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Kawi saying that they will not be offering any gas only bikes by 2035 for developed nations. 2035 will get here sooner than we think. These deadlines have a history of moving around over time, but it does seem that it's just a matter of when rather than if.

Even so, Kawasaki has committed to launching 10 new electric motorcycles by 2025, meaning the company has just barely four years to roll out more models than the leading electric motorcycle manufacturer has developed in well over a decade.

Then by 2035, Kawasaki has committed to only selling electric motorcycles in the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, and Japan.

Having spent a bit of seat-time on a Zero, I am all for it. Electric bikes are really groundbreaking and a blast to ride. I can't wait for companies like Kawasaki to start making them reasonable options for the average rider.

As far as the eventual demise of the ICE, I can't say I'm losing sleep over it. The writing has been on the wall for some time, and I've already lost interest in the over-tech'd bikes flooding the market now that are getting more and more difficult to fix in your garage. That's why a lot of us have carburated 250s after all.

Having spent a bit of seat-time on a Zero, I am all for it. Electric bikes are really groundbreaking and a blast to ride. I can't wait for companies like Kawasaki to start making them reasonable options for the average rider.

As far as the eventual demise of the ICE, I can't say I'm losing sleep over it. The writing has been on the wall for some time, and I've already lost interest in the over-tech'd bikes flooding the market now that are getting more and more difficult to fix in your garage. That's why a lot of us have carburated 250s after all.

That never going to start happing unless they start making more reasonable price bike for the rider that is someone who is working at Fast-Food places barely making end meats and they lack the ranges and fast changing and doesn't take into count for all the other problem associated with it.
Also there are major things that need to happing as the current electrical grid will not be unable to handle this if you factor in all type vehicle which after all look at what Calif is pushing now stop new sale on small gas engine and there even rumors of Calif wanting to ban all gas vehicle on the road way.

It's not a rumor. There was already an executive order in place requiring cars sold to be zero-emission by 2035. There's a current push now to move the date up to 2030 instead. New York has passed a similar law, which isn't surprising as its one of the 11 states that moved to adopt CARB rules awhile back, and these regulations are being defined and implemented via CARB rules. Some of the debate now is what percentage of these cars can be plug-in hybrids. Initially it was thought to be zero percent, but as the rules are being further defined, it probably won't be zero. Europe has banned gas cars as of 2035. Even China is going all-electric by 2035, 40% by 2030.

Pretty much all automakers are on board at this point, and only quibbling about timing rather than the direction. Like anything planned in the future, these dates might move - but betting on none of this happening and manufacturers/regulators/customers around the world all agreeing to say f**k it and just keep producing gas cars (and motorcycles) is not a likely outcome.

I have not read the infrastructure bill but I would imagine that in order people to be able to afford the initial cost of going electric there will have to be tax rebates on the purchase and installation of home charging stations.

Husband and I bought an electric car in 2014. We got a rebate on the purchase, and something similar for the charging station that we paid an electrician to put in. He also bought an electric motorcycle (Brammo, later Victory Empulse).

I got to try the electric bike a few months back and other than being taller than I like, it was nice. Quiet, smooth. I worried about scratching it which made me more nervous than I should have been.

Infrastructure and charging systems are the only issue for me, but those will obviously improve in the next few years as these mandates start to get phased in. Most of my rides are 4hr+ in a day, and having to wait with lvl1 charging for hours in the middle of a relaxing ride is a no go. Once they kick up to lvl3 for <10k new then I'll be happy. Like shspvr was saying, affordability for most people is a really big problem right now, but should go down with production (hopefully) at the cost of range. It'll be awesome when/if all gas stations have charging stations, too, because there's also almost nowhere to charge around here.

Having spent a bit of seat-time on a Zero, I am all for it. Electric bikes are really groundbreaking and a blast to ride. I can't wait for companies like Kawasaki to start making them reasonable options for the average rider.

As far as the eventual demise of the ICE, I can't say I'm losing sleep over it. The writing has been on the wall for some time, and I've already lost interest in the over-tech'd bikes flooding the market now that are getting more and more difficult to fix in your garage. That's why a lot of us have carburated 250s after all.

I've ridden a couple of Zero's and the Harley Livewire.

They are a ton of fun to ride, I'd own a Livewire if they were cheaper. They also need more fast DC charging infrastructure before they are really a viable alternative to gas powered bikes.

The quick-chargers are amazing. We use them with the car. Goes to full in 30 min.

I think big breakthrough will be interchangeable battery-packs for instant refills at service-stations. The Japanese bike manufacturers are collaborating their designs around that. Hopefully automakers will as well.

And range should be next goal. Tesla's been focusing on getting more instantaneous power out of their cars and boasting faster and faster 1/4-mile drag-race times. How important is that for most people? How often do you do 1/4-mile drag-races during your commute? Range is more important and I'd love to see 1000-mile range between battery swaps.

I think big breakthrough will be interchangeable battery-packs for instant refills at service-stations. The Japanese bike manufacturers are collaborating their designs around that. Hopefully automakers will as well.

After a bunch of stops and starts with this, including some business concepts that got pretty far down the path on replaceable/interchangeable battery packs in other countries, they've pretty much fizzled out. The model works for something like propane tanks for a grill, where people don't give a whit about which one they get, just swap it out each time as it is quicker, easier, and cost-effective. The cost of the propane inside of the tank is worth more than the tank itself, and if it goes missing or is broken, on balance the company selling them doesn't really care.

Swappable battery packs for cars have a very different pricing model. Those battery packs are worth many thousands of dollars, and likely will remain very valuable, at least for a few decades. People would care if they swapped out their pricey new one for a dinged up used one that has some percentage less range/performance, and the cost of the pack is thousands of times what the cost of an individual recharge of that pack is valued at in electricity. And physically swapping out the pack is always going to be costly. It's getting to the point where recharging (perhaps to 80% rather than 100%) is going to be faster than swapping safely anyway, if that's not already the case. The math just doesn't work, and the variables are too far out of whack to expect that math to change in our lifetime.

For a smaller pack like a motorcycle, perhaps its more likely than a car - but I still think that conundrum of the pack being worth so much more than the individual energy of each charge, and the pack being worth such a large portion of the vehicle itself, still stands in this case as well.

That doesn't mean that motorcycle manufacturers shouldn't push for some type of standard, and even work to making things so similar that they can be interchangeable in models or even manufacturers. Standardization should make it easier and cheaper to engineer, procure, and cost out - and the cheaper they can make the batteries/battery packs, the better. I just don't think the end game is that they become disposable and swappable by the end user in lieu of charging.

And range should be next goal. Tesla's been focusing on getting more instantaneous power out of their cars and boasting faster and faster 1/4-mile drag-race times. How important is that for most people? How often do you do 1/4-mile drag-races during your commute? Range is more important and I'd love to see 1000-mile range between battery swaps.

Agreed! As long is performance is adequate (or more than adequate) for whatever people are using the cars or bikes for, range is the key variable.

Standardization should make it easier and cheaper to engineer, procure, and cost out - and the cheaper they can make the batteries/battery packs, the better.

Unfortunately past experience says that the manufacturers will make them proprietary to force you to buy their product. If two manufacturers would get together and use a common battery, I'd vote for one of them with my wallet.

Perhaps change pricing model of electric cars. Leave out the battery and let end-user pick battery of their choice. They can buy one new or used, or rent one. Rich folks can splurge for super high-performance battery while rest can pick from weaker batteries. Similar to gas-canisters where you're really only paying for contents. Turning battery-packs into standardised commodity items should improve quality and lower prices.

Unfortunately past experience says that the manufacturers will make them proprietary to force you to buy their product. If two manufacturers would get together and use a common battery, I'd vote for one of them with my wallet.

Yeah, I think we won't see that in U.S. due to monopolistic attitudes with manufacturers. Witness what happened between Qualcomm vs. Motorola over whose high-speed cellular will be adopted as next standard. By the time either one won in courts, both their technologies were obsolete! Billions and billions wasted!

Compare that to collaboration between Nokia and Ericsson on GSM. They worked together, developed it and implemented all over Europe in less than a year! Of course it wasn't ever popular here because it wasn't something big carriers can monopolise. We are so, so far behind on so many advanced technologies because of this. It's taken over 10-years now, I can finally go to Europe and Asia and buy SIM for local phone-service and pop it into my U.S. phone and have it work!

Same thing with electric car chargers, all over Europe and China, parking-meters have chargers that'll plug into pretty much any car. Not so here... Heck, just getting charger installed in house is major ordeal with finding proper charging connectors. My in-laws have Tesla, Prius and Nissan Leaf. Each one requires different connector. So they have to use 3 different jumper/extension cables that plug into a common wall socket. This socket is another set of connectors with resistance and after couple years, socket has melted due to heat! Would've been so much easier to have single charging connector, then single cable directly to charger with no junctions in between. Grrr....

After a bunch of stops and starts with this, including some business concepts that got pretty far down the path on replaceable/interchangeable battery packs in other countries, they've pretty much fizzled out.

For a smaller pack like a motorcycle, perhaps its more likely than a car - but I still think that conundrum of the pack being worth so much more than the individual energy of each charge, and the pack being worth such a large portion of the vehicle itself, still stands in this case as well.

Check out Gogoro.

Unfortunately past experience says that the manufacturers will make them proprietary to force you to buy their product. If two manufacturers would get together and use a common battery, I'd vote for one of them with my wallet.

Maybe, but I was thinking a little differently. If the battery size / shape for motorcycles becomes commoditized, there is no advantage for spending the money to make one proprietary. It isn't going to differentiate the end product and find more customers - so then it becomes like a Bosch ECU or Brembo ABS module, where all manufacturers are basically buying the same component with a little customization rather than having to engineer their own. There is a built-in incentive for manufacturers to make their products less expensive to build.

Check out Gogoro.

That's actually a good example. It only exists because of huge governmental backing (funding of the majority of the battery changing stations) and VC money taking a bet on the future. Right now it is horrendously unprofitable, and would fail within weeks if it had to live with its own financials.

Electric cars are a nightmare as far as I'm concerned. How will I be able to fix them? I won't. No one will. The performance is set from factory. No tuning. No road trip capability. My vacations are all done with a truck and a camper shell. Impossible with electric vehicles.

The discussion about the modular battery packs across manufacturers and brands - I doubt that will ever happen. People buy cars just for the image. Some buy for functionality alone. But no auto manufacturer wants to compete with each other on any front. They'd rather handle all their business by themselves and not share any profit. They all think they have the best design and they won't give up the planned obsolescence and competition of proprietary software, hardware, design, etc. The Qualcomm Motorola example was perfect.

Good luck enjoying an electric motorcycle. They are for fruit loops. Electric cars too. Circus vehicles

Imagine being stranded with an electric car and asking someone to let you borrow their home's extension cord and electricity. That's a joke. Liquid fuel wins every time

And don't forget about how Tesla has no aftermarket part support and you can only get repairs at a dealership where you're being HOSED lol

Electric cars are a nightmare as far as I'm concerned. How will I be able to fix them? I won't. No one will. The performance is set from factory. No tuning. No road trip capability. My vacations are all done with a truck and a camper shell. Impossible with electric vehicles.

The discussion about the modular battery packs across manufacturers and brands - I doubt that will ever happen. People buy cars just for the image. Some buy for functionality alone. But no auto manufacturer wants to compete with each other on any front. They'd rather handle all their business by themselves and not share any profit. They all think they have the best design and they won't give up the planned obsolescence and competition of proprietary software, hardware, design, etc. The Qualcomm Motorola example was perfect.

Good luck enjoying an electric motorcycle. They are for fruit loops. Electric cars too. Circus vehicles

Imagine being stranded with an electric car and asking someone to let you borrow their home's extension cord and electricity. That's a joke. Liquid fuel wins every time

And don't forget about how Tesla has no aftermarket part support and you can only get repairs at a dealership where you're being HOSED lol

That why we are try the get the right to repair electronics pass to put end to the BS.

How will I be able to fix them?

What's to go wrong, suspension? Rust? If you're specifically talking about the batteries, people have been swapping hybrid batteries for decades now, and anything that can't be removed from the vehicle means you might just need a new vehicle.

No one will.

Of course dealerships will, and shops will have to learn or go out of business.

The performance is set from factory. No tuning.

Theres always tuning. Increase output at cost of battery life and motor burnout.

No road trip capability. My vacations are all done with a truck and a camper shell. Impossible with electric vehicles.

Of course it's possible. There's electric trucks and electric SUVs. They take a big (50+%) range hit when towing heavy. Shouldn't be a problem, though.

Imagine being stranded with an electric car and asking someone to let you borrow their home's extension cord and electricity. That's a joke. Liquid fuel wins every time

If you're terrified about not being able to find any way to charge in the woods, then bring a generator. Gives a n EV car ~24mpg, VERY slow charge time though.

And don't forget about how Tesla has no aftermarket part support and you can only get repairs at a dealership where you're being HOSED lol


Then just don't buy a Tesla? It's not like they're the only option or anything.

From driving an electric car since 2014:

Performance is not a problem. Yeah, I can't adjust it, but it will spin the tires without traction control. I don't generally hit it that hard, but it's certainly there if I need it. It's had zero maintenance other than changing the air filter in the glove compartment (cabin filter). You could count that as maintenance. It had one issue from the factory where the quick-chargers wouldn't connect but that was a quick fix once we figured out the problem (the guide for the plug was a couple of millimeters too long and it wouldn't connect).

Batteries have lost a little bit of capacity over the years we've had the car, from 74 miles on a full charge to mid 60s now. If we plan to go somewhere over her range limits, we look up where to find chargers. There's a web page that lists them all. So far we've been able to find chargers where we need them.

There are considerations, but overall, EVs are useful for what they do.

My husband also has an electric motorcycle. It's a Victory, out of business, so there are considerations about that, but like with the car, there's not a lot that goes wrong with them. It's stranded him twice- once was a series of errors in judgement, any one of which if he hadn't done, would have let him get home instead of being stranded a couple miles from home. The other time one cell in the battery suddenly decided it wasn't happy (we put both of us on my little Ninja to get home, and came back with the trailer that time). No worse than his other bikes. Those break down sometimes, too.

Toyota's hybrids have been immensely popular. Cheaper per-mile to operate than all-electric EV due to high cost of electricity in S.F. Bay Area. But in most places with cheaper electricity, EVs can be more viable. All we need is for Toyota to come out with EV to blow market wide open.

I remember when EFI came out and everyone was up in arms about death of home-mechanics. That failed to happen and I have no problems with hacking my cars and bikes with laptop. Modern hot-rodding is done in software!

Same thing with EV. Numerous adjustments and customizations can be done by end-users of Telsas, Volts or Leafs. Heck, you can even build your own EV if you wanted. Met this guy at Laguna Seca over decade ago before Tesla even put a car on road.

http://www.evalbum.com/736
https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2010/08/20/video-porsche-owner-electrifies-his-928/
http://jeffsev.blogspot.com/2008/12/porsche08-035_06.html
and
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q1uIumJOV6s

Interesting that we've come full-circle. Autos around turn-of-century were mostly electric, having just overtaken steam as power-source du jour.

Yeah, I've seen pictures from the 1920s and 1950s of electric cars. They marketed them to women drivers, being cleaner than the gas powered cars and in the 20s, you didn't have to crouch down in the mud to crank an electric so ladies wouldn't mess up their skirts.

Finally some realistic studies on real-world EV usage rather than idealised simulations. In-field factors not included in other studies:

- costs of EV purchase amortised
- cost of installing 240v line in home for charging
- costs of EV charging system
- cost of EV taxes due to State not getting gasoline tax
- cost of public/commercial charging stations
- personal time costs in driving around to charging stations
- personal time costs in waiting 30-min for fast-charge to 80%

With decreasing opportunies for free-charging at schools and employers, costs for users will increase by using commercial charging stations. Actual costs of electricity from utilities varies tremendously and you have to calculate for your area's pricing. Not use average pricing like used in those other studies.

https://amp.freep.com/amp/6110815001

Now that I live in area with electricity costs of only 1/2 of S.F. Bay Area, I may consider getting an EV.

All depends on the intended use. On one extreme, someone that intends to use the car such that they are using commercial chargers for the majority of the car's use - aren't going to save much at all, and might even be spending more over time than a fuel-efficient gas car. And there are the additional hurdles described, like finding the chargers, waiting for the charge time, etc.

The other extreme is someone who charges almost exclusively at home. After the one-time cost to get their house outfitted, their cost is directly aligned with the cost of their electricity. Cheaper areas are going to save more - but even high-priced residential can still be significantly less than fuel costs, especially if the power provider offers options for different time-based costs that you can align the car charging with. And - compared to the first example, there is no extra time to leave the house and get fuelled up, there's no incurred charging time cost, it's always ready to go.

Those in the first bucket who haven't thought this through might be disappointed - those in the second are in much better shape. By the time a higher portion of the fleet on the road is electric, perhaps the competition in the commercial charging space will be such that the costs will not remain at the multiple they are now of residential, but only time will tell.

That why we are try the get the right to repair electronics pass to put end to the BS.

You know what's up. I'm for rights, even if they're done in the name of keeping garbage Ev's alive. Everyone wins in that scenario. Too bad the plebians are the only ones to gain from a law requiring the right to repair. It'll never happen because of this simple fact