This project started out as a "what if" that turned into a self-imposed technical challenge/quest and ended up eating my spare time throughout late October and all of November. It's done, it runs, and now all I have to do is slowly perfect the fueling tables (with my laptop computer).

Here's a tour of the bike. (It was 32 degrees F in the driveway this afternoon and I was so cold I could hardly think or talk, so bear with me).

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Greg

Nice piece of work Greg - this is going to get a lot of hits and questions. Was I reading the ODO right ~9900 miles on your '05?

What gave you the urge to take on this challenge?

:thumbup:

Keep us posted on the tuning.

....but it's not my fault.

I bought it in the summer of 2007 with 3,600 miles on it, so I've only had it for two years. I don't get to ride it every day because I travel a lot in my profession(s) (airline pilot, air national guard pilot).

It was owned from new by a woman in a nearby neighborhood who teaches 9th and 10th grade math at the local High School. She broke it in carefully, didn't ride it much, never dropped it, and had all the proper maintenance done on time. It was always garaged and lovingly washed and waxed.

I couldn't have gotten a better deal when I bought it.

She didn't want to sell it, and actually got teary-eyed when I paid her for it. Her husband wanted a big expensive Liter-bike and the money from the EX-250 sale was obviously going to help finance it. Her part of the deal in this Liter-bike action was that he was giving her his old, road-rashed, broken-fairinged, mangled-levered, dented-exhaust canned, Super Sport 600.

Very nice work Greg. Thanks for sharing the video's.

Pretty cool :thumbup:

i'm floored.

Wow. Care to write all that up into a DIY? :p

It would be neat to watch people take my example and improve upon it. Because you know there are guys out there that could do it better. All you have to do is show them the "box" and they'll "think outside" of it.

If it's acceptable to the moderators to put it up, you could go here

http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?t=79479&start=0&postdays=&postorder=&highlight=

(moderator, if this isn't kosher just delete it, or tell me and I will)

Wow Greg, that's amazing work. Keep us updated as you progress through the project.

btw, I hate the way the thread is displayed on 250org board.

Very nice work.

sweet greg!!!

put some heat shrink on them relays!!!:)

How's life at fairchild AFB?

wow...you get on wi' cha bad self!!!!

Wow that's incredible. Fantastic work!

Nice work, Greg. I may have to do mine now that you make it look so easy. :D

Someone else used the MicroSquirt on a turbo'ed N250:

http://www.stuntlife.com/forums/224-disturbed-riders/246851-turbo-ninja-250r-build.html

Unfortunately, no dyno graphs posted from it. :(

Wow. :bow:

Greg, what a project...wow...would it be okay if I worship you like a God? :bow: :D

Very impressive.

Here's another idea - turn the carbs into throttle bodies:

http://roadstercycle.com/yamaha_vmax_fuel_injector_cv_car.htm

Greg, what type of a/f meter (oxygen sensor) are you using?
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The sensor itself is a Bosch LSU 4.2 (5-wire).

I plumbed it in with an extended-length bung to avoid restricting the relatively small-diameter exhaust tube.

I'm using an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 digital wideband controller and a standalone guage.

Greg,

Assuming you had to buy all the parts for this and could sell off your used carbs, approximately what would the net cost would be? Also, how much weight would it add?

What kind of horsepower and/or driveability gains are there over the stock carbs? It'd be interesting to see hp / torque / AF graphs for the same bike with well-tuned carbs vs. a well-tuned fuel injection system.

I love to tinker and have already upgraded the intake and exhaust on my bike and started doing some minor weight loss / aesthetic mods, but I just wonder about the cost vs. the benefit of changing the fuel system to FI.

From a black box point of view, it would be nice not to have to fiddle with a petcock or choke lever, but what about the performance out on the road?

At this point it would be tough to go back and reconstruct a full-up listing of the cost for each item. I wasn't exactly keeping track as I gathered the parts and did the work, plus some of it came from a friend in San Antonio.

Just a wild-assed guess would be somewhere between $1,700 and $2,000 all-inclusive (if you want to count the 2-into-1 exhaust).

I didn't give much thought to money while I was doing this. It was "mad money." Just discretionary spending.

The only weight issue was how many pounds the bike lost when I got rid of the stock exhausts and the center stand. I would guess the injection equipment doesn't weigh but a few pounds more than the carb equipment (just the fuel pump, pressure regulator, and fuel filter are "extra" weight compared to the carb version).

As far as power is concerned I haven't gotten the bike to a "full power" state of tuning yet. The weather has gone snowy here in Spokane so riding has been impossible lately. But even in it's "rough" state of tune the bike feels at least as lively as the carburated version.

I think it's going to be great when I get it dialed in. I know a guy who injected a Honda CB-750 and it's throttle response is absolutely razor-sharp.

The warnings I would give to anyone who might even think about doing a fuel injection project are as follows:

Don't do it if you need your bike for daily transportation (it takes a while),

don't do it if spending money on your EX-250 bothers or embarrasses you,

don't do it if anyone has ever accused you of not having enough patience (because you're going to need a lot of patience just to get through the wiring process),

don't do it if you get frustrated easily,

don't do it if your wife or girlfriend gets jealous of anything that takes up your time.

I'd love to do it and I'm sure I'd appreciate its advantages, but I think it's just the cost that's got me turned off a little. I wonder if it'd be any cheaper to get a hold of the rest of the foreign-spec FI goodies like you did with the TBs and then just graft those into a US bike... Any idea what kind of flow rate those injectors are spec'ed at?

I hear you about the snow. We just got 13" between yesterday and today. :peep:

Next projects are an Acumen gear indicator and repaint, but I'm keeping FI on the possibilities list...

Keep us posted on any updates. :thumbup:

The injectors, which are from the European EX-250, flow about 210cc/min at 43psi. This is my estimate. I figured this out by running injector flow tests after I had all the equipment installed on the bike.

I couldn't find any specification for EX-250 injector flow rate available anywhere on the web or in print to tell me this. I guess Kawasaki doesn't feel that anyone (beyond their own engineers) needs to know this information, because injector flow rate isn't a statistic that would impress the average sportbike buyer or sell more bikes if Kawasaki were to publish it. Also, the injectors are built in Japan under license from Bosch (they're a Bosch design), and they don't have standard Bosch markings on them (which can normally be looked up to learn information like flow rate, max operating pressure, and whether it's high or low impedance).

About the money issue: I believe that we all have things we blow money on just for fun. Here's an example of the problem this causes. I've got a friend/neighbor who smokes a lot (and I mean a LOT) of weed. This guy will (quite regularly) stand in my garage (usually after his Saturday morning "bake") while I'm working on my bike and casually lecture me on "wasting" my money and time. Yeah, the guy who spends untold amounts of money on weed is lecturing me on my motorcycle project! And I've never said a word to him about the money he spends on his weed. It's his thing, I understand that, but obviously he doesn't.

I've had people on (the other Ninja) forum try to shame me or discount my projects based on the money they cost. These same people almost certainly have things they "waste" money on, but not on their Ninja, so in their little minds they decide that nobody should "waste" money on a Ninja project.

About the idea of doing a full Euro-spec EX-250 transplant. There are problems with that idea. I may have time to mention them later, but right now I've gotta catch a flight.

Xcellent work! It's really nice to see stuff like this :thumbup: And to think... you were doing some of it while on a contact buzz! :p

The injectors, which are from the European EX-250, flow about 210cc/min at 43psi. This is my estimate. I figured this out by running injector flow tests after I had all the equipment installed on the bike.

I couldn't find any specification for EX-250 injector flow rate available anywhere on the web or in print to tell me this. I guess Kawasaki doesn't feel that anyone (beyond their own engineers) needs to know this information, because injector flow rate isn't a statistic that would impress the average sportbike buyer or sell more bikes if Kawasaki were to publish it. Also, the injectors are built in Japan under license from Bosch (they're a Bosch design), and they don't have standard Bosch markings on them (which can normally be looked up to learn information like flow rate, max operating pressure, and whether it's high or low impedance).

About the money issue: I believe that we all have things we blow money on just for fun. Here's an example of the problem this causes. I've got a friend/neighbor who smokes a lot (and I mean a LOT) of weed. This guy will (quite regularly) stand in my garage (usually after his Saturday morning "bake") while I'm working on my bike and casually lecture me on "wasting" my money and time. Yeah, the guy who spends untold amounts of money on weed is lecturing me on my motorcycle project! And I've never said a word to him about the money he spends on his weed. It's his thing, I understand that, but obviously he doesn't.

I've had people on (the other Ninja) forum try to shame me or discount my projects based on the money they cost. These same people almost certainly have things they "waste" money on, but not on their Ninja, so in their little minds they decide that nobody should "waste" money on a Ninja project.

About the idea of doing a full Euro-spec EX-250 transplant. There are problems with that idea. I may have time to mention them later, but right now I've gotta catch a flight.


LOL I spend money on my mybike and the herb...those guy's can surely be pricks at the "other forum" So far in all my considerable 250 searches your F.I. conversion is one of my favs! Too bad he can't share while he lectures you. Damn I bet pilot's pee in cups rather often

Cool - thanks for the injector info. That will come in handy when looking at injectors / pumps / filters.

I think my problem with the money is I have too many things I'm into - home improvement projects, project car, guns, tattoos, cutting trees and firewood, ATV maintenance, etc. Sometimes it's overwhelming when I look at all the crap I've got in the basement and garage, but it's rewarding when you can create and modify things the way you want, maintain your home and vehicles yourself, and when certain skills carry over from one thing to another.

The FI conversion is certainly not a waste, IMHO. It sounds like it runs nicely, is much easier to tune than carbs, and I'm sure you've learned quite a bit in the process of doing it (thanks for sharing, BTW). I just need to find a way to make it a little bit cheaper in order to justify it to myself... :D

Hope you have a safe flight.

It's not about money. It's the experience and doing the thing you like and enjoy the rewards after...everyone can shell out the money and import an fi straight from europe...
Excellent work Greg. Keep us posted on the tuning and more pic please :)
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Damn I bet pilot's pee in cups rather often

Yeah, between my two flying jobs, Southwest Airlines and the Air National Guard, I pee in cups all the time. In fact, if you hand me a cup you're liable to get a urine sample back. I actually find it a bit offensive/degrading to be tested all the time. I like to fight back just a bit. Every time I get "randomly selected" for a screen I tell the person administering the testing "Hey, you're in luck. I'm in a position to upgrade to you a stool sample!" I never get any takers on the offer, but I think they understand my meaning.


Keep us posted on the tuning and more pic please

Well, I've got plenty of pictures. Just tell me when you've seen enough!

Since we were discussing parts of the system as I built it, here's a lineup of some of the major pieces:


The fuel pump is a Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer unit. I was worried about the fuel pump choice because the EX-250 doesn't have a lot of extra electrical power available. I needed a pump big enough for the job, but really easy on the amperage. This pump is great on all counts: very available on Ebay, low electrical draw, easy to mount, plenty of pressure/volume for the job. (Switching to LED lights in the bike's brakelight cluster covered the fuel pump's draw. My voltmeter shows high 12s to mid 13s at idle)
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/SuzukiQuadracerLTR450fuelpump-1.jpg

Here's how it looks mounted to the bike. Yeah, the bracket is ugly. It's just a temporary solution. I'm working on a cleaner, better looking setup. Not that it's visible to anyone because it's totally hidden up under the fuel tank's bottom hump.
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday2Oct003-1.jpg

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday2Oct002.jpg


I stuck with the Suzuki LT-R450 source for the fuel pressure regulator. It mounted up easily in my application. You've got three lines to plumb: high pressure input line from the fuel pump (about 50psi), high pressure output line to the fuel rail (43psi), and low pressure excess return back to the fuel pump input line.
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/fuelpressureregulator9900pic.jpg

The fuel filter was a bit of a puzzle for me. I eventually settled on a 1992 Honda Accord filter. I realized I needed a filter that had the inlet and outlet on the same end so I could bury it through the bottom of the old airbox floor. I needed it to mount in an out of the way place because I was trying to set the whole system up in a way that would allow me to remove and replace any piece of the system without having to take the rest of it apart. It hangs down just to the right of upper shock mount.
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday2Oct027.jpg

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday2Oct030.jpg

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday2Oct031.jpg

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday3Novt016.jpg

So :cool:. Fantastic work... :thumbup:

Man..this is like porn. Keep 'em coming :D
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There's lot's of little power draws for things like the injectors, the fast idle valve, the fuel pump, the oxygen sensor and it's controller, the MicroSquirt itself, etc. Every bit of it has to be "key switched" power.

So I installed an ignition key-switched auxilliary power panel. It sits on the left hand side of the bike between the CDI and the coolant reservior.

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday4Novt019.jpg

Here's a picture of the relay that controls the whole thing. It uses the horn circuit to provide trigger power to the relay. It's the one on the left above the fuse box (the one on the right is the fuel pump relay).

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday4Novt004.jpg

Here's a picture of the main fairing (off the bike while the work was being done). This shows the mounting for my clock and the Air/Fuel ratio guage. The Air/Fuel ratio guage gives instantaneous feedback on the bike's performance, letting me know at a glance if my tuning is working out correctly. For example, if I'm cruising with a small throttle opening the proper tune would result in a lean mixture (for fuel efficiency) of about 16 to 1 air/fuel ratio.

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ProjectPicturesday4Novt005.jpg

Awesome greg.
once your bike is tunned, you'll still have to use th wide band o2 sensor or will you be swapping out to a regular one? I heard if you use the wide band for normal use, it'll burn out fast.

i can attest to that, I have burned through a bosch five wire (the sensor that came with the LC-1) in about 20K miles in my WRX. I replaced the rear stock narrowband lambda with the wideband unit and ran it all the time and it lasted about the 20K above. The new one I will only keep in the exhaust for tuning session and track/autox time.

OH and this thread freakin delivers: excellent job on your FI setup.

aloha greg, is my first time reading through this thread detailing your impressive work. thanx for taking the time to document and share as you have so far.

i wanna know when is the hover conversion kit gonna be ready for installation? :D

:ride:

:plane:

:usa2:

I keep on learning things about the fuel injection game. I may have successfully "fuel infected" my EX-250, but there's still a lot for me to learn.

i can attest to that, I have burned through a bosch five wire (the sensor that came with the LC-1) in about 20K miles in my WRX.

Your mention of the fact that Wideband sensors don't have a very long lifespan is news to me. However, I do remember reading where guys were tuning their engines on the wideband and then switching to a cheaper narrow band sensor once they had the engine running sweet, but I didn't realize the reason was sensor life.

The weather in Spokane has been crappy for most of December so I haven't been able to work on getting my new fuel injection setup properly tuned. It ran fine in early December when I posted the Youtube videos, everything works correctly, just not tuned to a fine point.

I haven't been able to ride it for much of December due to the weather (and my In-Laws have been in town for over two weeks, just kill me now!). You have to ride it to be able to take datalogs which you then use to tweak the MicroSquirt's tables to a really sharp level of tuning.

Here's hoping I can ride it during January and February. I want it to be "full-up" by springtime.

some may give me a hard time for this greg....but any chance of a dyno run??????

Why spend money on a dyno when he already has wideband?
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i was power curious is all, a o2 sensor doesn't do the trick

I understand your interest in seeing dyno numbers on a classic EX-250 with fuel injection. When I've got the thing all wraped up, perfectly tuned, and I call it "officially finished" I'll probably end up wanting to see the numbers myself.

Although, I really wouldn't expect to see anything very surprising. I didn't go into this project with horsepower as a goal, and the benefits of fuel injection are mainly realized in things like better throttle response. I just wanted to do it and see it work. To take it from "what if" to "my daily ride"

I understand your interest in seeing dyno numbers on a classic EX-250 with fuel injection. When I've got the thing all wraped up, perfectly tuned, and I call it "officially finished" I'll probably end up wanting to see the numbers myself.

Although, I really wouldn't expect to see anything very surprising. I didn't go into this project with horsepower as a goal, and the benefits of fuel injection are mainly realized in things like better throttle response. I just wanted to do it and see it work. To take it from "what if" to "my daily ride"

well I'd say your well on your way!

Wonderful, glad to see a great project like this done so well.

more update please :)

I love FI.. I can't wait for some drop in FI kit available to rip out my carb and put in the FI...

Greg, brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!

This might be a silly question, but what is the "stock A/F" set at. I mean, the number that Kawi designs for/around. 12:1? 14:1? And how is this number affected by what you expect from the bike. For instance, under greater throttle position sensor values, does it lean out the mixture = mo powa = greater accel, and at smaller throttle position sensor values it richens it back up to cool the engine down a bit, or are your values not that exacerbated?

I'm very interested in this, very much for the same reasons you were/are. Tinkering with something and making it better than the factory provided is, without taking into account the green of course, is what I really like to do.

updates?

I've got a couple of videos. One was short (about 4 minutes) that I shot because I really liked the way the bike sounds. I mounted the camera about mid-bike so the mike could get both the "intake honk" from the FI throttlebody breathing in through the K&N 0990 filter and the exhaust sound from the Area P long-quiet SS system. So the view during the video was only of my boot. It got a bit of a confused reaction. Oh well.

I posted it on page 3 of the " EFI KIT for our 250r " thread over in the 2008+ forum which I see you've visited so I'm pretty sure you've seen it. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74579&page=3. Of course the video sounds better on a computer with good speakers, a laptop just doesn't cut it. As you can tell from the clip the bike runs great, so far I couldn't be happier with my experiment. It pulls hard to 13,500 RPM (as high as I'm willing to regularly take it).

The other video I'm still putting together is a walk-through explaination of the bits and pieces and how I put them all together. I haven't uploaded it yet. It's pretty long which may cause the short-attention-span crowd some problems. Might get a few snarky comments just like my "boot-ride sound clip" video, but regardless I do plan to have it up within a few days.

Well, project status: In late winter, spring and summer I've been riding it a pretty good bit, getting the Volumetric Efficiency and Air/Fuel ratio tables tuned and learning a thing or two about how the bike performs. When the summer temperatures arrived I found that the bike's fuel system had a little heat problem.

Somewhere in the plumbing of the fuel system there's one spot that heats up the most and it vaporizes the fuel at that location. Since the fuel pump isn't capable of pumping fuel vapor (rather than liquid fuel) the bike stalls. I have to wait by the roadside for about 5 or so minutes while the lines cool and it will crank right up again. On the highway it has never done this, even on the hottest day we've had this year, but during low speed criusing or stop-and-go it's a problem.

Obviously the fuel system falls just short of having enough cooling effect but I'm confident the fuel cooler will knock off enough heat energy to keep it running in any type of riding with any air temperature Mother nature can dish out.

The bike ran great in the late winter and spring, both around town and on longer (70-100 mile) rides. But it just can't handle slow riding speeds at temps above about 86 degrees.

The bike's fuel system is loops back on itself, but never returns to the fuel tank. When I was originally laying out the system I knew that there could possibly be fuel heating problems so I did two things: 1. I purchased a very small fluid cooler (Flexalite 4130) to modify (shorten by cutting it down) and install if necessary, and 2. I left room right under the K&N Air Filter to mount the cooler.

I'll include the fuel cooler work in my "walk around" video.

now that is officially the most ingenious thing I have EVER seen done to a pre-gen 250. Congrats on the hard work and time and thought actually becoming a reality. Until Kawi comes out with an injected 250 for the states, or I actually have the money to have a euro-spec bike imported, I will :drool: and dream about your bike of awesomeness. :thumbup:

i love it