Most of crashes (rider's fault) occurs in corner. Mostly hitting them too fast. So when you enter a corner a little too fast, what do you do?

Lean more?
Rear brake?
Engine brake?
Soft front brake?
Abandon bike and bail?
Pray?

Don't quote me. But, I believe you lean more and accelerate a little. You'd be surprised how far the bike will lean. Make sure to look through the turn and not at the ground.

I typically trust the bike and hope it's capabilities are greater than mine. Complete the turn as planned. By the time you realize you're in trouble, you usually are. :p

Most of crashes (rider's fault) occurs in corner. Mostly hitting them too fast. So when you enter a corner a little too fast, what do you do?

Lean more?
Rear brake?
Engine brake?
Soft front brake?
Abandon bike and bail?
Pray?

I think it's more of people THINK they entered the corner too fast and so they panic. If you do enter a corner a little too fast, just ride the corner like you're supposed to and you're probably gonna be fine. Steady in, roll on your throttle from your apex, etc. If you enter the corner a lot too fast, do the same thing but pray too!

....
If you enter the corner a lot too fast, do the same thing but pray too! yup yup, praying definitely help you lean smoother :rotflmao:

Sometimes it's not really your fault. LOL

Vid here (http://www.vimeo.com/15971414)

Around 2:48 mark is when it happens.


For me, it's mostly I'm not entering the turn/corner fast enough. :D

If you're mind is telling you you're entering the turn/corner too fast just stand the bike up (assuming you're in mid-turn) and get on the brakes. But what most people don't understand is they think the speed you're entering the corner/turn is the speed you're be cornering which is not true. In other words, your "Oh shiet!" moment will most likely turn into a "Oh?" moment. :p

I typically trust the bike and hope it's capabilities are greater than mine. Complete the turn as planned. By the time you realize you're in trouble, you usually are. :p

+1

I push the bars a bit more, give a tad bit of throttle to get stable and trust the bike will hold.

I think it's more of people THINK they entered the corner too fast and so they panic. If you do enter a corner a little too fast, just ride the corner like you're supposed to and you're probably gonna be fine. Steady in, roll on your throttle from your apex, etc. If you enter the corner a lot too fast, do the same thing but pray too!

+1

If you think you're going in too hot, the only thing you can really do is either lean more or bail (or do all kinds of weird crap with the brakes). I'm willing to bet most noobs will bail first...or do things with the brakes. ;)

All in all, my emergency plan consists of falling back to maintenance throttle and leaning my brains out. I'd rather low side than touch the brakes and high side. My days of flying for the hell of it are well behind me.

I just clench my buttcheeks and hope i didnt ruin a pair of good underwear. :p

I think it's more of people THINK they entered the corner too fast and so they panic. If you do enter a corner a little too fast, just ride the corner like you're supposed to and you're probably gonna be fine. Steady in, roll on your throttle from your apex, etc. If you enter the corner a lot too fast, do the same thing but pray too!

Pretty much. If you panic you end up like this (note the bar angle vs. the forks. I hit a rock/small boulder and did a front flip w/ the bike. That's where the dirt/dents came from on the upper parts of the bike.)
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu109/vince_2149/My%20Crash/P6220058.jpg

The turn (I was going the opposite way the bike was facing.) http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu109/vince_2149/My%20Crash/P6220055.jpg

I could have made the turn at my speed too, more than likely. Just got overconfident and out rode my ability. Lesson learned and 10k clean miles since.

Most of crashes (rider's fault) occurs in corner. Mostly hitting them too fast. So when you enter a corner a little too fast, what do you do?

Lean more?
Rear brake?
Engine brake?
Soft front brake?
Abandon bike and bail?
Pray?

You forgot the most important option: ROLL ON THE GAS!

I think it's more of people THINK they entered the corner too fast and so they panic. If you do enter a corner a little too fast, just ride the corner like you're supposed to and you're probably gonna be fine. Steady in, roll on your throttle from your apex, etc. If you enter the corner a lot too fast, do the same thing but pray too!

I totally agree that most riders THINK they have entered the corner too fast so they panic and make several mistakes. Unfortunately, most of the options listed above, lean more, rear brake, engine brake, soft front brake, abandon bike and bail and pray are only going to make the situation WORSE and not better.

I agree with what rockNroll says about continuing to ride through the corner like you're supposed to and rolling on the throttle, though I would advocate doing so asap once the bike is turned and not necessarily waiting until the apex to do so.

So, how will rolling on the gas help ensure that you make it through the corner safely?

How might the above suggestions (lean more, rear brake, engine brake, soft front brake, abandon bike and bail.....) make the situation worse?

Misti

So, how will rolling on the gas help ensure that you make it through the corner safely?
How might the above suggestions (lean more, rear brake, engine brake, soft front brake, abandon bike and bail.....) make the situation worse?

Misti

I believe rolling on the gas makes the bike more stable by taking the slack out of the drive line and providing traction and pulls the bike through the turn. Too much front brake and rear brake will cause the bike to stand up and also can cause a lock up, resulting in less control. Engine braking in too low of a gear can cause the bike to dive and lose traction at the rear wheel. Engine braking in the right gear should be done before the lean into the turn.

Light-moderate braking on the rear brake will cause the bike to squat slightly, it lowers the center of gravity thus helping with traction but still allows the bike to power through the turn. The trick is knowing how much rear brake too apply. The rear brake can control or modulate your speed much better than the front brake and abrupt (sudden) throttle input.

All that put together is; Practice (practice is a confidence builder) and Pray before you get on the bike, prior to hitting a turn, set yourself and the bike up (engine braking, proper line and approach, looking through the turn) if you can prior to entering a turn, if you find yourself entering a curve too fast, stay calm and focus, continue to ride through the corner like you're supposed to, rolling on the throttle, doing so asap once the bike is turned and not waiting until the apex to do so, lean the bike a little more while applying some moderate rear brake and staying steady on the throttle. Stay on the bike. If you do lose it or you do lowside, having on good or proper gear, you will be able to in most cases walk away with little or no injury. Bailing or abandoning unnecessarily can cause injuries to you, not to mention damage to the bike, your wallet and ego. Most importantly is ride to your skill level and be safe.

whew..

I've been there before.., that feeling like you're entering a turn too fast. Just lean! (and apply gas to keep her stable!)

You'll be amazed at what the ninja will do, no panicking. Moderate braking works just fine as long as you don't freak out and grab a handful of brake (or rear for that matter, in a turn I NEVER use the rear brake.. I won't risk locking it up like that).

Never brake in a corner! The advice given so far is great, and there are tons of other cornering threads with a wealth of information if you want to read more. Your bike will lean a LOT further than you will be comfortable leaning it the first few times. Trust the bike. :)

Ok, look at the last picture of Vince's post. See those oil spots in the right lane? Those scare the hell out of me. Am I over-reacting, or are do those typically have significantly-reduced traction?

Someone enlighten me: I was under the impression that a whiff of rear brake will settle the bike mid turn. Not saying you let off the throttle or not continue the turn but just add at touch of brake to tighten the turn.

When I hit a corner too fast, I usually am thinking two things. GAS and LOOK THRU!

Sometime I am thinking a third thing....am I wearing clean underwear?...or am I STILL wearing clean underwear???!!! I think if I ever lowside my buttcheeks will tear of vinyl seat cover as bike slides across road.

I can't agree with those who say accelerate if you get into a corner too fast. That makes no sense to me. If a person is entering a corner too fast, then accelerating obviously makes the problem worse. On the other hand, abruptly getting off of the throttle is a bad idea because that upsets the balance of the bike. So I believe committing to the turn and leaning over more while maintaining some throttle would probably be the way to go. Since you are sitting down and reading this then you have the ability to make sure you don't head into a turn too fast so that you can accelerate through the turn. Doing the braking prior to the turn is the way to go. I think we can all agree about that.

Really depends on body position - riding like every corner is on the track puts your body in more of a position to have better control of the outcome, regardless of the actions that are taken (i.e. more throttle, minor use of rear, even slowing during a turn if needed).

The one time I high-sided, I would have been able to make a better choice rather than just quickly letting go of the throttle and using both brakes - which caused me to drift wide and hit gravel and then the fun started. I know for a fact, had I been in a more "racing state of mind" instead of just out enjoying the twisties, my reaction to a sudden red light from the bike in front would have been different because my body position would have been more aggressive; which lends itself to a variety of possible corrections.

I can't agree with those who say accelerate if you get into a corner too fast. That makes no sense to me.

People aren't saying accelerate. People are saying get on the gas. The problem with rolling off the gas or even adding more brake while in the turn is it causes the bike to do exactly what you don't want it to do. Run wide, and or lessen the available traction. Getting back on the gas better balances the the bike from the front to rear, and helps keep both ends of the bike well within their traction limits.


Doing the braking prior to the turn is the way to go. I think we can all agree about that.

If the bike is slowed down to the appropriate entry speed well before the turn, then no problem. It's a reasonable idea to keep a safety margin well below the bike's and rider's limits on the street.

People aren't saying accelerate. People are saying get on the gas. The problem with rolling off the gas or even adding more brake while in the turn is it causes the bike to do exactly what you don't want it to do. Run wide, and or lessen the available traction. Getting back on the gas better balances the the bike from the front to rear, and helps keep both ends of the bike well within their traction limits.




If the bike is slowed down to the appropriate entry speed well before the turn, then no problem. It's a reasonable idea to keep a safety margin well below the bike's and rider's limits on the street.

+1 on this, well stated. That is exactly what we are saying. It doesn't take much gas to stabilize the bike and get the weight off the front. Instead of coasting through a turn when you enter it too fast and certainly instead of getting on the brakes we are saying give a slight roll on with the throttle. Rolling on the gas will transfer the weight of the bike off the front and onto the back. This allows the suspension to work properly and allows the bike to maintain a predictable line.

Now, there are the occasional times when you might need to emergency brake in the middle of a corner to avoid hitting something unexpected. This is different from getting on the brakes in order to simply slow down (due to perceived too high entry speed). When these situations arise what is the safest method of doing so? How can you safely apply the brakes mid turn in an emergency situation?

Misti

I can't agree with those who say accelerate if you get into a corner too fast. That makes no sense to me. If a person is entering a corner too fast, then accelerating obviously makes the problem worse. On the other hand, abruptly getting off of the throttle is a bad idea because that upsets the balance of the bike. So I believe committing to the turn and leaning over more while maintaining some throttle would probably be the way to go. Since you are sitting down and reading this then you have the ability to make sure you don't head into a turn too fast so that you can accelerate through the turn. Doing the braking prior to the turn is the way to go. I think we can all agree about that.

I didn't see anyone else post this site yet, so I'll do it. Here's an answer to you question and is a good read on this topic
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Entering_a_turn_too_fast

Regarding the accelerating:
"Accelerate slightly through the turn. This is to balance the bike, not to speed up. Don’t grab a handful of throttle; just use slightly more than constant throttle. And don't do the opposite: Letting off the throttle will upset the bike’s suspension nearly as much as using the brakes. It overloads the front suspension and means more risk of a lowside."

Notice the "slightly" part. Like stated, it's to balance the bike, not to speed up and making the problem worse.

Really depends on body position - riding like every corner is on the track puts your body in more of a position to have better control of the outcome, regardless of the actions that are taken (i.e. more throttle, minor use of rear, even slowing during a turn if needed).

The one time I high-sided, I would have been able to make a better choice rather than just quickly letting go of the throttle and using both brakes - which caused me to drift wide and hit gravel and then the fun started. I know for a fact, had I been in a more "racing state of mind" instead of just out enjoying the twisties, my reaction to a sudden red light from the bike in front would have been different because my body position would have been more aggressive; which lends itself to a variety of possible corrections.

+1
If you havent rode the bike on the track. DO IT. Go, enjoy, learn. Riding over your own ability is easy if you have never done a trackday. riding over the bikes ability is hard with just "street skills".

I slow down while entering the corner, as soon as im in my turn i lean and roll the throttle as if i'm accelerating from a red light (slowly and smoothly)

Never ever break! Lean lean lean, a low side is ALWAYS better than a high side.

Never ever break!

Don't break is probably good advice for more than motorcycling :D

I think you meant "brake" but it is a common mistake :rolleyes:

To lean and commit and look where you want to go and not to panic is the key I think.

I've been surprised how hard I can be turning and then still brake or just roll off the throttle without any slippage. Granted, this is largely me trying to keep away from the absolute limits since this is all on the street, but it is definitely nothing like the "touch the brakes and die!" :P .

"I think you meant "brake" but it is a common mistake :rolleyes:"
How embarrassing, I is usually a good speller. Cause I is an ex college student.

"I've been surprised how hard I can be turning and then still brake or just roll off the throttle"
You are practicing, bad technique SR#1(Keith said so). For whatever reason you felt you needed to "brake" or roll off, there was a better solution. You will eventually find the point where you can't brake or just roll off anymore.

I personally still have trouble not doing it. SR#1 is hard to overcome.

put your foot down like they do on motards

Oh I know it's bad, but the solution to every possible mid-turn situation cannot always be "more throttle and lean harder." For example, in one of my cases I looked up to see I was headed strait for a large piece of cardboard. I did not want to risk going around it, because in approaching the edge of the road I could have hit some gravel or even dust. So, between the options of hitting the piece of cardboard at nearly full-lean and KNOWING I will crash, or rolling off the throttle to go over it as vertically as possible, I chose the latter (and survived). I am not saying this is correct or anything, but I think as long as you are being at least reasonably sane it is not a guaranteed crash to do anything but get on the gas and lean harder. But, like I said, this could very well be because I try to stay away from my absolute traction limits since this is all street riding, which gives me more fudge room.

put your foot down like they do on motards

That always seems crazy to me. My uncle tore all the ligaments in his knee (like, all the 'CLs) when he put his foot down to keep from falling sideways when doing a wheely on a dirtbike at maybe 15MPH. Like, most all of the tendons are some kind of rope now. I can't understand the logic in trying to brace a 300lb machine at 50mph with your human leg, lol.

I have saved 2 low sides by putting a foot down. Once was I was crossed up like a flat tracker when my rear tire hit wet pine needles, the other was a rear wheel slipping on a cold morning on the center painted line. I didn't so much slam it down as just kind of dab, and it was my last resort. I think dirt bike riding helps alot in these situations where you are often putting your inside foot down in the turns. J - many people hurt their knees dirtbiking like your uncle did when they catch their foot in a rut and the knee gets twisted. MX boots often have smooth soles so that the riders foot doesn't get too much traction in the dirt and put stress on the knee. I have friends who are expert level MX racers who have blown out their ACL in such ruts. Terrible injury, my daughter has had a torn ACL over a year now from a HS sport injury. She will probably get it fixed at the end of this school year. She continued to play sports with the injury and lots of leg lifting - bit I digress, LOL.

When I hit a corner too fast, I usually am thinking two things. GAS and LOOK THRU!


Lol, when I do go into a corner too fast I'm thinking OH CRAP OH CRAP OH CRAP OH CRAP..... Somehow my right wrist twists a bit more and I make it out OK...

^^^ oh yeah me too, well the oh crap part

That always seems crazy to me. My uncle tore all the ligaments in his knee (like, all the 'CLs) when he put his foot down to keep from falling sideways when doing a wheely on a dirtbike at maybe 15MPH. Like, most all of the tendons are some kind of rope now. I can't understand the logic in trying to brace a 300lb machine at 50mph with your human leg, lol.

the first time I did put my foot down to corner faster was just yesterday and almost purely out of reflex. i took the bike out around the block for a very small ride. the tires were cold and the temp was around 3degC. i wanted to take a right turn at an residential intersection. i was coming in too fast and i was already in a lean for the turn and knew front brake would wipe me out. same with lean too much because tyres were no where close to approaching leanable temps. there was a car stopped on the other lane of the street i wanted to turn onto. but it somehow worked out. so, putting your inside foot down and dragging it does make for a tighter corner w/o as much lean.

instinct told me that my foot would dislocate and rip out seeing how i was wearing sneakers w/o ankle support. i need to get some riding boots and try this more often though.

One reason I avoided the Hypermotard - I would be riding the bumpy backroads of Rhode Island with one foot down in every corner. When I first started riding the road I made a conscious effort to keep my feet on the pegs at all times (hard to do after riding dirtbikes since age 10 and now being in my forties), however I have only put foot out twice, in the situations above.

Most of crashes (rider's fault) occurs in corner. Mostly hitting them too fast. So when you enter a corner a little too fast, what do you do?

Lean more?
Rear brake?
Engine brake?
Soft front brake?
Abandon bike and bail?
Pray?

Think all the above has worked, at one time or another :)

I remember when I was just starting out I had a 'enter corner too fast - going to hit a house' moment. Being so brand new to riding at the time I did the stupidest thing in the world and grabbed a handful of front brake. I wasn't too leaned over (I was just starting the turn) but enough to make me think 'STUPID STUPID STUPID'. Amazingly, no trouble, no locking up, the bike just slowed down and I made the turn. :confused:

Afterwards, I went through it a thousand times, and didn't ride for a week (knowing I could do something so stupid). Obviously it's the only time I've grabbed the front brake during a turn, (and now I know much better, thanks ninjette.org!) but am still amazed that the bike just slowed down, no fuss, no problem. It still puzzles the hell out of me. (in a 'oh look, I didn't crash. Now lets NEVER do that again!).

All the advice here is great, but just wanted to share my cornering 'moment' (and if anyone can explain why I didn't launch into the air or low/highside, it would be appreciated)

Never ever break! Lean lean lean, a low side is ALWAYS better than a high side.

It is ideal to not have to brake in the middle of a turn though sometimes it is unavoidable and there is a better way to do it than what most people do. However I have a question about your comment, you say never ever brake because a lowside is always better than a highside. How does a highside occur? Do you think that if you just get on the brakes mid corner you are going to highside the bike? Can you clarify please? Thanks!

Misti

How does a highside occur? Do you think that if you just get on the brakes mid corner you are going to highside the bike? Can you clarify please? Thanks!

Misti

Sure thing. Here is a quick definition I found on Motorcycle-glossary.com

High Side: A type of motorcycle crash that occurs when the rear wheel starts to slide in a turn (sometimes due to a locked brake and the resulting skidding tire), and then suddenly grips the pavement (which could occur when letting off the brake) flipping the bike sideways. The name derives from the side of the motorcycle that the rider will separate from. If forcibly thrown over the bike, the rider is said to have dismounted on the high side.
Riders are usually advised to do a lowsider rather than a highsider if neither can be avoided. The highsider has the additional disadvantage of the rider often being catapulted into the air by the sudden jerking motion of the motorbike and the increased possibility of the motorbike sliding behind the rider with the potential of striking him or her.

Because highside accidents are so much more deadly than lowside accidents, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends that if a rider locks the rear brake, it should be kept locked until the motorcycle comes to a stop. If necessary, locking the front brake to deliberately cause a lowside is recommended. -

P.S. Here the example says locking the brake, but releasing the throttle will have the same effect, the bike will want to stand up. (not as violently)

Hope this helps clarify. I've never had to do either, thank god, knock on wood. But I concur, from the research I've done on You Tube, the lowside always seems the better choice.

"I think you meant "brake" but it is a common mistake :rolleyes:"
How embarrassing, I is usually a good speller. Cause I is an ex college student.

"I've been surprised how hard I can be turning and then still brake or just roll off the throttle"
You are practicing, bad technique SR#1(Keith said so). For whatever reason you felt you needed to "brake" or roll off, there was a better solution. You will eventually find the point where you can't brake or just roll off anymore.

I personally still have trouble not doing it. SR#1 is hard to overcome.

SR #1 is hard to overcome and in a lot of situations there are better solutions than getting on the brakes but there are some occasions where you may need to get on the brakes mid corner (usually to avoid hitting something) and there is a way to do it more safely. Keith Code will tell you the same thing, sometimes you need to get on the brakes mid corner but there is a technique to doing it right.

As JMcDonald says below, some cases require braking in the turn, like his example of having to avoid a piece of cardboard. He chose to add some brake and ride over the cardboard more straight up and down then to hit it in full lean, probably a good choice in this situation. The KEY to doing so is to stand the bike up more vertical at the same time as you are getting on the brakes.

The reason that most "brakes in corner" causes a crash is because the rider is at a considerable lean when he gets on the brakes. Brakes while leaning suddenly loads the front tire with weight and the combination of that weight while the bike is on the edge of the tire is what pushes you over the edge of traction limits. We all know that we can brake pretty hard while the bike is vertical so if you MUST get on the brakes mid corner then stand the bike up as much as possible before doing so."

Oh I know it's bad, but the solution to every possible mid-turn situation cannot always be "more throttle and lean harder." For example, in one of my cases I looked up to see I was headed strait for a large piece of cardboard. I did not want to risk going around it, because in approaching the edge of the road I could have hit some gravel or even dust. So, between the options of hitting the piece of cardboard at nearly full-lean and KNOWING I will crash, or rolling off the throttle to go over it as vertically as possible, I chose the latter (and survived).

Next question, what is the best (and fastest way) to stand the bike up mid turn IF you need to slow down, add brakes or avoid hitting something?

Misti

I would think that easing back on the throttle without cutting it would be the best solution (cardboard scenario). The Bike would stand up (reduce lean) then if you must apply brake at least the bike won't be as leaned over.

However I would probably try to go to the inside of the debris (more lean) than to try an stand up and brake. 1 step instead of 2, plus if you hit cardboard you'll probably low-side, if you stand up and still hit cardboard, you will be closer to the center of the lane or outside shoulder of road while sliding.

But like I said, I have trouble overcoming SR#1 so who knows exactly how I would react in situation, I'd like to think I could keep my composure and ride it out.

I remember when I was just starting out I had a 'enter corner too fast - going to hit a house' moment. Being so brand new to riding at the time I did the stupidest thing in the world and grabbed a handful of front brake. I wasn't too leaned over (I was just starting the turn) but enough to make me think 'STUPID STUPID STUPID'. Amazingly, no trouble, no locking up, the bike just slowed down and I made the turn. :confused:

Afterwards, I went through it a thousand times, and didn't ride for a week (knowing I could do something so stupid). Obviously it's the only time I've grabbed the front brake during a turn, (and now I know much better, thanks ninjette.org!) but am still amazed that the bike just slowed down, no fuss, no problem. It still puzzles the hell out of me. (in a 'oh look, I didn't crash. Now lets NEVER do that again!).

All the advice here is great, but just wanted to share my cornering 'moment' (and if anyone can explain why I didn't launch into the air or low/highside, it would be appreciated)

Once I was going up a ramp connecting one street to another (not highway ramp). The curve was somewhat tight. The ramp was 4 laned; two lanes for each direction traffic with small curb in the middle. Right after the curve ended, there was a stop light with cars already stopped. I was comming in too fast and did apply front brake while in a lean. I ALMOST felt the bike trying to up itself and the rear wheel sliding out. Any more brake than what I did apply would've sent me off into the other lane with oncomming traffic. So, never again. I just don't cover the front brake lever in a aggressive curve anymore.

But downshifting works fine for me.

push the outside clip on/bar.

How would the bike stand up with reduced thrust? Ive never had that happen under any circumstance. If you let off the gas and dont change steering, you will fall over to the inside, no?

And yeah I totally forgot to mention tht any time ibrake in a corner iam standing the bike up (with steering) before or gradually at the same time.
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How would the bike stand up with reduced thrust? Ive never had that happen under any circumstance. If you let off the gas and dont change steering, you will fall over to the inside, no?

Yes, my mistake. Releasing the throttle won't make bike stand up, but the weight distribution will change. More weight will be transferred to the front tire, increasing the possibility for it to slide out.

On my ninja I did a lot of trail braking - as long as the road was dry and the surface was clean. I feathered the brakes, never grabbing them too hard or abruptly. Due to the road conditions I got away from it.

On the 600RR I have ABS and I do a bit of trail braking. Everyone talks about the virtues of ABS on wet or sandy roads with the bike up straight. Misti - since California Superbike School is using the S1000RR are you seeing any corner braking by students using that bike with ABS on? Successful or unsuccessful as no one has really addressed cornering with ABS braking.

I do a lot of trail-braking if I want to make a turn into a parking lot or something, and am either trying to beat oncoming traffic or get out of the way of following traffic as quickly as possible. I have less traction issues if I get my weight far to the inside and can brake harder (and can thus enter the turn faster and / or have a larger margin of error).

But, it is not actually faster, so I try not to do it in spirited rides or if I will need to accelerate hard at the turn's exit. The transition from engine braking to on the gas upsets the bike enough that speed has to be significantly reduced to prevent a loss of traction, so any benefit of rushing into the turn is definitely outweighed by the slower overall corner and ESEPCIALLY exit speed.

I remember when I was just starting out I had a 'enter corner too fast - going to hit a house' moment. Being so brand new to riding at the time I did the stupidest thing in the world and grabbed a handful of front brake. I wasn't too leaned over (I was just starting the turn) but enough to make me think 'STUPID STUPID STUPID'. Amazingly, no trouble, no locking up, the bike just slowed down and I made the turn. :confused:

Afterwards, I went through it a thousand times, and didn't ride for a week (knowing I could do something so stupid). Obviously it's the only time I've grabbed the front brake during a turn, (and now I know much better, thanks ninjette.org!) but am still amazed that the bike just slowed down, no fuss, no problem. It still puzzles the hell out of me. (in a 'oh look, I didn't crash. Now lets NEVER do that again!).

All the advice here is great, but just wanted to share my cornering 'moment' (and if anyone can explain why I didn't launch into the air or low/highside, it would be appreciated)

Because street skills in most cases are not enough to exceed the bikes ability. You would be amazed at what these little 250s can do with the stock suspension stuff and a good set of tires.

Yes misti, I just turn harder into the turn to stand the bike up. Sometimes, I let the bike stand up independently of my body so i can get on the brakes more quickly (basically, I just let my body hang off like a normal hard turn).

As far as going around the cardboard, like I said the risk of hitting a low-traction surface on either edge of the road was too great (it was a large piece of cardboard).
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I didn't read all of the responses, but this is a timely thread for me to read. On my way home from work today, I turned into my housing development a little faster than normal. My natural reaction was to give it a little more throttle and to lean a little more. Made the turn without an issue.

I have a question.

When we are referring to the realization that you a going to fast, are we assuming this occurs BEFORE the lean is initiated, or after? I have been thinking we were assuming before, in which case I never have any problem trail braking while putting my weight to the inside to keep the bike upright as long as possible. If we are talking about AFTER the lean is initiated, then yeah either accelerating and leaning more, or standing the bike up and stopping are appropriate responses.

Don't feel stupid for braking. Although its not the thing to do it is a human survival instinct that is hard to not do. It just takes practice.
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Most of crashes (rider's fault) occurs in corner. Mostly hitting them too fast. So when you enter a corner a little too fast, what do you do?

Lean more?
Rear brake?
Engine brake?
Soft front brake?
Abandon bike and bail?
Pray?


Well.. after watching Twist of the Wrist II for the fourth time.. The proper way to handle coming into a corner too fast is to roll of the gas so u decrease speed and once you negotiate the turn roll on the gas... In the video it specifically states that if you try to lean more and accelerate you are setting yourself up for a crash... not that it is inevitable... just not the most prudent thing to do...

That makes more sense. Interesting that such a credible source seems to go so against the grain of what many seem to think is common doctrine? I really need to check out those books / DVDs.

most of you know what i'm talking about, but if you watch videos or see pics of people doing some hard corners, it looks like they're hanging off the bike and holding on with only one leg.

There's no MSF course here, just a written test, permit issued and then "good luck with not getting killed". so i've had basically no training except for jumping on and trying everything new as slowly and cautiously as I can.

I've done some pretty sharp corners but i don't think i hang off like that. I lean the bike, but try to keep my body centered. dunno if that makes sense. I still feel myself lowering to the ground going around the turn, but i dont think my form looks like the pics i've seen.

any techniques other than, "look where you're going" that would help?

I lean the bike, but try to keep my body centered. dunno if that makes sense. I still feel myself lowering to the ground going around the turn, but i dont think my form looks like the pics i've seen.

any techniques other than, "look where you're going" that would help?

By body centered do you mean over the bike while leaning? or you let the bike lean under you?

Because I think letting bike lean without you is bad. You upset the center of gravity. Its hard to explain without a visual.

Here, one of my local track gurus put this up on local forum.

3aW01UaHyC4
Hope it helps!

It is not that the center of gravity is "upset," it is just that the more you lean the bike, the more the tires inherently lose traction due to the angular motion of the rubber relative to the concrete. Think about how if the tire is leaning at an angle, but at that instant going in a strait line, a given point on the rubber will also be moving laterally, and not just vertically, if that makes sense.

Also, the bike will absorb road imperfections more readily without losing traction, again largely due to the increased traction.


But yeah, the more you lean off the bike, the more vertical the bike can be, and the more traction you have. This increased traction can be used to take the same turn at the same speed but with a larger mrgin of safety, OR it can be used to take the same turn at a higher speed with the same margin of safety, OR it can be used to make a tighter turn (like the inside line) at the same speed and with the same margin of safety.

By body centered do you mean over the bike while leaning? or you let the bike lean under you?

Because I think letting bike lean without you is bad. You upset the center of gravity. Its hard to explain without a visual.

Here, one of my local track gurus put this up on local forum.

3aW01UaHyC4
Hope it helps!

yeah i meant let the bike lean under me, but usually when i'm just going on a really wide but long turn.

so say im going to make a left turn, take my butt off the seat and hang off the left side of the bike, how do you hold on? hug with my right leg? I guess it's one of those things i'm gonna have to find a good road to try on, because most of the training i've had was through this site. lol

When I was getting used to hanging off, I found I was quite comfortable sliding my butt off, but keeping my inside knee against the bike. This allowed me to hold the bike between my knees for stability, but still get my torso far off to the inside. It was actuall stable enough that I would regularly take my left hand on the bars and stay in exactly the same position without losing any stability, and be quite comfortable. Now that I stick my knee out, I am having to re-learn locking my body into place with the reduced leg force available.

When I was getting used to hanging off, I found I was quite comfortable sliding my butt off, but keeping my inside knee against the bike. This allowed me to hold the bike between my knees for stability, but still get my torso far off to the inside. It was actuall stable enough that I would regularly take my left hand on the bars and stay in exactly the same position without losing any stability, and be quite comfortable. Now that I stick my knee out, I am having to re-learn locking my body into place with the reduced leg force available.

so what's the advantage of sticking your knee out as opposed to your old method?

Im not really sure yet. After getting used to it it does feel a little more natural, but I was doing it more for just to try to get more "proper" form than for increased performance. I feel significantly less stable with me knee out than with my inside knee squeezing the tank, but I have just been working to get better at it just to get better at it. On the street I doubt there is any difference in how well I can corner, though. In fact, when cornering on uneven surfaces, transitioning quickly, or when I've had to make adjustments mid-corner I feel like I am more stable and secure with both knees in...

Hmm, I might try to see if I can't do a few turns with my knee in to get a more recent comparison.

Next question, what is the best (and fastest way) to stand the bike up mid turn IF you need to slow down, add brakes or avoid hitting something?
Misti

push the outside clip on/bar.

Yes, this is the answer I was looking for. Simple but effective. IF you need to add brakes mid corner for an emergency situation then the best way to do so is to get the bike the most vertical as possible before adding the brakes and this is done by coming off the gas while pushing the outside clip on/bar to effectively countersteer the bike back up. You will run wide which is why it is not an idea thing to do but if you came flying around a corner only to encounter a 3 car pile up and had to get on the brake to avoid hitting them then your best option would be to steer the bike upright and get on the brakes.

Misti

Well.. after watching Twist of the Wrist II for the fourth time.. The proper way to handle coming into a corner too fast is to roll of the gas so u decrease speed and once you negotiate the turn roll on the gas... In the video it specifically states that if you try to lean more and accelerate you are setting yourself up for a crash... not that it is inevitable... just not the most prudent thing to do...

The best way to approach a turn is to have the entry speed set correctly BEFORE you turn the bike so that you can just turn the bike, and then roll on the gas. If you are approaching too fast (BEFORE YOU HAVE TURNED IN) then you roll off the gas, get on the brakes and get the speed set. Once you turn in then you would roll on the gas evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn.

If however you feel as though you are going too fast WHILE already in the corner then the worst thing you could do would be to try to get on the brakes and/or roll OFF the gas. In this situation, if you feel like you are going to fast in the middle of the corner, the best thing to do would be to hold the throttle steady or to continue to roll on slightly.

Misti

most of you know what i'm talking about, but if you watch videos or see pics of people doing some hard corners, it looks like they're hanging off the bike and holding on with only one leg.

There's no MSF course here, just a written test, permit issued and then "good luck with not getting killed". so i've had basically no training except for jumping on and trying everything new as slowly and cautiously as I can.

I've done some pretty sharp corners but i don't think i hang off like that. I lean the bike, but try to keep my body centered. dunno if that makes sense. I still feel myself lowering to the ground going around the turn, but i dont think my form looks like the pics i've seen.

any techniques other than, "look where you're going" that would help?

The reason why people hang off the bike and lean into the turn is because doing so allows you to get through the corner with less overall lean angle then if you stay upright on the bike (centered) or lean away from it. Having less lean angle means that you have MORE ground clearance and more available traction.

Before you try to hang your butt off the seat and completely change the way you ride I would suggest you practice letting your body "go with the bike." By this I mean instead of keeping your body centered on the bike you would let it kind of fall into the turn. I tell my students to try to be a good passenger on the bike and follow it wherever it goes. If you are going into a right hand turn then let your right shoulder and head fall into the turn, be one with the bike. It is counter-intuitive because we think that leaning with the bike will make it fall over or make the bike skid out from underneath us but it actually makes the bike stable and gives it more traction.

Cheers,

Misti

Before you try to hang your butt off the seat and completely change the way you ride I would suggest you practice letting your body "go with the bike." By this I mean instead of keeping your body centered on the bike you would let it kind of fall into the turn. I tell my students to try to be a good passenger on the bike and follow it wherever it goes. If you are going into a right hand turn then let your right shoulder and head fall into the turn, be one with the bike. It is counter-intuitive because we think that leaning with the bike will make it fall over or make the bike skid out from underneath us but it actually makes the bike stable and gives it more traction.

Cheers,

Misti

Lets try to look at this "how to hold on to the bike" from slightly different perspective:
Think about the basic forces which are affecting your body while the bike is going through a turn. You have the centripetal force pushing the motorcycle to change direction, which you "feel" working in opposite direction because your body wants to keep traveling in a straight line. And there is gravity pulling you to the ground. The wonderful thing of being leaned over is that the centripetal force is being countered basically the same way that gravity is being countered when the bike is traveling in a straight line - you are being pushed into the seat (more accurately seat is pushing your butt). Gravity on the other hand is countered partially by friction between your butt and the seat (and this increases with increased centripetal force), and with your outside leg and arm, resting on the tank. So if you keep everything nice and smooth as it should be, there is no real danger of falling off, so there is no real need to "hold on" too hard with any of your limbs. Your inertia is doing the hard stuff for you.

About cornerspeed, there is a topic here crack or roll (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58402) which covers some of the stuff mentioned in this one. Everyone has most likely read it though :D
Well, Misti is right, totally. About upwards/downwards/increasing/decreasing turns, you can always work with light roll on. Just get your entry speed right.

And one last thing on my mind atm. Keith Code also speaks about those, was it 70% ? Anyways it was some percentage of your capabilities at which you are able to completely keep your cool and do things properly. Dont underestimate that, it feels much better to feel all the things which are being spoken of here without being scared and panicking.

Misti, I have a question. I find myself much more confident in hard left turns than right turns. Do you ever encounter that in your schools?


I think it might possibly be there are more nice left turns around where I live than right turns, giving me both more practice time and more confidence in the tires holding. But the difference is pretty noticable.

Misti, I have a question. I find myself much more confident in hard left turns than right turns. Do you ever encounter that in your schools?


I think it might possibly be there are more nice left turns around where I live than right turns, giving me both more practice time and more confidence in the tires holding. But the difference is pretty noticable.


Lots of people feel this way out on the roads, right hand turns are sharper. After a little track time you'll feel more equal.

Also, throttle position is harder on right hand turns, especially if hanging off a bit. It can help to move your hand farther to the end of the throttle grip, and almost grab it from the side a bit. Will try and find a pic. But yeah, that's something that you don't have to deal with on left hand turns.

Ah yeah actually I do remember once thinking throttle control was more difficult when hanging off to the right. And I mean right-hand ramp curves, of which there are many with longer radii.
Posted via Mobile Device

Misti, I have a question. I find myself much more confident in hard left turns than right turns. Do you ever encounter that in your schools?


I think it might possibly be there are more nice left turns around where I live than right turns, giving me both more practice time and more confidence in the tires holding. But the difference is pretty noticable.

All the time :) It's normal. I'd say the majority of people feel more comfortable in left hand turns than in right, myself included and I think it has to do with the fact that the throttle is on the right. People feel a little bit more awkward leaning right, pressing the right handlebar and at the same time using the throttle.

M

Even in the dirt, where I have more experience, a left hand turn just seemed so much more natural. Leaned over in a berm on a right hander seems like there's less room to roll on more throttle. But in a left turn the right arm is up and seems like so much less restriction for the throttle hand. I know it sounds weird.
Posted via Mobile Device

Oh yeah I totally understand the feeling on dirt. In large part that was because if I need to use the back brake, I could still use my left foot to stabilize my bike as I slide it around the corner (mostly in trails riding). Obviously, I don't do a lot of sliding on the street, so I wasn't sure if that was just an old thing stuck in my head, or if there was something to it.


Though, discussing it and finding out why it is awkward (throttle hand position and manipulation), it felt a little less scary today.

The other day I decided to leave a few minutes early and hit a few of my favorite on / offramps on my way to work. One of them is a very quick s-curve (two inverted ~75-80* curves, with no strait section in between... aggressive exit speed is maybe 40-45mph). I guess I made it through the first part of the curve faster than I thought, because I think I came in a little fast for the second one. I didn't roll off the throttle in the second right-hander, but I didn't accelerate nearly as much as I have recently learned keeps the bike planted. Low and behold, the rear end started to step out. This wasn't out of the ordinary, so I stayed in it. However, it kept going and going, probably about 6" to the left as I made the turn. It happened really fast, but I am excited to report that I was able to semi-consciously look down the strait ahead (this was almost at the turn's exit) and stay on the gas! And, viola, she lined herself back up without any more fuss!

It was definitely a puckering experience. I remember that instant when the tire slipped beyond my current limit of comfort, and I thought "ah, well this is it, at least there isn't much around here for me to hit." But I guess I must have switched back to "fight" mode :D .


Anyways, I guess my point is this stuff works!

Had this happen to me last week. Johel and my self (both of us new riders) went riding this Friday to put the last break in miles on our bikes and decided to take some back roads (which are horrible in the Imperial Valley BTW). As we came into a S-turn i realized that it was much tighter than i had first thought and came in a little fast. By the time i realized how the turn was i was already initiating the lean. I felt my stomach drop and puckered her up while i said to my self "OH CRAP OH CRAP OH CRAP". My brain went into survival mode and remembered what i had read here on this same post a couple of days earlier lol. I leaned , throttled on the gas, looked throught the curve and out of my peripherals saw how i barely stayed on the yellow road line (gravel on the outside of it). We made it out fine, had to go home and change out my boxers though haha. Learned alot, dont panic, trust the bike.

BTW on the turn the road was all broken up and in bad shape, during my lean i hit some nasty bumps and actualy felt the bike jump almost like i was in the air :eek: that really did feel horrible.

"Trust the force, Luke."

http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/obi-wan-kenobi-01-large-300x225.jpg

The best way to approach a turn is to have the entry speed set correctly BEFORE you turn the bike so that you can just turn the bike, and then roll on the gas. If you are approaching too fast (BEFORE YOU HAVE TURNED IN) then you roll off the gas, get on the brakes and get the speed set. Once you turn in then you would roll on the gas evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn.

If however you feel as though you are going too fast WHILE already in the corner then the worst thing you could do would be to try to get on the brakes and/or roll OFF the gas. In this situation, if you feel like you are going to fast in the middle of the corner, the best thing to do would be to hold the throttle steady or to continue to roll on slightly.

Misti

Ah.... I see the distinction now... and have to say that I'll be putting that into practice if ever I face a similar situation... Or maybe i'll just give it a go :) thanks Misti !

The other day I decided to leave a few minutes early and hit a few of my favorite on / offramps on my way to work. One of them is a very quick s-curve (two inverted ~75-80* curves, with no strait section in between... aggressive exit speed is maybe 40-45mph). I guess I made it through the first part of the curve faster than I thought, because I think I came in a little fast for the second one. I didn't roll off the throttle in the second right-hander, but I didn't accelerate nearly as much as I have recently learned keeps the bike planted. Low and behold, the rear end started to step out. This wasn't out of the ordinary, so I stayed in it. However, it kept going and going, probably about 6" to the left as I made the turn. It happened really fast, but I am excited to report that I was able to semi-consciously look down the strait ahead (this was almost at the turn's exit) and stay on the gas! And, viola, she lined herself back up without any more fuss!

It was definitely a puckering experience. I remember that instant when the tire slipped beyond my current limit of comfort, and I thought "ah, well this is it, at least there isn't much around here for me to hit." But I guess I must have switched back to "fight" mode :D .


Anyways, I guess my point is this stuff works!

YAY!!!!

Had this happen to me last week. Johel and my self (both of us new riders) went riding this Friday to put the last break in miles on our bikes and decided to take some back roads (which are horrible in the Imperial Valley BTW). As we came into a S-turn i realized that it was much tighter than i had first thought and came in a little fast. By the time i realized how the turn was i was already initiating the lean. I felt my stomach drop and puckered her up while i said to my self "OH CRAP OH CRAP OH CRAP". My brain went into survival mode and remembered what i had read here on this same post a couple of days earlier lol. I leaned , throttled on the gas, looked throught the curve and out of my peripherals saw how i barely stayed on the yellow road line (gravel on the outside of it). We made it out fine, had to go home and change out my boxers though haha. Learned alot, dont panic, trust the bike.


YAY!!!



Ah.... I see the distinction now... and have to say that I'll be putting that into practice if ever I face a similar situation... Or maybe i'll just give it a go :) thanks Misti !

YAY!!!!

Glad you guys are all able to put some of this stuff into practice and that you are able to see the benefits and are noticing a difference! It pays to take a good hard look at your own riding and to work on improving aspects of it every day!

Sweet :)

Misti

Sure thing. Here is a quick definition I found on Motorcycle-glossary.com

High Side: A type of motorcycle crash that occurs when the rear wheel starts to slide in a turn (sometimes due to a locked brake and the resulting skidding tire), and then suddenly grips the pavement (which could occur when letting off the brake) flipping the bike sideways. The name derives from the side of the motorcycle that the rider will separate from. If forcibly thrown over the bike, the rider is said to have dismounted on the high side.
Riders are usually advised to do a lowsider rather than a highsider if neither can be avoided. The highsider has the additional disadvantage of the rider often being catapulted into the air by the sudden jerking motion of the motorbike and the increased possibility of the motorbike sliding behind the rider with the potential of striking him or her.

Because highside accidents are so much more deadly than lowside accidents, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends that if a rider locks the rear brake, it should be kept locked until the motorcycle comes to a stop. If necessary, locking the front brake to deliberately cause a lowside is recommended. -

P.S. Here the example says locking the brake, but releasing the throttle will have the same effect, the bike will want to stand up. (not as violently)

Hope this helps clarify. I've never had to do either, thank god, knock on wood. But I concur, from the research I've done on You Tube, the lowside always seems the better choice.

Cab, That was an EXCELLENT clarification. Thanks for the Recon.

YAY!!!!



YAY!!!





YAY!!!!

Glad you guys are all able to put some of this stuff into practice and that you are able to see the benefits and are noticing a difference! It pays to take a good hard look at your own riding and to work on improving aspects of it every day!

Sweet :)

Misti

Thanks for pointing us in the right direction!

Thanks for pointing us in the right direction!

Anytime, and please, if you have any specific questions that you want answered feel free to ask. Just start a thread and invite me to join or PM me or whatever!

Cheers and Happy Holidays!

Misti

Anytime, and please, if you have any specific questions that you want answered feel free to ask. Just start a thread and invite me to join or PM me or whatever!

Cheers and Happy Holidays!

Misti


You do realize that knowing all this stuff makes you hawt..... right?

Don't quote me. But, I believe you lean more and accelerate a little. You'd be surprised how far the bike will lean. Make sure to look through the turn and not at the ground.

Hey, guys. The riding course isn't available at the moment, but would like some info since info's always good, right?

Anyways.. Can someone tell me the science behind this whole 'looking through the turn'?

At the moment, the only reason I can think of that makes looking at the ground bad is because you're not aware what's in front of you (hazards?).

I read somewhere that you look through the turn, and when you look at where you want to go with proper speed/control, you will end up getting there.

Thanks o.O

I got a bit ADD about halfway down page 1, so don't hate me if this is already posted:

This might be obvious but, if you get in trouble in a corner, Do not pull the clutch all the way out. Ask me how I know.:(

Anyways.. Can someone tell me the science behind this whole 'looking through the turn'?

At the moment, the only reason I can think of that makes looking at the ground bad is because you're not aware what's in front of you (hazards?).

I read somewhere that you look through the turn, and when you look at where you want to go with proper speed/control, you will end up getting there.


Welcome Francis! "Looking where you want to go" is the KEY to making it through most any maneuver on our bikes, whether it is a low speed U-turn or a high speed corner. For some reason, your brain sends your body in the direction of your nose, so always keep your nose pointed where you want to end up. A thing called "target fixation" is when you look at the wrong thing (like looking down at the ground, at a curb, etc), you'll go there instead...trust me. This principle holds true for horseback riding, mountain bike riding, etc. Welcome to the forum, by the way. ;)

^^ Just like in skiiing. If you look at that hazard you want to avoid you find yourself getting closer and closer to it. If you look where you want to go you will avoid the hazard. Lead with your eyes and everything else will follow.

My MSF instructor yelled at me constantly about this. He said I should turn my head to point in the direction I want to go. I may turn my head slightly but I look with my eyes on where I want to go.

Shrug... I've never had a problem and don't see the point in turning my whole head to fixate on "where I want to go" when I should be also watching conditions around me. Just my 2 cents.

Hey, guys. The riding course isn't available at the moment, but would like some info since info's always good, right?

Anyways.. Can someone tell me the science behind this whole 'looking through the turn'?

At the moment, the only reason I can think of that makes looking at the ground bad is because you're not aware what's in front of you (hazards?).

I read somewhere that you look through the turn, and when you look at where you want to go with proper speed/control, you will end up getting there.

Thanks o.O

When you look where you want to go you gain information about what is coming so you are able to take that information and use it to decide what to do with the control inputs on the bike. If you look into a turn before you actually turn the bike then you can see the shape of the turn and you then know how hard and how much you need to press on the bar to get the bike to go there.

When you look through the turn it gives you information on what the turn is doing, is it tightening up or opening up, and once again it allows you to decide what to do, like roll on the gas. Looking through the turn not only helps you KNOW what to do with the controls but as you said it enables you to scan for hazards.

Also, by looking up and through the turn your perception of speed changes. If you look down at the ground or only a few feet in front of you then your sense of speed is different than if you look 20 or 30 feet in front of you.

How come some people seem to be able to look through the turn without even thinking about it while other people have to really train themselves to do so? What kinds of things will help you improve your visual skills?

Misti

I push the bars a bit more, give a tad bit of throttle to get stable and trust the bike will hold.

right on bro, saved my bacon last time i thought i owned this s turn. only thing to do, plus that trust and pray stuff. i usually pray after cleaning my shorts however.

Most of crashes (rider's fault) occurs in corner. Mostly hitting them too fast. So when you enter a corner a little too fast, what do you do?

Lean more?
Rear brake?
Engine brake?
Soft front brake?
Abandon bike and bail?
Pray?

This is Shane (Not Kit)


If you enter a corner hot, have good trajectory, and have room to adjust I recommend you trail.



Trail braking is not the easiest thing to learn but is something that anyone can try once you trust your basic skills and the bike you are riding. Some riders trail with the rear brake (Typically Offroad First Riders who are very familiar with rear braking in loose traction) but it is more common with road racers to use the front brake to trail.


Trailing the brakes lightly with even just the weight of your first two fingers on the brake lever will cause enough drag on the lever to create resistance in the brake system from the pads dragging on the rotors (Keep in mind the rotors are almost touching even when not being used).

This drag is enough to slow the bike and the result is a tighter turn. The decrease in the arch of your radius brings the bike back into a course you prefer and once you are back on course you can get maintain throttle and prepare to accelerate out of the corner.



If you have questions about the technique, check Keith Code's instructional videos.

Trailing the brakes lightly with even just the weight of your first two fingers on the brake lever will cause enough drag on the lever to create resistance in the brake system from the pads dragging on the rotors (Keep in mind the rotors are almost touching even when not being used).


I had no idea there was a name for that! I actually found myself doing that a few times, just seemed like the safest way to slow down without upsetting the angle of the bike :thumbup:

edit: I really need that book.

No body positioning is going to save you from these:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mNbnwt0VwX0/TdQTr1bSJqI/AAAAAAAAoao/mPuuAy4VqXw/s1600/img_5373.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TsZORZW8PRY/TdQUGkD-J8I/AAAAAAAAoaw/P7PjJ4MD33o/s1600/img_6022.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lIuc8axVtZE/TbkAsPBXCGI/AAAAAAAAnRU/bqV7HRPtrNE/s1600/img_2210.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-02ONSiXNjU0/Tc39zdnC43I/AAAAAAAAoME/iYk7A_prJQc/s1600/img_6624.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2991743070_432c3b2ddb_o.gif

NMOmoli3iso

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QPe5f8Ph71E/Tcwk01Ze8ZI/AAAAAAAAoCs/z13PvyJoTSU/s1600/img_8696.jpg

Complete dumbass in that last video, but at least it's somewhat instructional. See how he panicked, locked up the rear wheel, the bike slid straight where he didn't want to go, right off the road. Even though it looked like he was going so much faster than the video bike and the slow bike ahead, the dumbass still could have reeled things in easily with more front brake and just steering rather than locking up the rear and praying.

NMOmoli3iso

I really got to say that was the cleanest fail i have ever seen, like a cat that man is. :S

Slow in Fast out.

Im glad the slow bike didnt get rear ended in the mix of everything.

I spend the majority of my time on this road. Bottom line is that it is a great place to ride. However, I will not go on the weekend (unless its really early). I am not worried about my ability but you see this sh*t all of the time! There are lots of people riding well beyong their skill level. It is a bit comical riding behind some bagger watching them drag parts trying make some of these turns. It's not so funny when they are coming at you in your lane.

The skies parted breifly on Thursday after days of rain. You would think this place was Sturgis there was so many bikes.

actually watched the vid. They were going way too slow. No wonder they got passed. The guy came around a blind corner to find a bike practically stopped in the road. Thought he might slip on the inside while the guy went wide. Douche move passing on the inside and he paid for it.

I would have passed them.

BTW, dont forget the Ninja 250 gathering at Deal's Gap!

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73871&highlight=dragon&page=2

Who's the dumb ass now?

ME!

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd403/potterjandrew/ditch.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd403/potterjandrew/broken.jpg

Went down at the same spot? :confused:

Let me put it to you this way. Unless the pegs are scraping pavement, the bike has not reached it limit of turning performance.


If you hit the brakes and run wide, or dump it on purpose cause you chickened out...dont blame the bike or the road later.

If you hit it too hot, ride that sucker for all its worth.

Nope, not the same spot.

I was leaned over nicely and carving a line, everything felt great and I was sticking to the road no problem.

I dragged the kickstand safety switch on the pavement and upset the bike.

removed the peg feelers a while back. I scrape the foot pegs often and have hit the kickstand switch before but this time it was enough to pick up the rear tire. Luckily I was practically on the ground before I hit it.

This is my fear since going with the rear set plates. Glad your okay.

Thanks!
I'm gonna take it off and grind it down. I know someone here recommend it to me previously and I should have...
Posted via Mobile Device

Let me put it to you this way. Unless the pegs are scraping pavement, the bike has not reached it limit of turning performance.


If you hit the brakes and run wide, or dump it on purpose cause you chickened out...dont blame the bike or the road later.

If you hit it too hot, ride that sucker for all its worth.

Basically what my MSF instructor told my class. "If you are on a sportbike and you come into a turn too fast, just lean and keep looking through the turn, and you will probably make it."

My balls aren't big enough to put this to the test yet, but I have leaned the bike over pretty far past my comfort zone and come out of it just fine. My comfort zone keeps growing...

My balls aren't big enough to put this to the test yet,

My balls aren't big enough to decide crashing is the thing to do. I would rather ride out the turn than give up and go down!

Don't ever give up!

^ O I won't, just got back from a sweet ride south of town on some winding backroads. If anything, I feel like my skill at judging curves is improving.

My MSF instructor also told us about the number of people he hears saying "don't worry about counter-steering, just lean into the curve." Taking turns on a sportbike, I don't know how anyone could ever ride a motorcycle without counter-steering. I took my MSF on a provided cruiser, but counter-steering was one of the few skills that came to me naturally. The amount of control you retain when your bike feels like it could go over at any second is insane. I like it.

Ouch! You OK?

My hubby and I ride through Deal's Gap and the NC Smokies fairly often. We love it up there! Cornering is such an exciting yet controlled rush! It can be heart-pumping just as easily as it can be meditative.
Unfortunately, I've had the experience of dropping my bike in a corner at Deal's Gap. My form was great, my line was good, and all felt right...until an unexpected dip bottomed out my suspension and I was over. My egregious errors were: using 100% of my traction rather than leaving enough in reserve for "unexpecteds", as one should always do on public roads. The other costly mistake was not seeing the dip. I was already looking all the way up the hill and around the corner that the dip completely sneaked up on me.
Long story short, I got up and rode away after hubby and I got Lil' Ninj out of a ditch, so I was fine. My ego was bruised pretty badly. It was my very first auto accident ever.
Learned from it. Cornering is still the most fun thing to do on our 250s! :D

"Looking where you want to go" is the KEY to making it through most any maneuver on our bikes, whether it is a low speed U-turn or a high speed corner. For some reason, your brain sends your body in the direction of your nose, so always keep your nose pointed where you want to end up. A thing called "target fixation" is when you look at the wrong thing (like looking down at the ground, at a curb, etc), you'll go there instead...trust me. This principle holds true for horseback riding, mountain bike riding, etc. Welcome to the forum, by the way. ;)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Looking forward to seeing you out there ally. At least my slide was to the right. Didn't have worry about being run over or taking anyone else out (or going off the edge of the hill).
Posted via Mobile Device

After my lowside this morning I decided to go right out and buy me a new bike.





I have a feeling that with this ground clearance I will have no problem dragging parts.










I present: Biketard









http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd403/potterjandrew/newwheels.jpg


ugh, next picture will not be until I loose 20#'s

Does it come standard with a little bell? :)

Nope, but I picked out a cute one with flowers. brrrringggg, brrrringgggg!

you should buy some of those plastic things that fit on the spokes.

Do you have baseball cards in the spokes yet?

:rotflmao: I just got it. The mods are coming!

I don't get why everyone is preaching to roll on the throttle. I though the original premise is that the newb rider is going into a turn "too hot" from their perspective. I think we can all agree that the sentiment is that it's too hot for the rider's skill level, and not relative to the bike's performance envelope.

IMO The best answer is to use the throttle to modulate the speed, by rolling off ever so lsightly, while maintaining or increasing the lean angle. Most new riders (and some "veteran" riders) do not have a solid grasp on how much (how little) it takes to lock up a rear brake, so having them trail brake (and yes, I know that's not true trail braking) is probably not a good idea. In an Oh S**T moment, where you're going into a turn too hot, how is going *faster* going to make that situation any better? When I was a newb, I usually ended up standing the bike up to hit the brakes and running into the next lane, albeit briefly. Never once did accelerating seem like a better option than slowing down. I still feel the same way, except now, on the rare instance where I go in too hot, I have the experience to do more than just stand her up and hope for the best. And the choices still do not include more speed.

JMO, YMMV

I realized something while I was out this past weekend. Though I always roll on after entering the turn, I realized that modulating throttle in the turn determined my course just as much as leaning. If I got too close to the center line, a little throttle on pulls me back into the proper lane position and I feel I have MORE control.

Ironically, in a turn, I feel like I have more control with the throttle than I ever would with the brake. I think I have a small fear of using the rear-brake(too many high side videos watched), only using it to supplement a pull on the front brake for a short stop.

Ironically, in a turn, I feel like I have more control with the throttle than I ever would with the brake.That's because you do. Once the bike is leaned over, you are actually steering with the rear tire. It's funny, I have been re-reading my Keith Code books, and seeing the chapter that covers this after having real world experience to analyze it I see how true it is.

Just YouTube someone racing and when they come off the corner hard and wheelie, you can see the bike holding the lean angle that was previously dialed in.

You can certainly still use the bars/clip-ons to adjust your lean mid-corner, but one and done should be how you enter a corner, finishing it up with the throttle.

This video explains it all.... (don't let the name of the vid fool you)

joUdnwn3iEw

Pay attention to 1:44 (the science behind what is going on) & 3:35

And how it relates to this thread 4:30 (roll off, repoint, roll on) You WILL go wide during roll off, make sure you have enough room!

I am currently practicing these skills.

That's because you do. Once the bike is leaned over, you are actually steering with the rear tire. It's funny, I have been re-reading my Keith Code books, and seeing the chapter that covers this after having real world experience to analyze it I see how true it is.

Just YouTube someone racing and when they come off the corner hard and wheelie, you can see the bike holding the lean angle that was previously dialed in.

You can certainly still use the bars/clip-ons to adjust your lean mid-corner, but one and done should be how you enter a corner, finishing it up with the throttle.

True true. Good throttle control, meaning "rolling on the gas evenly, consistently and smoothly throughout the turn" not only provides a stable bike but also ensures CONSISTENT LINES. Once you set the lean angle of your bike (provided you have good throttle control) your bike will continue on that same line until you steer out of it. Rolling OFF the gas mid corner will cause you to run WIDER, hence the reason we suggest maintaining good throttle control even when you feel like you are going too fast in a corner. If you roll off the throttle you risk running WIDER, you also transfer weight back onto the front tire (which is only designed to handle 30-40% of the cornering load).

While it is important to know what to do in a situation where you have made a mistake (ie. entering into a turn too hot) it is also important to learn how to avoid making that same mistake again.

So how do you learn to set your entry speeds correctly for a corner? How do you do this on a corner you have never seen?

Misti

True true. Good throttle control, meaning "rolling on the gas evenly, consistently and smoothly throughout the turn" not only provides a stable bike but also ensures CONSISTENT LINES. Once you set the lean angle of your bike (provided you have good throttle control) your bike will continue on that same line until you steer out of it. Rolling OFF the gas mid corner will cause you to run WIDER, hence the reason we suggest maintaining good throttle control even when you feel like you are going too fast in a corner. If you roll off the throttle you risk running WIDER, you also transfer weight back onto the front tire (which is only designed to handle 30-40% of the cornering load).

Misti

Misti, something is terribly wrong here. Cutting the throttle by itself can't make you go wide.
Take a tire, and roll it. It will go straight, while it has enough speed to keep it straight, and as it has no power of its own, it will slow down gradually and lean to one side. As it looses more speed, lean will increase, and radius of the turns it is traveling will decrease. So it will converge to the center point in a short spiral. Eventually it will loose enough speed to lean more and eventually drop to the ground to the most stable position.

I think that same will happen to the motorcycle, if you cut the power while leaned over. Radius of the curve you are traveling at will decrease, if you don't move the bars.
The problem is that this will happen too slow. Bike will not loose enough speed in time to make the turn, so you will go wide.
The point is, you don't go wide because you released the throttle, you go wide because you didn't push the inside bar enough.
These 2 normally come together when a survival reaction kicks in.

This is consistent with the fact that the mass distribution alone is not enough to effectively steer a motorcycle, as it is shown in Keith Code's book and film. (the bike does change direction, but not fast enough)
It is also consistent with the fact that you release the throttle while turning the bike, and apply it only after the bike is turned.

I agree completely with the rest of the text.

Misti, something is terribly wrong here. Cutting the throttle by itself can't make you go wide.
Take a tire, and roll it. It will go straight, while it has enough speed to keep it straight, and as it has no power of its own, it will slow down gradually and lean to one side. As it looses more speed, lean will increase, and radius of the turns it is traveling will decrease. So it will converge to the center point in a short spiral. Eventually it will loose enough speed to lean more and eventually drop to the ground to the most stable position.

It is also consistent with the fact that you release the throttle while turning the bike, and apply it only after the bike is turned.


Actually, yes, cutting the throttle WILL make you run wide. Your illustration of the behavior of a rolling tire is correct, but you forget that when the tires are part of your bike, there are different physics and dynamics to consider. Imagine your illustration above, but you have 2 wheels connected to ends of a pole. Do you think both would still work together to decrease the radius of your turn? In addition, as soon as you cut the throttle, your bike is engine braking. Braking runs you wide. You want nothing to do with any kind of braking once in a corner unless you are a pro and understand trail-braking.

I'm also not sure I understand the 2nd quote from you (above). You should NOT release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn. Releasing the throttle engine brakes which sends more weight to the front of your bike which can upset the suspension. Under braking (engine braking included) and with a trailing throttle the weight of the bike tends towards the front and loads the front tire so that it’s more likely to lose traction in a corner. The tire has to work harder and the suspension becomes compressed and can’t deal with bumps well.

Just some thoughts to consider.

:whatshesaid:

Actually, yes, cutting the throttle WILL make you run wide. Your illustration of the behavior of a rolling tire is correct, but you forget that when the tires are part of your bike, there are different physics and dynamics to consider. Imagine your illustration above, but you have 2 wheels connected to ends of a pole. Do you think both would still work together to decrease the radius of your turn? In addition, as soon as you cut the throttle, your bike is engine braking. Braking runs you wide. You want nothing to do with any kind of braking once in a corner unless you are a pro and understand trail-braking.

I'm also not sure I understand the 2nd quote from you (above). You should NOT release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn. Releasing the throttle engine brakes which sends more weight to the front of your bike which can upset the suspension. Under braking (engine braking included) and with a trailing throttle the weight of the bike tends towards the front and loads the front tire so that it’s more likely to lose traction in a corner. The tire has to work harder and the suspension becomes compressed and can’t deal with bumps well.

Just some thoughts to consider.

I completely support the claimed effects on the suspension and front-rear tire pressure to the ground.
By turning the bike, I meant initiating a turn, leaning the bike from perpendicular to whatever angle. Once leaned (the bike is traveling along the arc you want it to), you apply the throttle easily.

Let us test the theories, by traveling slow enough, without danger of loosing grip because of bad front-rear mass distribution.

Actually, yes, cutting the throttle WILL make you run wide. Your illustration of the behavior of a rolling tire is correct, but you forget that when the tires are part of your bike, there are different physics and dynamics to consider. Imagine your illustration above, but you have 2 wheels connected to ends of a pole. Do you think both would still work together to decrease the radius of your turn? In addition, as soon as you cut the throttle, your bike is engine braking. Braking runs you wide. You want nothing to do with any kind of braking once in a corner unless you are a pro and understand trail-braking.

I'm also not sure I understand the 2nd quote from you (above). You should NOT release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn. Releasing the throttle engine brakes which sends more weight to the front of your bike which can upset the suspension. Under braking (engine braking included) and with a trailing throttle the weight of the bike tends towards the front and loads the front tire so that it’s more likely to lose traction in a corner. The tire has to work harder and the suspension becomes compressed and can’t deal with bumps well.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Good explanation and yes you are right when you say that chopping the throttle WILL make the bike run wide. Keith Code calls this a survival reaction. When we go into a turn and fear that we are going to fast or fear that we are running wide we instinctively want to chop the throttle which actually makes the situation worse. Rolling off or chopping the throttle tends to make the bike run wider and I appreciate your exact definition of why that is so.

As for the second part of your post, I just want to clarify one thing that seems a little confusing and it may just be semantics. You say that you should "Not release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn."

This all sounds correct but I just want to clarify that the throttle should be OFF when actually turning the bike and then cracked on ASAP once the bike is at the lean angle you desire. Then it should be rolled on evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn as you describe. You want to make sure that your turning/steering is DONE before you crack on the gas, so essentially when you turn the throttle is off. You get all your braking, downshifting etc done before turn in, turn the bike and THEN get on the gas.

This is one of the reason's that your rate of turning (how quickly you get your bike to the lean angle you desire) is so important because the sooner you get your turning DONE the faster you can roll on the gas.

Cheers,
Misti

Misti, great information. Though I would point out that some bikes are incapable of having the throttle off as you enter the turn. My wife's TU is one of them. When riding the bike hard, which is amazingly entertaining, going off the throttle before a turn would kill what little speed is built up.

I am not being contrary. I fully support your statement, and ride like that myself. I am just pointing out on the really small bikes with lackluster power, well there is no power to roll on. If you let off the throttle you slow yourself before you hit mid-corner.

Looking forward to seeing you out there ally.
Posted via Mobile Device

We're heading up there next weekend spending one night at the Iron Horse and playing around on the Dragon and the Cherohala, and then taking the BRP up to Ashville. :)

Ack! The one weekend I'll be out of town :/
Great itinerary though. The BRP out of the park is a nice stretch. I just walked in from an early AM ride at the gap. (Nice and empty)
Have a great time.
Posted via Mobile Device

I just walked in from an early AM ride at the gap. (Nice and empty)I would imagine that is the best time to go. I used to be interested in taking a trip up there but I have a friend who has been a couple of times and he said it was fun, but do to the cops and the traffic (mostly the squid riders) that it wasn't as good as some make it out to be. He told me that our regular haunting grounds are every bit as good in terms of fun and challenge.

The only problem with the roads we ride is the condition of some of them. In addition, there seems to be gravel all over the place sometimes. I think it must be from four-wheelers as we live in a somewhat rural area.

And I get them confused: BRP or Cherohala, which is the Skyway? And do you know which one was on Top Gear? Beautiful area, but 400 miles at 35-45 mph? No thanks.

I don't know where you are but there is a reason why people come from all over to run the gap. I agree with much of what you are saying. I do not go when it is busy. It is hardly worth my time. It is also dangerous. I have seen really bad riding and driving there. I have also seen some really skilled riders as well. The motard guys are craziest! That's a sweeping generalization but damn, they go fast. Both the Cherohala and Blue Ridge Pkwy are 45mph but still they are twisty and beautiful. There are amazing places to ride here in E TN and W NC
Posted via Mobile Device

And I get them confused: BRP or Cherohala, which is the Skyway? And do you know which one was on Top Gear? Beautiful area, but 400 miles at 35-45 mph? No thanks.

Cherohala is the skyway...and worth every mile you have to drive to get there! The Cherohala is not patrolled much at all and traffic has always been low when I've been, and its speed limit isn't set as artificially low as that at the Dragon. Neither is the BRP (Blue Ridge Pkwy). There are only occasional rangers on the BRP who can ticket, no "real" cops. I've been several times and seen one ranger in all my trips. The Dragon is where the cops hang out, but the cool thing is there are nearly always 2 stationed there (not more), and once you've taken the road a time or two, you know where they are. Granted, sometimes they do relocate, but many, MANY other bikers will alert you they are ahead by tapping their helmet. It's worth the risk. Anyone who loves the twisties should at least make the trip once IMHO. :)

He told me that our regular haunting grounds are every bit as good in terms of fun and challenge.


Wow, so your stomping grounds have 318 different types of mountain twisties in an 11-mile stretch??? :rolleyes:

So how do you learn to set your entry speeds correctly for a corner? How do you do this on a corner you have never seen?
Misti


This is an awesome question and one I still struggle with at times too. I usually have a slower entry speed than ideal for a few reasons. #1 I'm on the street and want to keep enough traction in reserve to alter my line or stand her up and brake if there's a hazard ahead. #2 Admittedly, I don't really know how to set a perfect entry speed for a corner I've never seen, particularly a blind one when it's impossible to see very far ahead of you. So I'd love to hear other people's responses to Misti's question!
I would never try to keep up with my hubby on his bike in the mountains...ok, well, I did try once and Lil Ninj and I suffered for it. :o He's a natural and is a better rider than I could ever hope to be, however, I've never understood how he can set such perfect entry speeds in unfamiliar corners and always come out unscathed (knocking on wood several times here). We usually ride twisty roads more than once, so I do tend to get more comfortable and able to take corners a bit faster after the first time through, though I'm still cautious of animals and folks who might be on the road ahead of me.
I'd love to hear everyone's ideas! How DO you learn to set your entry speeds just right for corners you've never seen?

On a slightly separate cornering topic, there are so many different lines from which to choose when going through a corner. I know Lee Parks recommends choosing a delayed apex line. I'd love to open up some discussion regarding this type of line choice. The logic is (correct me if I'm wrong because I'm always a work in progress!) that by delaying the apex, you ride the outside of the turn a bit longer (ie: delay the turn in), and when you do your turn in, you do more of a quick flick to the inside of the corner (getting the lean over with quickly) rather than spending a longer time leaned over and riding the outside line of the corner. Delaying the apex results in getting the brunt of your lean done in a quicker amount of time so that traction is maximized for a longer amount of time. Is this correct? What are the pros and cons of using this type of line when riding corners?

Edit: Sorry, just realized I posted the last 4 posts in this thread. :o

You are correct.

Late Apex (from experiences in autoxing and karting. The bike is still a work in progress :) )

Pros:
- Allows to carry your speed deeper into the corner (passing/overtaking)
- Get on the throttle sooner (with maximum tire contact patch)
- better field of view
- Safer in street/canyon riding/driving
- old addage is always true "slow in fast out"
- minimizes the time spent into the corner (as you mentioned) which reduces your vulnerabilities from outside factors

Cons:
- Not the fastest line (aside from normal apex), but the most practical for the street and canyon riding where there are a lot more variables that come into play.
- If racing, the normal apex line (most cases) allows for better setup for the next corner. The late apex will cause you to be inside of the line and will have to make up the position by outbraking again (and possibly go wide). (Sorry I watch too many MotoGP and F1 races)

Wow, so your stomping grounds have 318 different types of mountain twisties in an 11-mile stretch??? :rolleyes:First of all, did I specifically type that? No.

Second, I mentioned that a friend who has been to the Dragon on several occasions made that comment to me. I wasn't making the statement.

Third, based on videos of the Dragon, yes I do believe the roads I have available to ride around here are every bit as fun and challenging as what I have seen in the videos. I also believe my friend, who has six years riding experience in several different states across the county. So when he tells me he prefers some of the roads we have around here to the logistics of riding the Dragon, or prefers a shorter trip into Helen to ride the north Georgia mountains, I am not going to argue.

Do we have 318 turns in 11 miles on a single road? Not quite, but yes I have access to extremely serpentine roads. I would say the biggest issue with our local roads is the quality of some, whereas the Dragon seems to have new pavement in every video I see, regardless of age. I guess all those speeding tickets add up. :rolleyes:

Not to hijack this great thread but you have a "local friend" if ever you do visit the area. If you want to just armchair the Dragon tune into Killboy's weekly blog. It highlights the crazy, stupid, weird and wonderful!

http://killboy.blogspot.com/

Drew, that Porsche sounded so sexy!

Drew, that Porsche sounded so sexy!

Yes indeed! I was not able to make the hillclimb event but it looked like a good time :eek:

ooooh,ooooh,,,pick me...I know the answer about the hi slides.
Push down with your right foot on the pedal

how did this answer get on this thread ?
sorry guys

First of all, did I specifically type that? No.

Second, I mentioned that a friend who has been to the Dragon on several occasions made that comment to me. I wasn't making the statement.

Third, based on videos of the Dragon, yes I do believe the roads I have available to ride around here are every bit as fun and challenging as what I have seen in the videos. I also believe my friend, who has six years riding experience in several different states across the county. So when he tells me he prefers some of the roads we have around here to the logistics of riding the Dragon, or prefers a shorter trip into Helen to ride the north Georgia mountains, I am not going to argue.

Do we have 318 turns in 11 miles on a single road? Not quite, but yes I have access to extremely serpentine roads. I would say the biggest issue with our local roads is the quality of some, whereas the Dragon seems to have new pavement in every video I see, regardless of age. I guess all those speeding tickets add up. :rolleyes:

Dude, relax. It's all cool. :rolleyes:

Not to hijack this great thread but you have a "local friend" if ever you do visit the area. If you want to just armchair the Dragon tune into Killboy's weekly blog. It highlights the crazy, stupid, weird and wonderful!

http://killboy.blogspot.com/Thanks for the "invite". I'll be honest though, I have no real desire to visit the Dragon after all of the idiocy I have seen from pictures and videos. I know it isn't the same as being there first hand, but my luck is such that I'll go and it will be horrible weather or extra patrols or suicide-sportbikers or riding-too-fast-cruisers on the day I'm there. The roads I have here in northwest Georgia do just fine, and I have to worry about far fewer bikes or cars crossing center-line on a blind corner.

You guys feel free to enjoy it though. I prefer not to push it on the street and I don't like speeding tickets. I'd prefer not to be another statistic on the Dragon, especially if it is caused by someone else.

You guys feel free to enjoy it though. I prefer not to push it on the street and I don't like speeding tickets. I'd prefer not to be another statistic on the Dragon, especially if it is caused by someone else.

To each his own! We all love riding for different reasons. Ride safe! :thumbup:

To each his own! We all love riding for different reasons. Ride safe! :thumbup:Back at ya'. :thumbup:

This is an awesome question and one I still struggle with at times too. I usually have a slower entry speed than ideal for a few reasons. #1 I'm on the street and want to keep enough traction in reserve to alter my line or stand her up and brake if there's a hazard ahead. #2 Admittedly, I don't really know how to set a perfect entry speed for a corner I've never seen, particularly a blind one when it's impossible to see very far ahead of you. So I'd love to hear other people's responses to Misti's question!
I would never try to keep up with my hubby on his bike in the mountains...ok, well, I did try once and Lil Ninj and I suffered for it. :o He's a natural and is a better rider than I could ever hope to be, however, I've never understood how he can set such perfect entry speeds in unfamiliar corners and always come out unscathed (knocking on wood several times here). We usually ride twisty roads more than once, so I do tend to get more comfortable and able to take corners a bit faster after the first time through, though I'm still cautious of animals and folks who might be on the road ahead of me.
I'd love to hear everyone's ideas! How DO you learn to set your entry speeds just right for corners you've never seen?

I respect your reasons for taking it easy on public roads and especially ones you have never seen before and in discussing how to increase your entry speed I'm in no way suggesting that you should go out and push your comfort level, especially on the street. You do bring up a good question about how to set your entry speed just right, and how to do it on corners that you have never seen before.

It basically comes down to visual skills. Riders that are able to pick their lines and maintain a decent entry speed into a corner simply have better visual skills than those that are over slowing or braking too much. Our visual skills dictate our "perception of speed." If we don't feel like we are going in to a corner too fast then we maintain our confidence to carry that speed through the turn. So, how do you learn to improve your visual skills so that you aren't over slowing for a turn?

Think about a corner that you know you over slow for, what tends to happen to your vision as you approach that corner? Does it narrow down? How does a narrowed down field of vision effect your sense of speed?

Misti

On a slightly separate cornering topic, there are so many different lines from which to choose when going through a corner. I know Lee Parks recommends choosing a delayed apex line. I'd love to open up some discussion regarding this type of line choice. The logic is (correct me if I'm wrong because I'm always a work in progress!) that by delaying the apex, you ride the outside of the turn a bit longer (ie: delay the turn in), and when you do your turn in, you do more of a quick flick to the inside of the corner (getting the lean over with quickly) rather than spending a longer time leaned over and riding the outside line of the corner. Delaying the apex results in getting the brunt of your lean done in a quicker amount of time so that traction is maximized for a longer amount of time. Is this correct? What are the pros and cons of using this type of line when riding corners?

Edit: Sorry, just realized I posted the last 4 posts in this thread. :o

Yes, this is correct. There is also another benefit of this that you didn't mention and that is that by delaying turn in you give yourself extra time to be able to look into the turn to SEE what it does. Ever go into a corner only to find out that it tightens up unexpectedly. If you had delayed your turn in you would have had that little bit of extra time to be able to see into the turn farther and noticed that it was going to tighten up, or at least looked for more visual clues that would tell you what the corner was going to do.

This brings up another good riding technique that goes really well with a delayed apex type of line (and it also ties in to your earlier question about faster entry speeds) and that is something that we call the 2-step at the California Superbike School.

Basically what a lot of riders do is they LOOK (into the turn) and TURN their bikes at the same time. When you do this you have very very little information about the corner that you have just turned into. We like to see our students LOOK into the turn first....wait..... and then turn their bike. Not only does this give you much more visual information about the corner but it also changes your perception of speed because you are visually one step ahead of your bike.

Thoughts on this?

Misti

You are correct.

Late Apex (from experiences in autoxing and karting. The bike is still a work in progress :) )

Pros:
- Allows to carry your speed deeper into the corner (passing/overtaking)
- Get on the throttle sooner (with maximum tire contact patch)
- better field of view
- Safer in street/canyon riding/driving
- old addage is always true "slow in fast out"
- minimizes the time spent into the corner (as you mentioned) which reduces your vulnerabilities from outside factors

Cons:
- Not the fastest line (aside from normal apex), but the most practical for the street and canyon riding where there are a lot more variables that come into play.
- If racing, the normal apex line (most cases) allows for better setup for the next corner. The late apex will cause you to be inside of the line and will have to make up the position by outbraking again (and possibly go wide). (Sorry I watch too many MotoGP and F1 races)

Good points here as well.

Cheers,
Misti

This might have been covered before, but what about shifting up during a corner? I find myself revving the bike pretty high sometimes in a corner when rolling on, it'd be nice to go up a gear, but I was taught in MSF not to do anything that will reduce speed or power during a turn. How does that work?

Think about a corner that you know you over slow for, what tends to happen to your vision as you approach that corner? Does it narrow down? How does a narrowed down field of vision effect your sense of speed?

Misti

Hey Misti. Thanks so much for your replies. I wish I lived in or near California. I'd love to attend the Superbike School for you to coach me! :) You inspire me. :D Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm narrowing my field of vision as I approach and keeping it narrow too long. I just watched Twist of the Wrist again as a refresher before this coming weekend's mountain trip, and Keith Code mentioned as you approach a corner, zeroing in on your turn in point briefly (narrow vision) but immediately widening your view again to look through the corner (wide vision).
The video also touched on the 2-step that you mentioned. Look through the curve, wait, and then flick it with a determined push of the bars rather than a lazy, slow push.
Those are the things I plan to work on this weekend in the Smoky Mountains. :) Of course, I'll ride like I'm on the street, not on a track, but I love having goals and things to work on each time we head up north! Thanks so much for your words of wisdom :thumbup:!

put your foot down like they do on motards

I did this on a snow mobile once, about 8 years ago, my hip still hurts sometimes. :eek:

This might have been covered before, but what about shifting up during a corner? I find myself revving the bike pretty high sometimes in a corner when rolling on, it'd be nice to go up a gear, but I was taught in MSF not to do anything that will reduce speed or power during a turn. How does that work?

Unless your bouncing the redline don't worry about it, the power is at the top end of the rpms anyway. If you are hitting the rev limiter post apex, you may be ready to take the curve a little faster and at a higher gear on entry.

Misti or a more experienced rider may provide more advanced advice, but I don't up shift until I have the bike mostly upright coming out of the corner.

In fact... if you can actively PULL the bike up, you can crack harder on the throttle earlier and gives you something to do in the later part of the curve instead of letting the other acting forces push the bike upright. If you want to improve a lap time don't be lazy in the last part of the corner. If all you did was roll on and flow through the corner, you missed your chance at the end to gain a bit more speed on exit.

Yes I did say PULL. For example; your counter-steering into a left corner.

1. look for entry point
2. look for apex
3. find line
4. adjust entry speed and gear
5. look through curve to keep your line
6. with your peripheral vision find your marker to begin the corner (make sure its not early), drop and fall in
7. begin roll and continue line

[Begin more advance technique]
8. post apex and near end of corner, the bike will have already begun to come upright, this is when you can influence the bike to get it upright faster by pulling with your left hand. The bonus is you get on the throttle harder and faster. You can roll the throttle at the same time as you pull, but keep control. We don't want to do wheelies on the 250 now..... :thumbup:
[End more advance technique]

If you want to up shift in the corner, the time is way post apex....., after the bike is mostly upright and your line is secured.

Dont shift at redline in a corner (Well from 1st gear to 2nd at least) The front end of the bike will come up, little sketchy

Today during my ride I decided to focus on practicing throttle control in a variety of situations including cornering. I'm aware of and practice the early throttle roll-on, but I realized I don't have a good idea as to exactly how much throttle should be used.

Since I'm pretty nerdy, my first thought was to do a quick calculation: I remember Keith Code stating in Twist of the Wrist that the acceleration to get the correct forward/backward weight distribution is something like 0.1 - 0.2g for modern sportbikes. I figured since our ninjettes have narrower rear tires than your average racing replica, we should probably be at the low end of that scale (ie, slightly skewing weight to the front since our rear contact patch is relatively smaller). 0.1g turns out to be just a bit more than 2 miles per hour per second -- in other words, every second, your speed should increase by 2-5 MPH.

2mph / sec is actually quite a bit smaller than I thought! Is there a good way to know that you've hit the proper amount of throttle while street riding? Although I don't have any track time, it seems like close to the edge of traction the tires would provide feedback (ie, the rear starting to slide means you should probably not throttle so hard next lap). On the street, however, I'm not exactly willing to push that hard :P. Any suggestions for finding the sweet spot?

You can, and I have upshifted mid corner. Make sure its the 2-3 or 3-4 or 4-5 shift. Do it quickly and clutchlessly.<-- if thats a word
The more upright the bike the better, although I have shifted at apex before. (I would rather wait to shift on exit when the bike is more upright, but it can be done at apex.)
BE SMOOTH and try not to upset the bike too much.

Today during my ride I decided to focus on practicing throttle control in a variety of situations including cornering. I'm aware of and practice the early throttle roll-on, but I realized I don't have a good idea as to exactly how much throttle should be used.

Since I'm pretty nerdy, my first thought was to do a quick calculation: I remember Keith Code stating in Twist of the Wrist that the acceleration to get the correct forward/backward weight distribution is something like 0.1 - 0.2g for modern sportbikes. I figured since our ninjettes have narrower rear tires than your average racing replica, we should probably be at the low end of that scale (ie, slightly skewing weight to the front since our rear contact patch is relatively smaller). 0.1g turns out to be just a bit more than 2 miles per hour per second -- in other words, every second, your speed should increase by 2-5 MPH.

2mph / sec is actually quite a bit smaller than I thought! Is there a good way to know that you've hit the proper amount of throttle while street riding? Although I don't have any track time, it seems like close to the edge of traction the tires would provide feedback (ie, the rear starting to slide means you should probably not throttle so hard next lap). On the street, however, I'm not exactly willing to push that hard :P. Any suggestions for finding the sweet spot?

You can whack the throttle wide open on a 250 if you please. Rear traction isnt the problem. A roll on is much more preferd of course. In my experience is you will lose the front first anyway.

I just clench my buttcheeks and hope i didnt ruin a pair of good underwear. :p

I love that response!! LMAO :rotflmao: I thought that was my trick?!?! hehehehe With the roads here in Las Vegas one hopes the tires stick!

yeah nothing quite guages your entry speed quite like the brown-pants factor.
:D

on a more related note, guys this advice is awesome. I'm going to try the delayed apex and two-step turn in next time I ride. I think about it now and when I look, I immediately start to lazily lean the bike. I need to separate those. keep the tips coming.

I agree. This is my favorite current thread. :lol:

Hey Misti. Thanks so much for your replies. I wish I lived in or near California. I'd love to attend the Superbike School for you to coach me! :) You inspire me. :D Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm narrowing my field of vision as I approach and keeping it narrow too long. I just watched Twist of the Wrist again as a refresher before this coming weekend's mountain trip, and Keith Code mentioned as you approach a corner, zeroing in on your turn in point briefly (narrow vision) but immediately widening your view again to look through the corner (wide vision).
The video also touched on the 2-step that you mentioned. Look through the curve, wait, and then flick it with a determined push of the bars rather than a lazy, slow push.
Those are the things I plan to work on this weekend in the Smoky Mountains. :) Of course, I'll ride like I'm on the street, not on a track, but I love having goals and things to work on each time we head up north! Thanks so much for your words of wisdom :thumbup:!

Great! Glad to have been of some help and let me know how it goes when you work on your wide view and two step in those corners. Those two techniques are ones that I constantly have to work on in my riding and racing and are the ones that I struggle with the most. They are also the ones that will help a lot with corner entry speed and helping you become more confident going into corners. Keep up the good work!

PS. Superbike School coaches all over the USA, check out the website for track locations. I actually live in Vancouver, Canada and travel to all the tracks the school coaches at (when I'm not so busy raising a family and sitting on the sidelines being preggers :)

Unless your bouncing the redline don't worry about it, the power is at the top end of the rpms anyway. If you are hitting the rev limiter post apex, you may be ready to take the curve a little faster and at a higher gear on entry.

Misti or a more experienced rider may provide more advanced advice, but I don't up shift until I have the bike mostly upright coming out of the corner.

In fact... if you can actively PULL the bike up, you can crack harder on the throttle earlier and gives you something to do in the later part of the curve instead of letting the other acting forces push the bike upright. If you want to improve a lap time don't be lazy in the last part of the corner. If all you did was roll on and flow through the corner, you missed your chance at the end to gain a bit more speed on exit.

Yes I did say PULL. For example; your counter-steering into a left corner.

1. look for entry point
2. look for apex
3. find line
4. adjust entry speed and gear
5. look through curve to keep your line
6. with your peripheral vision find your marker to begin the corner (make sure its not early), drop and fall in
7. begin roll and continue line

[Begin more advance technique]
8. post apex and near end of corner, the bike will have already begun to come upright, this is when you can influence the bike to get it upright faster by pulling with your left hand. The bonus is you get on the throttle harder and faster. You can roll the throttle at the same time as you pull, but keep control. We don't want to do wheelies on the 250 now..... :thumbup:
[End more advance technique]

If you want to up shift in the corner, the time is way post apex....., after the bike is mostly upright and your line is secured.

Couple things here. For the most part, yes I save my upshifts for when I am more upright and exiting the corner as opposed to shifting mid turn. Maybe you are downshifting to too low of a gear before the corner? I'd experiment a little with what gears you are taking the corner in and seeing if you can find a middle ground so that you aren't shifting mid turn which can destabilize the bike a bit.

Also, I agree with your comments here about how getting the bike upright at the exit of the turn quickly will help you roll on the gas harder and exit a little quicker. We coach "picking the bike up" a little differently though in that instead of pulling on the inside bar to get the bike to stand up we suggest PUSHING on the outside bar. So in a left hand turn you would countersteer into the turn by pressing on the left bar and then countersteer OUT of the turn by pressing on the RIGHT bar.

The bike won't begin to stand up at the exit of the corner by itself without any input into the bars. If you have good throttle control the bike will maintain its line until you countersteer out. Most riders do this unconsciously but when you start to focus on countersteering OUT of the corners to get the bike upright on exit you are able to roll on the gas harder and exit quicker.

Misti

Is there a good way to know that you've hit the proper amount of throttle while street riding? Although I don't have any track time, it seems like close to the edge of traction the tires would provide feedback (ie, the rear starting to slide means you should probably not throttle so hard next lap). On the street, however, I'm not exactly willing to push that hard :P. Any suggestions for finding the sweet spot?

The goal of good throttle control is to STABILIZE the bike, so provided that you are rolling on the gas enough to get the bike stable through the corners, that is enough. From there you can adjust the amount of throttle you give to get the desired riding result. If you want to ride faster and harder then you would work on giving it more gas throughout the entire corner but with the same basic principles of good TC. If you are racing you would work on getting the max roll on and the best corner speed overall. Depends on the riding situation.

Generally speaking though, if you have good TC then your bike will feel stable and will maintain a constant and predictable line.

Misti

Also, I agree with your comments here about how getting the bike upright at the exit of the turn quickly will help you roll on the gas harder and exit a little quicker. We coach "picking the bike up" a little differently though in that instead of pulling on the inside bar to get the bike to stand up we suggest PUSHING on the outside bar. So in a left hand turn you would countersteer into the turn by pressing on the left bar and then countersteer OUT of the turn by pressing on the RIGHT bar.

The bike won't begin to stand up at the exit of the corner by itself without any input into the bars. If you have good throttle control the bike will maintain its line until you countersteer out. Most riders do this unconsciously but when you start to focus on countersteering OUT of the corners to get the bike upright on exit you are able to roll on the gas harder and exit quicker.

Misti



The PULL vs PUSH is about efficiency and slide control and I also took for granted that everyone knows that you have give input to come out of the turn and lean. my bad there, but after all this is a pretty advanced discussion.

Misty, have a quick look at this and tell me what you think.

5cbQoW3rk2o

We coach "picking the bike up" a little differently though in that instead of pulling on the inside bar to get the bike to stand up we suggest PUSHING on the outside bar.

Another thought on standing the bike up when exiting a corner: I learned in a track day class that when picking the bike up out of a corner you can hang off a little more as you add throttle, in effect making the bike slightly more upright increasing on throttle traction.

Jeff

Ok stupid question... What is apex?
Posted via Mobile Device

The point during a corner in which you are closest to the inside.

Basically compare it to the top of a hill. It's the "top", of the corner, or the point where the curve starts to open up again. "The apex is the point at which, looking ahead, you can first see a clear path to the exit."

http://www.ottawamotorcycle.ca/terms33.shtml

What can I do to work on feeling better when taking left turns??

I seem to have a mental block w left turns, maybe it partially from my high side going left, but I noticed it before that too.
However, now on my new bike, I've got about 900 miles and noticed the feelers on my left side of tire still there, while the right side are gone, minus 1 or 2 real close to the chicken strip.
I know this means I'm leaning more in right turns than left, but I do not know how to fix it... any advice??

The PULL vs PUSH is about efficiency and slide control and I also took for granted that everyone knows that you have give input to come out of the turn and lean. my bad there, but after all this is a pretty advanced discussion.

Misty, have a quick look at this and tell me what you think.

5cbQoW3rk2o

Good point. You mention that pull vs push is about efficiency and also about what is more comfortable and intuitive to the person doing it. Some find it very confusing to pull the inside bar over pressing on the outside so pushing makes more sense for them.

I should have been more clear when I said that at CSS we coach "press" rather than pull" What should have said is that what I usually do as a coach is begin by teaching the press as I find it makes more sense for more riders. I'll say after that they can choose to either press or pull but I do start the discussion by suggesting a press.

In Keith's technical briefings at the school he says you can either press on the outside bar or pull on the inside bar while it appears that Andy Ibbot prefers to coach "pulling on the inside bar". Either way will work it just depends what the rider finds more comfortable, intuitive and effective.

Hope that made sense :)

Misti

I find it more comfortable to push so that's what I do, unless I only have one hand on the bar, then I might have to pull :p

Yea, I was pushing when I first started more aggressive cornering. After my body position got better, I found my arms much more stretched on the outside. Tried pulling instead and haven't looked back since. Not to mention I use my tank bag while riding more often. So I can rest my arm on the tank & bag. A bonus to that is, I know I am loose if I can rest my arm.

I wish they would put the level 1 and 2 classes on dvd. I am sure there would be a great seller. Maybe in a few years I will have saved enough to come out there for a week or two to go through those classes.

Always glad to have your input Misti, there is alot of gray and even more bad advice area when it comes to subjects like this.

I have tried both and I find myself doing whatever feels most comfortable. Which is usually whatever takes less effort.

http://superbikeschool.com/team/

There is the guy from the videos and Misti too!

Andy Ibbott
UK School Director (Class IV Coach)

Misti Hurst
Riding Coach (Class III)

Here is the next question for cornering. After your skill increases, how do you know when its time to adjust your rear preload. Mine is starting to feel soft around the apex, is that the clue? Feels great, pre and post apex. I know you want to keep em in the midrange, but I can't really see it while riding.

Am I the only one who has no idea what I'm doing when cornering? I just countersteer, aim, lean off, throttle off then on when I apex and put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner.

Could it be that simple?

Nice! Sometimes we do overthink things (trust me, type-A here), but some of us learn by doing so. :) I agree though, I think you just gave great cornering advice because the key is to RELAX! Your post helped us to remember that. :thumbup:

put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner.

This is the part where the type-A'ers have a problem.

I have no faith, nor do I want any. Does "Faith" assumes the bike is in control? I as the rider, want to be in 100% control 100% of the time. The only way to reach that goal is to understand what is going on to the rider and bike.

Even K. Code says "Don't trust your tires, trust yourself." And I agree, the bike will never say its sorry....

Am I the only one who has no idea what I'm doing when cornering? I just countersteer, aim, lean off, throttle off then on when I apex and put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner.

Could it be that simple?

I think most of us ride with some measure of intuition and don't really break things down into specifics. We just "ride." When I first started racing I had no clue of what I was doing but I happened to be quite fast and to do alright. It wasn't until I took the Superbike School as a student that I realized how much better I could ride once I did break things down a little bit and understand technique and skills a little more.

I was able to really get more out of my riding. At first it felt weird because it was a little mechanical and choppy as I tried to put all the pieces of learning together but gradually it became smooth and comfortable and went back to feeling more intuitive.

I guess what I'm saying is that it can be that simple but I also think it can be better (and still simple) when you take the time to investigate your riding and improve all the different aspects.

For example, you say that when you corner you, "I just countersteer, aim, lean off, throttle off then on when I apex and put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner."

As a riding coach I might suggest that you "hang off, then throttle off, then AIM, then Countersteer, then throttle ON, apex and then trust that you will make it through the corner :) How do you think that would make your cornering experience different???

Misti

I've been starting to more consciously think about my line when riding (on the street) and typically have been shooting for a delayed apex. Any tips on how to avoid entering too late, even for the delayed apex? I sometimes feel like I miss the right stop and start going wide before I turn in.

I've been starting to more consciously think about my line when riding (on the street) and typically have been shooting for a delayed apex. Any tips on how to avoid entering too late, even for the delayed apex? I sometimes feel like I miss the right stop and start going wide before I turn in.

What are you looking at? How might adjusting your visual skills help you with this problem?

Misti

Sometimes it's not really your fault. LOL

Vid here (http://www.vimeo.com/15971414)

Around 2:48 mark is when it happens.


For me, it's mostly I'm not entering the turn/corner fast enough. :D

If you're mind is telling you you're entering the turn/corner too fast just stand the bike up (assuming you're in mid-turn) and get on the brakes. But what most people don't understand is they think the speed you're entering the corner/turn is the speed you're be cornering which is not true. In other words, your "Oh shiet!" moment will most likely turn into a "Oh?" moment. :p

Really cool vid and song but when you do them at the same time its annoying.

I am currently reviewing my cornering Bibles as is my routine before every trackday. I wanted to revive this thread, one of my favorites! It usually takes me a good half a day at least to become comfortable on a new track. My morning on day 1 will be spent learning lines and turn-in and reference points. My biggest weakness on the track has always been braking too early and staying on the brakes too long coming into a corner instead of waiting later and braking harder. I'm hoping to work on that ever so slightly this weekend. Excited for some corners on the 300!

I found this quick read with Jennings-specific video regarding cornering strategies, particularly for first-timers at the track: http://www.allaboutbikes.com/feature-articles/tips-tricks/4002-tips-from-the-master-kevin-schwantz

Side note: I am actually starting to get more out of Total Control than Twist of the Wrist. Damn Keith Code should have hired me to be his editor. He and Doug Chandler even use "break" when they mean "brake" a few times in the book. Missing and incorrect punctuation, grammar errors all over the place, and feeling the need to asterisk and define words like realize, dazzling, and exit really take away from the credibility and intelligence of the message in the book. There. Off my teacher soapbox now.

Side note: I am actually starting to get more out of Total Control than Twist of the Wrist. Damn Keith Code should have hired me to be his editor. He and Doug Chandler even use "break" when they mean "brake" a few times in the book. Missing and incorrect punctuation, grammar errors all over the place, and feeling the need to asterisk and define words like realize, dazzling, and exit really take away from the credibility and intelligence of the message in the book. There. Off my teacher soapbox now.

i felt the same way. its targeted at a certain type of person i guess :rolleyes:

Side note: I am actually starting to get more out of Total Control than Twist of the Wrist. Damn Keith Code should have hired me to be his editor. He and Doug Chandler even use "break" when they mean "brake" a few times in the book. Missing and incorrect punctuation, grammar errors all over the place, and feeling the need to asterisk and define words like realize, dazzling, and exit really take away from the credibility and intelligence of the message in the book. There. Off my teacher soapbox now.

that's funny, I've never really noticed anything other than the "break" "brake" thing, I guess spotting grammatical errors and the like just isn't in my mind as a priority.

thank's for the bump, this is a fairly useful thread.

that's funny, I've never really noticed anything other than the "break" "brake" thing, I guess spotting grammatical errors and the like just isn't in my mind as a priority.

thank's for the bump, this is a fairly useful thread.

Being a teacher, it's part of my mindset. Even so, a widely published book like TOTW should have had an actual editor.

Being a teacher, it's part of my mindset. Even so, a widely published book like TOTW should have had an actual editor.

I can agree with that, no book should be published without being properly edited. Looks like I should look into getting a copy of total control to add to my daily reading now that my older brother has my copy of twist of the wrist II.

Total Control is AWESOME! Highly recommend it! :thumbup:

Total Control is AWESOME! Highly recommend it! :thumbup:

What's best about TC is not only can you read the book, but take the classes (which offer 3 levels) and actually practice what you read.
I'd like to see their level 1 be the standard BRC course :thumbup:


Can't recommend TC book and classes enough!!

What's best about TC is not only can you read the book, but take the classes (which offer 3 levels) and actually practice what you read.
I'd like to see their level 1 be the standard BRC course :thumbup:


Can't recommend TC book and classes enough!!

classes?

classes?

http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/

looks like a street oriented version of the california superbike school, which would likely work best if the rider goes through both programs. Unluckily none of them are close enough to me to justify riding out to empty my wallet and get better at riding by riding 9 hours before riding back. I think track days + books and self video are the way to go for me at the moment. thank's for the link though csmith

np, I am just happy to beat Motofool with a link out of the bag of tricks. :p lol

Ben I feel you.. like I would like to go to the CA superbike school, but just not feasible.
If your the go getter type, and have lots of buddies who ride or know how to reach bikers in your area. TC will setup a class if they get 10+ reservations and have facility to do it.

That's how it got started here in Nashville, now 2yrs later they hold 3 day's of class at least twice a yr.
Also our trainer travels down from NY state just to teach class(s).

If interested at all I can put you in contact w/ someone and go from there.

It's a little pricey for me overall so I'd have to wait until at least summer, I'll ask around over the summer if people want to do it. I know one person who would be interested for sure so worst case scenario we'd pack our bikes into his van and drive down to the VA/TN class or up to a NY class.

Oh man, I miss you guys!! I really miss my little ninjette.

Totally of topic but what the hell. I am putting my house on the market next month and for anyone who wants a great mountain home in E TN... let me know :) It is just a quick ride over the parkway to the Dragon. Absolutely awesome area to go riding (and practicing your cornering). The back yard is the Great Smoky Mountains.

There is a new school that runs Laguna.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=166768

I wish Raphael or michalangelo would write a motorcycle book!!! I could probly really get into reading that, or maybe Larry the cable guy...

Cornering is all about pushin it almost to far where you start to lose it and ave it at the last second!

Excellent adrenalin rush from that moment of being out of control

I feel like I need this for the 650. Not sure but its handling/weight or something scares me.
I feel like I can throw the 250 around easy slow or relatively fast on the street or track. 650... nope.

I should get the book me thinks.

Cornering is all about pushin it almost to far where you start to lose it and ave it at the last second!

Excellent adrenalin rush from that moment of being out of control

that and draggin knee, gotta remember to get some knee pucks that spark this summer :cool:

that and draggin knee, gotta remember to get some knee pucks that spark this summer :cool:

Haha . I am not that good. I get an adrenalin rush much earlier than sparking knee puck! Ill leave that to you haha

Haha . I am not that good. I get an adrenalin rush much earlier than sparking knee puck! Ill leave that to you haha

Its all about that corner exit. Everything just falls into place when you enter corners slowly and exit them flying hahaha. I wish it would warm up already though. These irc tires never really warm up in the cold. Then again what tires would.

Learned quite a bit from these videos.

G1rlQ0NmbWs


oc_DHzCypbs

I learned how to really put my weight to the inside of the bike today and holy #^$& what a difference did it make to my cornering ability. I really am making the jump from "turning" to "cornering" if that makes any sense. I feel a lot more committed and one with the bike.
I have been riding for a little while now and really just now understood how it felt to put my weight into the corner. I thought I was before, but I wasn't and I felt like I was very leaned over...but I wasn't really. The bike was.
Now that I put my weight towards the inside, and my head relatively towards the mirror, I have noticed that the bike isn't really leaning that much at all compared to before. It felt very natural. I see now more than ever why supersports are designed like they are with low clip ons and such.
Anyway, maybe this can be of interest to some guys like me who are making the jump from beginner to intermediate. The difference is seriously night and day when you get that weight inside. Makes it so simple and less intimidating to try to push a little harder

cornering - Look where you want to go.

http://trustingortripping.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/lookthroughtheturn.jpg

just sharing, trackday at Clark international speedway, Philippines with my 2013 ninjette 250r (16Mar2014)

http://i59.tinypic.com/155jqy9.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/2a61svo.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/2mg4ds.jpg