Buell no more?!?! [Archive]

KJohnson21

October 15th, 2009, 12:53 PM

Wow! That's unexpected and disappointing. :eek:

I'd expected HD to scale down production on all of their lines and wait out the storm. I certainly thought that the Buell brand was healthy enough to not be considered an unnecessary risk. Instead, it seems that HD is going to stick with the only thing they understand (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showpost.php?p=43821&postcount=46). Unfortunately, I have little interest in retro designs. In any case, I do hope that HD doesn't get hit too hard so that they can stay around for a long time to come.

I really hope that Erik Buell will figure out some way of continuing to amaze us with fantastic concepts and designs. It's been really cool that he was able to get his ideas into full production, instead of stuck on a drafting board (CAD file) or a one-off test bike.

I have been lucky enough to get some Buell test rides: FireBolt (x2), 1125R. I wonder if that will still be an option at the Long Beach motorcycle show in December.

sofo

October 15th, 2009, 01:15 PM

It's strange basted on what Eric Buell says later in the video that he was staying on at Harley to do product development. Makes me wonder if they might be building more like the XR1200 in the future with his influence.

paterick4o8

October 15th, 2009, 01:15 PM

http://www.buell.com/en_us/

DAMN!

this is just is just depressing!!!! :sad:

he looks sooo sad. poor guys.

I wish them the best, even tho I never really planned to buy one, I always thought my friends 2009 xb12s was a pretty sleek bike

tiburonsita

October 15th, 2009, 01:22 PM

I agree with patw. Harley never marketed the Buell line as they did the Harley line which doomed them from the start. I truely believe that Buell could have gotten a foot hold on the sport bike market if Harley had invested more money in advertising.
I believe this will be the eventual demise of Harley - Davidson.

Marketing is everything. I never heard of Buell until I met someone with one of the bikes. Then all of a sudden I noticed the brand more.

Don't think HD will ever die though. I compare it to the Mac Users :D It's a cult!

CZroe

October 15th, 2009, 02:32 PM

Erik looks absolutely defeated. :( Poor guy. He was nothing if not passionate for the engineering and sport. The first motorbike I ever motored was a Buell.

Well I started the ball rolling, and posted on one of the buell-centric forums that other people should do the same. From the video at the Buell site, Erik is staying on with HD in some capacity but I doubt they will give him the latitude that he had with his designs.

Could a new Harley sportbike be on the way? They have raced them in the past.

andrewexd

October 15th, 2009, 04:24 PM

I'm sure there will always be a market for this style of bike, someone will more than likely buy them out when the stock is tanked and "turn the company around"... which from what I understand about business mean, cutting costs/features and offering a cheaper product with less bells and whistles ;)

I was also going to say "Move manufacturing to China", but it's HD... they can move to some poor part of the USA and exploit cheap labour.

I know most of us would spit-up in rage at the thought of spending $30k on a HD bike, but what about $15k... or $9k?

30k is the very expensive bikes, they start at around 8k.

Greg_E

October 15th, 2009, 05:01 PM

I doubt Harley will build a sport bike worth having, they only other thing they built was 50 of them because that is the minimum for production class racing. If they intended to go to sport bikes, it would have been easier to roll the Buell machines into their own name since they already owned the company, would have been very simple. A simple several year plan that starts by labeling the bike as Buell by Harley and then goes to just Harley, minimum of three years to do it right, or just suddenly if you don't care.

sombo

October 15th, 2009, 05:15 PM

Ummm the Buells have said "Powered by Harley-Davidson" for years already.

It's not so much that Buell was doing poor but that HD has been doing worse and worse. They keep having layoff after layoff of HD people. This was probably bound to happen because of how much Eric Buell tried to seperate his designs. When trying to bring out the new motor for the Buells he kept getting pushed further and further out of the development of the motor that by the time it was finished it was not what he wanted. That prompted him to look to Rotax to help out with the motor.

Now did this have any impact on HD's decision in closing Buell? No idea but I wouldn't put it past them.

Greg_E

October 15th, 2009, 05:23 PM

I agree, I think the winning racing season on the Rotax engine could have been part of it. But the Buell guys all had been put on 2 week furlough so even they were hurting. The Rotax engine probably cost them a lot.

The price of bikes at the local dealer dropped like a rock today... They have a brand new 08 1125R that is now selling for $5000, that's $2000 more than I just paid for my 03 XB9R, and the price I paid was a decent deal at the time. I didn't ask about the brand new XB12R's that they have, or the Ulysses sitting there in the Buell corner on the showroom, was too scared to find ut the answer. Now is the time to buy one if you want one.

revstriker

October 15th, 2009, 05:24 PM

Interesting news, but not completely surprising to me. The sport bike market is very competitive, and other than Buell, they are all imports. I don't know for sure, but I would speculate that Buells being made in the US, had a much higher cost structure than a Suzuki or a Kawasaki. But of course, they were expected by consumers to compete with these brands on price. We already saw an example of Buell giving up on competing in beginner bikes when they eliminated the Blast. From everything I've read, these lines are typically the least profitable for companies.

With HD struggling financially, they chose to focus future investments in what they do best, which is HDs. While one can speculate that better marketing would have helped, I wonder whether it would have helped enough. What they needed was a reputation like Ducat where they could demand higher out the door prices than the competition.

Anyway, just a lot of speculation on my part. I am sad to see the company stop producing Bikes though.

revstriker

October 15th, 2009, 05:29 PM

It looks like they'll still support your warrantee and repair work through HD, but I guess this will be your last Buell :(If I were a Buell owner, I would be more worried about after warranty, and the availability of new parts. I would also imagine that this will have a negative effect on the value of the bike as well.

Some of us are old enough to remember the Yugo (car) and how when they stopped making that, the parts for them really dried up. And like the Yugo, I bet even after market companies will not be producing parts for a small and shrinking customer base.

Greg_E

October 15th, 2009, 05:55 PM

Most of the after market stuff has already gone away.

andrewexd

October 15th, 2009, 06:57 PM

didn't Buell win these races by cheating ? you know, if you consider a 600cc vs. a 1125cc unfair.

Courteau

October 15th, 2009, 07:24 PM

past my exam on a Blast!
RIP Buell

backinthesaddleagain

October 15th, 2009, 08:20 PM

I think the only HD sportbike we will see is the XR1200. I hear it is popular outside the US. My local dealer said sold a couple but most HD customers want a low seat height bike.

P1NDLESK1N

October 15th, 2009, 10:21 PM

:rip:

CZroe

October 15th, 2009, 11:35 PM

I think the only HD sportbike we will see is the XR1200. I hear it is popular outside the US. My local dealer said sold a couple but most HD customers want a low seat height bike.

Part of that popularity is that most of Europe considers H-D "exotic."

karlosdajackal

October 16th, 2009, 01:49 AM

Part of that popularity is that most of Europe considers H-D "exotic."

As a European I'd say that statement is not even close to reality :cool:

I see 100 Jap bikes on the road for every 1 Harley. In fact the only time I ever see a Harley on the road is when they are driving to/from the main dealership in Dublin, they sit around have coffee then go home on this huge straight boring smooth road.

Our B roads are not quite as smooth as what I see in the states, so I can't imagine anyone would pick a Harley just to "cruise". Seems like everybody who does not want a sport bike is buying a BMW right now, they also cost a lot and have been know to use the odd Rotax engine, but they are a better product in every way.

I honestly think that in America they sell a lot because they are American, outside America that does not count for much if anything. Thats also true for Triumph in the UK, Ducati in Italy etc.

So when you get down to just looking at the product/image your not left with much when you look at a Harley. A non-Italian can get a wow factor from a Ducati and a non-Brit can see that Triumph make some amazing bikes. A non-America who ends up in a HD dealership is probably lost.

Sad to see any bike maker go bust, and of course the poor employees who dedicated themselves to there jobs being laid off. Maybe it might work better for MV Agusta, hopefully Ducati or Aprilla pick it up and start doing something with it again. HD will probably struggle but survive until the world economy picks up, lets face it a "Harley" was a disposable toy for a lot of there customers, bought with there quarterly bonus. Now the bonus's are gone (apart from in goldman sach :mad:) only the really dedicated will pick up a new Harley.

CZroe

October 16th, 2009, 02:30 AM

As a European I'd say that statement is not even close to reality :cool:

I see 100 Jap bikes on the road for every 1 Harley.
That's more than expected... and you have a dealership? I guess it's not exotic in Ireland.

But it almost seems like you expected MORE than 1 in 100 to be exotic. Generally, are there more than 1 in 100 vehicles exotic in Ireland? Even if there were, they would certainly not all be of a particular manufacturer (many exotics aren't "manufactured" in the traditional sense). Besides, that is a generalized impression across many regions given in a magazine by the European creator of an awesome H-D streetfighter (a world class custom build; not a generaly DIY streetfighter). He was asked why he chose H-D for his sporty SF and he replied that it was "considered somewhat exotic" in much of Europe meaning that, yes, some regions would consider it borderline-exotic and others wouldn't consider it at all. Otherwise he just would have just flatly stated that it was exotic in Europe.

In fact the only time I ever see a Harley on the road is when they are driving to/from the main dealership in Dublin, they sit around have coffee then go home on this huge straight boring smooth road.
Similarly, I don't see Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, Maserati, and Lamborghini often unless I'm near a dealer. That only increases their appeal.

Our B roads are not quite as smooth as what I see in the states, so I can't imagine anyone would pick a Harley just to "cruise". Seems like everybody who does not want a sport bike is buying a BMW right now, they also cost a lot and have been know to use the odd Rotax engine, but they are a better product in every way.
I agree.

I honestly think that in America they sell a lot because they are American, outside America that does not count for much if anything. Thats also true for Triumph in the UK, Ducati in Italy etc.
Right, which is why they are rare and considered somewhat exotic in the countries that do not have H-D dealerships.

So when you get down to just looking at the product/image your not left with much when you look at a Harley. A non-Italian can get a wow factor from a Ducati and a non-Brit can see that Triumph make some amazing bikes. A non-America who ends up in a HD dealership is probably lost.
If the region had enough demand to support a dealership, the brand is probably not considered exotic there. Specific models of supercars could be considered exotic from a non-exotic manufacturer because only 50 or so were made to meet minimum manufacturing requirements for competition (thus, not available through the dealer network). For the average H-D bike to be considered exotic, you probably have to look in the countries that don't have dealerships (considering how poorly suited they are to general European roads and interests, that'd probably be "most" European countries ;)).

Sad to see any bike maker go bust, and of course the poor employees who dedicated themselves to there jobs being laid off. Maybe it might work better for MV Agusta, hopefully Ducati or Aprilla pick it up and start doing something with it again. HD will probably struggle but survive until the world economy picks up, lets face it a "Harley" was a disposable toy for a lot of there customers, bought with there quarterly bonus. Now the bonus's are gone (apart from in goldman sach :mad:) only the really dedicated will pick up a new Harley.

The really dedicated and rich enough to be undeterred by the economy will pick one up... which only furthers the elusive/exotic appeal to some. ;)

karlosdajackal

October 16th, 2009, 03:29 AM

That's more than expected... and you have a dealership? I guess it's not exotic in Ireland.

But it almost seems like you expected MORE than 1 in 100 to be exotic. Generally, are there more than 1 in 100 vehicles exotic in Ireland? Even if there were, they would certainly not all be of a particular manufacturer (many exotics aren't "manufactured" in the traditional sense). Besides, that is a generalized impression across many regions given in a magazine by the European creator of an awesome H-D streetfighter (a world class custom build; not a generaly DIY streetfighter). He was asked why he chose H-D for his sporty SF and he replied that it was "considered somewhat exotic" in much of Europe meaning that, yes, some regions would consider it borderline-exotic and others wouldn't consider it at all. Otherwise he just would have just flatly stated that it was exotic in Europe.

Similarly, I don't see Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, Maserati, and Lamborghini often unless I'm near a dealer. That only increases their appeal.

I agree.

Right, which is why they are rare and considered somewhat exotic in the countries that do not have H-D dealerships.

If the region had enough demand to support a dealership, the brand is probably not considered exotic there. Specific models of supercars could be considered exotic from a non-exotic manufacturer because only 50 or so were made to meet minimum manufacturing requirements for competition (thus, not available through the dealer network). For the average H-D bike to be considered exotic, you probably have to look in the countries that don't have dealerships (considering how poorly suited they are to general European roads and interests, that'd probably be "most" European countries ;)).

The really dedicated and rich enough to be undeterred by the economy will pick one up... which only furthers the elusive/exotic appeal to some. ;)

"EXOTIC" is exotic, thats different to RARE, I see as many kia's as I see harleys, kia's are not exotic and neither are harleys, both are rare. As far as cars that are Exotic, I see at least a ferrari 360, a lambo gaiado (2 actually), a bentley continental and 4 or 5 porsches (2 old, 3 new) in a week, and we don't have dealerships for them. Maybe an Austin Martin once a month if your lucky. To be exotic it has be different and something people would want to own and aspire to owning, my point is a Harley does not appeal. The people buying the Ferraris and Lambos are more likely to have a Ducati than a Harley.

The image of a Ferrai/Ducati owner is of someone succesful, the image of a harley owner is not. I won't explain what the image of a harley rider is as it might upset some people and we know its a perception issue but is there.

Yea we have a Harley/Buell dealer, 1 dealer for a country of 4+ million people :rolleyes: I have seen only one Buell on the roads in the last 5 years and that was about a mile from the dealer. Think we have a kia dealer also :eek:

So yea in my part of Europe they are "Rare" but certainly not "Exotic". If someone wants a bike with bad suspension that weighs too much, makes too much noise and has poor brakes and cornering, they generally by a 30 year old bike, not a new bike made to 30 year old standards.

ex⋅ot⋅ic
–adjective
1. of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalized or acclimatized: exotic foods; exotic plants. [true]
2. strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance: an exotic hairstyle. [false]
3. of a uniquely new or experimental nature: exotic weapons. [total fail]
4. of, pertaining to, or involving stripteasing: the exotic clubs where strippers are featured. [fail]

while they may be foreign, they are not strange, they are not new or experimental, and they are not stippers :p (please folks don't post a pic of that custom chopper with the strip pole on it, this is a family site).

Anyway we should probably get another thread if we want to discuss how exotic harleys.

RIP Buell....

adouglas

October 16th, 2009, 04:32 AM

didn't Buell win these races by cheating ? you know, if you consider a 600cc vs. a 1125cc unfair.

It's only cheating if the rules prohibit it.

"Fair" depends on your point of view.

Nny

October 16th, 2009, 04:41 AM

I reeeeaaally think some of you guys have the wrong idea on HD.

Its a cruiser - not a performance machine.
The only other bike I was looking at was a Yamaha midnight warrior. But the Harley was 2k cheaper, bigger gas tank, 6 gears, better mpg, and (from what I have heard/ read) a softer ride for cruising. So that won me over.

I could really go on..but I will just say that people should not be so quick to judge or bash. I was like that when I was in my teens, but I realized how hard it was going through life and learning new things by placing so many walls in front of myself.

Ahem - it is sad to see Buell shut down. I was never really into their bikes but I did have appreciation for them. A small company competing their 2 cyclinder motor against long standing giants such as Kawasaki, Honda and Yamaha and their inline 4 cyclinder engines.

While Buell was a part of HD - I would still say their marketing and design was still up to Buell. If Buell is going to close their doors is it really fact that the responsability was directly on the shoulders of HD? All companies are struggling right now. This isnt isolated to one. Honda motorcycles had closed some of their shops here in USA.

Alright, gotta stop there..I am at work after all.

Apex

October 16th, 2009, 07:28 AM

I actually wanted a Buell. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere now.

I like twins. Maybe I'll have to hit up Ducati.

backinthesaddleagain

October 16th, 2009, 08:57 AM

All I see near my house is HD. Now to be fair the HD dealer is about 7 miles away and 2 turns from my driveway. The road i live on is a great riding road that leads to even better roads in nearby Connecticut. I hear the constant rumble of HD. When i hear something else i get up and look. I guess the bikes other than HD that go by my house aren't exotic, just rare.

Greg_E

October 16th, 2009, 09:52 AM

There were some nice used Buells around your area, and they should be cheap now. That said many people have decided not to sell their Buell.

revstriker

October 16th, 2009, 10:17 AM

"EXOTIC" is exotic, thats different to RARE, I see as many kia's as I see harleys, kia's are not exotic and neither are harleys, both are rare. As far as cars that are Exotic, I see at least a ferrari 360, a lambo gaiado (2 actually), a bentley continental and 4 or 5 porsches (2 old, 3 new) in a week, and we don't have dealerships for them. Maybe an Austin Martin once a month if your lucky. To be exotic it has be different and something people would want to own and aspire to owning, my point is a Harley does not appeal. The people buying the Ferraris and Lambos are more likely to have a Ducati than a Harley.Aside from the term exotic not neccessarily meaning that people would desire to own it, I think you are injecting your opinion into this. Just because you don't like HD (I don't either) does not mean that they are not desireable, or that they are not considered to be an exotic bike in Europe. Even looking at your own definition:
ex⋅ot⋅ic
–adjective
1. of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalized or acclimatized: exotic foods; exotic plants. [true]
2. strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance: an exotic hairstyle. [false] Well a HD in Europe certainly is foreign and not native. I would also say the design of HDs are unusual, and certainly not like other bikes. Do you know of any other companies that make engines like HDs?

I've lived in Europe and travelled quite a bit through Europe. HDs were always thought of as a special bike, because they were rare, and they were unlike any other bike. I would even say it had an appeal that it really doesn't have in the US because they are much more common here. If they are or are not "exotic" is debatable and the term probably is somewhat subjective.

sombo

October 16th, 2009, 05:13 PM

While Buell was a part of HD - I would still say their marketing and design was still up to Buell. If Buell is going to close their doors is it really fact that the responsibility was directly on the shoulders of HD?

Buell was more then a "part" of HD. HD owned more then 90% of Buell. It was NOT Buell's decision to close down. In fact he (Erik Buell) had been looking at expanding because unlike HD his line was NOT losing money. HD is doing so poor right now that they are cutting away anything and everything they think they can afford to lose to turn their own profit around.

One thing that probably didn't help was Buell turning down a new HD motor design and going to Rotax for help. What happened there was HD and Buell started working together on a new motor design with a third party help. Over the course of design Buell got pushed further and further out of the way in the design process. In the end the motor was too heavy and unbalanced for what Buell had wanted when the process started. So since it was no longer the motor he wanted/needed for his bikes he refused to use it and turned to another outside source (Rotax) to help build and design his new twin.

I think another factor is that Buell was starting to gain more notice and was starting to outshine HD's in some area's. That probably didn't go over well with the higher ups in HD that make the decisions. HD has always been a cruiser bike company, and never really took sport bikes serious enough. Buell tried to change that with his bikes using HD motors to show that it could be done. If HD doesn't want to have anything to do with sport bikes then of course they would choose to shut down Buell.

That's just my insight and my :2cents:

Greg_E

October 16th, 2009, 06:00 PM

I think you are pretty much spot on.

capt_bugaloo

October 16th, 2009, 09:07 PM

I always thought that Buell did some different and innovative things with their bikes; a Buell is definitely quite a different ride from your average Japanese sportbike.
I could have seen owning a Buell someday, but I guess that's not so likely now.

I think it's pretty sad to see any motorcycle maker fold up; more motorcycles are better.

CZroe

October 16th, 2009, 11:50 PM

When I got my 250 I was CONVINCED that a Buell would be my next bike. Since then, I've gravitated and now lean toward the Ninja 650R/ER6F (thanks to 2009 refresh), but they were still on my short-list. Heck I knew that if I could afford a third bike someday, I'd have a Buell in there somewhere!

headshrink

October 17th, 2009, 12:40 AM

http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/blast/

The 2010 Blast.... this is to f%#@%^#@ disrespectful!

KJohnson21

October 17th, 2009, 12:44 AM

Here are some interesting details/opinions about the whole situation: Expletive Deleted: The Broken Man (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Oct/091016expldeleted.htm)

nate-bama

October 17th, 2009, 07:30 AM

too bad a v rod powered buell never happened

Alex

October 17th, 2009, 07:36 AM

The rotax 1125 in the new 1125R's was a much nicer motor than the vrod mill. More power, lighter, sweeter revving, etc. It's a shame it took them so many years before they could build a bike around a modern engine, though.

Greg_E

October 17th, 2009, 08:46 AM

There are some certain uneasy truths in that article. What they were trying to do is set up a horsepower rated class, and since the Buells make (without question) lower horsepower per cc, the 600's got stuck in the mix. My 983 makes (rumored) 90+ horsepower at the crank, and more commonly tested around 70 at the rear wheel, not very much considering my old air cooled Katana 600 made around 60.

The Rotax engine was a step in the right direction for the bikes, but it also must have pissed off the Harley people by taking one more step away form the "norm". Finally winning the championship with that engine was the last nail, since the Sporty based 1200 engines didn't do so great as to win this year or last year. What do you really want from an engine that dates back to 1957 with a few small updates.

Well I'm starting to be proud of being an outcast, been that way most of my life so it's only fitting to ride an outcast too. Decided that pretty much all of the mods I was going to do are now off the table, going to make it stock, going to try and take care of it, and going to ride it when I can. A lot of people that were selling have decided to do the same thing, some said they will be buying another (or more) to put into storage so that when their current ride gets to tired to make the journeys, they can pull out a nice fresh bike and keep going. I'm not to that stage yet, but it could happen, especially if the used prices crash like the new prices. Rumors are that some dealerships are blowing out the new stock at $4000 to $5000 discounts putting brand new XB12's at about $5000 with warranty, some as the final OTD price after fees and taxes. Sort of makes me cry for the $3000 I just spent on an old 03 but I guess I'll get over it.

mike_sema

October 17th, 2009, 12:21 PM

man that sucks to see this but what can you do

Nny

October 19th, 2009, 04:58 AM

Buell was more then a "part" of HD. HD owned more then 90% of Buell.

What I mean by that any company has people assigned to a specific role. This case being a design team, sales reps, marketing, etc etc. All of the funding may have come from HD but they worked for Buell. Since HD is NOT doing well, I am sure they are looking out for the future of just HD and their employees.

The company I work downsized several times over the past 3 years. They got rid of certain projects that did not benefit the long term goal of the company. The projects were doing well but it wasn’t the direction the company was wanting to go. They wanted to keep certain people on salary but in order to do so they had to get rid of some people. It made sense to cut the project as a whole rather than make every part a skeleton staff. Productivity would drop to the point where no part was doing well.

That’s all I meant by a part of HD.

In all fairness, they did eliminate some of their own "fat" so to speak. A lot of HD shops had closed. I know the factory in PA had shut down too. This was done before the decision to get rid of Buell and MVAgusta.

I think if Harley is ever going to appeal to a larger crowd, they need to make some sacrifices and changes. I don’t agree with getting rid of Buell or MVAgusta. Especially if like you said Mike, HD held some animosity about refusing their design. Buell and MVAugsta was drawing in a larger crowd - that’s exactly what they needed.

I really gotta disagree with outshining HD's. Buell will never be a cruiser. Its like comparing towing capabilities between a truck and a car. Of course one is going to do a better job.
Harleys image is about the cruiser. This falls back to what I was saying about the long term goal of the company. So I agree with you on that part.

camaroz1985

October 19th, 2009, 07:05 AM

In all fairness, they did eliminate some of their own "fat" so to speak. A lot of HD shops had closed. I know the factory in PA had shut down too. This was done before the decision to get rid of Buell and MVAgusta.

They haven't closed it yet, but are considering closing it. This doesn't look good for them (the workers) though.

Greg_E

October 19th, 2009, 07:38 AM

They will almost certainly close that plant but legislation is trying to find some breaks to allow them to keep it running. The same is in progress for Buell, even though it is only 200 jobs. But I think it is too late for Buell, I think they just plain want to close it instead of stopping the new designs and just running with the stuff they already have in production (which would have been a smarter way to try and get through the poor economy). Apparently they were doing engineering tooling for something really different, stopping that and maybe even stopping the Rotax powered 1125 models might have allowed them to keep going at a break even pace to try and get through the economy, then pick up the design stages when things get better. At least that's how I would have looked at it.

ninjabrewer

October 19th, 2009, 08:43 AM

I really hate to see another American co close up shop. One of my co-workers rides a Buell. He crashed several months ago and banged up his shoulder really bad and trashed the rear end of his bike. He told me that Buell had a policy of making repair parts available at a decent price and was able to get his bike back on the road for around $600. I was never really crazy about their designs, but that is another American company closed and more American jobs lost. IMHO, I have always thought that if an American co wanted to compete with the imported sport/super sport bikes, they would try to do it with something other than the v twin. I 've only seen v twins in American bikes, although I could be wrong. Always wondered about that.

nb

Sailariel

October 19th, 2009, 09:10 AM

Before I got the Ninja in 08, I seriously considered the Buell Blast. I liked the fact that the seat was low enough that both feet reached the ground at traffic lights, I also liked the fact that it was a 500 Single (I loved my old Gold Star). The Blast was also very flickable. I did not like the low RPM vibration---vibrated more than the BSA. Did an A B comparison with the Ninja and here was a bike with half the displacement that was light years ahead in engineering and quality. The Blast "looked like" it had a sleeved down Sportster engine with the rear cylinder lopped off. I can`t believe how that bike vibrated. I have to say that it was a very attractive bike and I really liked the huge brakes. I am sorry to see Buell close shop. I REALLY liked the 1200 Rotax powered bike but was realistic enough not to get such a powerful machine.

Greg_E

October 19th, 2009, 09:43 AM

Not sure why the blast vibrated too much, I've ridden my brother's KLR650 which is also a single and it is pretty smooth from idle up to 2/3 red line. That said, the Blast was extremely primitive, but they may still be making them for the Riders Edge program (that's the rumor). Also in all reality the engine in the XB series of Buell is damn primitive too, not really much change from the 1957 Sportsters except for the FI and better gasket material to keep the cases from dripping.

ScraitT

October 19th, 2009, 09:45 AM

Before I got the Ninja in 08, I seriously considered the Buell Blast.

I did pretty much the exact same comparison, but what REALLY convinced me was during my MSF. They had a few blasts and I made it a point to get on one for the test to try it out. They only had about 800 miles on them, and they were NOT impressive at all. At speed (a whole 20mph in the MSF) they were decent and definately had soem fun torque....but as you mentioned, the stops with the idle...HORRIBLE.

Sailariel

October 19th, 2009, 09:51 AM

My intro to the Blast was MSF. My reaction was the same as yours. Looks like we both got GREEN Ninjas. I think we made an excellent choice.

revstriker

October 19th, 2009, 10:49 AM

What I mean by that any company has people assigned to a specific role. This case being a design team, sales reps, marketing, etc etc. All of the funding may have come from HD but they worked for Buell. Since HD is NOT doing well, I am sure they are looking out for the future of just HD and their employees.

The company I work downsized several times over the past 3 years. They got rid of certain projects that did not benefit the long term goal of the company. The projects were doing well but it wasn’t the direction the company was wanting to go. They wanted to keep certain people on salary but in order to do so they had to get rid of some people. It made sense to cut the project as a whole rather than make every part a skeleton staff. Productivity would drop to the point where no part was doing well.

That’s all I meant by a part of HD.

In all fairness, they did eliminate some of their own "fat" so to speak. A lot of HD shops had closed. I know the factory in PA had shut down too. This was done before the decision to get rid of Buell and MVAgusta.

I think if Harley is ever going to appeal to a larger crowd, they need to make some sacrifices and changes. I don’t agree with getting rid of Buell or MVAgusta. Especially if like you said Mike, HD held some animosity about refusing their design. Buell and MVAugsta was drawing in a larger crowd - that’s exactly what they needed.

I really gotta disagree with outshining HD's. Buell will never be a cruiser. Its like comparing towing capabilities between a truck and a car. Of course one is going to do a better job.
Harleys image is about the cruiser. This falls back to what I was saying about the long term goal of the company. So I agree with you on that part.It's hard with any public company to drill into the reasons "why" a company isn't doing as well as it should. So it's hard to get info as to how Buell was doing within HD. However, we do have statements from the CEO which indicate that the profit margin on the Buell products was much lower than on the HD branded products. Also, when a company is not performing to expectations, and needs to "turn around", the smart thing is to focus on the things that they do best. For a company like HD, it does not surprise me that they would diversify from the Buell brand and the MV Augusta brand. Another typical concern with underperforming companies is cash flow. This could also explain their desire to sell of the MV Augusta brand.

LazinCajun

October 19th, 2009, 11:02 AM

I'm surprised they're just closing shop instead of selling the Buell brand.
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CRXTrek

October 19th, 2009, 11:30 AM

I'm surprised they're just closing shop instead of selling the Buell brand.
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Who would they sell it to? China? So they could start knocking out thousands of Harley knockoffs for cheap.

Lars

October 19th, 2009, 11:40 AM

Most of what I've read about it mentions that H-D's and Buell's supply chains were tightly integrated. So much so, that if H-D tried to separate Buell out to create a "sell able" entity, it wouldn't be worth much of anything.

This differs of course to MV Agusta, which has operated as a separate entity the entire time.

CZroe

October 19th, 2009, 11:54 AM

What I want to know is: What does this mean for the H-D Rider's Edge MSF/BRC? Will they be canceling the program? If not, the current stock really takes a beating and they can't use the same Blasts forever... what bikes will they use going forward? I should have asked this question as soon a Buell killed the Blast. :D

Greg_E

October 19th, 2009, 12:17 PM

Rumor is that they will continue to push at enough Blasts for that program. Hell they may even bring it back as a Harley product since it kind of performs as well as most of their machines. Maybe even stick the full Sporty motor in it to get a whopping 60 horsepower from that 1200cc monster (and still have all the nice vibration at any speed). Yes it's true, they were only getting 60 horses from that motor until Buell worked it over and made it up to 100 (about 80 to 90 rear wheel). I'm sure the Sportsters will benefit from that relationship.

If they really wanted, the service and support network could have been slowly unwound, it really is all up to what Harley wants to do with it, and it really looks like they want to flush it.

andrewexd

October 19th, 2009, 12:54 PM

whats the point of the riders edge ? isn't it the same thing as the MSF except they use the blast instead of 250's ?

Greg_E

October 19th, 2009, 01:11 PM

Sailariel

October 19th, 2009, 02:13 PM

If Kawasaki was smart, they would fill that void with a 250 version of the ER6N. It would be the perfect MSF bike and wreak havoc with the Rebel.

CZroe

October 19th, 2009, 05:00 PM

Yeah, it's just one other way to make yourself look good and say you are doing something for the motorcycling community while trying to sell your bikes to the noobs. A lot of people bought Blasts because of that program.

And a lot of people bought EX250s from dealers offering MSF courses with EX250s. What's your point?

H-D offers a MSF BRC course the same as many other dealers. The same as many other dealers, they try to sell you bikes (duh). The only difference is that they standardized it across their dealer network and branded it so that they could try to spin it as a superior offering.

Only ONE of my classmates bought a Blast. My instructors ("Wes" and "D") did not discourage students from other brands. In fact, they congratulated the students on their choice or intended choice of bike regardless of the brand as well as gave appropriate warnings (a father/son duo with a Gixxer 1000 were told that that was a nice bike but they should be careful; the students with or planning to get a EX250 were told that it was an excellent choice). The instructors themselves weren't H-D stooges either. IIRC, one drove a Honda sport-touring bike (forget which... wasn't a Goldwing) and the other alternated between a Buell and a Kawasaki.

whats the point of the riders edge ? isn't it the same thing as the MSF except they use the blast instead of 250's ?

I'm not sure what you are implying with that tone. That's like asking "What's the point of the MSF BRC?" Rider's Edge *IS* an MSF BRC course offered by H-D the same as any other dealer can set up and offer an MSF BRC course. They have to hire MSF-certified instructors the same as anyone else.

When I looked on the MSF site for local MSF courses, I didn't find any anywhere near me. Imagine my surprise when I found out that the second-closest local Kawi/other motorsports dealer (actually owned by the larger, closer, Kawi dealer) offered one as well as three H-D dealerships that were even closer. Nothing wrong with more selection.

Also, while very many non-H-D MSF BRC courses use EX250s, many more use a mix of Honda Rebels, Suzuki GZ250s, and other small bikes. I asked at that dealer and found that they had mostly Rebels and only a few EX250s.

If it weren't for H-D R's E, I wouldn't have been able to take a BRC... all others were too far away and impossible to attend with either my weekday or weekend work schedule. They also claim to go above and beyond the minimum MSF guidelines, but I'm pretty sure most MSF BRC course providers claim that.

ScraitT

October 19th, 2009, 07:15 PM

I actually took my MSF through a HD dealership, but I never saw any mention of "rider's edge". It was actually very nice because upon completion, we were all given a $20 gift certificate to the Harley store there...so I bought a nice shiny disk lock for $30 ($10 after the 20 off). So yes I have a chrome HD dick lock on my kawi :-)
The bikes in the MSF were not all HD bikes though, about 4 of them were Blasts and the rest were all chinese knockoff cruisers, which were REALLY pieces of....the instructors constantly had to fix the bikes from locked up trannys.

andrewexd

October 19th, 2009, 07:32 PM

I'm not sure what you are implying with that tone. That's like asking "What's the point of the MSF BRC?" Rider's Edge *IS* an MSF BRC course offered by H-D the same as any other dealer can set up and offer an MSF BRC course. They have to hire MSF-certified instructors the same as anyone else.

When I looked on the MSF site for local MSF courses, I didn't find any anywhere near me. Imagine my surprise when I found out that the second-closest local Kawi/other motorsports dealer (actually owned by the larger, closer, Kawi dealer) offered one as well as three H-D dealerships that were even closer. Nothing wrong with more selection.

Also, while very many non-H-D MSF BRC courses use EX250s, many more use a mix of Honda Rebels, Suzuki GZ250s, and other small bikes. I asked at that dealer and found that they had mostly Rebels and only a few EX250s.

If it weren't for H-D R's E, I wouldn't have been able to take a BRC... all others were too far away and impossible to attend with either my weekday or weekend work schedule. They also claim to go above and beyond the minimum MSF guidelines, but I'm pretty sure most MSF BRC course providers claim that.

i was just saying, whats the point of using a 500cc bike for parking lot manuvers under 20mph ? Do people prefer using a 500 ? idk, just wondering.

CRXTrek

October 19th, 2009, 09:14 PM

Back when i took my safety course (in the 70's)we used honda's rebel and a dual purpose 125.
Did you have to ride up a 2x4 balanced on a car tire like a playground tee-der-todder? We did alone and with a passenger.:D

CZroe

October 19th, 2009, 11:45 PM

i was just saying, whats the point of using a 500cc bike for parking lot manuvers under 20mph ? Do people prefer using a 500 ? idk, just wondering.

It's actually very comparable to the Ninja 250 in every way that matters to MSF BRC suitability. Weight, seat height, fuel economy, HP, etc are all in line with it's 250cc competition. Heck, handling and damage resistance is improved due to underslung exhaust, minimal fairings, and a plastic tank cover made of a speacial composite similar to golf balls (VERY hard to damage). This makes it less likely to be dropped and able to resist damage when enevitably dropped (in addition to tied blinkers and removed mirrors).

On the street, it's comparable to the classic 250's fuel economy (70+ MPG)! The biggest difference is styling and comfort (being a "Thumper," the Blast is not a good commuter!).

CZroe

October 20th, 2009, 10:09 AM

If Kawasaki was smart, they would fill that void with a 250 version of the ER6N. It would be the perfect MSF bike and wreak havoc with the Rebel.

Not entirely "Naked" (the "N" is for "Naked" like the ER6f is for "Faired") but...
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31577

Sailariel

October 20th, 2009, 02:20 PM

JET, That`s one hell of a modification! I like it, esp. the dual brakes. Stopping power has to be awesome.

CZroe

October 20th, 2009, 02:34 PM

JET, That`s one hell of a modification! I like it, esp. the dual brakes. Stopping power has to be awesome.

Here's another one...
4668

:cool:

Too bad it isn't real. :(

From here:

http://fantasticmodification.blogspot.com/2009/09/kawasaki-ninja-250-r-streetking-silver.html

Alex

October 20th, 2009, 05:22 PM

We had a Blast as Annie's first bike, and it wasn't so bad. It does have some advantages over the ninjette, especially for MSF-like purposes. A zero-mph drop of a Blast ends up with <$8 damage (1 replaced turn signal lens, which is dirt cheap) to get it back to like-new condition. A zero-mph drop of a ninjette can be hundreds if not thousands of dollars to get it back to like-new condition. Sure, people can live with the fairing cracks and scratches, the scratches on the mirror stalks, on the exhaust, or even tail section. But for a cheap, light bike; the ninjette still costs a pretty penny when it hits the ground; unlike the Blast.

I also didn't find the vibration bad at all on that bike. At idle, it bounces around like a paint shaker. But once underway, it really does smooth out quite a bit and is by no means bothersome. It's one of the pieces of engineering that Buell really did get right on their bikes; how to take a motor that has significant vibrational force, and use clever engine mounting so the vibration isn't noticed by the rider at normal road speeds.

I do feel the ninjette is a superior bike for a number of reasons, but the Blast really wasn't as much of a pile as some would have you think.

Greg_E

October 20th, 2009, 06:01 PM

Many people on the Buell forums have said they regularly get 90 to 100 mpg which seems really high for a 500cc motor.

headshrink

October 20th, 2009, 08:27 PM

Many people on the Buell forums have said they regularly get 90 to 100 mpg which seems really high for a 500cc motor.

I am about as skeptical about that as the folks that say they get 70mpg out of the 250r. These folks must be riding on the sidewalk.

After removing my snorkel (also shimmed, but otherwise stock), I just got 45mpg on my first tank!!! That is pretty low for not re-jetting and with original pipe. Not trying to hijack the thread to mpg, but I just don't see how that is possible. Maybe they are trying to convert some of us..... :p

CZroe

October 20th, 2009, 08:40 PM

I am about as skeptical about that as the folks that say they get 70mpg out of the 250r. These folks must be riding on the sidewalk.

After removing my snorkel (also shimmed, but otherwise stock), I just got 45mpg on my first tank!!! That is pretty low for not re-jetting and with original pipe. Not trying to hijack the thread to mpg, but I just don't see how that is possible. Maybe they are trying to convert some of us..... :p

I just got 46 on mine. Even so, Cycle World tested the classic Ninjette at 74 and the Blast at 72 with their route sounding pretty varied (Petrol Pinchers article). It's pretty darn impressive that it matched the classic Ninjette's fuel economy with twice the displacement!

shadow

October 21st, 2009, 02:10 AM

Here's another one...
4668

:cool:

Too bad it isn't real. :(

From here:

http://fantasticmodification.blogspot.com/2009/09/kawasaki-ninja-250-r-streetking-silver.html

Actually, a gent in Indonesia did a "SF-style" 250r that came out EERILY close to this.

I just got 46 on mine. Even so, Cycle World tested the classic Ninjette at 74 and the Blast at 72 with their route sounding pretty varied (Petrol Pinchers article). It's pretty darn impressive that it matched the classic Ninjette's fuel economy with twice the displacement!

Remember, it is twice the displacement but HALF the rpm at any moment. We fire 2 per 1 of them, and being 250x2 it equates. Same thinking with a Rotary motor...they may only be 1.3L, but their style and high-spinning/firing setup makes them thirsty, especially when pushed...
as for "thumping", I didn't get too bugged during MSF (the damn carb was a POS on it, and in the rain for saturdays riding session it was bogging every 5 minutes)...but this is also coming from someone who raced 5hp B&S go-karts when he was young. Kinda familiar with the lawnmower sound :-P

sombo

October 21st, 2009, 02:38 AM

I am about as skeptical about that as the folks that say they get 70mpg out of the 250r. These folks must be riding on the sidewalk.

After removing my snorkel (also shimmed, but otherwise stock), I just got 45mpg on my first tank!!! That is pretty low for not re-jetting and with original pipe. Not trying to hijack the thread to mpg, but I just don't see how that is possible. Maybe they are trying to convert some of us..... :p

With my 1994 ninjette with jetting and yoshi exhaust I've been able to get about 60mpg with regular riding on it.

CZroe

October 21st, 2009, 02:55 AM

Actually, a gent in Indonesia did a "SF-style" 250r that came out EERILY close to this.

Yeah, I linked to the recent thread about it earlier... that was the "other" one. ;)

Remember, it is twice the displacement but HALF the rpm at any moment. We fire 2 per 1 of them, and being 250x2 it equates. Same thinking with a Rotary motor...they may only be 1.3L, but their style and high-spinning/firing setup makes them thirsty, especially when pushed...
as for "thumping", I didn't get too bugged during MSF (the damn carb was a POS on it, and in the rain for saturdays riding session it was bogging every 5 minutes)...but this is also coming from someone who raced 5hp B&S go-karts when he was young. Kinda familiar with the lawnmower sound :-P
Yeah, there are a lot of factors that I don't understand. It still adds weight, for example. ;)

Oh, and my MSF course on a Blast was also rainy. :( It was 100 degrees when the sun was out on the same day. Hot AND humid.

Greg_E

October 21st, 2009, 09:07 AM

I think it really comes down to twisting the throttle. I can average 40mpg in my 2000+ pound 125+ horsepower 1.8 liter car, by that standard all of our bikes should be a lot higher. I do know that there is a certain level of horsepower needed to push a vehicle down the road at X speed, and that the 250 twin or 500 single should roughly burn the same amount of fuel to make that horsepower.

I think what I'm getting at is that there must be some people that pretty much never open the throttle. They probably never let the machine warm up at idle either which is a huge fuel consumer (in the grand scheme of things). It's also possible that the single has less internal friction than the double which would let it be as efficient as some people claim. Many people on the Buell forums regularly cite 70+mpg with their blasts, though these are usually driven by 100 pound women so the weight difference and size difference may account for the higher mpg (less weight and less drag certainly can't hurt). Women in general are often less aggressive drivers which may point back to the lack of throttle opening to help too. That said I'm sure there are some women running the tires off of sport bikes and getting nearly single digit mpg. I did get down to about 12mpg with my old Katana one tank, I was really wringing it everywhere I went that day and the 5 gallons didn't last long at all!

headshrink

October 21st, 2009, 09:43 AM

Well, when you put it that way, it actually makes a lot of sense.... thanks.

I am generally not an agressive driver/rider, but I do like to twist the throttle. Being a 250, I generally feel like I have to beat the hell out of it to do what I want it to do... that has got to suck a little fuel. Since shimming, but really mostly after removing the snorkle, I noticed I ride at a little higher RPM.... which may, in part, be because I lost my mid-range. (I used to cruise around town arounf 7-8K, now it tends to be 8-9K, sometimes 10k). Speed limit on many of the main roads here are 50 mph (add the reality factor to that), 50% hwy at 9K (I don't think this has changed since that keeps me in the same gear). I have a 15T that I am planning to put on that should help mpg on the hwy, although I understand not so much on the street since we ride at same or similar RPM.