amount of movement is very very slight. It is frustration level doing a twin cam engine. My only experience is with car engines. They put the intake and exhaust on the same cam. So it is easy. And two stroke port timing is also fairly streight forward.
I am trying to make it as uncomplicated as I can. But I am really having a struggle.

Thanks for all the input. I need to get this clear in my head. And a really need to get this right. Other people have invested time and money in my project. I feel a strong obligation to make it right.

:doh:

Sure, that's it!

We all just waste our time doing it the "old" way.

Carry on.

:imsorry:
I certianlly wasn't trying to be a dick, I guess I just see things from a different perspective. If knowing the actual timing is important to you then by all means figure it out, but personally I don't care about what it is, I just want it to be the best possible.

:imsorry:
I certianlly wasn't trying to be a dick, I guess I just see things from a different perspective. If knowing the actual timing is important to you then by all means figure it out, but personally I don't care about what it is, I just want it to be the best possible.

For reference, BEET details that their cams are best at lobe centers of 100 both on EX and IN. It's in their specs.

I marked the cams. The gears are hard. My center punch just bounced off. First push tossed a spark. I'm guessing that was the point. Now it just leaves a smudge. O well

I used a dremmel and made five marks.
The long center Mark is the stock position. The two ends are the max position. And the ones between are , well in between. So now I am going to go back and find the stock lobe center.

Valves are adjusted now also.

Do I read this as 95 or 85?

Ok, what cam is this for (intake or exhaust) and is it opening or closing? That will give you your answer as to how you read it.

According to an FSM I found for stock cams:

Intake Open 36 BTDC, Close 56 ABDC
Exhaust Open 61 BBDC, Close 31 ATDC

If you are degreeing a stock cam, your wheel is way off.

Stock intake lobe center should be 100 degrees.

Stock exhaust lobe center should be 105.

If I don't have the right stock cam numbers, please correct me and I'll re-do my math.

Ok, what cam is this for (intake or exhaust) and is it opening or closing? That will give you your answer as to how you read it.

I can't remember now.

According to an FSM I found for stock cams:

Intake Open 36 BTDC, Close 56 ABDC
Exhaust Open 61 BBDC, Close 31 ATDC

If you are degreeing a stock cam, your wheel is way off.

Stock intake lobe center should be 100 degrees.

Stock exhaust lobe center should be 105.

If I don't have the right stock cam numbers, please correct me and I'll re-do my math.

I am getting intake 98.5
Exhaust 106.5.
That is pretty close. The next step will be to figure out what to do now.
I did the exhaust side. It will adjust from 101.5 to 111.5 . Give or take 1 or 2.

I think if I remove just a little bit of the cam cap I can get a better aim at the valve shim bucket.

I am getting intake 98.5
Exhaust 106.5.
That is pretty close. The next step will be to figure out what to do now.
I did the exhaust side. It will adjust from 101.5 to 111.5 . Give or take 1 or 2.

I think if I remove just a little bit of the cam cap I can get a better aim at the valve shim bucket.

If you're using the cams with 31,000 miles on them, this is probably why your numbers are off a degree and a half either way.

Question is, what do you want to do with your power? This will dictate which way you adjust the cams. More up top? More down low?

Perform the same process with the Web Cams using their numbers for a proper install, now that you understand the process.

Retarding the cams should give you more top end.

Since you're land speed record setting, I'd start with 2-4 degrees of retard on each cam and see where that gets you.

Might run a little rough down low...but you won't be there long.

Also, retarding means you want the higher end of the scale, opening and closing later. IE, 106.5 is the center, you want 110-111 degrees.

Retarding the cams should give you more top end.

Since you're land speed record setting, I'd start with 2-4 degrees of retard on each cam and see where that gets you.

For top end you also want a little more overlap, so you might want to retard the exhaust farther than the intake.

I am getting intake 98.5
Exhaust 106.5.
That is pretty close. The next step will be to figure out what to do now.
I did the exhaust side. It will adjust from 101.5 to 111.5 . Give or take 1 or 2.

I think if I remove just a little bit of the cam cap I can get a better aim at the valve shim bucket.

What you actually need is the proper attachment/lever for your dial indicator so you can reach into those spaces. They are roughly $30. I would recommend you get one before you go further...it will ease your headaches somewhat.

CDI30 might work well...

http://www.dialindicator.com/accessory_attachments.php

Thank you so much for the help. I think it is more the cam chain the the cams themselves. They look pretty good. But the valve seats also change things. I'll post up a photo of what I'm using to get in the small space. It seems to matter that I always use the same setup and get the motion of te indicator in the same line with the valve.

Yes for land speed I only want top end power. Even a couple hundred RPM on top end makes a difference.

My plan is to set up this stock engine. Next month April 27- May 1 I will be in Ohio. I will run the 282cc engine with nitrous . If it goes well I will then swap in the Stock 250 engine and run it. See how that goes. Then hit that with a light shot of nitrous. The clutch and valve springs can't handle a 30 shot. But I want to see how that all goes. Then use what I learn to set up my 250cc engine on the Project X engine.

You should be able to lay the stock gears over top of the aftermarket gears and make an indication of stock timing, then using a protractor, score lines for every degree of retardation.

Ppfffffttt!!! A protractor!?!? :rotflmao:

I've never done this. This is beyond my experience. But a protractor? Good grief man.

Carry on.
https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=18672402

Thank you so much for the help. I think it is more the cam chain the the cams themselves. They look pretty good. But the valve seats also change things. I'll post up a photo of what I'm using to get in the small space. It seems to matter that I always use the same setup and get the motion of te indicator in the same line with the valve.

Yes for land speed I only want top end power. Even a couple hundred RPM on top end makes a difference.

My plan is to set up this stock engine. Next month April 27- May 1 I will be in Ohio. I will run the 282cc engine with nitrous . If it goes well I will then swap in the Stock 250 engine and run it. See how that goes. Then hit that with a light shot of nitrous. The clutch and valve springs can't handle a 30 shot. But I want to see how that all goes. Then use what I learn to set up my 250cc engine on the Project X engine.

You're welcome, FWIW.

I have a hard time with text...much easier to do hands on and explain as I go.

Why waste so much time on the timing ? just use a hard set for maximum early opening.
Do the following with NO cam chain & NO cams. You can combine this with a plug piston stop.

Measure the maximum lift availabe if you think tyhe cams may be reaching close to maximum lift, by lifting a valve as far as it will go with the piston at BDC.

Then decide how much clearance you want as a minimum when the valve starts to open BTDC on the intake valve. To find this, set an intake valve to 2mm lift (1mm for Japanese manufacturers Vavle timing & 1mm piston clearance, you can adjust this number) turn engine by hand very slowly until contact is made with the piston. From your degree gauge note this as the MAXIMUM intake valve opening point BTDC. For maximum high rpm power you want this.

The cam lobe will determine the closing point & as you have the numbers from the cam maker, just adjust based on your opening point determined above.

So you only really need to work on the exhaust cam timing & again valve closing ATDC is determined by clearance at or BTDC, so the max lift & 2mm lift rule above will let you work that out. This sets the MAXIMUM ATDC closing of the exhaust valve, again the lobe numbers deterime the opening point. This in effect determines the maximum overlap you can achieve.

You can now work on adjusting the overlap safely & the advance/retard of the cams on the dyno to get the best power numbers.

YMMV ;)

Ppfffffttt!!! A protractor!?!? :rotflmao:

I've never done this. This is beyond my experience. But a protractor? Good grief man.

Carry on.
https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=18672402

Protractor- a tool to measure angles. How else are you going to measure angles.

Why waste so much time on the timing ? just use a hard set for maximum early opening.
Do the following with NO cam chain & NO cams. You can combine this with a plug piston stop.

Measure the maximum lift availabe if you think tyhe cams may be reaching close to maximum lift, by lifting a valve as far as it will go with the piston at BDC.

Then decide how much clearance you want as a minimum when the valve starts to open BTDC on the intake valve. To find this, set an intake valve to 2mm lift (1mm for Japanese manufacturers Vavle timing & 1mm piston clearance, you can adjust this number) turn engine by hand very slowly until contact is made with the piston. From your degree gauge note this as the MAXIMUM intake valve opening point BTDC. For maximum high rpm power you want this.

The cam lobe will determine the closing point & as you have the numbers from the cam maker, just adjust based on your opening point determined above.

So you only really need to work on the exhaust cam timing & again valve closing ATDC is determined by clearance at or BTDC, so the max lift & 2mm lift rule above will let you work that out. This sets the MAXIMUM ATDC closing of the exhaust valve, again the lobe numbers deterime the opening point. This in effect determines the maximum overlap you can achieve.

You can now work on adjusting the overlap safely & the advance/retard of the cams on the dyno to get the best power numbers.

YMMV ;)

I'm sorry but you lost me with this.
I am only trying to adjust the cams to make max power at high RPM. I have done a lot of engine modification with the 250 ninja. Most of what I have done gives me more torque or a broad midrange increase. I have been told to widen the lobe separation. This is what I am trying to do. And not just for this engine.

I am confused enough, but slowly making progress using the adjustable sprockets. My dyno availability is very limited. And very expensive at this point.

I have to do everything at home. Make an appointment . Go the the dyno. I get a couple pulls . They measure the horsepower and torque . And give me the Air fuel ratio. That cost 122 dollars and takes about an hour. Then I can go home and make adjustments.
I wish I could pull the valve cover and adjust things then go again. But there insurance won't allow me to work on the bike in the shop. They will let me pull plugs or carb jets. But pulling the bike apart is pushing it. It's a big dealership. Plus they are very busy.

Ok, what cam is this for (intake or exhaust) and is it opening or closing? That will give you your answer as to how you read it.

I get the near 90 deg reading on the exhaust cam closing. I went back to the web cam method of measuring.

Eric for one word.
More important than AFR is the measurement of the CO coming out of the exhaust.
And to do this right you should (must) measure each cylinder separate - then you really know what's going on.
Then get this and do your own dyno http://atom007.heimat.eu/tmt/gsf_dyno.html
Or as an alternative this: http://virtualdyno.net/
or this: http://www.ddisoftware.com/ttdyno/

Become more independent of others, you're doing so many things so why don't do all easy possible steps by yourself?

Protractor- a tool to measure angles. How else are you going to measure angles.

That's the equivalent of using a ruler to measure if your pistons are 0.010" out of round... Use precision tools for precision work. I'm not being critical of Eric, because he's the man and knows his stuff. I'm being critical of your suggestion at how easy this is, Ryan. If it were as easy as you make it sound, he'd have been doing this for years already.

I'd try to get it set up on the 4th axis of our plasma cutter (stepper motor for rotating pipe to cut tube profiles) and use machinist bars as a guide to score lines in the outer face at even intervals.

The other option I've been thinking about: you know how many teeth are on the sprocket (40? 38? just guessing from only seeing 1/4 of the gear)
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40063&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1459195814
Therefore you know an easy interval of degrees you can mark around the gear. That's a place to start for intervals, he's got the equipment to set up the "0".

I've been trying to think of ways to set up a jam bolt temporarily to make very fine changes in between the cam and shaft, but nothing simple is coming to mind that won't get in the way upon assembly.

That's the equivalent of using a ruler to measure if your pistons are 0.010" out of round... Use precision tools for precision work. I'm not being critical of Eric, because he's the man and knows his stuff. I'm being critical of your suggestion at how easy this is, Ryan. If it were as easy as you make it sound, he'd have been doing this for years already.

I would argue otherwise. In engineering classes the only tools to measure we used were a compass, a protractor, a calculator, and some formulas. They make really nice accurate protractors.

Everything I know might not be right, but I know common practice for changing cam timing it to find out how much one tooth of a cam gear changes, lope the bolts .5 degrees less than that, and mark every degree of the lope. You then slide the bolts on the lope until you hit the other side, then you skip a tooth and start on the other side of the lope.

Does that accomplish Eric's goal? I guess not, I don't know what Eric's goal is, but if he said that it will not accomplish it, then I'm sure it won't. I just wanted to respectfully offer my :2cents: but I don't know everything, and I fully support him to do whatever route he wants to accomplish anything he wants to do. To me what he was doing seemed like using calipers to measure chain slack, but he probbably knows more about four stroke motors that I do (most my knowledge is either passed down from my grandfather, or based off of the studies I did on two strokes and my schooling on fluid dynamics), so it makes sense that some of you see how I was in the wrong.

Eric for one word.
More important than AFR is the measurement of the CO coming out of the exhaust.
And to do this right you should (must) measure each cylinder separate - then you really know what's going on.
Then get this and do your own dyno http://atom007.heimat.eu/tmt/gsf_dyno.html
Or as an alternative this: http://virtualdyno.net/
or this: http://www.ddisoftware.com/ttdyno/

Become more independent of others, you're doing so many things so why don't do all easy possible steps by yourself?

Thanks for the suggestion.
First off my computer skills are sorely lacking. Second I don't have any type of data logging. I use the go pro and record the dash at the track.
I can only run the bike at the track. I cant get 0-60 times.
There is no OBD2 connector on my bike.

The dyno uses a single pick up. I had a dual exhaust set up. But now I am using a 2-1 exhaust. I do have independent exhaust gas temp. But that is all I have to work with. Also my money situation is very bad. I retired and moved. So I am dead broke and only work part time for minimum wage while I remodel my new house. But I do appreciate all the suggestions.

HoneyBadgerRy, we're OT. I'll PM you later when I get the chance.

Sorry, Eric.

I went back and set the adjustable sprocket from one extream to the other . I measured each side and measured each individual mark between. I got 115 on one side and 112 or 113 everyplace else?? Not only are these not the numbers I am looking for they don't seem to change. I must be doing somthing wrong. I used both methods described in the text. Addin and subtracting and all that.

I discovered in my reading an dial indicator that makes more sense to me.

I went back and moved the cam pull from one extream to the other again. Marking with tape the position of maximum open. This is what I got. It seems to me all I need to do is set the max open position to the number I am looking for.
I.E. 105 for stock

I set the exhaust cam to the stock position. With the valve at max lift. The dial reads 105. Is that the lobe center I am looking for?

I set the exhaust cam to the stock position. With the valve at max lift. The dial reads 105. Is that the lobe center I am looking for?

Lobe center of a stock cam is 105, yes.

Looks like you're figuring it out.

Thanks for the suggestion.
First off my computer skills are sorely lacking. Second I don't have any type of data logging. I use the go pro and record the dash at the track.
I can only run the bike at the track. I cant get 0-60 times.
There is no OBD2 connector on my bike.

The dyno uses a single pick up. I had a dual exhaust set up. But now I am using a 2-1 exhaust. I do have independent exhaust gas temp. But that is all I have to work with. Also my money situation is very bad. I retired and moved. So I am dead broke and only work part time for minimum wage while I remodel my new house. But I do appreciate all the suggestions.

EGT's can tell you a lot. If your dyno guy is worth his salt, he can tune your bike with a sniffer in the pipe while it's on the dyno, combined with EGT monitoring.

.

He is not. I have to do the tuning. That is not a problem. The problem has been adding and subtracting numbers to get what I found the easy way.

He is not. I have to do the tuning. That is not a problem. The problem has been adding and subtracting numbers to get what I found the easy way.

Ick. Dyno guy here is 175 for a PowerCommander or Carburetor tune. Guy is magic. He looks at the AFR map and says....drop main X sizes, raise needle X notches, pilot screw out another turn.

Bam. Done. He doesn't quit until it's perfect. Doesn't matter if it takes 15 minutes or two hours. If he can't get it right, he won't charge you full price.

Sounds like we're spoiled out here on the Wet Coast.

I think part of your problem is your indicator set up. I think the right angle adapter will really help....remember also that 1.5 crank degrees is 0.75 cam degrees. That's small!!

Lastly, were your measurements done with the valves checked and adjusted properly? I would assume so but it doesn't hurt to ask. That should be done first since it will affect measurements.

It's a Harly Dealer.
I have years of tuning experience. I can change jets really quick. And adjust the ignition system with a custom map. I use the EGT to tune and monitor the nitrous
I have no problem doing that. I was doing it befor the dyno guy was born. But pulling the tank and valve cover to adjust cams is more than I can do in the dyno room.

I am getting consistent readings with my set up. I will get a better one. I had no problem setting the dial indicator up and finding max lift and the open and close events. It was just the adding and subtracting using the formulas in the links. Why do they want to add the number then subtract it?

It's a Harly Dealer.
I have years of tuning experience. I can change jets really quick. And adjust the ignition system with a custom map. I use the EGT to tune and monitor the nitrous
I have no problem doing that. I was doing it befor the dyno guy was born. But pulling the tank and valve cover to adjust cams is more than I can do in the dyno room.

I am getting consistent readings with my set up. I will get a better one. I had no problem setting the dial indicator up and finding max lift and the open and close events. It was just the adding and subtracting using the formulas in the links. Why do they want to add the number then subtract it?

Sometimes I do not ask why. The why is not always important. Things that ARE is important.

Web cams paper does things....hinky. Use the PDF you linked to. Much simpler.

Also, if the pointer of your indicator is not exactly in line with the valve, this will throw off your measurements.

Ok I'll go back and try again and see if I can make improvements thanks.

Find a race shop to do your dyno work, they can adjust cams or a friendly one will let you. My race shop would NOT let me adjust a fuel map :( so I don't use them other than for power comparison runs.

Since I am lacking the tools to properly measure the valve movement and I don't have time or money at this stage. I need to do something. The engine I have been fooling with is a stock 250. I am just using it to figure out how to do the cam timing properly. And I guess that has been a total success. Even though I can't do it properly. At least I know it. So that is a start.
I am ready to run the 282 engine and it is tested on the dyno and the timing and jetting are close enough for me to adjust when I know the late April weather in Ohio.
This 250 is a back up motor for that weekend.
Using just the degree wheel. I measured max lift of the stock cams and there position. I then adjusted the sprocket cam pulley. I set te intake to 105 the exhaust at 111. I guess I will see how that runs. Ither on the track or the dyno when I get back. In the mean time I will figure out the tool situation. Then buy more tools.

I really appreciate everyone's input and help with this.
Thanks guys

Find a race shop to do your dyno work, they can adjust cams or a friendly one will let you. My race shop would NOT let me adjust a fuel map :( so I don't use them other than for power comparison runs.

There are only two dyno shops in Iowa near me. Both are the same dealership. One is very close one is a little farther. They will not have the tools. When you tell a race shop you are working with a 250 ninja they sorta glaze over and say. Well we never worked on one before.

If I have to I can ship the engine to Texas and have a friend do it. But he won't have the carbs or ignition system to do anything. I can't afford to haul the bike 2000 miles.

I know the feeling, good shops are hard to find :( Good luck

Update on this issue.
I have my bike on the street now and ride to work every day. Lots of fun. The engine is a stock 2010 engine with 30,000 mile. It has an 88-94 ignition box. Custom dual exhaust. Stock carb with pod filters.

The only real mod is the cam timing. I moved the lobes apart about 4 deg. I'll have to go back and read this thread to see what I did. But basicly the engine runs great. Really nice. Idle is 900-1000 rpm. Shifting g is good and the power on top feels really smooth out past 13000. I have not dynoed it or anything but it fells smooth and pulls all the way to the te limit in fifth gear. I can ask for much more.