What is the best way to get 300 tuned for the most power and the best gas mileage?

Thank you.

most power AND best gas milage? leave it stock

most power AND best gas milage? leave it stock

Stock is just boring, I am sure that the ignition timing could be adjusted for power improvement and fuel can be trimmed in the cruise zone.

Stock is just boring.

sounds like user-error.

Welcome Dima!

Leaving it stock is a valid plan, but lets rephrase your question to something we can actually answer. If you find putting around stock "boring", then is it safe to assume you want a bit more pep? Are you willing to accept a little less mileage for a performance level that make you happy? Should your question be? "Where is the happy middle between mileage and performance on the 300?"

Also, how hard you ride it will have a large effect on your mileage, but I am sure you know that. Many 250 racers only get around 35mpg. :rolleyes:

If it was a trike, I'd get your point, but srsly?

Welcome Dima!

Leaving it stock is a valid plan, but lets rephrase your question to something we can actually answer. If you find putting around stock "boring", then is it safe to assume you want a bit more pep? Are you willing to accept a little less mileage for a performance level that make you happy? Should your question be? "Where is the happy middle between mileage and performance on the 300?"

Also, how hard you ride it will have a large effect on your mileage, but I am sure you know that. Many 250 racers only get around 35mpg. :rolleyes:

i think i average closer to 30mpg :/ but thats with full exh and tune

What is the best way to get 300 tuned for the most power and the best gas mileage?

Thank you.

Rob Muzzy

Welcome Dima!

Leaving it stock is a valid plan, but lets rephrase your question to something we can actually answer. If you find putting around stock "boring", then is it safe to assume you want a bit more pep? Are you willing to accept a little less mileage for a performance level that make you happy? Should your question be? "Where is the happy middle between mileage and performance on the 300?"

Also, how hard you ride it will have a large effect on your mileage, but I am sure you know that. Many 250 racers only get around 35mpg. :rolleyes:

Let me rephrase my question. I'd like to gain at least 20% better gas mileage while commuting over stock. I figured since liter bikes get 40 mpg, getting 70 mpg out of a 300cc engine would be possible without streamlining the bodywork. Maybe with few mods like engine management system, maybe some engine work like decking the head, velocity porting the head, maybe even a turbo.

Let me rephrase my question. I'd like to gain at least 20% better gas mileage while commuting over stock. I figured since liter bikes get 40 mpg, getting 70 mpg out of a 300cc engine would be possible without streamlining the bodywork. Maybe with few mods like engine management system, maybe some engine work like decking the head, velocity porting the head, maybe even a turbo.

Welcome, Dima.

20% better gas mileage is really ambitious...

Maybe you could put on a bigger front sprocket, a smaller rear sprocket, and only ride on the freeway. In a tuck. When it's warm out. And accelerate really slowly...

Welcome, Dima.

20% better gas mileage is really ambitious...

Maybe you could put on a bigger front sprocket, a smaller rear sprocket, and only ride on the freeway. In a tuck. When it's warm out. And accelerate really slowly...

Gearing would be adjusted to the power output, if I can get more power out of it in lower rpms, I'll be able to put a bigger front sprocket, and lessen the friction loses along with pumping losses in the engine, improving its efficiency.

i don't think you are fully grasping the relationship between power and gas consumption...

more power = more gas consumption.

if you want more power and better gas consumption, simply buy a second bike that is very powerful. now you have power, and you have a bike that has good gas consumption... 70mpg is fairly ambitious without proper streamlining IMO, unless you want to cripple the bike.

liter bikes only get 40mpg when you have the throttle closed... try going fast on a literbike, you will quickly see that mpg drop like a brick

Talk to greenaero for fuel mileage tips; he can get well into the triple-digits (mpg, not mph) on his specially modified pre-gen. But I don't think you're going to like the advice, much of which revolves around riding by using the minimum amount of power necessary, as opposed to your second goal of having it feel like it has more power.

I have an ’03 Ninja 250 that I get 59 mpg just riding around (stop & go, freeway, combined regular riding). If I ride it 5000 miles per year, that’s just under 85 gallons of gas per year. At $3 per gallon, it’ll cost me $254 per year.

If I do stuff to the bike (and/or my riding technique) and manage to average 70 mpg, riding 5000 miles per year, will consume 71.4 gallons of gas per year. At $3 per gallon, it’ll cost me $214 per year.

I gotta ask: is it worth fiddling around, buying parts, and very likely adversely affecting the rideability of the bike to save $40 per year?


Disclaimer: The guy I bought my bike from had slightly taller sprocketing on the Ninjette when I bought it. I was happy with what he selected and when I replaced the sprockets and chain, I kept his sprocket sizes. Also, when I ride all freeway, I actually get 69 mpg.

i don't think you are fully grasping the relationship between power and gas consumption...

more power = more gas consumption.

if you want more power and better gas consumption, simply buy a second bike that is very powerful. now you have power, and you have a bike that has good gas consumption... 70mpg is fairly ambitious without proper streamlining IMO, unless you want to cripple the bike.

liter bikes only get 40mpg when you have the throttle closed... try going fast on a literbike, you will quickly see that mpg drop like a brick

By making the engine more efficient, you can gain power and fuel consumption. I own a liter bike that I managed to get 50mpg out of while trapping 150+mph in a 1/4 mile with few mods, so I got more power and better gas mileage at the same time.

I want to have a bike that is very practical and efficient and I think a 300 or maybe even 250 ( converted to efi) would make a perfect platform for something like that, plus I'd like to see what mods will make the biggest difference. Stock ecu will probably be first thing to go, then gearing, maybe forced induction or engine work.

I have an ’03 Ninja 250 that I get 59 mpg just riding around (stop & go, freeway, combined regular riding). If I ride it 5000 miles per year, that’s just under 85 gallons of gas per year. At $3 per gallon, it’ll cost me $254 per year.

If I do stuff to the bike (and/or my riding technique) and manage to average 70 mpg, riding 5000 miles per year, will consume 71.4 gallons of gas per year. At $3 per gallon, it’ll cost me $214 per year.

I gotta ask: is it worth fiddling around, buying parts, and very likely adversely affecting the rideability of the bike to save $40 per year?


Disclaimer: The guy I bought my bike from had slightly taller sprocketing on the Ninjette when I bought it. I was happy with what he selected and when I replaced the sprockets and chain, I kept his sprocket sizes. Also, when I ride all freeway, I actually get 69 mpg.

Is it worth fiddling around, buying parts and adversely affecting the rideability of the bike to make it go .1 of a second quicker on a road course/drag strip while not saving anything at all? For some people it is all worth it. It's kind a the same concept, except in the opposite direction lol.

By making the engine more efficient, you can gain power and fuel consumption. I own a liter bike that I managed to get 50mpg out of while trapping 150+mph in a 1/4 mile with few mods, so I got more power and better gas mileage at the same time.

That is a bold claim. I'm interested. Can you tell us a little bit more about it?

That is a bold claim. I'm interested. Can you tell us a little bit more about it?

Sure, what do you want to know?

wiseco makes really shiny pistons

From the known engine numbers the 300 engine should have enough potential to tune, i.e.
- higher cr, up to 10 degrees advanced ignition and not to forget a better ecu-mapping.

.......... I managed to get 50mpg out of while trapping 150+mph in a 1/4 mile with few mods, so I got more power and better gas mileage at the same time.


Not at the very same time. :)

As you may know, friction and aerodynamic drag grows as exponentially with speed as fuel consumption does with explosive accelerations.

These two members can tell you about the two extremes of the power/efficiency spectrum of the Ninja 250:

Racer x

greenaero

Not at the very same time. :)

As you may know, friction and aerodynamic drag grows as exponentially with speed as fuel consumption does with explosive accelerations.

These two members can tell you about the two extremes of the power/efficiency spectrum of the Ninja 250:

Racer x

greenaero

Of course not at the same time lol.

As the others have correctly stated your goals will generally be in conflict with each other. The only ways to get better fuel economy ( FE)while not sacrificing acceleration and top speed would be through 1) improving engine efficiency ( difficult, complicated and expensive), 2) reducing rolling resistance ( bearings, tires, chain, brakes) , 3) reducing aerodynamic drag( the biggest mechanical factor ) and 4)using fuel-efficient riding techniques.

1)Advancing the ignition timing may give a small gain in FE at low speeds but would cause detonation and pre-ignition problems at high speeds. Unless you can have easily adjustable engine timing it's a dead end. Running the lowest viscosity synthetic oils that are safe for the moto or any other changes that reduce engine friction would work. Modifying camshft timing and valve spring resistances would work but only at one end of the spectrum.

2) Run high tire pressures, I run mine at maximum rated sidewall pressure. Radial tires would be better if we could get them in our tire sizes. Keep your chain perfectly adjustted and lubed. NOn-O-ring chains supposed offer less resistance. Minimize disk brake drag. Ceramic wheel bearings offer less rolling resistance but are more fragile than conventional wheel bearings.

3) Reducing aerodynamic drag offers you some big gains in FE without reducing sport riding potential. The more complete your streamlining is , the bigger the gain. You would also be limiting your gains if you don't use taller gearing to fully take advantage of the reduced air drag. For your purposes I would suggest an aero windscreen and a removable aerotrunk like I run on my
Silveraero project moto. I average around 90 mpg with it and a best tankfill of 111 mpg. It does have tall gearing ( 15/37 ), but you still would see a significant improvement in FE.

4) Using optimal riding techniques will allow you to get the best FE out of any moto. For the best FE it's all about using every drop of fuel to go as far as is possible. Limit stopping, braking and idling as much as posssible, use moderate acceleration to your target cruising speed and maintain it with the smallest throttle opening, if you see a slow down or stop coming up get off the the throttle and coast as much as possible. Air drag increases with speed by the cube so that if you double your speed you need 8 (2x2x2) times the power to do it. The most efficient crusing speed is 45 to 55 mph.

Electronic M , what you are after is not impossible , just challenging. Compromise is doable but for me its more satisfying to go all out in one direction or the other. Early on in my riding I loved speed and racing but found I lacked the resource$ and motivation to keep pursuing it. Racing is extremely competitive and already loaded with talented, exceptional riders. I chose a different, less traveled path and have found great success and satisfaction with it. Good luck with your quest and keep us posted with your efforts.

As the others have correctly stated your goals will generally be in conflict with each other. The only ways to get better fuel economy ( FE)while not sacrificing acceleration and top speed would be through 1) improving engine efficiency ( difficult, complicated and expensive), 2) reducing rolling resistance ( bearings, tires, chain, brakes) , 3) reducing aerodynamic drag( the biggest mechanical factor ) and 4)using fuel-efficient riding techniques.

1)Advancing the ignition timing may give a small gain in FE at low speeds but would cause detonation and pre-ignition problems at high speeds. Unless you can have easily adjustable engine timing it's a dead end. Running the lowest viscosity synthetic oils that are safe for the moto or any other changes that reduce engine friction would work. Modifying camshft timing and valve spring resistances would work but only at one end of the spectrum.

2) Run high tire pressures, I run mine at maximum rated sidewall pressure. Radial tires would be better if we could get them in our tire sizes. Keep your chain perfectly adjustted and lubed. NOn-O-ring chains supposed offer less resistance. Minimize disk brake drag. Ceramic wheel bearings offer less rolling resistance but are more fragile than conventional wheel bearings.

3) Reducing aerodynamic drag offers you some big gains in FE without reducing sport riding potential. The more complete your streamlining is , the bigger the gain. You would also be limiting your gains if you don't use taller gearing to fully take advantage of the reduced air drag. For your purposes I would suggest an aero windscreen and a removable aerotrunk like I run on my
Silveraero project moto. I average around 90 mpg with it and a best tankfill of 111 mpg. It does have tall gearing ( 15/37 ), but you still would see a significant improvement in FE.

4) Using optimal riding techniques will allow you to get the best FE out of any moto. For the best FE it's all about using every drop of fuel to go as far as is possible. Limit stopping, braking and idling as much as posssible, use moderate acceleration to your target cruising speed and maintain it with the smallest throttle opening, if you see a slow down or stop coming up get off the the throttle and coast as much as possible. Air drag increases with speed by the cube so that if you double your speed you need 8 (2x2x2) times the power to do it. The most efficient crusing speed is 45 to 55 mph.

Electronic M , what you are after is not impossible , just challenging. Compromise is doable but for me its more satisfying to go all out in one direction or the other. Early on in my riding I loved speed and racing but found I lacked the resource$ and motivation to keep pursuing it. Racing is extremely competitive and already loaded with talented, exceptional riders. I chose a different, less traveled path and have found great success and satisfaction with it. Good luck with your quest and keep us posted with your efforts.

Thanks for your advices.
1) I am planning to adjust a/f mixture and ignition timing to gain more power and better fe by leaning the mixture out at cruise ( I am sure it's not optimal from the factory) and I'll be able to push it to its limit with a closed loop ego control, I was able to improve fe by more than 20% on my bigger bike and I didn't even come close to pushing a/f mixture to a 16.5 ratio. With a better engine control I am hoping to get the best bang for the buck without going into the engine. I will also run 10w30 synthetic after I get some data from a regular oil, if there is an improvement, I will stick to it.

2) I will keep my tire pressure bellow maximum for safety reasons, I am sure I'll be able to have better gains going from 30 psi to 40psi than 40psi to 50psi, I will also monitor tire temperature while I am at it. I have also ran non o ring chain before with great success, I was able to shave a .1second with it at the track, but for street they're not very dirt friendly, so I'll just stick to o ring type of chain, even though there are gains to be had. Ceramic bearings are waaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive and don't offer much of a gain imo.

3) I will keep aero mods to the minimum, at least at first. There are good gains to be had, especially at speeds over 45mph, but most of my commute is around 45mph so I'll keep that for the future mods after everything is done. Gearing will be one of the first mods, it's cheap, and offer gains and easily put back to stock if i decide to bracket race the bike.............don't ask me why hahahahaha.

4)Riding technique is where most gains are at imo. I'll put a mpg or mph gauge on the bike and monitor where its the most efficient rpm and throttle angle and will adjust my riding there.

Racing is a lot of fun, but does cost a lot of money, especially if you want to stay at the very top lol.

And if it was easy and not challenging................everybody would be doing it and it would be boring. I'd rather set my goals high and aim for the sky.

How about a new set of sticky tires. As narrow as possible (yet still safe) in hopes of having better traction than OEM tires, yet less friction due to the narrow tire?

Feasible?

Just a random thought.

How about a new set of sticky tires. As narrow as possible (yet still safe) in hopes of having better traction than OEM tires, yet less friction due to the narrow tire?

Feasible?

Just a random thought.

Sticky tires will have higher rolling resistance and lower frontal area, one is bad and the other is good. Plus they won't last long, not going to work.

Dima, Glad you found my tips helpful.
1. Optimizing your A/F ratios will definitely work particularly at the lower end of the RPM range where the best FE is found. If you have the ability to analyze the A/F ratio and reprogram your FI moto that would work very well.
2. Correct, most the FE gains are there as you run over 32psi.
3. here is the link to my aerotrunk project
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=153413
I'm running a much longer windscreen than in the pictures. If you are willing to install taller gearing you will see some big gains. Of course it will decrease your acceleration ppotential.
4. Yes! I don't know of any digital mpg gauge for motos like the automobile versions ( Scangauge or Ultragauge). You could use a vacuum gauge but really it's all about staying at the lower end of your moto's torque curve and riding in the tallest gear it can handle without lugging.

Dima, Glad you found my tips helpful.
1. Optimizing your A/F ratios will definitely work particularly at the lower end of the RPM range where the best FE is found. If you have the ability to analyze the A/F ratio and reprogram your FI moto that would work very well.
2. Correct, most the FE gains are there as you run over 32psi.
3. here is the link to my aerotrunk project
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=153413
I'm running a much longer windscreen than in the pictures. If you are willing to install taller gearing you will see some big gains. Of course it will decrease your acceleration ppotential.
4. Yes! I don't know of any digital mpg gauge for motos like the automobile versions ( Scangauge or Ultragauge). You could use a vacuum gauge but really it's all about staying at the lower end of your moto's torque curve and riding in the tallest gear it can handle without lugging.

I was able to go from 40mpg to 55mpg with nothing more than proper ecu with ego control and 1 up on the front sprocket on a liter bike. I don't see getting 80+mpg on a 300cc engine, probably 90+mpg on a 250cc engine with just ecu and taller gearing.

And I could build a gallons per hour gauge if I really wanted to, or I could use the software in the ecu that will display mpg via tablet.

Btw I was reading around and 300cc and 250cc engines share a lot of parts, I could just put efi throttle bodies and all the sensors from a 300cc onto 250cc, use 300cc wiring harness and build a stand alone ecu for that. I figured I won't be using factory ecu in a first place, I might as well start with an older 250, and convert it to efi.

Almost forgot, Vic how are you managing your engine fuel and ignition timing?

Stock carburetors and stock timing, my motos are 250 pregens. I've been thinking about getting a newer FI moto for FE competitions, probably a Honda CBR250R, but i"ve been disappointed in the stock FE performance of the Honda and Ninja 300 compared to my pre-gens. You were able to reporgram your ECU, how involved was it? I can definitely see the potential for FI motos as long as it was something fairly simple and inexpensive to modify for optimal fuel economy.

I believe our bikes run slightly lean from the factory. Which means it is already optimized for the most MPG, You can tune it to run faster but you're going to sacrifice some of those MPG.

Personally, I think that stock the bike runs fairly well, although I wouldn't mind sacrificing a couple mpg for a couple horses (I have a slip on). I consistently get 60-70mpg and that's when I ride it like I stole it.

Stock carburetors and stock timing, my motos are 250 pregens. I've been thinking about getting a newer FI moto for FE competitions, probably a Honda CBR250R, but i"ve been disappointed in the stock FE performance of the Honda and Ninja 300 compared to my pre-gens. You were able to reporgram your ECU, how involved was it? I can definitely see the potential for FI motos as long as it was something fairly simple and inexpensive to modify for optimal fuel economy.

I ended up using megasquirt stand alone ecu instead of messing with stock computer, basically if I was going to say it in gun terms................instead of trying to reverse engineer .22 pistol, I went and got an ak47:rotflmao:

The amount of things you can do with it is pretty amazing imo, I can just name a few things that you can adjust like, cold start enrichment, warm up enrichment, ego control via wide band or narrow band O2 sensor, you can dial in PID control, basically how quickly you want the ecu to get to your afr target, you can run any injector, any air temp/coolant temp/map sensor/baro sensor that you want and it will adjust to the conditions unlike carbs. You can also adjust the angle that injector is going to spray the fuel into the engine, full adjustment of the fuel and ignition map, set your rev limit to whatever you want, it can control nitrous/air shifter/quick shifter, can also install a knock sensor and flex fuel sensor......................and many many other things, it can also datalog all the data to your smart phone, or tablet, or laptop. The amount of control is unreal.......perfect for diy kind a people. I've been running that ecu on my 998cc bike and it has been great. I've built few of them for other bikes as well, been pretty happy with it. I think it will work great on a 250/300cc engine.

http://youtu.be/vPkUIMfOSjA

Here's a video that I put together right after I installed the ecu on my bike and took it to the local dragstrip to do some tuning.:dancecool:

http://youtu.be/tUWkFqiEDpc

Here is a turbo bike with the ecu that I've built, that one is kind a fast:bow:

Dima, after reading your last posts my guess was to recommend the megasquirt ecu to you :rotflmao:
Glad I didn't until you came up with it by yourself :thumbup:

Dima, after reading your last posts my guess was to recommend the megasquirt ecu to you :rotflmao:
Glad I didn't until you came up with it by yourself :thumbup:

There isn't anything on the market for bikes besides power commander, and I haven't had much luck with those. Factory ecu flashes are pretty limited as well. I wonder what 250/300 would be like with a stand alone megasquirt, you can convert a 250 to efi with it or improve 300 with it that's already efi.

Do you know what the guys in Indonesia use when they tune their 250 with turbo and reach 69 hp?
I'm sure you do - the megasquirt.
And everybody who's going with the very limited stock ecu is struggling...
You're on the right way, nothing more to say :clapping:

Why would you use an ecu that can't comprehend what boost is on a boosted engine? Might as well stick with carburetors lol.

Do you know what the guys in Indonesia use when they tune their 250 with turbo and reach 69 hp?
I'm sure you do - the megasquirt.
And everybody who's going with the very limited stock ecu is struggling...
You're on the right way, nothing more to say :clapping:

Roland, once again, you have unveiled another secret to me... could you please share more info ? I don't have the slightest idea what this is ! i guees it is some kind of programmable ECU but some links or pics and technical data provided would be great, if possible of course...

Megasquirt is a universal ecu, it was made to convert carbed engines to efi on a budget, since then they advanced to the point where oem efi ecus are being converted to megasquirt. There are megasquirt 1, 2, and 3, along with a microsquirt v3, and ms3pro that just came out which is amazing. You get to decide which one you want to use, you can buy one that is already built, or you can buy parts and build one yourself.


My biggest question is if I should build one for a 300 that's already efi, or should I go with older 250 that will need to be converted to efi first ( which is pretty affordable) and then megasquirt it. That is the question lol.

lets go over the history of this thread... because it's rather comical IMO.

OP: quick question, how to get more mpg and more power?

others: wat

OP: <splurge a bunch of crap about what was asked and how op already knows everything but still asking questions op answered themself>

others: uhh

OP: ?!!!!!!!


no offense dima. but you are asking very specific question it seems you already know the answers to. wondering why ask the questions in the first place? when you already know the answers?

the latest question resolves down to how much effort and money you want to put in. literally nobody can answer this but you.

Megasquirt is a universal ecu, it was made to convert carbed engines to efi on a budget, since then they advanced to the point where oem efi ecus are being converted to megasquirt. There are megasquirt 1, 2, and 3, along with a microsquirt v3, and ms3pro that just came out which is amazing. You get to decide which one you want to use, you can buy one that is already built, or you can buy parts and build one yourself.


My biggest question is if I should build one for a 300 that's already efi, or should I go with older 250 that will need to be converted to efi first ( which is pretty affordable) and then megasquirt it. That is the question lol.

Ok, just went through the whole thread just to find out that you had posted the answers.... anyway...cheapest way is to use the 250 EFi stock ecu which has higher rev limit, more advanced ignition timing compared to 300's but of course using that megasquirt thing would be far better....

however Alex has a point...you seem to know much more about that stuff than most of us already so it seems odd you ask for our opinion... :confused20:

micoulisninja, Nick let me add to that what Electronic M said, just as a side-information, when BMW came with their turbo engine for the Formula 1 the innovation was not the engine with the turbocharger by itself (many people don't know that each of those engines they used as base for the race-engines had run already minimum 100000 km's), no the real innovation was a so-called blackbox including the digital controlsystem for injection and ignition.
So to make it better understandable, a stock ecu for what we look for and talk about for what we want is middle age, the megasquirt is future and when one is doing real serious and successful tuning there is no point to go without the megasquirt ecu.
And to make my point about this thread, when one is calling himself 'Electronic' then there must be a reason for this and when he's asking about best power with best gas mileage then there must be more reason behind...
And now my answer to the starting question: Yes, it's possible to have more power with better gas mileage - not only unless you use the more power all the time...
As example I just take a BMW injection engine from the 70s with 3000cc and 200hp with a gas usage from up to 20 liters per 100 km and then look at the BMW engine from today with up to 400 hp they take only up to 15 liters per 100 km - not to talk about the Diesel engines.
All you need is to set up all the engine parameters and this can not be done with a stock ecu and just forget the Power Commander in this case, since this is not more than a toy to make a little gain but more than that make money for the seller - the answer is: MEGASQUIRT :thumbup:
The same I said about the PC can be said about Takai-Coils and the so on also, or does anybody think it makes a difference if you light up benzine with a match or a lighter?
The electronics nowadays make nearly everything possible, just think about the future of ignition systems: in Germany they test it with laser now.
If one is really interested in what's going on in the automotive business - it's still Germany one has to look for.

I have a areaP tuner and exhaust... Won't do timing though, I think only the bazzaz tuner does that at this moment

If I ever switch to running an FI moto I know where to go for some advice :thumbup:

If I ever switch to running an FI moto I know where to go for some advice :thumbup:

Vic please let me say one thing, even when carbs are not the worst case, but nowadays they're nearly to compare with stone age-technology.
But the performance you're showing with them in your challenge needs to be honoured with the highest respect. :clapping:
And when you change to FI I'm sure in Electronic M you find the best man to support you, when you go with megasquirt.

All you need is to set up all the engine parameters

While I do agree with most of what you said, this is one area that I do take issue with. While there is certainly much to be gained in terms of tightly controlling the combustion events in an engine, there are significant differences between a modern vehicle and an antiquated design with modern controls.

You can certainly improve the efficiency of said BMW example with a powerful ecu and associated sensors, but everything about the vehicles design influences its efficiency.

Everything from the moment the air approaches the vehicle, aerodynamics, weight, rolling resistance, airflow patterns in and out of the engine, engine design, metallurgy, fuel system design and fuel system pressure, and on and on and on and on

Advancements have been made in all aspects of automotive design that allow for efficiency and power. Throwing an ecu at a vehicle that's R&D was done in a time that these improvements were unknown will not result in those improvements manifesting. A powerful ecu will simply allow you far better control of what you have.

While I do agree with most of what you said, this is one area that I do take issue with. While there is certainly much to be gained in terms of tightly controlling the combustion events in an engine, there are significant differences between a modern vehicle and an antiquated design with modern controls.

You can certainly improve the efficiency of said BMW example with a powerful ecu and associated sensors, but everything about the vehicles design influences its efficiency.

Everything from the moment the air approaches the vehicle, aerodynamics, weight, rolling resistance, airflow patterns in and out of the engine, engine design, metallurgy, fuel system design and fuel system pressure, and on and on and on and on

Advancements have been made in all aspects of automotive design that allow for efficiency and power. Throwing an ecu at a vehicle that's R&D was done in a time that these improvements were unknown will not result in those improvements manifesting. A powerful ecu will simply allow you far better control of what you have.

Thx Neil - yes you're right, at least like in most cases its the result of the whole package which gives you the greatest success.

You need a turbo, and this squirt thing

hahaha, I was driving on i24 east in Tennessee with crazy elevation change due to 6% grade and I couldn't stop but to think, man I would love to see 2 250r there, one with carbs and one with megasquirt, to see which one would make it up the hill:rotflmao:

they're 250s. neither make it up the hill! badumpsh

Anyone can make it up the hill in a first gear. If I can make it up Seattle hills, you can make it anywhere.

hahaha, I was driving on i24 east in Tennessee with crazy elevation change due to 6% grade and I couldn't stop but to think, man I would love to see 2 250r there, one with carbs and one with megasquirt, to see which one would make it up the hill:rotflmao:

very few can realize the huge gap between the two because very few have experience with both...the adapting of the FI is waaay better compared to carbs when changing altitude rapidly...and if I can feel a huge improvement of a PC V equipped FI over stock, then with that megathing I guess I would go ...squirting uphill :rotflmao:
so the point is not if you can make it to somewhere but how efficiently (either in terms of speed, engine operating quality or fuel consumption)

very few can realize the huge gap between the two because very few have experience with both...the adapting of the FI is waaay better compared to carbs when changing altitude rapidly...and if I can feel a huge improvement of a PC V equipped FI over stock, then with that megathing I guess I would go ...squirting uphill :rotflmao:
so the point is not if you can make it to somewhere but how efficiently (either in terms of speed, engine operating quality or fuel consumption)

I was just saying it would be a good spot to compare carbs, factory efi, and stand alone ecu. The difference would clearly be seen by the max speed and fuel consumption between the three. I am not sure about 300 factory efi system, but on the older bikes, factory ecu was barely better than the carbs, the ram air compensation, altitude adjustment and air temp adjustments aren't good at all. With the bazzaz that I used to run, every week I'd have to constantly adjust the amount of fuel depending on weather conditions, and it would be off by a good margin. Stock ecu was good for the average street bike, but if you wanted to get the most out of it, it needed constant tuning.

but on the older bikes, factory ecu was barely better than the carbs, the ram air compensation, altitude adjustment and air temp adjustments aren't good at all.

250.... ram air?

250 tops out at like... 105mph.... ram air has like.... zero effect below that speed.

Electronic M, maybe you also should take a look in the following link, since this seems to be the ultimative ecu-replacement http://shop.durbahn.de/shop/en/products/MOTEC_-_Steuerger%C3%A4te/Motec_ECU
...not looking for the price :rotflmao:

Electronic M, maybe you also should take a look in the following link, since this seems to be the ultimative ecu-replacement http://shop.durbahn.de/shop/en/products/MOTEC_-_Steuerger%C3%A4te/Motec_ECU
...not looking for the price :rotflmao:

Motec is a great ecu, but I don't see anybody spending more money for the ecu, than what they paid for the bike. The ecu is just an overkill. Doing something right doesn't mean overdoing it. Microsquirt does plenty and then more, it runs circles around power commander, bazzaz, and ecu flash:dancecool: The firmware gets updated multiple times a year, and the updates are based on the users wants and needs. You can buy a built ecu, or you can buy the parts, you can also communicate with the ecu via bluetooth, add more inputs/outputs, it caters to diy users, a lot more than motec and many other stand alone ecus.