Hi everyone,

I have a 2000 250. Here's my story

I was just puttering around town yesterday (speeds of only 30-40 mph). My idle was holding around 1400 at stoplights and generally the bike was running smoothly. When I stopped at the next stoplight, I applied the brakes and pulled in the clutch to downshift. As soon as I pulled in the clutch, the bike died.

tl;dr - bike died at a stoplight after engaging clutch.

Key in "On" Position - here's what I know.

1 - Headlight (hi/low beam) will not work
2 - Starter button does not work
3 - Battery is completely charged
4 - ~3/4 tank fresh gas
5 - Neutral light and Oil light are on when key is turned "On"

Any ideas? I'm checking fuses when I get home today. Someone alleviate my concerns a tell me it's not the starter :p

Please let me know if I've left out anything of importance.

when you got it started again was the idle lower than the usual 1400? Did you have to use choke or was it ok idel without?

:welcome: hope someone can help you out here.

Thanks for the welcome.

@ Cali - I haven't gotten it started again. The starter won't work.

Thanks

Ah ok, didnt know it was not firing up, just thought it was dying when idle.

Yep. It was firing up just fine for the past couple weeks. It would warm up and run with no choke etc. It just up and died at a light yesterday and will not start now.

I maybe way off but have you checked the battery terminals for loose connection or corrosion?

check your clutch switch and see if it broken/shorted. it disables the bike from starting when it is in gear unless the clutch lever is pulled in.

kelly you beat me to it

it started happening to me after about 10k miles on my 06.
it was really more of an issue when the weather got cold. the problem would stop after the bike was fully warmed up.

basically everything i've read about the subject points to carbs and valves needing to be adjusted and/or just let the bike fully warm up before riding.


Edit: nevermind i just replied to the original post which didn't really say anything about the bike not being able to start up after it died. as far as that goes i have no idea mate.
time to bust out the trusty digital multi meter and start testing the wires for voltage to find out where the system is losing power

and check to see if your kickstand safety switch is not broken or that your kickstand is all the way up.

it started happening to me after about 10k miles on my 06.
it was really more of an issue when the weather got cold. the problem would stop after the bike was fully warmed up.

basically everything i've read about the subject points to carbs and valves needing to be adjusted and/or just let the bike fully warm up before riding.


Edit: nevermind i just replied to the original post which didn't really say anything about the bike not being able to start up after it died. as far as that goes i have no idea mate.

But OP is saying it won't even crank now Drew. I think LilOne and Kelly are headed in the right direction with the interlocks.

Wow thanks for all the responses.

@ BlueRaven - I checked them yesterday, they looked good, but I'll check them again today. Can't hurt to double check.

@ kkim - Thanks for the advice. The bike won't start regardless of first gear/neutral and the clutch pulled in. I'll give it a look when I get home today.

@ IlB - I wanted to avoid pulling the carbs again :p. However, if I can't find an electrical problem that will be my next step. Thanks

@ Blue - I'll throw the kickstand switch into my electrical lookover today.

Thanks again for all the quick responses. I'll update this thread later today regardless of what I find.

yeah i see that now. i just started my reply before anyone else had posted and got distracted for a while before i finished and pressed post ;)

Drew - been there done that. Hate it when the boss walks into the office before you've finished your post.

Wow thanks for all the responses.


@ IlB - I wanted to avoid pulling the carbs again :p. However, if I can't find an electrical problem that will be my next step. Thanks
.

dude don't listen to what i said, i thought you were just stalling out at the light. your problem is definitely electrical don't bother with the carbs.

Excellent. Stricken from the record.

On an unrelated note, excellent community. Very responsive :D

Thinking from an electronic technician's point of view....... check to see if the engine kill switch and it's wiring is working right. Switches can go bad w/o notice or maybe a wire broke internally or came lose from a connection. Just a thought.

I just reread the first post and the lights would be still working if it was a killswitch problem so it has to be an electrical problem beginning from the battery. I'm just throwing things out there.

I just reread the first post and the lights would be still working if it was a killswitch problem so it has to be an electrical problem beginning from the battery. I'm just throwing things out there.

Hmmm, true, didn't take that into account.

@ kkim - Thanks for the advice. The bike won't start regardless of first gear/neutral and the clutch pulled in. I'll give it a look when I get home today.

does the neutral light up when in neutral? not sure how the switch for the first gear/neutral works, but try and check that... also as BR suggested, check your kickstand switch, too.

you have a PM.

Ok so in the 45 minutes I've done the following:

1 - Went to see if the bike would start without doing anything. Turned petcock on, killswitch off, kickstand up. The neutral and oil lights were on and the headlight worked on both high and low settings. The bike fired right up and maintained a steady neutral.

2 - Used the kill switch. It worked no problem and the bike started right back up.

3 - Rode a couple of laps around the neighborhood, pulled back into my driveway and put the bike into neutral. It struggled to maintain idle and gradually (over the course of 30 - 45 seconds) died. It would not start back up.

4 - I turned the kill switch on (would've killed the bike had it been running) then waited 10 seconds, then flipped it back to off. The bike started again, maintained idle in neutral for 15 seconds then gradually died again.

5 - Repeated the first part of #4. Rode another lap around the neighborhood. There was no issue as long as throttle was applied. Had to do rolling stops to keep the bike from dying. As soon as the clutch was pulled in, the tach would drop and there would be a varying idle b/w 1.5 and 3.0 I'd say.

6 - Pulled back into driveway and the bike died slowly again. Repeated #4 a few more times with the same results.

7 - Throughout all of this the neutral light would come on when in neutral and the headlight stayed on and the high beam indicator light worked as well as the actual high beam.

8 - I am able to start/run the bike with the sidestand down; I thought this was normal. I can also start the bike without the clutch pulled in. The connections to the clutch and kill switches passed a brief visual inspection.

Based on all of this I'm not sure what type of electrical problem it could be. It seems almost like the bike is starved for fuel when idling. Choke does not help though.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll continue to update as a check things out/rule issues out.

When you can get the bike running what is the Tach doing in comparison to speed and what you "normally" expect?

There is an issue on 2008 and 2009 with this I C Ignitor (makes spark, makes gas go boom) that "might" have a bearing but just tossing that out there.

Link for more info: http://www.kawiforums.com/showthread.php?t=106196&highlight=ignitor

bad fuel?

what OG says is true about the ignitor, but at this point it sounds like you have a fuel delivery problem. Can you give some background on the bike? Has it been standing for long... used everyday...

another issue could be a blocked gas cap vent. if the bike seems not to start or runs ratty, try popping the gas cap open and see if it runs better.

last idea, check that the choke cable is adjusted properly at the carbs.

if all these fail, it sounds like you might have some gunked up carbs... try draining the float bowls and see if crap comes out.

OG - After I get the bike running the tach sticks until I rev the throttle a couple of times. Other than that, the RPMs look pretty good for the speeds I've been hitting around the neighborhood (up to 35 MPH).

Blue - I'll drain the old fuel when I get a chance. I haven't had a problem with this particular station in the past but s happens right? :)

Kkim - I purchased the bike used from a guy at the end of March. He had the carbs cleaned, oil changed, and about a half tank of fuel in the bike (receipts for maintenance as well). I ran it once for a half hour or so every 2 to 3 days in April and the same so far in May (just got my license at the end of April).

I'll give the carbs a look tomorrow or Wednesday. Too many other projects on my plate at this point.

On a semi-related note: Can anyone recommend a good motorcycle mechanic in/around the Arlington, VA area? IDC if it's a shop or an individual, but would like some references.

Thanks again for all the help.

kkim has way more knowledge than me. I'm just more familiar with the big rigs

Interesting. Was this your first ride on the bike? If not....had you noticed any weird symptoms prior to this ride?

4 - I turned the kill switch on (would've killed the bike had it been running) then waited 10 seconds, then flipped it back to off. The bike started again, maintained idle in neutral for 15 seconds then gradually died again.

You had your killswitch on "off" while you were riding....and starting the bike? Is that a typo or were you actually doing this?

This definitely sounds electrical...could be that your idle problems are caused by a lack of spark perhaps. Have you pulled the plugs? Pull the plugs and check the colour. If they look weird take pictures and post 'em here :thumbup:

It might be worthwhile to have a gander at the wiring diagram. From your original post....the fact that the headlights and starter button wouldn't work, but the neutral/warning lights were on tells me that you have a very specific electrical problem somewhere. Maybe a cold solder joint or what have you. If the ignition coils are on that same circuit then the problem is definitely there.

Let me bust out the wiring diagram and have a peek.

This wasn't my first ride, but the idle had been funky before. I used some seafoam and the played with the idle control valve and got a steady idle out of it.

What I meant with the killswitch "off" is that it was in the position that I could start my bike. Sorry for the confusion. The killswitch seems to work as it should. I'll pull the plugs and take pictures as soon as I can. I'll spend some time at work going over the wiring diagram tomorrow.

Thanks again

try draining your carb bowls. sounds like your pilot jets are getting clogged with crap. do they sell gas with alcohol in it in your area? that's a real problem if you let the gas sit for long periods of time.


http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Draining_the_carbs

What I meant with the killswitch "off" is that it was in the position that I could start my bike. Sorry for the confusion. The killswitch seems to work as it should. I'll pull the plugs and take pictures as soon as I can. I'll spend some time at work going over the wiring diagram tomorrow.

Oh i figured as much...i just wanted to double check! :thumbup:

I looked at the diagram and couldn't seem to narrow it down to anything. Maybe you'll have better luck as you know the symptoms better than I do. Good luck!

I used some seafoam and the played with the idle control valve and got a steady idle out of it.

Kelly - if he had a bad load of fuel, or there was crap in the tank couldn't the seafoam have broken it lose and is now in the bowls/jets?

well, the crap can be in the bowls from a multitude of things... him just getting the bike, no telling how long the fuel was in there previously.

...which is the reason I'm advising to drain the bowls so he can see if there is crap in there. If you do drain the bowls, catch the gas in a container so you can see if any dirt/gunk comes out.

The off/on, erratic idling is almost a dead give away it's a fuel problem.

have you checked the choke cable adjustment for proper slack at the carbs?

Kelly - I'll check the choke cable and drain the bowls tonight or tomorrow afternoon. I'll update this thread as I complete those.

Thanks for all the help. :)

let's get the bike running first. :p

Wednesday night update:

Drained carbs, gas that came out had no dirt in it that I could see. Here's what I did from there:

1. Turned petcock to "On" position and turned the key to the "On" position.
2. Kickstand up, clutch lever in, and no response from the starter button. Once again, neutral and oil lights were lit up, starter just had no response.
3. Flipped the killswitch on and off a couple of times and let the bike sit about 1 minute.
4. Starter works this time! Takes a couple of cranks, but as soon as there was fuel in the carbs it actually cranked right up (used full choke to start).
5. Let it run a minute, then decreased choke all the way.
6. Bike runs for ~5 minutes. I then turn the key to "Off." I wanted to see if this would produce any different reaction than the killswitch.
7. The answer is no :(. I have to wait another 30 seconds or so before the starter will respond again.
8. After the starter responds, the bikes starts right up. Maintains a steady idle around 1800 (higher than usual, but I'd rather the bike run and fix the idle than the bike not run).
9. Allow the bike to run another 5 minutes. By this time the temperature guage is reading above halfway.
10. Cut bike off with killswitch, attempt restart. Again have to wait 30 seconds for the starter to respond.
11. Bike starts, maintains idle, then back again to the slowly dying over the course of 30-45 seconds.

Essentially I'm back at square 1, but may have also discovered some type of electrical gremlin (starter not responding right away).

Any suggestions on where to go from here? Full carb cleaning? Shop? I don't really want to take it to a shop, but it's been beautiful here and I'm getting antsy :).

Thanks again!

I agree... at this point sounds like an electrical problem. sticky starter relay, perhaps or a bad starter solenoid?

starter circuit...

http://faq.ninja250.org/images/thumb/e/e1/Start_corr.jpg/794px-Start_corr.jpg

more schematics...
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Wiring_schematics_%26_diagrams

you have a PM.

In the 30 second delay before the starter responds, is everything else working? Neutral/oil pressure light, headlights, dash lights, etc?

I hate electrical problems. Hang in there! You'll come out of this knowing a hell of a lot more than you did going in.

Flash - everything else is working as it should (neutral/oil lights, headlights, tail lights, turn signals, etc.)

You're right though, this is the reason I bought an older bike I could work on. I didn't anticipate becoming obsessed with riding so soon though :P.

Anyone know a good shop in the Arlington, VA area?

EDIT: Talked to a friend of mine regarding a reputable motorcycle mechanic. He explained my issues and the mechanic seems to think I need a carb synching most of all.

EDIT: Talked to a friend of mine regarding a reputable motorcycle mechanic. He explained my issues and the mechanic seems to think I need a carb synching most of all.

I would really be surprised if the issues you are having are solved by a carb sync. :rolleyes:

As would I, but the guy said he'll do it for free. Can't hurt, plus maybe the guy can diagnose the actual issue when he sees the bike. :). Think positive thoughts :P

okay. :tinfoil3:

Flash - everything else is working as it should (neutral/oil lights, headlights, tail lights, turn signals, etc.)

You're right though, this is the reason I bought an older bike I could work on. I didn't anticipate becoming obsessed with riding so soon though :P.


LOL yea me too...sorta. I almost went with the CBR250RR grey import bike for that very reason but decided against it for practicality purposes. Thank goodness too because not being able to ride due to maintenance downtime has become surprisingly annoying :D

Yes, maintenance downtime is the bane of my existence.

Semi-update: Carbs are all pulled and electrical system checked out. All wiring looks good; carbs being finished tonight or tomorrow night. Will update when I get any news back.

Alright, we need an FML smiley.

So as posted above, my bike has been sitting in a friend's garage for 1.5 weeks or so. He pulled the carbs, gave em a little cleaning, but overall they looked good. He checked out the electrical system, looked good. Then he took the bike on a ride Sunday. He had to walk it home. Checked oil last night, and sure enough there's coolant in the oil.

Here are my options as I see them:

1. Service Dept 1 wants $94 to diagnose the issue (1 Labor Hour), and if it is a head gasket (99% sure at this point) it'll be ~5 hrs labor plus parts (~$600 post taxes etc.).

2. Service Dept 2 wants 600-700 bones for the same issue.

3. Wait about 5 weeks for the guy who's house it's at to do it. Probably like $500.

4. Buy a new motor. Where do I buy used mc motors? Would salvage yards have them? How much do used 250 motors run? My buddy can drop the new engine in sometime next week.

5. Sell the bike as is. Put an ad up for a used 250 with head gasket issues, take the hit, and buy another bike. I think I'm going to throw an ad up on CL just to see what I could get for it.

I'm open to other suggestions. I don't believe I'm mechanically inclined enough with motorcycles to do this work myself, not to mention a lack of tools.

Thanks for all the help. Tyler

:(

:(

Understatement of the year :D

Salvage yards would definitely have them, and the motor has been so similar for so many years that one shouldn't be too hard to track down. I would expect you to be able to pick up an entire motor for much less than the prices you have been quoted to work on the existing one, but then the labor to get a new motor in will probably be equally pricey (+ the cost of the new motor).

If you don't want to deal with it, selling it as is will get you some $ that you can use to start saving for one in better condition, and you can probably find a pre-gen in decent condition from $1800 - $2200 now pretty easily. If you want to go the replacement motor route, the only way it makes sense is if you (or you and a helpful friend) work on it together to get the bike back in a running state. Maybe at the end of that process you could pay a shop to look things over for an hour or paid labor to make sure you didn't miss anything safety-critical. Good luck!

Salvage yards would definitely have them, and the motor has been so similar for so many years that one shouldn't be too hard to track down. I would expect you to be able to pick up an entire motor for much less than the prices you have been quoted to work on the existing one, but then the labor to get a new motor in will probably be equally pricey (+ the cost of the new motor).

If you don't want to deal with it, selling it as is will get you some $ that you can use to start saving for one in better condition, and you can probably find a pre-gen in decent condition from $1800 - $2200 now pretty easily. If you want to go the replacement motor route, the only way it makes sense is if you (or you and a helpful friend) work on it together to get the bike back in a running state. Maybe at the end of that process you could pay a shop to look things over for an hour or paid labor to make sure you didn't miss anything safety-critical. Good luck!

Thanks Alex. If I were to go the new motor route I have two helpful friends that offered up their time/tools. I'm going to start looking for motors tomorrow and probably throw the bike up on CL just to see what people would offer.

At least it's diagnosed, right? Haha. I'll update this thread either way.

Tyler

Tyler - you might also find a salvage bike pretty cheap somewhere - if they didn't part it out - then you could sell the leftover bits on ebay or CL...
good luck - and sorry to hear the news was so bad

For some reason I thought he had an 08 since like just about everyone on here has one. lol Thanks for pointing that out to me alex.

I still think it might cost more to do an engine swap then get it fixed at the prices you were quoted. But that's just my opinion.

He's got a pre-gen (2000) already, and he'd be looking for another pre-gen motor.

Semi-update. Found a motor (~5,000 miles) I'm going to look at this weekend. Hasn't been used in two months; guy is parting his bike out. I'd be able to drop the new one in at little cost (yay friends) in the next couple of weeks.

As the bike is not in running condition, is it appropriate to write up some type of contract language saying: [Seller name] guarantees this motor to be in working order as of [date]. [Seller name] agrees to refund [sale price] as verified by attached bill of sale in the event motor is not in working order. [Seller name] is not responsible for any damage caused during transport, installation, or other buyer negligence. etc.

Obviously I was burned by the bike, just seeing if I can get a little safety net. Also that's just a rough draft. If you see anything I should add/remove, let me know. I don't know motor buying etiquette. I figure if he's telling the truth he should have no issue signing a document like that.

Thanks,

Tyler

As the bike is not in running condition...

why is the bike not in running condition? is the seller saying the motor runs? why is he parting it out?

You might also consider getting a compression test done on that motor. I'm not sure what the compression numbers are supposed to be for a healthy motor, but I'm sure a half decent mechanic should have a rough idea.

I'm sorry about your luck with the bike. I hope things turn around for you!

Mini update:

Picked up the motor today. Looks good :). Apparently the guy dropped the 250 and decided to part out as opposed to repairing it. He said it started right up pre and post accident. He was willing to sign a statement the motor is in working condition and will refund my money if it isn't.

Compression test will be done by my friend pre-install. Motor should be in by this weekend. I'll continue updating.

By far the most helpful forums I've been a part of - thanks.

wish you luck.

btw, does the guy have more of the bike to part out? you may want to tell him about ninjette and have him post up his bike in the classifieds to help get rid of the remains. :)

kkim - only had the radiator left.
--------------------------------

So my friend who's been doing the work on my bike got back into town last night. I was supposed to drop the new motor off tonight, but couldn't due to traffic + prior obligations. Then I got a call from him; he was speaking to a friend of his who used to own a 250, and the dude had an extra head laying around. They installed it tonight and took turns riding the bike. The bike idled fine, took the highway fine, ran for ~1.5 hours, etc. I'm going tomorrow to pick it up and possibly propose marriage to my friend. I couldn't wait any more.

I'll keep the new motor for a week or two just to make sure I don't need it, then I'll throw it on Craigslist/classifieds here.

tl;dr: My bike works again. Eff yea :D

Thanks again for all the help here. You ladies/gentlemen are fantastic.

That's great news, Tyler! :thumbup:

When's the wedding? :D

kkim - well I'm in VA, so it'd have to be a destination wedding to the northeast I think. invites to come haha.
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Update: Picked the bike up last night. Rode it home on the highway with no issues. Have carb diaphragms in the mail right now. The idle is still rough, and when sitting at stoplights I have to adjust the idle screw. However, this should be taken care of when the new carb parts are installed. After that, should be smooth sailing.

Drove it to work this morning. I've never had that much fun on my morning commute.

All in all, I don't regret the bike purchase:

Ninja - 1,500
Misc Parts and labor - 250
Total 1,750 for a nicely running bike. Can't really beat that, although it would have been nice to ride it this entire time.

Fantastic! I'm glad things worked out pretty well in the end for you. Consider this a learning experience....now go enjoy yourself! :thumbup: