Lately I've been practicing my downshifting/braking technique every time I ride. This of course involves modulating the front brake while blipping the trottle and downshifting at the same time.

Every single article/book I've seen shows the braking being done with the forefinger and middle finger, while the thumb, ring finger and pinky operate the throttle.

This feels very awkward to me and I find it hard to modulate the brake properly.

I find that if I operate the throttle with my thumb and forefinger, and use the middle, ring and pinky to brake, I'm much smoother and more comfortable. I've got better control of both the throttle and the brake, and have three fingers on the brake as well.

This makes perfect logical sense to me. Gripping a cylindrical object with just your thumb, ring and pinky just isn't very secure.

If you're at your desk, pick up a stapler and staple some sheets together. The stapler represents your throttle. Do it with just your thumb, ring and pinky... awkward, right?

Now do it with just your thumb and forefinger. Better, yes?

Or, if you're not at a desk, grab your favorite beverage with the two different grips and you decide which one feels more natural and in control.

I can't for the life of me think of a good reason not to do it the way I'm doing it instead of the way the instructions say to do it. Is there one?

What's your view?

I agreed with you when I first started trying this.

Now I've just gotten so used to doing it the way everyone else does, with the ring and pinky. But I'm still not perfect at it, so it's entirely possible that your method is better. I just got used to the awkward feeling, and now it feels perfectly natural.

i never read which fingers to use, only the benefit of doing this to make downshifting smoother...when i started practicing this, i naturally did it as your book states...i never thought about it, but it feels normal to me...but we are all different, so of course who cares what the book says, if you found a way that is more comfortable for you, right :D

Whatever is most comfortable for you and gives you the most secure control over the throttle and brake. There is no "wrong" way if it works for you. :2cents:

Indeed, the point is to be able to brake smoothly and with constant pressure while blipping the throttle, not which fingers you use. Try various combinations of your preferrence, and pick whichever one works best for you.

Yeah, I've reached the same conclusion.

However, since it has been revealed to me that I do not in fact know everything (one of the benefits of age and wisdom), I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

You can learn a lot by asking questions that you think you already know the answers to. :thumbup:

I would smash my index finger if it were behind the brake lever. I would say get used to doing it with the index/middle fingers brake and ring/pinky blip. Your way might get you into trouble.

However, since it has been revealed to me that I do not in fact know everything (one of the benefits of age and wisdom), I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.



By that, I take it you're married? :rant:

Does anyone have a video of their hand doing this? Or pictures? I've been trying to figure this out, and there is no way in hell I can operate the brake and the throttle simultaneously... As a result, I'm always using the rear brake while downshifting and that's obviously not the best option.

If I don't have one up by the end of the week Talonne, please bother me about it again...

I have found that this come naturally to me with my Daytona, except I only brake with my middle finger and blip with the rest of my hand, the ninja I had to think about it and could never get it right... It maybe the amount the throttle needed to be blipped, I don't know.

If I don't have one up by the end of the week Talonne, please bother me about it again...

Thanks :)

It takes more effort, I can't really brake fully with the "little guys"

By that, I take it you're married? :rant:

:rotflmao:

The amount of throttle needed to blip the 250 is more than bigger bikes - the position of the stock lever doesn't help.

At least those are my excuses for not being able to rev match smoothly.
Still practicing though.

Sounds like a lot of work. Why not just break in gear until engine speed matches the next lowest gear then down shift and continue to break? It is not possible as a gear down will rev higher than the gear you are currently in (as that is how gearboxes work)

Does anyone have a video of their hand doing this? Or pictures? I've been trying to figure this out, and there is no way in hell I can operate the brake and the throttle simultaneously... As a result, I'm always using the rear brake while downshifting and that's obviously not the best option.

do you have stock levers? i have the pazzo shortie levers...i can't believe what a difference they make...my hands used to start getting sore pretty quickly...now they don't...being able to move them closer will make this a lot easier too :)

My stock lever comes nowhere near my forefinger even when squeezed hard.

Regarding using the strong fingers... I can pull mighty hard with the three fingers I use to brake. Plenty hard enough.

What I can't do is precisely control the throttle with my ring/pinky/thumb, or at least not as well as I can with the far more dextrous forefinger/thumb combination.

I feel like I have way better control and feel for the brakes when I use my index and middle fingers. My gloves also have tacky strips on those fingers as well, so it makes it very easy to grab.

As far as blipping the throttle, I'm not advanced enough to do it while braking - but I can definitely see that it would take some getting used to. With that said, once you have the movement down, you wouldn't really need a "feel" for the throttle. I'd argue that the index and middle fingers are more precise fingers - we have way more control over them. I'd reserve those for the squeezing the brake lever, which in my opinion is more important than blipping the throttle.

Is there a way to move the brake lever closer to the throttle? That might make it easier.

Not to get too far off topic, but Michael -- that was what dawn was referring to when she said pazzo levers. With pazzos, the distance between the grip and lever is adjustable. I think there are some other alternatives on the market, although I'm not familiar with them.

I saw those, they're pretty sweet. I have an '06 though, I don't think Pazzo makes them for my bike.

maybe I worded that wrong... I wait until I am in an rpm to shift to lower hear without jerking too bad or skidding the back tired. yes the rpms raise either more or slightly more depending on what I am at but big deal

Not sure I see the point in all that revving to try and make some ultra smoother transition into the next lower gear, I mean I am not in the 2010 taurus im on the bike.

It has to do with two things:

1 - Keeping the bike in the power band
2 - Keeping the chassis settled (jerking is bad, smooth is good - when the bike isn't bucking around you've got more control)

Done right, you can carry much higher speeds and be in much more positive control of the bike.

It's also more fun.

I feel like I have way better control and feel for the brakes when I use my index and middle fingers. My gloves also have tacky strips on those fingers as well, so it makes it very easy to grab.

As far as blipping the throttle, I'm not advanced enough to do it while braking - but I can definitely see that it would take some getting used to. With that said, once you have the movement down, you wouldn't really need a "feel" for the throttle. I'd argue that the index and middle fingers are more precise fingers - we have way more control over them. I'd reserve those for the squeezing the brake lever, which in my opinion is more important than blipping the throttle.

Is there a way to move the brake lever closer to the throttle? That might make it easier.

I disagree about feel for the throttle.

Rather than post out of speculation, go out, actually try it and report back. You definitely do need to modulate the throttle as well as the brakes while downshifting and time it all correctly.

You don't want to let go of the clutch while the throttle is still open or the bike lurches... you want to let it out while the engine revs are coming back down after the blip.

You don't want to alter pressure on the brake as you move the throttle either, or the bike lurches.

So with the same hand you're both twisting the throttle AND squeezing the brake lever smoothly, consistently and progressively. Two different motions.

It's like this... keep constant, light to moderate pressure on the brake lever. Now, WITHOUT CHANGING THAT PRESSURE, pull in the clutch, blip the throttle while shifting, and let out the clutch IMMEDIATELY after blipping so the engine revs haven't gone too low.

If you do it right it'll be turbine-smooth. If you do it wrong it'll be like a bucking horse.

I tried it. It's more of learning to get comfortable using those fingers when blipping the throttle for me, but I still don't feel like I need a precise feel over it, not as much as I do with the brake or the clutch. I don't get what you mean by modulate the throttle? You're fingers are on the throttle for less than a second. You're just matching revs, you blip accordingly and that's it. It definitely doesn't involve as much control and care as using the front brake.

Like you said, you're moderating the brake pressure - which involves precision, and you're letting out the clutch smoothly - again involving precision. I guess if you feel like you can by as precise with your brake lever using the your middle, ring, and pinky fingers then you're fine with the method you developed.

I find (on both the clutch and brake levers) that my index finger ends up extending out over the lever itself - the pressure I apply to both levers is all from my middle and ring fingers.

With that in mind, I usually blip the throttle by actually using the heel of my hand. It's a more difficult motion, because you have to keep the brake pressure steady with two fingers while your whole hand is moving... but I find that I can rev match pretty well that way and don't end up overrevving too much on a downshift.

I like to throw the rear brake into the mix when downshifting. I keep the throttle steady with my ring and pinky while applying front brake with my index and middle fingers, and put some pressure to the rear brake; just enough to feel it resist the engine. The rear brake helps me spread out the task of braking as a whole so I can put some dexterity into the throttle fingers. It also gives some insurance against lurching forward if you blip too soon, without adequately disengaging the clutch, which is unnerving approaching a busy intersection. I don't know how appropriate this is to the technique being discussed, but food for thought.

Just to throw out something else on here, to make a quick panic stop, not just slowing down, the quickest way to stop (shortest distance traveled) is not to downshift, but pull in the clutch to disengage the engine from the rear wheel and apply both front and rear brakes appropriately.

Just to throw out something else on here, to make a quick panic stop, not just slowing down, the quickest way to stop (shortest distance traveled) is not to downshift, but pull in the clutch to disengage the engine from the rear wheel and apply both front and rear brakes appropriately.

+1

Does anyone have a video of their hand doing this? Or pictures? I've been trying to figure this out, and there is no way in hell I can operate the brake and the throttle simultaneously... As a result, I'm always using the rear brake while downshifting and that's obviously not the best option.

Vid of the clutch work: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showpost.php?p=173595&postcount=13

Link to article and pictures: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showpost.php?p=175084&postcount=22

Nice posts Jeff. Should we be slipping the clutch for every shift, or only when downshifting? I've been pulling the clutch all the way in for upshifting and downshifting.

Nice posts Jeff. Should we be slipping the clutch for every shift, or only when downshifting? I've been pulling the clutch all the way in for upshifting and downshifting.

In my experience, you do not have to pull in the clutch lever all the way in for either up or down shifts. The wet clutch on the bike is meant to be slipped (friction zone) it is not like a car clutch. I only use two fingers on the clutch when clutching (up and down - I only use all fingers when holding it in at a light). the two fingers left on the grip act as a "stop" so you do not pull the clutch all the way in. A light touch on the clutch really smoothed up my downshifting (and upshifting).

In my experience, you do not have to pull in the clutch lever all the way in for either up or down shifts. The wet clutch on the bike is meant to be slipped (friction zone) it is not like a car clutch. I only use two fingers on the clutch when clutching (up and down - I only use all fingers when holding it in at a light). the two fingers left on the grip act as a "stop" so you do not pull the clutch all the way in. A light touch on the clutch really smoothed up my downshifting (and upshifting).

Cool. I'll be trying this over the weekend.

Michael, let us know how it goes.

Another good way to practice using the clutch lightly is to eliminate it completely. Learn to shift up and down without using the clutch at all, and then add in as much clutch as you need to smooth things out...

To learn to shift without the clutch going up through the gears, keep it below 6K, when ready to shift, let off the throttle, and within 1/2 second to a second, click the next gear up. Downshift, let off the throttle for a brief bit, and while simultenously revving the engine quickly, but not a whole lot, click down into the next gear.

I'll try and include this in the video I'm making...

Vid of the clutch work: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showpost.php?p=173595&postcount=13

Link to article and pictures: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showpost.php?p=175084&postcount=22

Do you have any videos of the right side? :) I don't know what I'm doing wrong... I can have my hand exactly like in your pictures, but I cannot physically rotate the throttle with my hand in that position. Maybe it is just too far of a reach and I need shorty levers, I don't know... My hands are definitely on the small side.

Look here in the video column: http://www.starmotorcycle.com/gallery.html

I cannot open the one titled "Downshifting / Blipping have you confused?" here at work but I bet it has some information that could help.

Look at some of the other race track videos and you might see some right hand blipping too.

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Here we go. A video looking down at both hands while braking and downshifting plus some good stuff on traction with Keith Code's slide bike:

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I'm no Keith Code, nor is this video instructional, but rather simply illustrational. I said I would make it, so I have. I hope it helps. This was made on my commute to work, and some riding in-town.

Obviously, the big difference between this vid and Code/MCN's video is that this is actually a 250, driven where it's most likely to be driven - the open road.

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This site isn't like others. How do I embed a vid?

How do I embed a vid?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5900

Spooph, that's excellent!

The different angles and editing really make it crystal clear.

What clip-ons are those? Never seen or heard of any like that.

Home made clipons? Nice video spooph! The view at 2:18 is great as it shows both hands working.

Alex, thanks for the embed info!

THanks for the compliments folks!

I designed those clip-ons and had them machined... My machinist bailed on me for v2. These still rub a bit, and are just a tid bit too low and forward... I have the re-design, I just have to find a machinist willing to work with me....

Oh yea, and since I'm cheap, I just cut my levers to shorties. I'd love a set of Pazzos, but c'est la vie ya know!

I'm no Keith Code, nor is this video instructional, but rather simply illustrational. I said I would make it, so I have. I hope it helps. This was made on my commute to work, and some riding in-town.

Thanks for the video!

I don't think I can physically do what you do on downshifting without jerking the throttle around too suddenly or accidentally grabbing the brakes too hard. Looks like I'll have to avoid this technique until I spend $200 on adjustable levers...

Thanks for the video!

I don't think I can physically do what you do on downshifting without jerking the throttle around too suddenly or accidentally grabbing the brakes too hard. Looks like I'll have to avoid this technique until I spend $200 on adjustable levers...

A great way to practice in the meantime, in my opinion, is to just work on the mastering the downshift / clutch / throttle combination - take the brakes out of the equation at first. For example, from 5th gear, at a fairly low RPM (maybe you would've downshifted by now), try to drop all the way down into 2nd gear without allowing the bike to buck underneath you. You should hear it, but you shouldn't feel it:
Nee*Downshift*Neeee*Downshit*NeeeeEEE*Downshift*NEEEEEE

etc ;). Like was stated in the video / posts, this is kind of hard on the bike, and I don't do it regularly, but sometimes I'll just drop gears super quick and see how smooth of a transition I can make it between 5th-4th-3rd-2nd-1st. Be weary of overriding traction on the rear break if you drop gears at too high of an RPM though!

Edit: & Make sure you have plenty of space in front of you to stop, because your speed will decrease waaay slower then if you were using the brakes at the same time. I used to do it on highway offramps as a means of practicing before I got comfortable using the brakes too

Edit2: Neee = engine noise ;)

Ha! I'm checking out the replies, and look at what the adds popped up:

http://www.rideitmoto.com/

No go on for the 250 though... Bastards...

haha @OP... I laughed when i read what you posted because I did exactly what you described on the MSF bike they gave me (kawasaki eliminator), but when I got my ninja, it seemed completely natural to do the index/middle on brake.... I think maybe it's got something to do with the size or position of the lever/handlebar? the eliminator was really uncomfortable hehehe

Jeff has got it! No need to fully compress the lever in either up or down shifting.

I actually measured how far I pull the brake lever in on my downshifts. The outermost portion of the lever only moves 3/16" - 1/4". I just barely pull in the clutch and it creates enough slippage to do make the downshift much smoother.

Many like to overdo the motion. Now that is my bike, another bike may need 1/2 or more of the full lever movement. I know how they vary because my old GS you'd have to pull it in 1/3 of the way, and my bike on the MSF would need about 1/2. I can use just my index finger on my up/downshifts and it is totally fine on my ninjette.

Obviously, the big difference between this vid and Code/MCN's video is that this is actually a 250, driven where it's most likely to be driven - the open road.


For those that don't know, this is also relevant because the 250 twin motor is more unforgiving of a botched rev match as opposed to the I4 motors of the SS bikes. You botch a rev match on an I4 engine and it won't kick you as hard...unless you're redlining the damn thing. This is true for all twin bikes I think. You mess up a rev match on a twin bike and that thing will let you know. Food for thought.

With that said, my rev matching skills have gotten seriously lazy hahaha.

For those that don't know, this is also relevant because the 250 twin motor is more unforgiving of a botched rev match as opposed to the I4 motors of the SS bikes. You botch a rev match on an I4 engine and it won't kick you as hard...unless you're redlining the damn thing. This is true for all twin bikes I think. You mess up a rev match on a twin bike and that thing will let you know. Food for thought.

With that said, my rev matching skills have gotten seriously lazy hahaha.

+1 on the 600 SS with I4's, I think everyone one of them comes with a slipper clutch nowadays which makes it even easier.

I could not hear the audio in the video so I am curious how how you blip the rpms up when rev matching.

The reason I ask is I have found a 1-2 k difference dropping gears so when rev match I pull the clutch about 1/4 way or so bring rpms up 1k shif and let clutch out. I don't rev the engine way high up in rpms. I let my rpms drop to about 5k before I down shift to the next lowest gear if stopping and ratchet down till then, I don't drop into fist until I am pretty much stopped.

For passing If I want to drop to get higher rpms and have pull I clutch, rev up 1.5k rpm and dump the clutch.

You can also just not blip at all and slowly release the clutch letting the gears catch up but you have to have good clutch control as to not let it out to fast, it will work your clutch more. A high rpm throttle blip is a bit antiquated if you ask me, back when most bikes had 4 gears you would have to rev it all the way up but with modern 6 gear boxes the gears are so much closer together 1-2 k rpm should do it just fine.

If you have to turn the throttle a lot to get that 1-2k rpm jump I would have your throttle adjusted as it should not be an exaggerated turn for that little bit of rpm.

smooth is fast, do what's comfortable. there's no right or wrong way. just keep the bike settled

thx Monkey!

Havok, being that we're dealing with ratios, the higher up the revs are, the bigger the difference in RPM's between gears. I'm also running 15/44 gearing, so there's a bit bigger difference between the gears than on a stock bike.... To rev-match, I just listen. Experience has taught me how high to rev to match. For instance, at 40mph to downshift from 6th to 5th, there is no reason to blip, but at that same speed, going from 3rd to 2nd is a big blip, I think 2.5K change on my bike... and going to 1st in 40mph would go past red-line....

and just letting the clutch out slowly between shifts is fine if you drive like a granny, but I prefer the shift to be done and over with ASAP (milliseconds). The more time I spend shifting, the less time I have power to the wheel.... I've just kind of gotten use to it, and it's the way I ride.

I agree with Fader, and whoever else said this, there is no absolute right way to do this. It's more about, if you want to shift as quickly as possible, here is one technique to get it done, reliably and consistently, without causing damage to the bike...

thx Monkey!

Havok, being that we're dealing with ratios, the higher up the revs are, the bigger the difference in RPM's between gears. I'm also running 15/44 gearing, so there's a bit bigger difference between the gears than on a stock bike.... To rev-match, I just listen. Experience has taught me how high to rev to match. For instance, at 40mph to downshift from 6th to 5th, there is no reason to blip, but at that same speed, going from 3rd to 2nd is a big blip, I think 2.5K change on my bike... and going to 1st in 40mph would go past red-line....

and just letting the clutch out slowly between shifts is fine if you drive like a granny, but I prefer the shift to be done and over with ASAP (milliseconds). The more time I spend shifting, the less time I have power to the wheel.... I've just kind of gotten use to it, and it's the way I ride.

I agree with Fader, and whoever else said this, there is no absolute right way to do this. It's more about, if you want to shift as quickly as possible, here is one technique to get it done, reliably and consistently, without causing damage to the bike...

Thing is we are talking about comming to a stop. If it was trying to shave a 1/4 second off of your lap time then yes rev matching is a must. Comming to a stop at a red light not so much. I rev match on pretty much all of my down shifts and like you I use the engine sound. More racers are starting to feather the clutch now rather then blip as well. If I am looking to pass/gain speed rev matching is the only way, if I am taking a turn and wantto be higher up in the band then rev matching is the way to go, stoping at a light or stop sign or if traffic is slowing in front of me I feather the clutch all mist like a double clutch in a car.

Easy way if I want to maintain current speed or speed up I rev match. If I am slowing down or coming to a stop I feather the clutch. It's what works for me though and it's what you are comfortable with.

for braking I keep my thumb and index finger on the throttle and use my middle finger, ring and pinky on the brake, but for the clutch, I have my thumb on the cylinder with all 4 fingers over the clutch.

for braking I keep my thumb and index finger on the throttle and use my middle finger, ring and pinky on the brake, but for the clutch, I have my thumb on the cylinder with all 4 fingers over the clutch.

Hehe this is how I do it too....or at least used to. This is the Rossi style grip :D

These days I just use my middle finger to brake. But I still use my entire hand to clutch.

I use the same technique as you spooph for blip-ping the throttle while braking. Thanks to the MSF I use all my fingers to brake(which has become a habit) and then I just use my thumb to twist the throttle. Works pretty good for me.

I use the same technique as you spooph for blip-ping the throttle while braking. Thanks to the MSF I use all my fingers to brake(which has become a habit) and then I just use my thumb to twist the throttle. Works pretty good for me.

That is how I do it as well but I have big hands so the cradle if my thumb and hand is enough to twist the theottle

Another technique that will make braking and blipping easier (aside from lots of practice) is to let the fingers you are braking with slide up and down slightly on the brake lever as you blip and pull on the brake lever. It is subtle and helps keep your braking smooth.

Who'd of thought that so much action is going on while riding? It is a lot to coordinate; braking, blipping, clutching, and shifting. But boy, when you get it right is really does feel cool.