so currently I have the stock IRC tires on my 2010 ninja 250r, and recently when I've started to be able to lean more it feels like near the end of the tire that it "squishes" or sags it just feels really weird and I was wondering if it was the tires or me. Is it because the tires is bias-ply and it is flexing mid corner or it just because its not a quality tire or I'm just making things up haha.

Heres the track part: for Track/Street riding should I buy the 003's or the 090's. I've read through the threads about the comparisons and I know that I want a 140 rear size tire.

check your tire pressure before you start buying new tires

When you do get new tires I recommend the BT-003's 110 front and 140 rear. I have this setup on my race bike and I love them. I also have a set of them for my ZX-6R.

Check tire pressures, and if you have a 08 or later,...it might be time for you to adjust the rear suspension.

The bike comes with the rear in position 1, which is set to "soft as $&;+"
Use the wrench in the toolkit, to move it to position 2, which is "slightly harder than semi cooked raman noodles"

Its got more positions that go all the way up to "are you sure this thing has a rear shock".

Just be aware that if you set it tight, and you go down a bumpy road, that it will tend to kick you in the arse pretty hard, and if you take a corner....dont be surprised if the rear chatters a bit.

Good advice. Position #3 worked alright, then i just replaced the rear shock.

I have my suspension (rear shock) set to 2 I believe. I think my tire pressure is at 32 on each tire. Im considering setting it down to 28 on each to try and get more grip. When I get my suit this week I'll weigh about 185 ish with gear should I bump it up to 3 or 4 on the rear shock?

As far as the front forks I was reading that it's a great first upgrade, about how much would it cost for for new springs/oil set to my weight?

IRC on the new gen are almost as bad as the stockers on the 88-07.

could be pressure, shocks, or even bad geometry... i run the 003rs too... love em!

could be pressure, shocks, or even bad geometry... i run the 003rs too... love em!

Could the stock geometry be bad without changing anything(I'm really not sure)
I dropped the pressure today in my tires to 28 psi on each
Shock I'm considering moving it up to 3, but I'm curious. When the shock is set higher it holds more weight and puts less weight on the tires? But wouldn't it be better with a lower setting so that the contact patch on the tire is larger (Just a Thought)

not necessarily that the settings were wrong out of the box but for me personally someone must have changed the settings on my bike before i bought it... i was having trouble getting my front end stable so i dropped the forks and now i think i have 3mm on the top of the tree and it made a great difference... i run my 003rs at the track cold is 28/26... thats just my personal setting i like... it really depends how you plan to ride your bike... if i was riding street i would get longer lasting tires and my tire pressure would be higher... i didnt add alot of preload to my rear shock because im only 125lbs... so my rear setting is much softer also... but from the explanation you gave if everything seems right with pressure, no cupping visible on the tire...it sounds like its the bias ply

New Thought.

To drag knee do you have to be on the very edge of the tire?

The reason I ask is because I'm near the edge of the tire but it seems with my knee out that I'm still feet away from the ground. If you have to be on the edge it'll be awhile because I'm eying a set of 003 rs's

You do realize that having your knee out actually creates drag which slows you down, right? If you are positioning your body properly, you won't need to worry about max lean for most corners on the street.

If you haven't already, pick up some of the great books about riding and techniques that are available like Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Code. I personally loved that one.

to answer simply, no... you do not have to ride the edge of your tire to drag knee...

in response to Xoulrath, when you drag knee you are not grinding your knee into the pavement to cause drag and slow you down... i dont know where that comment came from

You do realize that having your knee out actually creates drag which slows you down, right? If you are positioning your body properly, you won't need to worry about max lean for most corners on the street.

If you haven't already, pick up some of the great books about riding and techniques that are available like Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Code. I personally loved that one.

I've read "Twist of The Wrist 2", I don't remember it specifically referring to mid-corner body position. I don't use my knee to create drag to slow myself down, more to gauge how much room I have left before I can't really lean anymore. I just got my race suit today so I wanted to see if I could use the knee slider but it seemed every time I got close to the ground it still seems really far away.

when you drag knee you are not grinding your knee into the pavement to cause drag and slow you down... i dont know where that comment came fromUhmm...OK. And I don't know where that comment came from.

I've read "Twist of The Wrist 2", I don't remember it specifically referring to mid-corner body position.IIRC, it doesn't say anything about mid-corner body position, because position should be set PRIOR to the corner, much less mid-corner.

I don't use my knee to create drag to slow myself down, more to gauge how much room I have left before I can't really lean anymore.My intention was to simply point out that more lean doesn't mean faster, and I specifically mentioned Keith's Twist books, the second in particular, because it talks about that in there. The racers who have notes in the book say basically the same thing as Code.

I have yet to be on a track, but that is a goal. I hoped to do at least a track day this year, but unless it happens in December (Road Atlanta had one then least year), it will be next year before I meet that goal. So full disclosure out of the way, I can absolutely say from my own experience that after reading and applying Keith's lessons, I became faster and more upright at the same time. I am in need of buying some of the other great riding technique books out there, so as to experience different teaching styles and see what might work best for me.

Tires matter, a lot. I have BT90 and they are a tremendous upgrade to IRC or even BT45. I was not aware of it that much until few days ago when I put them again after winter commutes with BT45. Whole winter I felt that something was wrong with the bike, and most of it disappeared with better tires.

I believe that knee drag is not something that slows you down by creating friction with air or ground. Sitting more upright when braking does have some effect, because drag area will be enlarged and friction coefficient will change for the worse, (because your whole body will stick out) but the brakes are doing 95% of the work.
You are not supposed to "reach" for the ground with your knee. Knee drag is supposed to be a side effect of good body position and sufficient lean angle.

I have yet to be on a track

With all due respect, until you do get some track time under your belt, maybe you should ease up on the advice. Reading about riding and practicing on the backroads is fine, but, until you are able to ride a bike anywhere close to its limits on a racetrack, you're just talking out of your ass.

To the question at hand:

No, you don't have to use the very edge of the tire to drag a knee; the 250 is a pretty low bike to begin with. Remember, however, that the frame on the little ninja is very, very stiff, and almost all the torsional force associated with changing directions is transmitted to the tire. By hanging off/swinging your leg out/dragging a knee, you're putting more of your weight on the inside of the turn, and helping the bike (and those poor tires, haha) through the process.

As it stands, don't worry about dragging your knee. It's cool for the first few times, but it becomes a regular part of riding on the track very quickly. Instead, focus on your lines, braking points, and being smooth. In almost all cases, the smoother you are, the more your laptimes drop. Before you know it, you'll feel a little pressure on that inside knee and hear the slider go "skkkkrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr." Give yourself a mental highfive, then get on with the session. :thumbup:

With all due respect, until you do get some track time under your belt, maybe you should ease up on the advice. Reading about riding and practicing on the backroads is fine, but, until you are able to ride a bike anywhere close to its limits on a racetrack, you're just talking out of your ass.

To the question at hand:

No, you don't have to use the very edge of the tire to drag a knee; the 250 is a pretty low bike to begin with. Remember, however, that the frame on the little ninja is very, very stiff, and almost all the torsional force associated with changing directions is transmitted to the tire. By hanging off/swinging your leg out/dragging a knee, you're putting more of your weight on the inside of the turn, and helping the bike (and those poor tires, haha) through the process.

As it stands, don't worry about dragging your knee. It's cool for the first few times, but it becomes a regular part of riding on the track very quickly. Instead, focus on your lines, braking points, and being smooth. In almost all cases, the smoother you are, the more your laptimes drop. Before you know it, you'll feel a little pressure on that inside knee and hear the slider go "skkkkrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr." Give yourself a mental highfive then get on with the session. :thumbup:

I liked that part.

I am becoming more comfortable with the stock IRC tires but I've realized that if I want to "feel" more secure and planted I need some new tires. I've got about 7k on these so its "about" time to switch. I know people have ran these tires for 10k plus but I use my bike for more pleasure than anything.

Thanks for the advice!

P.S Love your S1000RR

Stock tires are never as good as the real thing; the Q2s or whatever that come on a new bike are not the same as a Q2 that you'd buy from a Dunlop dealer.

Get yourself a pair of BT003RSs, and you'll have all the sticky you need. :thumbup:

Get yourself a pair of BT003RSs, and you'll have all the sticky you need. :thumbup:

:whathesaid:

Uhmm...OK. And I don't know where that comment came from.

IIRC, it doesn't say anything about mid-corner body position, because position should be set PRIOR to the corner, much less mid-corner.

My intention was to simply point out that more lean doesn't mean faster, and I specifically mentioned Keith's Twist books, the second in particular, because it talks about that in there. The racers who have notes in the book say basically the same thing as Code.

I have yet to be on a track, but that is a goal. I hoped to do at least a track day this year, but unless it happens in December (Road Atlanta had one then least year), it will be next year before I meet that goal. So full disclosure out of the way, I can absolutely say from my own experience that after reading and applying Keith's lessons, I became faster and more upright at the same time. I am in need of buying some of the other great riding technique books out there, so as to experience different teaching styles and see what might work best for me.


http://www.ibj.com/ext/resources/blog/thescore/uploads/2008/07/2007-motogp-catalunya.jpg


Clearly you can see the knee pucks are NEARLY STOPPING these professional racers as they make it around this apex.


Seriously man, I hear your view but you have to understand that as you carry more corner speed through a corner you will find that you have to lean the bike over to the edge of the tire in order to get the bike to complete the turn cleanly. If the bike is not dialed in you will find that either it's unstable on entry, it fights you mid corner (Too many mm showing above the triple tree) or the bike will run wide on exit. All of these issues including the normal problems of not knowing how to ride your bike will come into play.

Geometry and suspension setup will be different at EVERY track you show up to ride. You will have to keep a notebook or folder to write down your settings depending on the track conditions. Temp, humidity, and time of year will all play a part. Each track has a different surface so the setup will be different. Some tracks are really smooth so you can run a stiffer suspension, some tracks are really rough with elevation change and ruts so softer suspension will provide more grip but you will have to be smoother on the brakes so the front end doesn't dive.



Instruction provides the frame work for correct execution. The equipment you bring to the table also has to be properly setup otherwise you will find you are trying to out ride your bike.... not the track.



This isn't Kit, by the way. It's her guardian angel.

ride safe. be open minded. don't forget that forums are not FACT.

With all due respect, until you do get some track time under your belt, maybe you should ease up on the advice. Reading about riding and practicing on the backroads is fine, but, until you are able to ride a bike anywhere close to its limits on a racetrack, you're just talking out of your ass.I'll be sure to not paraphrase Keith Code again. I am quite certain he doesn't want to be told he is talking out of his ass.

The OP started talking about putting a knee down. You can put your knee down with the bike leaned over at half its max lean with your body weighted to the inside doing circles in a parking lot. It doesn't mean you can do it at speed, consistently. And it doesn't mean you can ride your bike at its max lean angle. That's what I'm saying. You have to understand that I am, by nature, someone who likes to help others. I said I have never been to a track in the interest of full disclosure. It doesn't make what I am saying about putting a knee down any less valid. I don't give erroneous information, and I don't give information that I am not sure about. The OP was initially talking about street/track riding and seemed to become fixated on putting a knee down. Go to a parking lot, ride around in a circle and slowly increase your lean angle. Done.

@kitsguardian: Yes, PROFESSIONAL RACERS, not amateur track day enthusiasts or even WERA weekend warriors, but PROFESSIONAL RACERS. As in they get paid to do that for a living. Those are extremes. I never said you didn't have to put a knee down to achieve max lean angle on a bike. I said you don't need to put a knee down to ride a bike fast through every corner, especially on the street. The OP mentioned street and track and I chimed in, with advice for the street, that could be applied to some corners on some tracks in some parts of the world at certain times of the day.

Some information is implied, and perhaps that is my fault. It is the internet and I should make sure I am being as clear in my thought sharing as possible.

You won't catch me giving advice specifically about tracks and/or exclusively track riding until after I have some experience to do so.

I sincerely apologize for any of my words that were misunderstood.

Wow, that's a lot of butthurt in one post. Chin up, buddy.

Getting into a good position for a corner (knee out and maybe even dragging :eek: ) is done so that you lean the bike LESS than if you took the same corner in center/upright position.

Putting your knee/leg out does create drag. Ride down the road and then push your knee out away from the bike... feel the wind catching it and creating drag? Yup! And I'm not even a professional :p

Ed, I used some cream; it's better now. :thumbup:

I'll be sure to not paraphrase Keith Code again. I am quite certain he doesn't want to be told he is talking out of his ass.

The OP started talking about putting a knee down. You can put your knee down with the bike leaned over at half its max lean with your body weighted to the inside doing circles in a parking lot. It doesn't mean you can do it at speed, consistently. And it doesn't mean you can ride your bike at its max lean angle. That's what I'm saying. You have to understand that I am, by nature, someone who likes to help others. I said I have never been to a track in the interest of full disclosure. It doesn't make what I am saying about putting a knee down any less valid. I don't give erroneous information, and I don't give information that I am not sure about. The OP was initially talking about street/track riding and seemed to become fixated on putting a knee down. Go to a parking lot, ride around in a circle and slowly increase your lean angle. Done.

@kitsguardian: Yes, PROFESSIONAL RACERS, not amateur track day enthusiasts or even WERA weekend warriors, but PROFESSIONAL RACERS. As in they get paid to do that for a living. Those are extremes. I never said you didn't have to put a knee down to achieve max lean angle on a bike. I said you don't need to put a knee down to ride a bike fast through every corner, especially on the street. The OP mentioned street and track and I chimed in, with advice for the street, that could be applied to some corners on some tracks in some parts of the world at certain times of the day.

Some information is implied, and perhaps that is my fault. It is the internet and I should make sure I am being as clear in my thought sharing as possible.

You won't catch me giving advice specifically about tracks and/or exclusively track riding until after I have some experience to do so.

I sincerely apologize for any of my words that were misunderstood.

I can understand from what I said about wanting to put my knee down but it isn't the fact that I just want me knee to touch the ground. I'll try and have my brother take a picture of my body position one day and I'll post it here so that people can critique it. I'm here to learn like many other forum members are, I appreciated everyones comments.

Interesting thread ... :)

if you look closely at motogp riders unless they are saving the front they barely knick their sliders -watch as they return to park ferme -their sliders are hardly used -if your concentrating on getting your knee down you are going slow-when body and feet position with right line and speed all come together your knee is going to hit without even thinking about it-i read michael scott article that was discussing rear tires getting levered off the ground in motogp by riders who were burying knee into the tarmac

If I may, you seem to be going to the next level of riding in which you are able to 'feel' what is going on. This could be tire, this could be tire pressure, this could be suspension, or any combination of issues.

My recommendation would be to now document what your settings are, play with different settings and ride the same ride, at the same speed, and then document the difference. I would do one at a time so as to not get confused or detracted from what changes you made.

In regards to knee down, there are several reasons for this. Sometimes it's just an indicator of how far you are leaned over in regards to body position, sometimes it's used to push the bike back up, sometimes it's used to take weight off of a bike to compensate for suspension or track irregularities, and sometimes it's just because you can and it looks fast. But there have been many world champions, national champions, and local champions, who all ride differently. Your setup will be tailored to your riding setup.

In regards to tires, on the Feel Like a Pro team, we are using Pirelli's on the bike and the rear tire is a 150. but for street riding/sport riding, make sure you pick a compound which benefits you. Suggestions are always helpful, but what I am using on the track may not be beneficial to you on your local street, so make sure you are talking with folks doing the same type of riding you are.

In regards to body position, lean angle, speed, etc. I offer this video as a comparison to a road race video, as to what can be done in just a parking lot to learn what can be done with a motorcycle. :D

http://www.dump.com/2011/02/24/unreal-control-on-honda-cbr600-video/

Good luck and good riding!

KazMan
aka - Eric
#110 AFM