Hi there. So, I just finished my first day on the range for the MSF (they split us into two 5-hour saturday classes). I did relatively well except for when it came to weaving. When it came to weaving in and out of the cones, I was not navigating them and this was due to fear of counter steering. Which is a bit silly, because I do it just fine cornering, but when I'm cornering, I do it naturally, I don't think about it. However, when I came up on those cones for the weaving, all I could think about was not screwing up and dropping the bike, I kept slowing down which didn't help at all, and then my brain just didn't want to work with "Well, I want to get left, so I'm going to push forward on my left handlebar to go left".

Anyone else have an initial mental fear of counter-steering? I'm all worried about dropping the bike or really screwing up on the final, so this week I'm grabbing my friends dirt bike and doing some practice with it. Rawr

I live for counter steering... love it! Check out "You Tube" there are lots of choices for instruction on Countersteering...... It will help while you sit here thinking it all through.:thumbup:

Counter steering, as taught by some instructors and read about online, is total BS. In normal everyday riding you are not pushing forward on the left bar to go left. You are pushing down on the left bar, to tilt the bike to the left, and thus go left. This makes perfect sense. Pushing forward on the left, thus turning the handlebars and front tire to the right, to go left in normal turning, is ridiculous.

That being said, quickly jabbing the left bar forward and bringing it back to center at speed will upset the balance of the bike, causing it to fall toward the left, which is quite conducive to swerving sharply to the left. That will help in the swerving exercise.

For the weaving exercise, I would concentrate more on moving your body weight around that what you do with the bars.

Counter steering, as taught by some instructors and read about online, is total BS. In normal everyday riding you are not pushing forward on the left bar to go left. You are pushing down on the left bar, to tilt the bike to the left, and thus go left. This makes perfect sense. Pushing forward on the left, thus turning the handlebars and front tire to the right, to go left in normal turning, is ridiculous.

That being said, quickly jabbing the left bar forward and bringing it back to center at speed will upset the balance of the bike, causing it to fall toward the left, which is quite conducive to swerving sharply to the left. That will help in the swerving exercise.

For the weaving exercise, I would concentrate more on moving your body weight around that what you do with the bars.
:confused:
You are SO wrong :eek:

Yeah, I have to agree with Steve. There is definitely truth to countersteering, I do it every time I ride. It's not ridiculous, it's physics. It's confusing, but it's a fact of riding. Oh, and the pushing down thing is incorrect. It's all a matter of perspective. If you actually push down on the bars, they won't move at all. You might cause a bit of a lean by doing that, which will create a turn, but it's much easier to push forward on that bar a bit. I sometimes pull on the right bar to turn left while I'm riding one-handed.

To the OP: It's normal to be freaked out about counter-steering. It's one of those things you just have to try to figure out. Don't worry about dropping the bike either. I dropped the ninjette I was riding for my MSF class, and I still passed. Just don't overstress too much. Relax, and just try it out. The more you feel it, the more you'll gain confidence. :D

umm yeah Reswob is wrong. His method makes sense in theory but not really in practice. It's exactly as the MSF teaches you, push left go left - push right go right. I also thought about counter steering alot after the MSF but it's much more easier at higher speeds and its easier on the ninja 250 than the cruisers you probably (?) rode. Just try it when you get out on the streets, It's not as apparant in the parking lot manuvers you did at 20mph max. You will get it once you start riding, don't worry about it now.

Focus on looking ahead instead of right at the cone in front of you, it'll help immensely.

I pull on the opposite handlebar as often as I push on the one in the direction I want to turn. :)

I like to demonstrate it by putting my hand vertically in front of the bar and moving forward and showing the IMMEDIATE reaction that the bike has. I then show the same thing by pulling the opposite bar with no part touching the inside surface and NO "grip" at all.

I've found that applying both pushing and pulling simultaneously to the opposite bars creates a faster and more controlled weave. Try it and see if it helps.

Even with countersteering, weaving feels very different at different speeds. On the Ninjette (EX250J at least), it's extremely responsive under 20MPH. By pushing and pulling simultaneously, you can weave left and right so quickly and to such a sharp degree that others will believe you have lost control!

Focus on looking ahead instead of right at the cone in front of you, it'll help immensely.

+1

it will come naturally, you counter steer on a bicycle when you turn you just do it so naturally that you dont notice it. just relax dont worry so much about dropping the bike, being stressed only tenses you upp and could cause you to make stupid mistakes,your bike will go where you want it to go by scanning ahead.

be one with the bike, relax yourself and just ride!!!!
soon when you ride your bike will be part of you , it will be like walking !!:thumbup:

Counter steering, as taught by some instructors and read about online, is total BS. In normal everyday riding you are not pushing forward on the left bar to go left. You are pushing down on the left bar, to tilt the bike to the left, and thus go left.

This is incorrect. Pushing straight down on the handlebar will do nothing to move the bike in any direction once the bike is at speed. Attempting to push down on the handlebar will in effect push it somewhat forward as the rider is sitting behind the bars and can't push it directly downward with any force without also pushing it forward. Turns out that the rider is just using excess energy, as the only motion that is affecting the bike is the forward vector.

It's one of the reasons there is so much emphasis on proper body position once the speeds ramp up, to make sure people bend their arms and drop them in such a way that they can push the bars as forward as possible as straight as possible; less wasted effort and the ability to be much more precise with steering inputs.

This is incorrect. Pushing straight down on the handlebar will do nothing to move the bike in any direction once the bike is at speed. Attempting to push down on the handlebar will in effect push it somewhat forward as the rider is sitting behind the bars and can't push it directly downward with any force without also pushing it forward. Turns out that the rider is just using excess energy, as the only motion that is affecting the bike is the forward vector.

It's one of the reasons there is so much emphasis on proper body position once the speeds ramp up, to make sure people bend their arms and drop them in such a way that they can push the bars as forward as possible as straight as possible; less wasted effort and the ability to be much more precise with steering inputs.

*slams gavel*

I also thought about counter steering alot after the MSF but it's much more easier at higher speeds and its easier on the ninja 250 than the cruisers you probably (?) rode.

Sadly, I didn't even get to be put on one of the eliminators. They put me on a Suzuki dr200se that did not like to shift into neutral when it was on.

Focus on looking ahead instead of right at the cone in front of you, it'll help immensely.

Yeah, sadly I figured this out about an hour after the weaving. Would have helped me much more had I been practicing that instead of looking at the cone I was about to run over :mad:

Notice the tire direction and the knee and the beginning of lean.

If you believe it is junk, go buy a scooter so you no longer need to counter steer.

watch the vid, notice what direction the wheel is pointing when its in the air, then notice the direction the bike leans when the wheel hits the ground.


Seems Rossi/stoner/pedrosa belive in it :D
http://www.motogp.com/en/videos/2009/Hyper+Slow+Motion+at+Sachsenring

a scooter so you no longer need to counter steer.

Also wrong. Anything with 2 wheels that track will countersteer, including bicycles etc.

Notice the tire direction and the knee and the beginning of lean.

Greg - those pictures aren't really showing how countersteering works to initiate a turn. What Duhamel is doing there is turning the bars quite a bit into the turn to manage the yaw rate as the rear wheel is already out of line with the front. The countersteering happened 50 yards back to help initiate the turn; the current placement of the front wheel is more about balancing the slide than anything else.

If it were all the weight "pressing down" on the side where you apply counter steering, then the "No BS" bike would function flawlessly without grabbing the real handlebars. If you don't believe in countersteering, one ride on that bike will set you straight really quickly.

Well it is nice that you all think that, but I've been riding bicycles all my life, you don't turn the bars at all, you just lean.

My instructor did teach us about counter steering, but he said don't think about it to much because it comes naturally. He just wanted us to be aware of what is happening with our bikes while we were out on the range. I've watched youtube videos about it and it made me more conscience of it which could be a bad thing when it comes to reaction time.

David

Well it is nice that you all think that, but I've been riding bicycles all my life, you don't turn the bars at all, you just lean.

Next time your out on your bike, just twich the bars to the right. The bike will want to tip left, at that quick moment, your suppose to turn left to follow thru. Visa Virsa.

If you have to think about it, it's probably not gonna work for ya. < You know in normal riding...... IDK

Well it is nice that you all think that, but I've been riding bicycles all my life, you don't turn the bars at all, you just lean.

The difference with bicycles is that the rider weight is so much more than the bicycle weight that simply leaning is enough to initiate the turn. The same does not hold true for a 400+ lb machine with the inertia of going down the road at highway speeds. Trying to lean the bike without providing any bar input is just not possible. Pushing straight down on the bars, if one could, doesn't provide any bar input.

If a rider doesn't understand how this works, or even is adamantly disagreeing about whether it exists or not, the rider simply can't progress as a motorcyclist and is on the verge of an "unexplained crash" when they aren't able to negotiate a turn and head straight into the weeds wondering what they did wrong. Don't be that guy. How many miles do you have on a motorcycle at this point?

Counter steering...... It's like a dance.

You can analyze it and dissect it but you also have to feel it.

Last week's foot of snow here in Labrador disappeared last night in a warm overnight rain. I went out for an hour or so in the afternoon for the last ride of the season. For the last km or so I danced with the machine. Not at a great speed but just weaving back and forth slowly across the road. No other cars around....all by myself. I felt one with the bike. There was a new noise in my helmet and I realized I was whistling a tune to myself. Such a wonderful way to end the season.

By the way.....I was counter steering.

Take Care

When you press the bar forward lets say the right bar, the tire turns slightly to left and the bike "falls" to the right, you have therefore initiated a turn using countersteering.

I found this article on another forum. Hopefully, it will help others who are having a hard time understanding counter-steering.

==================================================

There are always questions about what the "counter" in counter-steering really means. Catharsis happened for me when I did the following, which reinforces your observation:

In the first image below, you are driving your bike at 15-20mph in a straight line and where there is nobody else on the road or in the parking lot. You then drop your left hand and push with your right palm on the end of the handlebar. The purpose of this is to emphasize that you are attempting to steer the handlebars left, around its pivot.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=278&pictureid=2623

Almost immediately upon exerting pressure on the bar end with the palm, the bike begins to lean right and starts to turn.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=278&pictureid=2624

Honestly, I didn't really "get it" until I tried this. What I learned is that the action of pushing outward on the right grip with the right hand is causing the handlebars to rotate left about its pivot, just as when you push on the right grip with your palm. So the "counter" (opposite) in "counter steering" is the fact that you are steering opposite the direction that you wish to turn, quite literally.

To further illustrate you point about the other arm tensing and working against your intended action, imagine for a moment that you are pushing on BOTH handlebar ends with the palms of your hands:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=278&pictureid=2625

Now it's obvious. You are canceling the pivot generated by the right hand with the left hand.

My opinion is that literature that says "push in the direction you want to turn" seems to consistently omit any discussion about handlebars pivoting (which is what steering really is) and hence the reader is likely to miss where "counter" enters the picture. Once that is understood, your point about pushing hard with one hand only starts to make enormous sense: The more aggressively you try to COUNTER-steer (pivot the handlebars left), the more aggressively the bike will lean and turn right.

Well it is nice that you all think that, but I've been riding bicycles all my life, you don't turn the bars at all, you just lean.

:mad2: REALLY! REALLY! A BIKE AND A MOTORCYCLE ARE NOT THE SAME :mad: you really should not be allowed to give advice to anyone :mad:

Here's a great demonstration of the importance of counter-steering. In the video, Keith Code rides a bike with two sets of handlebars. One set of handlebars is not connected to the wheel, so it completely separates body motion from imperceptible steering inputs.

In the first clip, Keith tries to steer the bike with the handlebars not connected to the wheel. You can see as he tries to jerk the bike around and hang off the side, nothing really steers the bike. It changes direction slightly, but you couldn't get around a track like that.

In the second clip, Keith uses the normal handlebars and it looks like zero body movement. You can see how quickly counter-steering changes the bike's direction back and forth, how sharp and controlled it is.

3nRUeEkS644

In this video I'm doing the same thing, flicking the bike back and forth with 100% counter-steering, 0% body movement. Try replicating this quick steering with Keith Code's No BS Bike--ain't gonna happen.

QkdMKqw-GOE

Well it is nice that you all think that, but I've been riding bicycles all my life, you don't turn the bars at all, you just lean.

:rotflmao:

I'm willing to bet that nearly 50% of us have been riding bicycles our entire lives and the other 50% at least rode them until they were teenagers and got other wheels.

That said, countersteering is the easiest thing in the world to prove to yourself: Go out there, get on your bike, accelerate to 25MPH, let go of the handle bars and push one of them forward with a single finger from behind the bar (no way you are puttin weight "down" on the bar).

Don't feel bad admitting you were wrong. People who have been motorcycling for decades believe that and have sworn it until they got on the No BS Bike or proved it to themselves. It comes so naturally people simply do not know that they are doing it. The advantage of *knowing* how it works is being able to use it in an emergency and being able to give accurate information/advice to other riders, so please stop misinforming people and just try it yourself.

All I can say is that I had tons of trouble with the u-turns in class, now that ive been riding for about a month and been practicing basics its much easier as you feel more comfortable with the bike you are on. Its trusting your skills and your bike and knowing the correct way to do it. Its actually easier than you think like the guys said, but its hard to let go and just do it. Good luck!

For the weaving exercise, I would concentrate more on moving your body weight around that what you do with the bars.

One of the bike mags disproved this shifting weight thing years ago with a rig like the Keith Code one shown above- with a set of handlebars welded to the frame, riders could hardly make the bike change direction at all by shifting their weight.

Countersteering is quite real.

Chris

Counter-steering comes so natural that you may be doing it in your daily ride and not even realize that you are doing it.

:pop2:

I bet Chuck Norris doesn't need to counter steer

Chuck Norris can make anyone believe in countersteering without using a diagram. And do his dishes.

Chuck Norris does not get the respect he deserves for helping to popularize martial arts in the U.S.

:focus:

:pop2:

:rotflmao: :pound:

:whathesaid:

Its even simpler put this way(although complex to read, like half the things I post on here >.<), and proves WHY countersteering does WHAT it does.
Take your mom's highlander, bring it to 40mph, and CRANK the wheel to the left. Which way is the car going to LEAN? Not with the direction of the turn, it'll lean to the outside. BUT - having 4 wheels, this is what MAKES a car go in that direction. It forces the weight onto the tires, including the front, which are naturally going to force the car in the direction they are pointing. Cars are capable of doing this because the lean doesnt affect your direction of travel, seeing as you have another set of wheels on the other side to keep the car balanced upright (exception: "Scandinavian flick", another great example of countersteering, though! :-P)
Now, take two wheels OUT of the equation. You have 2 wheels left. You turn the bars hard LEFT - which way is the bike going to LEAN? to the RIGHT. Because of a bike's geometry with rake/forks and trail, and that you've only got 2 tires to work on, the geometry of the contact patches and trail is going to make it SMALLER on the "leaning" side, and Wider on the outside. Seem familar? Its like how a skateboard turns, but without having 2 trucks to work with, youve got two contact patches instead. Its also why you can pull the front wheel off the pavement and somewhat continue the turn, however have fun when that sucker reconnects again...:p

:whathesaid: Well put.

When I got my first bike, a 70s Kawasaki 350 Triple, I did not know counter-steering, and used only my body-wright to lean the bike (as per a bicycle), and in one corner, I could not lean the bike lower enough, and went off the road. COUNTER-STEERING is a necessary safety technique at speeds higher than 10 mph, and has the highest fun quotient at any speed.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x70/AnthonyMarr/Countersteering20pic-1.jpg

does the wheel actually point towards the turn at high speed? I ask this only because in paying close attention to my hand movments, it seems that the harder i push the bar(s) opposite, the TIGHTER the bike turns/leans. But according to the wheel principle pictured above, this would mean that me countersteering MORE would result in LESS lean and LESS turning, yes? Or is it actually a combination of both?
Now I'm the one confused...of course its such a obscenely small movement with the hands in practice, and your sensory strip is overloaded with "zoom" and "lean" inputs that it really can't pay attention to your hand positions at that point in time that its hard to tell, and a leaned bike you can almost never see the wheel turned at ALL.

does the wheel actually point towards the turn at high speed? I ask this only because in paying close attention to my hand movments, it seems that the harder i push the bar(s) opposite, the TIGHTER the bike turns/leans. But according to the wheel principle pictured above, this would mean that me countersteering MORE would result in LESS lean and LESS turning, yes? Or is it actually a combination of both?
Now I'm the one confused...of course its such a obscenely small movement with the hands in practice, and your sensory strip is overloaded with "zoom" and "lean" inputs that it really can't pay attention to your hand positions at that point in time that its hard to tell, and a leaned bike you can almost never see the wheel turned at ALL.

You use counter-steering to initiate the turn by setting the lean angle. Once the lean as been achieved, you steer into the turn, while using counter-steering to continuously adjust the lean angle. So if you need to increase the lean angle during the turn, you have to counter-steer some more. This is a necessary technique if, say, you entered a turn faster than you had intended for the curvature of the turn. If you try to slow down after having entered the turn, your bike will tend to stand up and you will go off the road on a left turn, or run into oncoming traffic on a right turn. In this case, the best if not only way to get through the turn unscathed is to ride it out, and that means to increase the lean angle by counter-steering. There is usually enough room for extra leaning before something solid begins to scrape the asphalt. At severe lean, you might have to add throttle, in which case it must be smooth to prevent losing rear traction.

When I got my first bike, a 70s Kawasaki 350 Triple, I did not know counter-steering, and used only my body-wright to lean the bike (as per a bicycle), and in one corner, I could not lean the bike lower enough, and went off the road. COUNTER-STEERING is a necessary safety technique at speeds higher than 10 mph, and has the highest fun quotient at any speed.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x70/AnthonyMarr/Countersteering20pic-1.jpg

I agree. I also went off the rode in my first accident due to lack of counter steering. I understood it, but did not trust it. Too used to how bicycles work. Leaning with just your body weight will only lead to your demise.

Until a new rider understands how counter steering works to its fullest, and can basically get a knee down, they shouldn't do any real riding. There are certain points where you are going to NEED more lean. Thus why knee dragging on the street is not a good idea, along with the other obvious reasons.

If it helps, think of how a race car driver will make many tiny adjustments to the steering wheel during a turn. He will not just keep a smooth turn on the wheel. Basically doing the same thing with counter steering during a turn. Once you get your lean angle in, you will stop counter steering (pointing into the turn) and then use counter steering to get back out of the turn. The wheel will be pointing through the turn sometime around the apex.

I am not sure if anyone has explained it properly yet. They may have, but after reading this at work. I thought I would screw around on the way home. It comes naturally to me and I use it to scrub the tyres in.

The force you apply isnt a direct push, but rather a gentle push with a slight downward (angular). If you try and just push it it just wants to wiggle and do an ociliscope style thing, trying to stay upright while smoothing out your wiggle.

The force you apply isnt a direct push, but rather a gentle push with a slight downward (angular)

The "downward angle" you may or may not push with has nothing to do with steering. only the part that turns the handlebars matters -- see the "No BS" bike above. The oscillation you're feeling is probably due to you releasing pressure on the bars slightly because you don't want to eat pavement from continuing to lean over (I sure can't blame you!) :)

The "downward angle" you may or may not push with has nothing to do with steering. only the part that turns the handlebars matters -- see the "No BS" bike above. The oscillation you're feeling is probably due to you releasing pressure on the bars slightly because you don't want to eat pavement from continuing to lean over (I sure can't blame you!) :)But your not actually turning them as such. It's more like a pressure applied then a turn.

Counter-steering explained:

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/Teaching/Steering.htm

There is no downward pressue at all. As a test do this. If you believe that to turn left you press left with downward pressure (which will turn the bike left due to the pressing left, not the downward pressure), then do this - with only your right hand on the bar, pull the right grip back (slightly) and downward. The bike will still go left. This is due to the bar being pressed, turning the tire, rather than downward pressure,

The force you apply isnt a direct push, but rather a gentle push with a slight downward (angular). If you try and just push it it just wants to wiggle and do an ociliscope style thing, trying to stay upright while smoothing out your wiggle.

The handle bar can only move forward and backward, not up and down. Granted, the force from the arm and hand goes slightly downward, but the handle bar will move forward, not downward.

We are not talking about using downward force to force that side of the bike down. We are talking about pushing the handle bar forward, literally, so that the front wheel will track outward (of the curve), thus leaning the bike inward (of the curve).

Say, if the curve goes to the right, you push the right handle bar FORWARD. This points the front wheel to the left. The bottom of the bike follows left, but the top of the bike doesn't, so it "falls" to the right. Thus, the bike is leaned to the right. Once the lean angle is set, then you can steer the bike with that lean towards the right.

It is not exactly a hard push forward. Just a light pressure. Do it with some finesse and the bike won't wriggle or oscillate. It will just lean.

And in the case of the Bimota Tesi, leaning the bar up and down would do nothing.

Chuck Norris does not get the respect he deserves for helping to popularize martial arts in the U.S.

Most forget he actually was a Karate champ (Long Beach Nationals) before he became a movie and tv star. Though he always plays a Marine I believe he was in the Air Force when he began to study martial arts...and flunked his black belt test first time.

I thought Chuck Norris was just a punch dummy for Bruce Lee. You mean he actually had a real career?

I thought Chuck Norris was just a punch dummy for Bruce Lee. You mean he actually had a real career?

Hey haven't seen you on here in a while.

I thought Chuck Norris was just a punch dummy for Bruce Lee. You mean he actually had a real career?

Norris did have a string of movies in the form of being a commando in Vietnam, and did a good job. I think he has done a significant amount for the martial arts IRL and on the screen. His unassuming air of honesty, courage, loyalty and justice also set a good tone for young martial artists. I do have difference with his political views.

It is said that the fight between him and Bruce Lee in Return of The Dragon was no-holds-barred and REAL, and that he did get walloped by Lee. However, Lee is now dead, and Norris is still alive.

It is said that the fight between him and Bruce Lee in Return of The Dragon was no-holds-barred and REAL, and that he did get walloped by Lee. However, Lee is now dead, and Norris is still alive.

Also little known is Norris was Bruce Lee's apprentice for a while, hence where he learned most of his art...

Boy am I out of the loop