This poll pertains to upshifting only, but I do know that many of you probably clutchless downshift as well and would love to hear your thoughts on it. I would also like to hear when you use clutch vs. clutchless shifting, in what types of situations you choose one type over the other, reasons, etc. Thanks! :-) Happy almost Friday! :D

Oops, forgot to tell my experience with it. :-)
When my hubby taught me how to ride, he actually started by teaching me to upshift without using the clutch, but by briefly letting off the throttle a bit and shifting up nearly simultaneously. Until my MSF class about 2 months later, I never used the clutch except to downshift, however, when I learned the clutch, I liked it better. I began to predominately use the clutch when upshifting because I hit fewer false neutrals. Now I use clutchless when accelerating quickly, such as to pass a car or two, but I'm mostly a clutch girl. I've never had enough mettle to try clutchless downshifting. :flypig:

I wouldn't try to downshift without the clutch unless my clutch lever fell off or the cable snapped or something like that. The only time I upshift without the clutch is when I'm first in line off a red light and I have the whole highway in front of me to go WOT.

I have small hands so I generally clutchless upshift from 2nd to 6th (I'll use the clutch from 1st to second to avoid hitting neutral). I have my clutch adjusted so it engages about halfway instead of three quarters. I also feel like clutchless is smoother if done correctly. I think living in San Diego also influences the clutchless shifting since there's so many bikers and I'm constantly waving (75% of my riding is probably one handed).
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Awesome!

I usually only shift without the clutch when I'm riding one handed. It's so natural for me to use the clutch. So either when I'm relaxing on the bike, or am too lazy to reach down to the clutch, etc,etc... Usually when things are going easy. Traffic, commuting, etc... Which seems to be the predominant setting these days... I know, tis a tragedy...

When I start hitting the canyons at speed, and accuracy is of the essence, I tend to lean on the clutch a bit to make everything smooth (don't want to jerk that rear tire and end up sliding off the road you know).

The only time I upshift without the clutch is when I'm first in line off a red light and I have the whole highway in front of me to go WOT.

:D have you considered instead of dropping the throttle, leaving it WOT and tapping the clutch with the shifter pressed (and potentially letting the engine bounce off the rev limiter for one cycle while the clutch is in and its shifting) and then immediately dropping that tiny amount of clutch? as the clutch trys to engage, you'll be about 2k rpm above the wheel, so you get a little shot of engine momentum straight to the wheel.:squid: if you do it right it gives you a nice little wheelie... :thumbup:

During my ARC class, the instructors advised us that clutchless up shifting actually does less damage then using the clutch. The big thing though is doing the upshift's correctly otherwise you can do more harm then good.

During my ARC class, the instructors advised us that clutchless up shifting actually does less damage then using the clutch. The big thing though is doing the upshift's correctly otherwise you can do more harm then good.

This is also what Lee Parks states in his book, "Total Control"...I believe Keith Code mentions it as well.

Rarely

I've never upshift w/o using the clutch.
I'll have to try this when I get home today.
Why would upshifting w/o the clutch be less damaging than using the clutch?

I've never upshift w/o using the clutch.
I'll have to try this when I get home today.
Why would upshifting w/o the clutch be less damaging than using the clutch?

It'll be less wear on your clutch because you're not using it (clutches are still fairly cheap to replace). Also, when done correctly, the shift is almost instant (like an automatic). You preload the shifter, simultaneously roll off gas/upshift/roll on gas. Less movement in your rpm and a lot smoother.
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I've never upshift w/o using the clutch.
I'll have to try this when I get home today.
Why would upshifting w/o the clutch be less damaging than using the clutch?

I don't remember the exact mechanics behind it but if I were to speculate I believe it has something to do with pressure of having the engine and transmission disengage when you use the clutch. I could be completely wrong however.

As far as how to do it? Here is how. Try it out from 2nd to 3rd for example. Open the throttle like normal after you get into second and when you are getting ready to go into third do the following. Push up on the shift lever like you normally would. As far as pressure, you just trying to nudge it not force it. Then back off the throttle a quarter turn and you will feel it snick into the next gear. Be advised it may be a bit jerky however.

Next time around, try to just tap the clutch as you are doing it and it should be really smooth.

Never upshifted without the clutch, but I've noticed that maintaining a little pressure on top of the shift pedal causes it to downshift automatically when the engine reaches the right speed (lower than I would expect).

:D have you considered instead of dropping the throttle, leaving it WOT and tapping the clutch with the shifter pressed (and potentially letting the engine bounce off the rev limiter for one cycle while the clutch is in and its shifting) and then immediately dropping that tiny amount of clutch? as the clutch trys to engage, you'll be about 2k rpm above the wheel, so you get a little shot of engine momentum straight to the wheel.:squid: if you do it right it gives you a nice little wheelie... :thumbup:

No, I've never thought about that. Perhaps I'll give it a try!

Only during WOT.

I've never considered shifting clutchless on my MC - granted I'm a noob and hadn't considered much of anything until about two months ago. :rolleyes:

After reading this thread the other day, I went out and gave it a shot - pretty smooth.

What are the risks/rewards of shifting clutchless? If you don't need the clutch for up-shifting, then why use it?

Edit: I think I found some answers in other related threads - thanks, though.

Edit: I think I found some answers in other related threads - thanks, though.[/I]

Could you post links to those threads?

http://www.lipfird.com/images/blue_down_arrow.jpg

:)

I was actually thinking of posting in some sub forum or another asking if no-clutch up-shifting is potentially damaging to the transmission.

I had read someplace that this is possible ( and down-shifting too) and had accidentally up-shifted without the clutch a few times.

Once I realized how this works, I experiment with it a bit. It seemed that up-shifting without the clutch between the higher gears (like 4 to 5 and 5 to 6) is potentially smoother than up-shifting with the clutch. Logically, smooth operation is generally not bad for the machinery.

After reading all the stuff posted here, I guess I am not imagining this.

I never use the clutch to upshift. the transmission is designed to be clutchless on the upshift.

YOU MUST USE IT TO DOWNSHIFT. thats the way the thing was built.

YOU MUST USE IT TO DOWNSHIFT. thats the way the thing was built.


Never say never! My hubby does clutchless downshift quite often.

do as your buddie does and dont call me when you have to push your bike home....that is if you can.

do as your buddie does and dont call me when you have to push your bike home....that is if you can.

LOL! Didn't say I did it, nor did I say my buddy did it. :-) It's worked for hubby for years and luckily, I've never had to worry about calling you to help push the bike home. :-)

I never use the clutch to upshift. the transmission is designed to be clutchless on the upshift.

YOU MUST USE IT TO DOWNSHIFT. thats the way the thing was built.

That's not what the manual says. It says very explicitly that, in the event that you need to (clutch cable breaking, for example), that you can. As it is, downshifting is the ONLY kind of clutchless shifting I even know how to do. You just have to put some pressure on the shifter as you slow down and, when the RPMs are right, it will slip right in. The right speed is probably much lower than you would expect... under 25MPH in 6th gear on stock gearing.

oopps, I always use the clutch when shifting, wither up or down. I figured there is a reason that it is there. But I accidentally hit the always button.

nb

ok lol the manual say never clutchless upshift on every bike. Thats how they get you into the shop for a new clutch. The manual says not to exceed 4000 rpms during break-in for the first 500 miles and 6000 for the next 500. Did you follow that advice too? How about the zinger that says you can go 600 miles on your original oil with all those metal shavings floating around in the engine and gear box?? How about going 7500 miles before you check your air filter? Sounds like great advice to me. NOT. ALL Japanes sport bike are designed to be clutchless upshifted. They are not designed to be clutchless on the downshift. Yes you can do it in a pinch. Hell ive done it once or twice. If you want your transmission to live a good full life I wouldnt recomend it.

ok lol the manual say never clutchless upshift on every bike. Thats how they get you into the shop for a new clutch. The manual says not to exceed 4000 rpms during break-in for the first 500 miles and 6000 for the next 500. Did you follow that advice too? How about the zinger that says you can go 600 miles on your original oil with all those metal shavings floating around in the engine and gear box?? How about going 7500 miles before you check your air filter? Sounds like great advice to me. NOT. ALL Japanes sport bike are designed to be clutchless upshifted. They are not designed to be clutchless on the downshift. Yes you can do it in a pinch. Hell ive done it once or twice. If you want your transmission to live a good full life I wouldnt recomend it.

Kevin, I thought you did track days. I have only used the clutch to upshift (on the track) during a slow warm up lap. I never use the clutch during hard acceleration (which is very rare).

How does not using the clutch (clutchless shifting) result in needing a new clutch. I can see transmission problems (shift forks, gear teeth) when clutchless shifting but I have never have a clutch failure in 28 years of full throttle clutchless upshifting.

It was a response to the previous post. If you use the clutch all the time it will wear out faster. Hence the trip to the shop for a new clutch. Guess it wasnt spelled out very well now was it?

easy there killers...

The clutch is designed to be a physical disconnect between the engine and the transmission. Period.

The transmission is designed to offer various gear ratios to increase or decrease speed beyond the engine's power.

The engine is designed to provide propulsion.

How you use each one of these particulars is up to you.

If you find that clutch-less shifting, up or down isn't smooth, use the clutch. If you find it's smoother and faster for you not to use the clutch, don't. If you're smooth, and regardless of technique, the bike isn't lurching, grinding or exhibiting any one or multiples of a multitude of symptoms, everything is dandy...

No one person can tell another: "Don't/ Do clutchless-shift in situations A, B and C, but not in situation D".

I for one can seamlessly shift up or down without the clutch, and even INTO neutral, but not back into gear from a standstill.

I however, do use the clutch, because I find I can shifter FASTER, read SMOOTHER using the clutch. That's how my muscles respond to my brain....

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

I also recommend all riders to figure out how to clutchless shift, starting in the lower RPM's and practice going higher and higher in the revs. It's just one more way to get more comfortable with the bike, and could be a handy skill to know in an emergency.

Trust your instincts. If the bike is making a noise you think it shouldn't, then have it checked out. But if everything is operating smoothly, go for it.

Parts wear out, that's why they make replacement parts. For instance, I've gone through 4 sets of front brake pads, and 1 set of rears. 4 rear tires, and 3 fronts. 1 set of fork seals. 2 chains. It's OK, it's part of the game. It's what I've had to pay for 30K + miles. If you don't like it, don't drive the bike....

ally99, good on you! One day I want to go ride with you and your hubby. You guys sound like fun!

ok lol the manual say never clutchless upshift on every bike. Thats how they get you into the shop for a new clutch. The manual says not to exceed 4000 rpms during break-in for the first 500 miles and 6000 for the next 500. Did you follow that advice too? How about the zinger that says you can go 600 miles on your original oil with all those metal shavings floating around in the engine and gear box?? How about going 7500 miles before you check your air filter? Sounds like great advice to me. NOT. ALL Japanes sport bike are designed to be clutchless upshifted. They are not designed to be clutchless on the downshift. Yes you can do it in a pinch. Hell ive done it once or twice. If you want your transmission to live a good full life I wouldnt recomend it.

The manual says that you CAN shift without the clutch. It doesn't specify "upshift" and it doesn't say not to do one or the other either. The implication was to do it in an emergency with a non-functional clutch but, still, it's very different than what you say it says. Only upshifting doesn't help much if you have no functional clutch.

As for clutchless down shifting... how are you doing it? The way I do it, it doesn't feel like it harms the engine at all. At VERY low speeds, it "goes" when the engine lets it go and it slides right in with no real "lurch." You can apply similar upwards pressure to the pedal and upshifting the same way will not work, which is why I have never upshifted clutchlessly.

Downshift method: as you slow down in 6th gear, put some downward pressure on the shifter and maintain it; when the bike reaches somewhere between 21-25MPH indicated (stock gearing), it will simply slide down into 5th. Almost immediately it will be able to slide into 4th, 3rd, and so on, so re-apply the pressure immediately to be ready for it.

CZ, try this out and post what you've found. This is how I clutchless-shift:

in any gear, going up or down, accelerate for a brief moment, then let off the gas, and quickly shift, up or down. I recommend to try this around 4,000RPM and 4th or 5th gear to begin with. The first few shifts will be a bit jerky, but after that, you'll figure out how much to let off the throttle, and how quickly to shift. What you'll find, is the faster the engine is turning, the faster you have shift after letting off the throttle.

How/why does this work? as you accelerate, the entire power train is placed under strain. When you let off, it frees everything up for a brief second before inertia takes over and places the bike+ rider's weight back onto the power train, now slowing it down (engine braking). The shift should happen in that golden moment where the moto isn't accelerating, nor decelerating.

Note: shifting up, quickly roll of the throttle, shift and back on the throttle. Shifting down, sometimes simply "blipping" the throttle after the roll-off will yield a very smooth and perfect rev-match.

If anybody wants me to get more in-depth with this stuff, just let me know.

M,
We plan to ride in CO one day. :-) We'll look you up!

CZ, try this out and post what you've found. This is how I clutchless-shift:

in any gear, going up or down, accelerate for a brief moment, then let off the gas, and quickly shift, up or down. I recommend to try this around 4,000RPM and 4th or 5th gear to begin with. The first few shifts will be a bit jerky, but after that, you'll figure out how much to let off the throttle, and how quickly to shift. What you'll find, is the faster the engine is turning, the faster you have shift after letting off the throttle.

How/why does this work? as you accelerate, the entire power train is placed under strain. When you let off, it frees everything up for a brief second before inertia takes over and places the bike+ rider's weight back onto the power train, now slowing it down (engine braking). The shift should happen in that golden moment where the moto isn't accelerating, nor decelerating.

Note: shifting up, quickly roll of the throttle, shift and back on the throttle. Shifting down, sometimes simply "blipping" the throttle after the roll-off will yield a very smooth and perfect rev-match.

If anybody wants me to get more in-depth with this stuff, just let me know.

I had planned to research it later when I had the time but I went ahead and tried it with your method and it worked great for shifting up and down. Thanks! If my clutch lever/cable ever breaks, I know how to shift down easily with my old method and either way at nearly any speed/RPM with yours. Thanks!

One other thing.....if you dont know how to upshift clutchless correctly....you can do a lot of damage to your bike.

Bent shift forks, gored out shift drums, and chewed up dogs to say the least.
Unless you intend to clean out metal bits from your oil screen....stick to the clutch.

I practiced clutchless shifting up and down to the point that I could do it well, then I pretty much stopped because I just use the clutch out of habit, and Its still a bit jerky down shifting without the clutch.

I personally do both clutch and clutchless shifitng. It just depends on how im feeling and the situation.

For me Clutchless shifting seems to be the smoothest when your at least racking the throttle beyond half way and above 7000 rpm anything less will have a real jerky clanky shift (of course when shifting and left off the throttle fully unless WOT where its just a slight let off)

I Did a little research on the myth that "CLUTCH-LESS" shifting is bad for our transmissions but if you just google Manual Sequential Transmissions which 99% of motorcycle use this type of transmission.
Manual Sequential transmissions are "DESIGNED" for the user to shift "WITHOUT" using clutch unless starting from the stationary position.

F1,Rally, and most racde cars use this type of transmissions, although paddle shifters they have clutch pedals for use from the stationary.

Modern mass produced vehicles with paddle shifter transmissions don't utilize MANUAL sequential transmissions but rather an automatic transmission with the an option for user inputed gear changes

I Did a little research on the myth that "CLUTCH-LESS" shifting is bad for our transmissions but if you just google Manual Sequential Transmissions which 99% of motorcycle use this type of transmission.
Manual Sequential transmissions are "DESIGNED" for the user to shift "WITHOUT" using clutch unless starting from the stationary position.



If our transmissions are DESIGNED to be shifted without the use of the clutch, can you explain why the manufactures' owners manuals say to use the clutch when shifting gears? Not doubting your word on research, but if what you've found pertains to all motorcycle transmissions and it is an inherent design to not use the clutch except from a stop, why is it they advise you to use the clutch between shifts?

I can shift up or down w/o the use of the clutch on a motorcycle but know if any of those shifts are not perfect, the wear and tear that missed shift can cause is not worth the ease of not pulling in the clutch lever, so I choose to use it for every shift.

If our transmissions are DESIGNED to be shifted without the use of the clutch, can you explain why the manufactures' owners manuals say to use the clutch when shifting gears? Not doubting your word on research, but if what you've found pertains to all motorcycle transmissions and it is an inherent design to not use the clutch except from a stop, why is it they advise you to use the clutch between shifts?

I can shift up or down w/o the use of the clutch on a motorcycle but know if any of those shifts are not perfect, the wear and tear that missed shift can cause is not worth the ease of not pulling in the clutch lever, so I choose to use it for every shift.

Well said.
By using a clutch you disconnect the engine from the wheels, and therefore disconnect the torque produced by the engine and torque produced by the wheels (which is here from the kinetic energy of the moving object on these wheels). If these 2 torques were exactly the same, there would be no use for the clutch at all.

When clutch-less shifting, what you do by "rolling off" the gas is actually trying to synchronize the inertial torque and engine torque by lowering the rpm of the engine to the value which is expected in the next gear while bike is going at the given speed. But this increases the load on the synchronizers in the gearbox, and makes the shift "jerky", unless you make it perfect. As far as i know the synchros are some sort of frictional device, so the principle is same as with the clutch - something is rubbing against something else.

On the other hand, if you use the clutch, and sync the engine rpm with the gear rpm, your clutch is not suffering that much (keep in mind that it was made for what it does), and your syncros in the gearbox are suffering only the load of the inertial torque of the spinning shaft with the gears on it. This gives a nice and smooth shift with the use of the clutch.

Finally, you can be really bad to your clutch by doing poor job synchronizing engine and bike speed. This wears the clutch the most, if it must handle a large difference between the two.

The reason why you have the intermittent pause in throttle or torque is to allow the dog gears not synchromesh gears (as in a car) to engage.

Basically that's the reason why there is no grinding of gears on a bike because there are no synchromesh gears to grind, the gears just go to the next gear.

The synchromesh gears just match rpm's of the next gears "gears" prior to the engagement. There basically a clutch for the gears themselves.

The reason why you have the intermittent pause in throttle or torque is to allow the dog gears not synchromesh gears (as in a car) to engage.

Basically that's the reason why there is no grinding of gears on a bike because there are no synchromesh gears to grind, the gears just go to the next gear.

The synchromesh gears just match rpm's of the next gears "gears" prior to the engagement. There basically a clutch for the gears themselves.

You are right, motorcycle gearboxes have dog gears. :ashamed20:
the rest of the stuff is more or less correct though :D

normally for me road riding is always clutch. got some advice today at a track day to go clutchless upshifting and it worked great at the higher revs. worked very well and was very smooth. god i need a bigger track bike though haha :P

Basically that's the reason why there is no grinding of gears on a bike because there are no synchromesh gears to grind, the gears just go to the next gear.
You can definitely grind gears on a bike. They use the same engagement mechanism as cars (dogs), but without syncronizers.

I used to clutchless shift, up AND down, all the time. One time I did the entire commute to work with one hand, just to see if I could do it... stopsigns involved squeezing the brake until the engine was JUST about to die, then going again. But, one night when riding around with friends, I missed several gears on upshifts, so now I mostly use the clutch.

However, I still sometimes clutchless upshift when the engine is cold and I am keeping the RPMs low. The loads are small during calm, low-RPM acceleration, and because I have to shift 5 times by the time Im doing like 35mph, I would rather make it a little smoother.

I also clutchless downshift when I am making a turn without a turn lane, and want to use my left hand to signal to traffic behind me (in addition to my blinkers). Well, maybe I do it more than that; I sometimes forget which technique I use at any given time, heh. Downshifts are still very smooth and quite fun. Upshifts under high loads just make me a little nervous now, for my tranny's sake.

one of the things my MSF instructure told us was that people tend to get into bad habits about motorcycle riding because they learn from people that posses those bad habits themselves. I would think using clutchless shifting would be a bad habit, if the clutch is there why not use it? It takes a second to pull in the clutch and up/down shift...I always use the clutch and will always continue to use it. but to each their own.

When I first got my bike I wouldn't have even entertained the thought of clutchless shifting, but after I read this thread a month or two ago, I decided to give it a shot on the way to work the next day, and I was shocked at how easy it is. I find that for me it's not very smooth going 1st-2nd and sometimes 2nd-3rd. It still seems to pop right in, but I think I need to work on the RPM/throttle position a little bit, as sometimes it's a bit herky-jerky. From 3rd gear on, it seems really easy and smooth, and so I tend to do it more while I'm in the upper gears.

I've downshifted to 3rd-ish with no clutch, and that seems to go pretty well, but that's still a work in progress for me.

I practice every now and then just because it could conceivably come in handy if I'm on a bike and something goes wrong with the clutch, and as sort of a game to see if I can make it shift really smooth that way. The thing it's impressed upon me the most is that when you do use the clutch, you certainly don't need to haul it all the way in every time.

Oh, I almost forgot. This comes in really handy when you need to shift and wave at the same time! :D

I would think using clutchless shifting would be a bad habit, if the clutch is there why not use it? It takes a second to pull in the clutch and up/down shift...I always use the clutch and will always continue to use it. but to each their own.

I prefer the clutch unless I'm really getting on it and passing someone or in the case I have a passenger on back. In both cases, clutchless is much smoother. Many of the pros (Lee Parks, for example) recommend clutchless saying it's smoother on the transmission (when done correctly), and less wear and tear on the clutch cable. It's a good skill to be comfortable with in case your clutch cable ever goes out on you mid-ride.

Shifting clutchless can be fun :D

Someone on the boards asked about it so I tried it when I was out today.
Seems to me that shifting into 3'rd and above without the clutch is very easy with no lurch when done right. Going into 2'nd from first lurches because of the gearing difference I believe.
For me When I hit 8.4Kish rpms I just pressured the shifter lightly then rolled off throttle and right back on.
Slips right into the next gear and keeps going.

Clutchless up is not that bad on the engine. Clutchless down is :(

Clutchless down is :(

why do you say that?

Use a clutch, save a trany.
You can replace the clutch much easier/cheaper.

It's like people who downshift all the time and let the engine run rpm down.. (stoplights)
Save your engine/gas/trany, use your brake pads, when possible.

Shifting/using the cultch is one of my favorite things about riding :)

clutchless upshifting is for stunts.
Maybe even drag racing..

Cars can shift without the clutch too if you are careful and know how.

i use clutchless ups and down on a regular basis for various uses. fyi one bike has almost 40k miles... the other getting close to 15k.

Search for "clutchless" on this site, and a bunch of threads come up on this same discussion.

Here's one of 'em. (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51617) :thumbup:

clutchless upshifting is for stunts.
Maybe even drag racing..


LOL! Ok, guess it can be used for such. It can also be used correctly to save wear and tear on the tranny and can result in very smooth upshifts, particularly when really getting on the the throttle (ie: when passing someone). So there are practical uses for clutchless too.

I noticed its best when your really beating on it, for the smoothest shifts that is.
Anyways, yes its fun to shift. I was doing this because someone asked.
Not because I dont like clutching lol.

LOL! Ok, guess it can be used for such. It can also be used correctly to save wear and tear on the tranny and can result in very smooth upshifts, particularly when really getting on the the throttle (ie: when passing someone). So there are practical uses for clutchless too.
I'm sorry. Using your clutch is smoother in every way on the ninja250. It shifts much harder than a SS or 600 does. CLUNK! A lot of books tend to generalize things that can vary greatly from bike to bike.

It is nice for predictability when going from first to second in a wheelie though.
You know you'll make it into second if you hold up on that shifter until you jiggle the throttle.
There's no question on which part I'd rather place my load for normal every day use.
A commuter would benefit (IMO) from using their clutch more than their engine for braking and shifting.

I upshift without a clutch when I'm lazy, coming off a hill and can't feel my knees anymore from contorting them into awkward positions while playing with the devil.

"Generally", if there is any question weather or not something is gonna be good to a part not meant to be easily replaceable when it's worn, I'll go with the side of the part that will.

When I'm gonna pass, I also usually downshift to higher RPM and gun it. Upshifting comes after I've passed the mofo. The jetted/poded/piped ninjette will spank somebody in one gear rather quick. Usually the gear lower than I'm cruising in.

I'm sorry. Using your clutch is smoother in every way on the ninja250. It shifts much harder than a SS or 600 does. CLUNK! A lot of books tend to generalize things that can vary greatly from bike to bike.


i disagree... maybe urnotdoinitrite? i will say it is not as nice as a SS transmission but ... "clunk"? it sounds like something is wrong there.


It is nice for predictability when going from first to second...


i agree.


... in a wheelie though.


... i ... wait what?... you really like wheelies don't you? lol :D


You know you'll make it into second if you hold up on that shifter until you jiggle the throttle.


iif you do it right, yes. if you do it wrong, no.


There's no question on which part I'd rather place my load for normal every day use.
A commuter would benefit (IMO) from using their clutch more than their engine for braking and shifting.


umm... isn't the engine lubricated and designed to have these forces on it? doesn't the clutch use a friction mechanic that is designed to wear away over time? like brakes?


I upshift without a clutch when I'm lazy, coming off a hill and can't feel my knees anymore from contorting them into awkward positions while playing with the devil.


i clutchless upshift when i'm applying a lot of load. it is much smoother (no pogo) and works better and is quicker than the clutch. (maybe by only 1/16th or 1/32nd of a second) especially on my 600... if i'm WOT and use the clutch it will slip for a quarter second or so (needs replacing)... no clutch, no slip. but the same is true for the 250 just minus the slipping clutch... keep the load on, no pogo.


"Generally", if there is any question weather or not something is gonna be good to a part not meant to be easily replaceable when it's worn, I'll go with the side of the part that will.


i'm still not sure what exactly is damaged on a clutchless upshift when done correctly? can you please inform me? maybe can you provide photos of a part that has been damaged due to clutchless upshifts? i'm not talking about a shot tranny due to improper shifting, but rather for example, a transmission run its paces in a race bike operated by someone who knows what they're doing?


When I'm gonna pass, I also usually downshift to higher RPM and gun it. Upshifting comes after I've passed the mofo. The jetted/poded/piped ninjette will spank somebody in one gear rather quick. Usually the gear lower than I'm cruising in.

unless they're a dick riding a zr1 trying to screw with you... :mad:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it! ;)

I'm sorry. Using your clutch is smoother in every way on the ninja250. It shifts much harder than a SS or 600 does. CLUNK! A lot of books tend to generalize things that can vary greatly from bike to bike.


Never apologize for your opinion. We all have our own. :thumbup: Something else to consider is maybe you are doing clutchless incorrectly. When done right, it's about as smooth of an upshift as you could imagine.

I do it all the time once I am in the open .But not in traffic .It is fine IF done right.It is like magic. If done wrong is will cause problems. But mostly it just wont shift. The biggest problem is not the trans. If you are going hard and miss a shift with or with out a clutch,The engine could over rev and cause the valves to hit the pistons.

urnotdoinitrite


I approve of this word :thumbup:



I shift w/o clutch often when I'm droning on the interstate, skooched to the right, with my left hand kinda on my hip, or when I'm tryin to give that Civic VTEC in the next lane a beat down :thumbup:

I approve of this word :thumbup:



I shift w/o clutch often when I'm droning on the interstate, skooched to the right, with my left hand kinda on my hip, or when I'm tryin to give that Civic VTEC in the next lane a beat down :thumbup:

Careful.... hes got the VTEC yo!
http://forum.fragfest.com.au/index.php/fa/618/0/

Careful.... hes got the VTEC yo!
http://forum.fragfest.com.au/index.php/fa/618/0/

Your image is broken.

Vtec is safe as long as you're not around to get sucked into tue vortex when he hits it.

Your image is broken.

Vtec is safe as long as you're not around to get sucked into tue vortex when he hits it.

Image shows on 2 pc's here :confused::confused: oh well.

i see the image as well

no image here. you guys must be members of that forum that the pics are from?

LOL
How the hell could you not do it right if your not using the clutch.
C'mon guys..
Let off the gas and up the gear goes if you're holding the shifter up. Slips right in.
Still twice as loud and violent as my GSXR which doesn't even stutter when you do it.

My GSXR is at least twice as smooth on a clutchless upshift.
Ninja is not a super tuned sport bike made for clutchless upshifting.

kkim copy paste image link into addy bar
It didn't work here at first.

I do it all the time once I am in the open .But not in traffic .It is fine IF done right.It is like magic. If done wrong is will cause problems. But mostly it just wont shift. The biggest problem is not the trans. If you are going hard and miss a shift with or with out a clutch,The engine could over rev and cause the valves to hit the pistons.

Oh, dang, man!
That just might sound catastrophic to the engine completely, ey?
To prevent the even slightest possibility this could happen, it's a good idea to use a clutch.
All I'm saying.. (to the rest of the crowd. You have supported my theory in a way.)
I won't get anywhere with this conversation because neither side can or can't prove it.

Like I said earlier, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Put the load on the parts that are made to wear. As a self proclaimed mechanic, that is the advice I would give. That way I can fix it if it breaks. The two things I can't do are engine heads and trany's (yet). Fairly sure I can tackle a clutch tho.

..and V-tech is no match for a GSXR.
I don't race cars anymore. lol.
They were fun while they lasted.
Now all the cars I could actually afford are TOO SLOW. The 250R is faster.

Oh, dang, man!
I won't get anywhere with this conversation because neither side can or can't prove it.

bring your bike over and i'll prove it ;)

I tried this a few times; didn't seem that difficult although I have no idea if my technique was right. Basically applied some light pressure underneath the shifter, rolled off the throttle and the shifter clicked up and then gradually reapplied throttle again. It was cool for about 5 seconds just to try it out :cool:. I just don't have any real reason to not use the clutch.

I tried this a few times; didn't seem that difficult although I have no idea if my technique was right. Basically applied some light pressure underneath the shifter, rolled off the throttle and the shifter clicked up and then gradually reapplied throttle again. It was cool for about 5 seconds just to try it out :cool:. I just don't have any real reason to not use the clutch.


You would know if it wasn't right, so if it felt smooth, it was probably ok.
My bike must be pretty darn "tuned" because its clutchless upshift is very smooth, easy, and quite fun!
I won't add to the argument because there is no "right" way. I will say this, however, it's really good to know and be comfortable with clutchless shifting in case your clutch cable ever breaks while you're riding. Otherwise, there is no right or wrong way to shift, clutch or not, but there is a faster, more fun way! :thumbup:

You would know if it wasn't right, so if it felt smooth, it was probably ok.
My bike must be pretty darn "tuned" because its clutchless upshift is very smooth, easy, and quite fun!
I won't add to the argument because there is no "right" way. I will say this, however, it's really good to know and be comfortable with clutchless shifting in case your clutch cable ever breaks while you're riding. Otherwise, there is no right or wrong way to shift, clutch or not, but there is a faster, more fun way! :thumbup:

there may not specifically be a "right way" but there is definitely a "wrong way" ;)
as to your bike being tuned... i'd say it's more likely your right wrist being tuned.

So.... What about clutchless down shifting? I've gotten pretty darn good at it and honestly it makes riding easier if I need to drop a gear really fast for something

So.... What about clutchless down shifting? I've gotten pretty darn good at it and honestly it makes riding easier if I need to drop a gear really fast for something

its a very handy tool in my opinion... i'm a firm believer that when done right can be very smooth as well. i know a lot of people think its bad... i don't know. if it's that smooth i can't see how it could be bad... maybe they suffer from Urnodoinitriteitus?

Put the wear/damage issue of to the side for the moment. The reason that people don't recommend clutchless downshifting it that it's somewhat pointless. When you're downshifting, you are making the engine go faster for a given road speed. If you do it instantaneously without clutching in and out, the moments it takes to get the engine up to speed cause the rear wheel to lose traction, even if for a moment.

So if you're planning to downshift without the clutch because of braking hard and want it to happen quickly, that's a terrible time to intentionally cause the rear to break traction. Watch how smooth people are when coming into corners on track with the clutch hand, very slowly letting it out to allow the rear wheel to exactly match the engine speed without ever breaking traction.

But if you're going slowly enough and just experimenting in a straight line while not at the traction limits, sure, it can be done, but with zero performance benefit, and a greater risk of futzing up your shift forks as it's harder on the drivetrain to have the engine accelerated by the rear wheel than it is for it to decelerate naturally on upshifts.

Put the wear/damage issue of to the side for the moment. The reason that people don't recommend clutchless downshifting it that it's somewhat pointless. When you're downshifting, you are making the engine go faster for a given road speed. If you do it instantaneously without clutching in and out, the moments it takes to get the engine up to speed cause the rear wheel to lose traction, even if for a moment.

So if you're planning to downshift without the clutch because of braking hard and want it to happen quickly, that's a terrible time to intentionally cause the rear to break traction. Watch how smooth people are when coming into corners on track with the clutch hand, very slowly letting it out to allow the rear wheel to exactly match the engine speed without ever breaking traction.

But if you're going slowly enough and just experimenting in a straight line while not at the traction limits, sure, it can be done, but with zero performance benefit, and a greater risk of futzing up your shift forks as it's harder on the drivetrain to have the engine accelerated by the rear wheel than it is for it to decelerate naturally on upshifts.

i absolutely agree when trying to go fast... or rather slow down fast. but when i'm just putting around on the street and casually slowing down for a turn or whatever where someone else has to yield to me, on my fzr the revs are usually around 3kish... it doesn't seem like its nearly enough to lose the rear... if i do it right it feels very smooth... do you think its still doing damage? it definitely doesn't give any performance benefit but i personally found that noone seems to ever see my signals when i use them... i have to go through a few intersections frequently where cars going 'straight' for them have to yield to the other flow of traffic and when i used signals i would get cut-off fairly frequently... it seems to me like i noticed (although it may just be me overthinking it and nothing is actually changed) people respond much more accordingly to my hand signals... so if i'm using hand signals and need to get another down shift in, clutchless is very handy to me. what do you think? i'm probably overthinking it... maybe?

Clutchless downshifting isn't recommended. I wouldn't make it a habit.

I haven't bothered to cluchless upshift the ZX yet. It's fast enough that I don't need to worry about losing a 1/4 of a second when shifting. The 250, on the other hand, I made it a habit to clutchless upshift. It was noticeably quicker, since it was putting down the power faster, and it was smoother than using the clutch.

Clutchless downshifting isn't recommended. I wouldn't make it a habit.

+1 totally agree here. Though I know how to do it in case of an emergency clutch cable snap or something, I never actually clutchless downshift in practice. Clutchless upshifting is where it's at! :thumbup:

I had two separate people walk up to me at track days, recommending that I start clutchless upshifting when accelerating in the straights. Both said that it sounded like I was burning through my clutch, and they were right -- the clutch slips for about half a second when you upshift in high (10.5K+) RPMs. From gear 3 on up, clutchless upshifting has been way smoother and it's easy to tell by listening that the bike likes it better. If I try to shift too close to the redline without the clutch, I usually miss the shift, but otherwise it works great.

It's not that I'm encouraging it, but for me, it's one great way of shifting,,been doing it eversince, take note,,,clutchless upshifting, ayt>>> so, is anyone into this... what's your take...be heard...RIDE safe!!!!

would this not be hard on the tranny

depends on how much throttle i'm giving it... WOT == clutchless.

naahh..shifting up is quite easy, you simply let off the throttle just a bit then shift.,,that would be no cause for alarm..I do it at any speed under most circumstances...ooopss,,don't forget the clutch when downshifting..RIDE safe!! :D:D:D

i dunno, i like using my clutch hand....otherwise i feel like im riding an automatic :p

I made this little video when someone else asked about it. All this is clutchless shifting. Do it all day, every day.

21542883

/merged

would this not be hard on the tranny


This poll shows 90% of membership shift with clutch most or all of the time. That would not only answer your question but convey that 90% of membership are also responsible riders most of the time. The other 10%, like alex s. or kevin2109 or cycnical c are irresponsible riders due to riding with their throttles wide open as much as possible, enabling them to shift clutchless all the time, like racers do on tracks. Their the guys you see everyday on the highway giving bikers a bad name by their irresponsible over the top speeding/multiple lane changing "gotta be numero uno" egos and other bad habit practices. Time will catch up to them, probably has in some cases to them and their ilk already, but unlike us they would never post in the "I went down" column.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading three pages of posts by riders who use their clutch, it's actually a way of telling others a bit about how you ride, which would be "responsibly." Happy Trails, Ride On!

It's gotta be happy hour somewhere... :)

I made this little video when someone else asked about it. All this is clutchless shifting. Do it all day, every day.

21542883

Very cool video man, looks like I'm doing it right. I don't do the clutchless upshift so much, I haven't got the timing down right yet.

would this not be hard on the tranny

No, once you get the hang of it its much smoother than using the clutch.

I rarely use the clutch going up other than 1st to 2nd or in heavy traffic.

Put a slight preload on the shifter, blip the throttle forward at the same time as you flick up on the shifter & it should work.

You can also do it by putting just the right amount of preload on the shifter & blipping off the throttle for a fraction of a second, but that takes more practise.

give it a try & see if it works well for ya. the first one or 2 may be clunky but you should get the hang of it after a couple of tries.:thumbup:

This poll shows 90% of membership shift with clutch most or all of the time. That would not only answer your question but convey that 90% of membership are also responsible riders most of the time. Their the guys you see everyday on the highway giving bikers a bad name by their irresponsible over the top speeding/multiple lane changing "gotta be numero uno" egos and other bad habit practices. Time will catch up to them, probably has in some cases to them and their ilk already, but unlike us they would never post in the "I went down" column.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading three pages of posts by riders who use their clutch, it's actually a way of telling others a bit about how you ride, which would be "responsibly." Happy Trails, Ride On!

Not nessicarily, I hadn't heard of clutchless upshifting for the first 15 months or so that I had bikes. if during that time you asked the same question I'd of hit 'never' & thought why would you not use it?



The other 10%, ... are irresponsible riders due to riding with their throttles wide open as much as possible, enabling them to shift clutchless all the time, like racers do on tracks.

It was explained to me that its a better way of up-shifting & how to do it properly I find its a much smoother way of going up the gears now & it feels like its more natural for the bike. I use it the vast majority of the time, both going for a quick spin & on my daily commute (where I am not wide open throttle all the time).

The other 10%, like alex s. or kevin2109 or cycnical c are irresponsible riders due to riding with their throttles wide open as much as possible. Their the guys you see everyday on the highway giving bikers a bad name by their irresponsible over the top speeding/multiple lane changing "gotta be numero uno" egos and other bad habit practices. Time will catch up to them, probably has in some cases to them and their ilk already, but unlike us they would never post in the "I went down" column.

I'm not exactly sure how I got dragged into this. I've never made a single post here or on any other forum related to my own riding technique or habits on the road, (unlike you, my ego isn't so big that I presume to be an authority on anything of the kind) or anything at all related to speeding or aggressive riding. I've never been down but I know that doesn't make me invincible. I certainly don't have the attitude that it's par for the course like some people here do. Whether I'd make a post about it or not? I guess we'll find out when it happens.

And I suppose I could ask the same of you. When you do finally try clutchless upshifting (if you haven't already) and realize how stupid you were for baselessly bashing the technique all this time, will you create a thread admitting your mistake and proclaiming yourself the dunce that you are? Or will your ego get between you and the keyboard?

:pop2:

The other 10%, like alex s. or kevin2109 or cycnical c are irresponsible riders due to riding with their throttles wide open as much as possible, enabling them to shift clutchless all the time, like racers do on tracks. Their the guys you see everyday on the highway giving bikers a bad name by their irresponsible over the top speeding/multiple lane changing "gotta be numero uno" egos and other bad habit practices. Time will catch up to them, probably has in some cases to them and their ilk already, but unlike us they would never post in the "I went down" column

If you would get off your soapbox and actual ride your bike you would understand that you have no idea what your talking about. You don't have to WOT a bike to clutchless shift, I can clutchless shift all the way to 6th and still be close to the speed limit. I can also cluthless shift all day long on the track at WOT. So stop reading online forums and watching YouTube and learn your bike
Posted via Mobile Device

coondog, im sorry you feel this way. Maybe enjoying a nice ride with your buddies will tame your magestic ferocity. Try a warm bath with epsom salt after. Feels great when your vagina gets dry from too much gyno cruising :-) no offense brother, we all ride how we ride,
No need to hate

Try a warm bath with epsom salt after. Feels great when your vagina gets dry from too much gyno cruising :-)

Pro tip: Too much epsom salt can actually cause MORE dryness. Best to stick with plain warm water and perhaps some external lotion. :thumbup:

On topic: I use the clutch cuz that's my habit.

Even in the race I never shift clutchless.

Makes no difference whatsoever.

Even in the race I never shift clutchless.

Makes no difference whatsoever.

Same here, didn't make a difference in my lap times.

This poll shows 90% of membership shift with clutch most or all of the time. That would not only answer your question but convey that 90% of membership are also responsible riders most of the time. The other 10%, like alex s. or kevin2109 or cycnical c are irresponsible riders due to riding with their throttles wide open as much as possible, enabling them to shift clutchless all the time, like racers do on tracks.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading three pages of posts by riders who use their clutch, it's actually a way of telling others a bit about how you ride, which would be "responsibly."

Dude, the world is not black and white. There are gray areas and other ways that are just as good as yours. Clutchless is smooth, easy on the tranny (when done correctly), and most of your most experienced riders on this board do use clutchless upshifting. Open your mind a bit. Just because someone's way is different from yours does not make it wrong. I'm not a squid and am a responsible rider, but I use clutchless about 75% of my upshifts. Doing so does not make me an "irresponsible rider".

Even in the race I never shift clutchless.

Makes no difference whatsoever.

Must be different for the 250 :p Clutchless is much quicker on the 636 then with the clutch

Must be different for the 250 :p Clutchless is much quicker on the 636 then with the clutch
My fzr clutch slips when i use the clutch when im getting throttle happy. It doesnt slip if you dont use it.... Not slipping seems to me to be faster than a slipping clutch :mad:

Must be different for the 250 :p Clutchless is much quicker on the 636 then with the clutch

Really? Cuz I don't shift clutchless on my CBR600RR and the results are the same. :p

K question: How do you shift really smooth without the clutch. I tried up-shifting clutch-less today for the first time. It is kinda cool but feels really unnatural to me (Maybe because I have been driving manual car since I started driving 6 years ago and riding 4 months ago). I tried shifting this way a couple of times but I couldn't get it to be smoother than if I used the clutch like some people said it should be. So to be smoother I just need to work on timing right?

K question: How do you shift really smooth without the clutch. I tried up-shifting clutch-less today for the first time. It is kinda cool but feels really unnatural to me (Maybe because I have been driving manual car since I started driving 6 years ago and riding 4 months ago). I tried shifting this way a couple of times but I couldn't get it to be smoother than if I used the clutch like some people said it should be. So to be smoother I just need to work on timing right?

the smoothest clutchless will be from WOT, cutting the throttle as quickly as you can and getting back on the gas as soon as you can after the gear goes in. each bike is a little different, but if you work out how fast your hand moves, the only difference is how far back you twist the throttle to get it to mesh in smoothely

the smoothest clutchless will be from WOT, cutting the throttle as quickly as you can and getting back on the gas as soon as you can after the gear goes in. each bike is a little different, but if you work out how fast your hand moves, the only difference is how far back you twist the throttle to get it to mesh in smoothely

Gotcha. Thanks. I will have to try that out next time I ride. I wasn't doing it from WOT. Might have been the issue. Plus I couldn't feel the throttle with my huge winter gloves on today, so it was hard to tell how quickly i was twisting the throttle.

the smoothest clutchless will be from WOT, cutting the throttle as quickly as you can and getting back on the gas as soon as you can after the gear goes in. each bike is a little different, but if you work out how fast your hand moves, the only difference is how far back you twist the throttle to get it to mesh in smoothely

:whathesaid:

Clutchless is best used when you're accelerating fairly quickly, rather than during slow, in-traffic accelerations. It's smooth as silk when done correctly!

WOW! I LOVE this up-shifting clutchlessly! It is so easy and so awesome! At first it was weird not using the clutch but the quickness (or mental thinking that it is quicker) makes it so awesome. I can't believe how smooth it is. I fell in love with my bike/riding all over again today. Everyone should try this at least a couple of times to see if they like it. At first I was skeptical but it was so nice once I really learned it. I can see how it helps in the twisties when you are leaning off the bike, you don't have to worry about grabbing the clutch. It just frees up your hands/mind and allows you to really focus on the main task at hand. :thumbup:

Yay! Glad you enjoyed your clutchless experience! You're right that in the twisties, it IS nice to use clutchless, but just to clarify, it's important to already be in the gear you want to exit the turn before doing any hanging off. Shifting in the middle of a tight corner (clutchless or with the clutch) is not recommended. All shifting should be done as you're setting up to enter the corner. :thumbup:
REALLY glad you enjoyed your clutchless ride!

Yay! Glad you enjoyed your clutchless experience! You're right that in the twisties, it IS nice to use clutchless, but just to clarify, it's important to already be in the gear you want to exit the turn before doing any hanging off. Shifting in the middle of a tight corner (clutchless or with the clutch) is not recommended. All shifting should be done as you're setting up to enter the corner. :thumbup:
REALLY glad you enjoyed your clutchless ride!

Oh yes I know not to shift in the corner. I was talking about at the exit of a turn. When you want to shift up but are still semi leaning off the bike. Sorry for not being clear in my earlier post.

I would like to change my vote to more than sometimes but less than most of the time! :)

So.... What about clutchless down shifting? I've gotten pretty darn good at it and honestly it makes riding easier if I need to drop a gear really fast for something

Really bad idea on a street bike, as it guarantees loss of rear tire traction. However . . . awesome technique on a dirt bike heading into a corner. Best way to carry speed on the dirt is to get the back wheel out and clutchless downshift cuts your back tire out from under you so you can slide it round, plus it puts you in the right gear to go WOT once you are pointed in the right direction again. :thumbup:

I have used the technique on upshifts, but find it smoother and more reliable not to, resulting in better, more predictable ride and no risk of harm to the bike. More predictable is good. Benefits aren't worth it imho.

glad I found & read this thread. last Saturday I've done some ride with few friends, and got opportunities to try clutchless method on upshifting gear. Bit awkward and few mistake done on first few attempt, but did it like a pro on the way riding back to our town :D

I still mostly use the clutch but working on clutchless. When I do my part and timing properly its smooth as glass.

I always use the clutch for downshifting.

I always use the clutch for downshifting.

Most of us do. It IS better to use the clutch when downshifting, though once in a blue moon I'll do it clutchless. I prefer the clutch when downshifting, but prefer clutchless when upshifting in 2nd-5th gears. Don't try it from 1st to 2nd until you get REALLY good at it.

I'm considering myself good enough up shifting clutchless, but how exactly do we do on down shifting? do we blip throttle opposite way?

No, but I wouldn't recommend clutchless when downshifting. The VERY RARE times I use it when downshifting are if I need a quick accel, like to pass someone. However, even most of my passes, I just use the clutch a second or two before I make my move. It's very rare (and not recommended) that anyone should downshift clutchless. When clutchless downshifting, it's easier to screw it up, send your back tire into a spin, or hurt the tranny.
To answer your question, everything is the same when clutchless downshifting except you push the shifter down instead of up. You still want to twist the throttle the same way.

thanks for your detail explanation mate, will not practice cluctchless downshifting, just to experience it

My pleasure, mate. ;)

the other situation is if you are downshifting for a turn, while firing a heavy machine gun with your left hand... it gets hard to use the clutch so a clutch-less down shift is perfect. its why old military bikes were left hand throttle and clutch

It IS better to use the clutch when downshifting.

Woah there. It's the same both ways. In fact, it is actually easier to get a smooth, clutchless downshift than it is an upshift.

Woah there. It's the same both ways. In fact, it is actually easier to get a smooth, clutchless downshift than it is an upshift.

i disagree.

Don't just disagree. Disagree and explain to me why.

It could possibly be because in Australia everything is upside down. But I'm not so sure.

Woah there. It's the same both ways. In fact, it is actually easier to get a smooth, clutchless downshift than it is an upshift.


Never heard anyone else state your opinion as fact including very experienced and professional riders. Keith Code and David Hough come to mind as two who teach clutchless upshifting. I have never heard of them teaching clutchless downshifting.

Don't just disagree. Disagree and explain to me why.


Take your own advice here. Don't just disagree with my statement. Please explain why clutchless downshifting is easier than an upshift. That is quite an original statement, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Please explain why clutchless downshifting is easier than an upshift. That is quite an original statement, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Rightio I'll take a stab. Did you watch my little vid back a few pages? That's all clutchless and I don't know if that helps my explanation but It's there to look at anyway.

Easiest way to start off is to find a big hill and build some speed up going down it. You want to do the same as an upshift but in reverse.

So, with some speed back off the throttle and let the engine braking take over (no throttle). Now apply the same pre-pressure to the shifter like you would with an upshift but this time pushing down obviously. Blip the throttle (this step is simply said but the amount of blip depends on speed, rate of deceleration, gear you're in etc.). Just like that you're a gear lower.

It takes all those words to describe what in essence is just 'pressure shifter, blip' and you're done.

gordo, we know how to do it. the point is, what useful purpose does it serve?

You're just joking around with me, right? This thread is full of reasons why. Exactly the same as all the reasons for a clutchless upshift. They all apply to the down shift as well.

They all apply to the down shift as well.

No, I don't think they apply in the same way. The benefits you get from clutchless upshifting aren't there on a clutchless downshift.

Post #77 from right in this thread (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=329281&postcount=77).

I understand what you're saying in theory in regards to having the rear brake traction. In practice though I have not had any problems. This is both in daily commuting and also at the track.

It doesnt gain you anything though...

Rightio I'll take a stab. Did you watch my little vid back a few pages? That's all clutchless and I don't know if that helps my explanation but It's there to look at anyway.


If you've read through my thread, it's obvious I know how to do both. What I was asking was why you think downshifting is easier/better than upshifting without the clutch. You are the only one I've ever heard make that statement, so I wanted your opinion of why.

gordo, we know how to do it. the point is, what useful purpose does it serve?

Exactly.

You're just joking around with me, right? This thread is full of reasons why. Exactly the same as all the reasons for a clutchless upshift. They all apply to the down shift as well.

No, this thread is not full of reasons why. Read through it again and you'll see most people do not clutchless downshift, even if they upshift clutchess all the time. As I've stated, doing so when downshifting is riddled with potential problems.

I clutchless downshift when I'm lazy and rest my foot on the shifter then let off the throttle to slow down lol! Learned not to do that real quick, although shifting between 4 and 5 clutchless is easy on my bike and makes it easy to not have to grab the clutch if I don't want to when I'm city cruising

i use clutchless shifting so i can "flip the bird" to incoherent cagers, and scooters of course.

^^ The scooters are the best! :p

^ Kind!

;)

i was told by a very fast and very fancy ama racer not to use the clutch. then again he told me to drop 5 gears with one pull and let the slipper figure it out... :confused: dont think i can do that without a slipper clutch on my 600 :(

Who the **** told you that? Lol. I guess depending on what rpm and speed your at you can drop 5...
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Todd says thats what they do coming into CW turn 1 at BW. pulls the clutch, drops 5 gears, and dumps the clutch and lets the slipper do it

Todd says thats what they do coming into CW turn 1 at BW. pulls the clutch, drops 5 gears, and dumps the clutch and lets the slipper do it

Then I believe him lol :thumbup:

;)

;)

This month's issue of Motorcyclist has the clutchless/shifting debate handled by Keith Code in his monthly "Code Break" article.

if you watch 1:24:10, clearly determine about downshifting without the clutch............ the rest is your decision :)

if you watch 1:24:10, clearly determine about downshifting without the clutch............ the rest is your decision :)

link to the video?

And downshifting without the clutch is fine if you know what your doing :thumbup:

i think wandyhee might be talking about the part of the TOTW movie where keith code talks about how clutchless downshifting results in back tire traction loss, clutch-only downshifting results in to much engine braking and also leads to rear tire traction loss, and that the "fast guys" only do clutch+blip/revmatch downshifts. maybe?

errr, the one i'm talking about is in T0TW II video :). what the guy did is brake first, then clutchless downshifting (repeatedly until he get the slower speed he want for cornering). I've tried it but I'm not really smooth on it.

Clutchless down shifting is hard to do, and hard on the transmission since you have to match the RPM so the dog's will engage. I don't know why you would want to anyway. If you use the clutch you can control wheel hop, and corner entry speed on corner entry, like a poor mans slipper clutch. As for clutchless upshift, it is easy on the transmission, and the faster way around a track. Also if anyone is interested I have been using MPLS racings quickshifter kit on my Ninja and on my old Ducati 996 race bike for years they work great and are easy to install, and only $149.00!!!!! So you can get full throttle upshifts, and we all know we can't afford to loose any momentum on our 250's!!!!!...Oh and I do not work for MPLS just passing along an afordable tool.

good sharing duckracer. I also found it's hard to do braking & clutchless downshifting as in TOTW II video.. for now I prefer downshifting using clutch, which is also first option in those video

No problem, just trying to share some helpful info.

If it's hard to clutch less downshift, or at least properly, I am left confused by what I've personally done, albeit accidentally.
On at least 2 occasions, I KNOW I have downshifted just by having my foot rest on the shifter (out of laziness). As stated, it was accidental, but it felt like a seemless downshift, bike didn't get upset at all or make any loud slamming into gear sounds.
I don't recall if I left off the throttle during these times, but did I do something right??

However, I always heard it's bad for the tranny, so I haven't tried to make clutch less anything a practice... I figure they put the clutch in for a reason and I am not a track rider, so why bother.

Clutchless upshifting is the way to go!

it's habit now, up or down shift except from neutral to 1st gear