I seen this elsewhere, and found it interesting. Check it out.


Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it
would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that?s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ?Since you are all such good customers,? he said, ?I?m going to reduce the cost of your daily beers by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.?
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But
what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ?fair share??
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted
that from everybody?s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man?s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued
to drink for free, but once outside the restaurant, the men began to
compare their savings.
I only got a dollar out of the $20, declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, but he got $10! Yeah, thats right, exclaimed the fifth man. I only saved a dollar, too.
Its unfair that he got TEN times more than I, Thats true!! shouted
the seventh man. Why should he get $10 back when I got only two?
The wealthy get all the breaks!? Wait a minute, yelled the first four men in unison. We didnt get anything at all. The system exploits the
poor!
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didnt show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something very important.they didnt have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes DO get the most benefit from a tax reduction. They also PAY more than the rest. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Turn the FOX news channel off...

Sorry anarcho, I didnt know anarchist had a political slant.

Republican, Democrat...B.S., no...But I aint some punk kid with a mohawk listening to punk rock music, if thats what u think....

Allow me to explain to you why this is misleading. Actually, instead of retyping this, I'm just going to copy / paste from an old snowboardingforum.com post.



If he meant what I think he meant then the figure is pretty accurate. Except that the percentage that pay 0 or negative income tax is higher.

A quick google search gave me these numbers:


%37 pay 0 or negative income tax
%42 of taxpayers pay higher payroll tax(FICA) than income tax
%74 of taxpayers pay higher payroll tax than income tax if you include the portion paid by the employer as part of that figure, which it technically should be.


(payroll tax is about %15 btw)

I am assuming what he is pointing out is that since A LOT of FICA isnt really used for social security/medicare, the majority of that should be reclassified as income tax. Especially since FICA is capped for earners who make over 100K. So the real percentage paid to government for any type of tax for the middle class is actually quite a bit higher than for the wealthy. Obama and McCain when they talk about tax increases / cuts are only talking about income tax.





Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
So let me see if I understand this correctly.

Income tax: is just that the federal withholding on wages.


Correct, for the largest tax bracket ($31,850-$77,100) You pay $4,386.25 plus 25% of the amount over 31,850



Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
Payroll tax: the total amount of money deducted from a paycheck to include federal withholding, FICA and Medicare?


Payroll tax is SS/Medicare only. You pay half, your employer pays the other half.

I'm going to use John Doe for example. John Doe makes 50K and works in a livery in NY.

For John Doe, the federal income tax would come to about 17.8% of his salary before adjustment/credits.

Payroll tax is 15.3% of John's salary. John pays 7.65% of it and his employer pays the other half. (Effectively means the cost to have John work at Dirty Meat Livery is 7.65% more)

So here is a breakdown of what John makes.

$50,000 (+$3500 the livery pays for John towards SocSec/Medicare also known as FICA)

-$8500 (17%) Federal Income Tax
-$3000 (6%) Social Security
-$700 (1.4%) Medicare
-$2500 (5%) NYS Income Tax
-$10 (Few Cents) NYS Unemployment Insurance / Disability Insurance

So all said and done. We add that together.

$14700 (29.42%) John pays to the Man
$12200 (24.4%) Of that is going to the Federal Government alone.

No lets just look at what John is paying to the Federal Government.

$8500 - Federal Income Tax
$7400 - Payroll Tax (John pays 3700, the Livery pays the other half)

At the end of the year, if John's rebate ends up being $1200, he falls in the category of those paying more for SS/Medicare than Federal Income.
__________________


Now let's try something else.

John will work till he is 65. Let's say his lifetime salary average will be 60K. He started working when he was 18.

65-18 = 47 years contributing to FICA
At %15.30 (half unseen to John), that's $9180 a year.

47 x 9180 = $431460

John than retired at 65 and starts drawing $1200/month out of SS until he dies at 80.
He withdraws 216K total befire eating dirt.

Since FICA is capped for those over 100K and isn't really used for Social Security / Medicare. What the Federal Government is saying is that its OK for the middle class to support the poor and withering, but not OK for the uber-wealthy to support the middle class. With one hand they make it seem as though they are taking more money from them with the higher tax brackets and the other gives it right back because FICA is capped.
__________________

yea. this thread is going to get ugly really fast.

Sorry anarcho, I didnt know anarchist had a political slant.
The anarchist have good and bad points .There problem seem to be in there leadership.

Awh money...the root of all controversy after religion..

I hate money.

Awh money...the root of all controversy after religion..

I hate money.

can I have yours?I cant find mine.

yea. this thread is going to get ugly really fast.

:whathesaid:

can I have yours?I cant find mine.

I still need it sorry.:D

On a lighter note, I'll be the comical relief for all you my American friends!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLfm6XKtRHI

Turn the FOX news channel off...

The public isn't supposed to know the truth, be able to think for themselves, or have a voice. Now get back there with the rest of the sheep.

:alien:

Tax and Spend, Baby!

Okay after that smart ass remark I have to state one thing.

Deminishing Marginal Returns! It's an economic law that almost never fails.

The richer you are the less utility you recieve per additional dollar. So it only makes sence to tax the people who will recieve less utility for that dollar paid in taxes.

I'll make it simple... If Joe has $1 and you give him 1 extra dollar he is 100% better off. If Jane has $2 and you give her that same extra dollar she is only 50% better off. If Mike has $10 and you give him that extra dollar, he is only 10% better off. And if Bill has $1,000 and you give him that same additional dollar he is only 0.1% better off.

If you look at the entire utility of a nation as the sum of all it's citizen's utility, it only makes sence to put money in the pockets of those who will receive the most marginal utility from the transaction.

Rich assholes who complain about being taxed are actually only loosing about the same utility as those who are taxed less. That's why in the Bible it makes it clear that it it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.

People who complain about a graded tax scale are nothing but a bunch of greedy selfish pricks!

Don't take me wrong, I still have a lot of friends who are pricks. No offense intended.

Tax and Spend, Baby!

Okay after that smart ass remark I have to state one thing.

Deminishing Marginal Returns! It's an economic law that almost never fails.

The richer you are the less utility you recieve per additional dollar. So it only makes sence to tax the people who will recieve less utility for that dollar paid in taxes.

I'll make it simple... If Joe has $1 and you give him 1 extra dollar he is 100% better off. If Jane has $2 and you give her that same extra dollar she is only 50% better off. If Mike has $10 and you give him that extra dollar, he is only 10% better off. And if Bill has $1,000 and you give him that same additional dollar he is only 0.1% better off.

If you look at the entire utility of a nation as the sum of all it's citizen's utility, it only makes sence to put money in the pockets of those who will receive the most marginal utility from the transaction.

Rich assholes who complain about being taxed are actually only loosing about the same utility as those who are taxed less. That's why in the Bible it makes it clear that it it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.

People who complain about a graded tax scale are nothing but a bunch of greedy selfish pricks!

Don't take me wrong, I still have a lot of friends who are pricks. No offense intended.

You make alot of sense. This is the same as someone getting a ticket for speeding. 200$ can be ravaging for someone who live paycheck to paycheck and its nothing to somebody making 40 K+. Same crime, but the poorer is the one really punished. Now if everybody would pay the same tax..who would be the losers now? Taxing the richer makes sense...because we all know, they won't spend all their earning.

Turn the FOX news channel off...

Amen

Wait until you start having to pay an extra carbon tax for your bike! It is going to hurt.

The public isn't supposed to know the truth, be able to think for themselves, or have a voice. Now get back there with the rest of the sheep.

Sometimes I think life would be easier, if I was able 2 just drink the kool-aid and go along with the B.S.....But there's something in my blood that doesnt let me, I cant bend over and buy into the nonsense...

Rich assholes who complain about being taxed are actually only loosing about the same utility as those who are taxed less. Wow, talk about complete BS! :rolleyes:

You make alot of sense. This is the same as someone getting a ticket for speeding. 200$ can be ravaging for someone who live paycheck to paycheck and its nothing to somebody making 40 K+. Same crime, but the poorer is the one really punished. Now if everybody would pay the same tax..who would be the losers now? Taxing the richer makes sense...because we all know, they won't spend all their earning.So let me get this straight... Because I have worked very hard to achieve my position and my well deserved rate of pay, and because I choose to save some of my money, I should be required to pay more for services than you do?

Even if the system was better designed with a flat tax rate, the person making $40k per year would be paying significantly less than the person making $500k.

Sometimes I think life would be easier, if I was able 2 just drink the kool-aid and go along with the B.S.....But there's something in my blood that doesnt let me, I cant bend over and buy into the nonsense...So when someone complains about paying high taxes, you accuse them of watching Fox (like that's a bad thing). And you don't think you're drinking any kool-aid?

If you watch and believe what Fox News tells you without knowing that it is a bad thing, you have bigger problems to worry about to worry about than tax structure.

Go get your head examined.

Wow, talk about complete BS! :rolleyes:

Have you ever taken a university class above the 100 level in Economics or Finance? If you don't understand the concept of deminising marginal returns, what idiot made the decision to pay you $500,000 a year... o wait, you must work for Fox News.

:smash2:

My cat just barfed on the rug.

Even if the system was better designed with a flat tax rate, the person making $40k per year would be paying significantly less than the person making $500k.

This country is founded on the principle that the value of one man's life is not greater than that of any another. Does a man who makes $500k as a banker work 10 times as hard a man in construction making $50k? You're prepared to judge the value of a man's life by his earnings? Without a graded scale, where do you set the tax rate? 10k/yr would not be enough money and what if I only make 20k/yr? I am going to pay half to the government and then I never have the opportunity to accumulate wealth and reinvest it to perhaps increase my earnings and pay more into the system in the future.

If you read my post above you'll see that the graded scale taxes middle class disproportionately from the rich or poor due to the FICA cap.

If you watch and believe what Fox News tells you without knowing that it is a bad thing, you have bigger problems to worry about to worry about than tax structure.

Go get your head examined.



Have you ever taken a university class above the 100 level in Economics or Finance? If you don't understand the concept of deminising marginal returns, what idiot made the decision to pay you $500,000 a year... o wait, you must work for Fox News.

:smash2:LOL! Yeah, I got to my position by being dumb. :p Unfortunately, I don't have the time to provide you with an education which you obviously need. But then again, you probably couldn't afford to pay me for my time.

As to Fox news, I always laugh at the baseless accusations against this network because they report on stories which the other networks do not (like the recent Acorn scandals). When you ask someone to justify their their comments you find that they either don't watch Fox at all and have developed their opinion based on other sources which like to take statements out of context (translation: they are drinking the kool aid), or they quote the opinion of some commentator meaning they don't understand the difference between fact and opinion.

Lastly I'll add that you can often tell who has the weaker argument by who resorts to personal insults.

Ninjettes good. Taxes bad. Puppies and ice cream good. Taxes bad. I try and spend as much time as possible with the good, and minimize the energy spent worrying about the bad. :thumbup:

This country is founded on the principle that the value of one man's life is not greater than that of any another. Does a man who makes $500k as a banker work 10 times as hard a man in construction making $50k? You're prepared to judge the value of a man's life by his earnings? Without a graded scale, where do you set the tax rate? 10k/yr would not be enough money and what if I only make 20k/yr? I am going to pay half to the government and then I never have the opportunity to accumulate wealth and reinvest it to perhaps increase my earnings and pay more into the system in the future.

If you read my post above you'll see that the graded scale taxes middle class disproportionately from the rich or poor due to the FICA cap.I think you are confusing the "value of life" with taxes. I also think you are underestimating what it takes to earn higher wages in a job. Does a banker work harder than a construction worker? He just might unless you measure job difficulty on a physical scale.

And the reason there is a FICA cap is because there is a maximum that you can get out of the system when you retire. It's not because someone wanted to benefit those who earn more than the cap. In fact, the system already is skewed so that the investment (if you want to call it that) that one person makes into social security has much less of a return than the investment made by someone else. So don't confuse FICA with Income tax. While the government may treat the money as the same (they shouldn't but they do), they are not.

Ninjettes good. Taxes bad. Puppies and ice cream good. Taxes bad. I try and spend as much time as possible with the good, and minimize the energy spent worrying about the bad. :thumbup: Great philosophy!! :thumbup:

I must apologize though. I do tend to get a little hot under the collar when someone tries to justify stealing money from me.

I will take your advice and back out of this thread.

Don't worry about it too much Zach (CIFEX). I hope they take a big chunk of my cash if I ever make $500,000 a year, it could be put to some real good which would help lots of people. Shoot even if they took 70% I could still pay off my house in a year and a half and have pleanty of fun while at it.

The problem with greed especially when it comes to money, is that people want it, even if it doesn't give them any benefit. Rich people worry more about lossing what they have than how to actually use it, and especially about how it could help others.

Remember that the same people who claim they deserve their higher rate of pay because they worked harder for it, are also those who oppose inheritance taxes, because they think it punishes their heirs who didn't lift a finger for the inheritance, all they had to do was be born, (Damn I did that). By that logic, their heirs shouldn't recieve a cent.

Which brings up a good point. If you want to maximize a nations Utility you should do the best to only take assets away from those who will loose the least amount of Utility. Shoot, Dead people have a utility of ZERO... So that is who should be taxed... HE HE HE (This is extreme, and I know that lots of people count on inheritance money, so this probably is not the best argument. I honestly don't believe in complete government possesion of the assests of the dead, but inheritance should be handled as additional income and should be taxed according to the appropriate tax bracket). This argument is logical, especially if you believe that income is deserved based on how "hard" someone works for it.

Great philosophy!! :thumbup:

I must apologize though. I do tend to get a little hot under the collar when someone tries to justify stealing money from me.

I will take your advice and back out of this thread.

Maybe don't think of it as stealing but as repaying the debt you've accumulated over the course of you're life in this country. I here Brunei is nice this time of year. :rolleyes:

As to Fox news, I always laugh at the baseless accusations against this network because they report on stories which the other networks do not (like the recent Acorn scandals).


My problem is when only a PART of a story is reported. Fox failed to report that several ACORN offices refused to be a part of the scam. Here in Philly, the ACORN office actually had to call the police to remove the scammers because they became belligerent when they were asked to leave. They actually had a copy of the police report (and this was shown on another news station). Makes me wonder why FAUX news couldn't have shown the ENTIRE story instead of only the part that supported their agenda. :confused:

All they do any story is promote their agenda. In fact, watch Fox News enough and you will notice, that if they are ever interviewing anyone and they start to mention something that doesn't coinside with their agenda, the interviewer then says..."We seam to have only 10 seconds left." But then they have no problem making question after question about realatively unimportant issues, such as, "Which Democratic polition screwed his secretary this week."

And my personal favoriate... "Fox News has recieved unconfirmed reports that..."

Report the news not speculation! From my observation--undocumented as they may be--it seems that I have seen more retractions from the Fox News channel and from local Fox affiliates than any other source. (But you've got to love HOUSE M.D.)

Plus shows like O'Reily and Cavuto simply make me sick. They are the news station equivilant to Jerry Springer.

Maybe don't think of it as stealing but as repaying the debt you've accumulated over the course of you're life in this country. I here Brunei is nice this time of year. :rolleyes:Sorry, but I have to answer this question. The debt that I have accumulated? Please explain this one. For the record, I served over 4 years in the military, put myself through school, I drove a truck, worked in construction, and spent a good number of years working two jobs to make ends meet. I started in my current industry in an entry level position and have worked my way up to my current senior management position in a Fortune 500 company. I donate a good amount of time doing charity work (including using that construction experience), and I donate a good chunk of my income to charity. I also give over half of my gross income to the government in the form of taxes. The reality is, if my taxes go up, my donation to charity will go down. Which is unfortunate because dollar for dollar, I believe the groups I donate to like the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, and various veteran charities can do more with my donation than the government can or will.

I have accumulated no debt that I owe to anyone. Working hard and succeeding is not a debt.

Why would you fight to preserve a country and government that steals?... You wouldn't.

Taxes are not stealing. However, not paying your taxes is. If you don't like paying them, go ahead and try not doing it and see how far you get.

Paying taxes is your obligation as a resident in this country.

The new phonebooks are here!!
Posted via Mobile Device

I like tacos!

Why would you fight to preserve a country and government that steals?... You wouldn't.

Taxes are not stealing. However, not paying your taxes is. If you don't like paying them, go ahead and try not doing it and see how far you get.

Paying taxes is your obligation as a resident in this country.I've never advocated for anyone to not pay taxes. You seem confused between someone speaking out against high and unnecessary taxes and someone committing a crime. And feel free to donate more of your money to the government if you feel so strongly on higher taxes. Certainly you can get by on less too.

But it's not entirely a lie either.

For example, in the reall world, those guys are not even in the same town, much less the same bar...

If the rich pay so much more, (and I'm not entirely sold on the idea that they do) it is to provide the environment that allows them to accumulate, and keep their wealth.

They pay for the services that keep the rabble out of their neighborhoods, out of their house, and off their daughters. (The part where the rich guy gets beat up is analagous to many a revolution, no?)

The poor generally don't have that 'luxury,' whether they deserve it or not, pay for it or not.


Let's not fool ourselves that one party is so different from the other. They are all Jokers, and Bush wore that clown face as much as Obama does today (Eight years ago, if you posted a JokerBush, picture online, you may have found yourself labled unpatriotic, wiretapped...)

I've posted this link in a few places, but I fear it is too long for most people to finish...yes, it's from Rolling Stone, and no doubt they lean left, but even Clinton and Gore are not spared. If you think a 'free market' exsists in this country now, well, I'll just challenge ya to read it entirely.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/29127316/the_great_american_bubble_machine

and silence...crickets...chirp........chirp....chirp...

Nobody reads any more...

I'll respond. I think it's an interesting read. By interesting, I mean not good and not bad. The author obviously has an opinion which makes me question the objectivity of the story. What is scary is that people actually get their "news" from sources like this. And yes, there are these types of sources on both sides. Now I'm not defending the Goldman Saks and the AIGs of the world, but it's pretty easy to write a negative essay on these companies. Especially when you focus on things that are complex, and the majority of the people don't understand.

I've been an opponent of the "bailouts" from the beginning. While I understand the rational behind them, I think that the answer was something other than bailout. I said this during the Bush administration, and I said it during the Obama administration.

I would encourage people to seek out multiple sources for stories, and to put more credibility in those sources which have a good record of being objective. Wall Street Journal is a good example (and I'm not talking about columnists and the editorial page which are obviously opinion pieces).

Anyway, it's a nice day out today. Finally a break in the two weeks of rain. I've got a little bit more work to do, and then I'm going out for a ride. :thumbup: At least we all share the same passion for riding. :)

If you watch and believe what Fox News tells you without knowing that it is a bad thing, you have bigger problems to worry about to worry about than tax structure.


I wonder what "credible" news service you watch??
Enjoy the free beer that I provide for you.

NPR, BBC, CSPAN
Posted via Mobile Device

NPR, BBC, CSPAN
Posted via Mobile Device

Good choices all, I also catch a little Fox once in a while, because I'm open minded...wonder how many Fox watchers catch a little NPR...


Of the three, I know that NPR was predicting the danger of the housing/derivative bubble...long before it burst...

I wasn't able to track anything down in the Wall Street Journal about it so far...but if some one else has the WSJ warning about it I'd love a link...

Ironic how all the NPR hosts hate the likes of Limbaugh, Levin, Beck, Oriley and Hannity among others. Wonder if there opinion is skewed?? Keep using up that public funding to support a point of view that cant survive in the free market. Un-Biased, you think?? Here, have another glass of Kool-Aid.

I have no problem with the BBC as they do a better job than 50% of the "credible" news services here in the states at obtaining information that is relavant.

As far as CSpan goes, if I wanted to watch elected officials who are supposed to represent the "people" lie to me constantly and then tell me my opinion I would tune in.


Jerry, you might want to try a little CNBC during the day along with the Wall Street Jornal if your looking for a little economic insight. The current prediction is the huge commercial property bubble bursting, commodities prices going thru the floor, and the crashing and burning of the dollar due to reckless spending and hyper inflation (Thank you, Congress and Senate along with Mr Obama). But what the hell, we can spend almost another trillion we dont have on healthcare.

.....walks away...

By the way, hows the California state economic picture looking? How many billions are your guys looking for from the taxpayers?? Good old Arnie and the California House and Senate have spent your state into oblivion.
I cant say much as Illinois is in almost as bad as shape thanks to Blago and the north of I-80 liberals.
Both state goverments controlled by liberal democrats. Coincidence?? Want a few other states that are a mess?? Try New York maybe New Jersey. Hows that hope and change workin out for ya there in Michigan? Keep voting for those democrats, Im sure there bound to fix the mess they have created.





P.s. Dont give me that its Arnies fault. Hes a republican in name only and miles and miles from being a conservative.
Which is how I define myself. Not Republican.......CONSERVATIVE.

Back to Ninjettes folks, none too soon...

/thread closed