Hi,

Sorry this is kind of long but it will give the big picture and save a lot of questions. I've tried to explain this on my other cycle forum but it sounds like only a ninjette owner will know what I'm talking about. Nothing against my friends at the faster bike forum but they mostly drive other bikes or are highly experienced and can't really relate to something so newbie as my questions.

First let me explain my lack of experience: Never ridden before and took the MTO course, had the flu at the time but it was too late to back out. Took it on a Kawi 140 dirtbike, no instruments etc.

Got through all the drills and my marks were good but on the second last drill for my M2 license, my ears were too plugged up and I didn't hear the whistle, panicked and hit the front too hard while turning my head to look at the instructor who was supposed to blow the whistle....

And of course you know what happened... over I went and if you fall in the test, you can't continue.
The first parts of the course went well and I decided that the whole world should be made up of corners :thumbup::thumbup: I ignored the whole countersteering lesson and tried to follow the directions in some of the books like Smooth Riding, Total Control and Twist of the Wrist. All legs and pegs and moving the body. It went so well that the instructor pointed out to the class how well I had done at countersteering. I didn't say a word. :o

My big problems were when I found out from forum friends that I should be able to use the clutch at times other than braking and shifting. Somehow I missed that and got through the course exercises without problems. I think it was because the little dirtbike could do all the slow speed maneuvers without changing from first and only using throttle or brake.

I didn't know what 'feathering the clutch' meant with regards to using it for control in slow speeds.

So..got the bike over a month and a half later and found that in a practice lot at slow speeds I was constantly bucking and chugging when I went back down to first to turn to try some slow exercises.

I *think* that part of it is me, since I'm not used to having to keep the throttle up/clutch partly in at slow speeds. And tonight, in Motorcyclist Mag I read that it's normal for the ninja to have an odd idle.
Lots of references to that in the two articles:

"...lean circuitry can sometimes cause hesitation off idle"
"Getting away from stoplights ahead of impatient motorist requires a fistfull of throttle and a deft clutch hand."
"The Ninja's low-rev anemia means you flog it or bog it."

And in the Streetbike Surgery section:
"But with it's off-idle roughness and paltry low-rev power.."
"First order of business is dealing with the Ninjas fussy off-idle engine behavior, Complaint #1 amongst owners of all skill levels."


It's not just me????
Well thank freakin' heaven for that. Aside from the brake panic lesson :rolleyes:, the whole course was a breeze so I was starting to think that I hadn't learned a thing.

Yes, I still need to redo and practice all those skills with this in mind before I brave the insane streets. No problem there, No rush. I'm going to try to retake the course on a bike with a little more oomph. I can't practice riding from my house because the traffic to get out of my driveway requires very slow riding during the day and my permit doesn't allow me to try it at night when the traffic slows.

Is that normal with all Ninja 250's or is my lack of skill just making it so much worse? All the other bits seem to work like a dream, shifting, braking, cornering. If I could go fast all the time it would be easy but sooner or later I will have to come into slow traffic - any tips to help me get a handle on this?

Okay now your eyeballs must hurt from reading all this - thanks for any tips or suggestions.

Welcome! In 1st gear, when you have the throttle completely closed and then transitioning to slighly open, the whole big gives a little bit of jolt like there is all of the sudden too much power. If that is what you are refering to, I have the same issue. I've basically given up on it because I believe it just has to do with the way the bike engine brakes. What you do is squeeze down on the clutch and rev the engine a little to smooth out the jolt. In time, you'll get the hang of it and to be honest, i'm rarely in 1st gear anyways. Most of the time in 2nd and 3rd even during slow maneuvers. That jolting sensation goes away after 3rd. I havent found a way to fix it, even with tweaking the idle circuit.

The bogging refers to the bike feeling hesitant accelerating from a dead stop through 1st gear. Without actually watching you ride in person, I'd say that the constant bucking is coming from inexperienced throttle and clutch control. You need to find the right amount of clutch and throttle to apply for your slow speed turns. Just enough throttle to keep the engine from chugging and work the friction point to control the bike. Feathering the rear brake will also help in your slow speed turns. Keep practising and you'll eventually get it.

Every so often, I find an empty parking lot to practice slow speed techniques as you can only always get better at it. My bucking is very minimal now compared to when I first started riding.

How slow are you going? At 3000 rpm in 1st, the bike is only going 8 mph. For it to be bucking around and running rough, I'd imagine it would have to be even lower than 3k rpm, so almost down to a walking speed. Are you sure that you're in 1st gear?

Hi,

Sorry this is kind of long but it will give the big picture and save a lot of questions. I've tried to explain this on my other cycle forum but it sounds like only a ninjette owner will know what I'm talking about. Nothing against my friends at the faster bike forum but they mostly drive other bikes or are highly experienced and can't really relate to something so newbie as my questions.

First let me explain my lack of experience: Never ridden before and took the MTO course, had the flu at the time but it was too late to back out. Took it on a Kawi 140 dirtbike, no instruments etc.

Got through all the drills and my marks were good but on the second last drill for my M2 license, my ears were too plugged up and I didn't hear the whistle, panicked and hit the front too hard while turning my head to look at the instructor who was supposed to blow the whistle....

And of course you know what happened... over I went and if you fall in the test, you can't continue.
The first parts of the course went well and I decided that the whole world should be made up of corners :thumbup::thumbup: I ignored the whole countersteering lesson and tried to follow the directions in some of the books like Smooth Riding, Total Control and Twist of the Wrist. All legs and pegs and moving the body. It went so well that the instructor pointed out to the class how well I had done at countersteering. I didn't say a word. :o

My big problems were when I found out from forum friends that I should be able to use the clutch at times other than braking and shifting. Somehow I missed that and got through the course exercises without problems. I think it was because the little dirtbike could do all the slow speed maneuvers without changing from first and only using throttle or brake.

I didn't know what 'feathering the clutch' meant with regards to using it for control in slow speeds.

So..got the bike over a month and a half later and found that in a practice lot at slow speeds I was constantly bucking and chugging when I went back down to first to turn to try some slow exercises.

I *think* that part of it is me, since I'm not used to having to keep the throttle up/clutch partly in at slow speeds. And tonight, in Motorcyclist Mag I read that it's normal for the ninja to have an odd idle.
Lots of references to that in the two articles:

"...lean circuitry can sometimes cause hesitation off idle"
"Getting away from stoplights ahead of impatient motorist requires a fistfull of throttle and a deft clutch hand."
"The Ninja's low-rev anemia means you flog it or bog it."

And in the Streetbike Surgery section:
"But with it's off-idle roughness and paltry low-rev power.."
"First order of business is dealing with the Ninjas fussy off-idle engine behavior, Complaint #1 amongst owners of all skill levels."


It's not just me????
Well thank freakin' heaven for that. Aside from the brake panic lesson :rolleyes:, the whole course was a breeze so I was starting to think that I hadn't learned a thing.

Yes, I still need to redo and practice all those skills with this in mind before I brave the insane streets. No problem there, No rush. I'm going to try to retake the course on a bike with a little more oomph. I can't practice riding from my house because the traffic to get out of my driveway requires very slow riding during the day and my permit doesn't allow me to try it at night when the traffic slows.

Is that normal with all Ninja 250's or is my lack of skill just making it so much worse? All the other bits seem to work like a dream, shifting, braking, cornering. If I could go fast all the time it would be easy but sooner or later I will have to come into slow traffic - any tips to help me get a handle on this?

Okay now your eyeballs must hurt from reading all this - thanks for any tips or suggestions.


Going fast on a bike is the easiest part of riding. Slow speed maneuvers is where your skill on a bike is needed. Yes the little ninjas need there revs but not nearly as bad as the quotes you stated, Proper clutch and throttle can let you take off like a rocket but if you are just going at low speed and are jerking the bike all over then it is your skills that need to improve. Ok so now that we got that out of the way what to work on.

first is throttle control, My guess is if the bike is jerking around that much in low speed in first gear you are to hard on and off the throttle. You want to find that smooth spot the throttle has, where a light pull will get you going smooth or releasing it some will engine break. Parking lot practice for a few hours will get that one going for you. Its a gentle roll on and off to control the low speeds.

Clutch feathering is useful as well, But needs to be used with proper throttle control. you have to have a little bit of throttle and then work the clutch to help with speed. Again you need to work on this in a parking lot. I only do the clutch feathering if i am going so slow i cant let it out all the way. that may just be personal preference on my part but i don't feather in low speeds often if at all.

Hi Setasai,

My issue is more with getting the bucking and chugging after going back down to 1st.

When I went out for my first ride on some quiet back streets all was well until I turned into a parking lot to turn around. It acted like I was still in second - seemed to buck and chug like it was going to stall. It goes away completely when I get going again.

I tried the same again and made sure I was in first and not second - same thing happened. Obviously I'm not skilled at keeping the throttle totally steady but I have no problems like this at other speeds. Nice and steady.

It worries me because I don't have that clutch-feathering experience yet and I certainly don't want to spend my whole first while stalling everytime I get back down into 1st.

Can you sit at a light with your hand totally off the throttle? Mine seems like it would stall. :confused20:

It runs like a dream when I start it and am sitting with it idling but as soon as I've ridden for a while, it hates to go into first without me keeping the revs high.

Can you sit at a light with your hand totally off the throttle? Mine seems like it would stall. :confused20:



adjust your idle speed to 1500rpm after the bike has completely warmed up. what is your idle speed now?

What is your idle speed? (bike fully warmed up, sitting at a stop in neutral, hand off of the throttle). If it's 1000 rpm or lower, it would run quite rough. Try adjusting it closer to 1500 rpm, and that might fix part of the issue. (to adjust it, there is a black knob to turn down by your left knee peeking out near the side plate of the bike.)

Edit: I owe KKim yet another beer...

Hi Setasai,

My issue is more with getting the bucking and chugging after going back down to 1st.

When I went out for my first ride on some quiet back streets all was well until I turned into a parking lot to turn around. It acted like I was still in second - seemed to buck and chug like it was going to stall. It goes away completely when I get going again.

I tried the same again and made sure I was in first and not second - same thing happened. Obviously I'm not skilled at keeping the throttle totally steady but I have no problems like this at other speeds. Nice and steady.

It worries me because I don't have that clutch-feathering experience yet and I certainly don't want to spend my whole first while stalling everytime I get back down into 1st.

Can you sit at a light with your hand totally off the throttle? Mine seems like it would stall. :confused20:

It runs like a dream when I start it and am sitting with it idling but as soon as I've ridden for a while, it hates to go into first without me keeping the revs high.

Like the others said, I think its more of a practice thing. Reason is that the stock 250's are very very lean in the lower revs (1500-5000rpm). As a result, the bike has very little power down in the lower rpm range (less than 6k or so). When I had the bike new, I decided to go ahead and shim the needles and that helped dramatically. It's not necessary though. Many riders here have kept it stock and just learned how to control the throttle and clutch to keep the bike happy.

EDIT: This forum needs realtime posting or we're going to keep having a bunch of duplicates. =)

The bogging refers to the bike feeling hesitant accelerating from a dead stop through 1st gear. Without actually watching you ride in person, I'd say that the constant bucking is coming from inexperienced throttle and clutch control. You need to find the right amount of clutch and throttle to apply for your slow speed turns. Just enough throttle to keep the engine from chugging and work the friction point to control the bike. Feathering the rear brake will also help in your slow speed turns. Keep practising and you'll eventually get it.

Every so often, I find an empty parking lot to practice slow speed techniques as you can only always get better at it. My bucking is very minimal now compared to when I first started riding.
It only does the bucking thing when I've gone back down to first after riding around normally (on a deserted street of course!)
When someone finally showed me what the friction point was it was like a revelation! I definitely need to work on that, thanks! I love all those slow speed skills that you see at police training obstacle courses - would love to get somewhere near that kind of control someday.

How slow are you going? At 3000 rpm in 1st, the bike is only going 8 mph. For it to be bucking around and running rough, I'd imagine it would have to be even lower than 3k rpm, so almost down to a walking speed. Are you sure that you're in 1st gear?
I thought I must be in second so I did the same practice run over again and made sure it was in first, same thing happened, when turning in the parking lot or going straight across it. Yes, it was closer to walking speed at that point. I guess I was kind of freaked out by it since it never happened in the course. My bike is still in the break in so I can't go above 4000kms.

Going fast on a bike is the easiest part of riding. Slow speed maneuvers is where your skill on a bike is needed. Yes the little ninjas need there revs but not nearly as bad as the quotes you stated, Proper clutch and throttle can let you take off like a rocket but if you are just going at low speed and are jerking the bike all over then it is your skills that need to improve. Ok so now that we got that out of the way what to work on.
No dopubt my skills need to be improved :) will try to keep improving them all my life. But it didn't feel like I was jerking the bike all over, had no trouble keeping my line in the turns or keeping the wheels directly on the line of the parking lot. It just felt like I would stall.

first is throttle control, My guess is if the bike is jerking around that much in low speed in first gear you are to hard on and off the throttle. You want to find that smooth spot the throttle has, where a light pull will get you going smooth or releasing it some will engine break. Parking lot practice for a few hours will get that one going for you. Its a gentle roll on and off to control the low speeds.
Definitely need that. I've gotten the roll on/roll off, rocker thing going but may not have been too smooth with that when the bike started jumping and dipping. Will practice the throttle control,...a lot.

Clutch feathering is useful as well, But needs to be used with proper throttle control. you have to have a little bit of throttle and then work the clutch to help with speed. Again you need to work on this in a parking lot. I only do the clutch feathering if i am going so slow i cant let it out all the way. that may just be personal preference on my part but i don't feather in low speeds often if at all.
Personal preference or not it all helps me to know what others experience, thanks!

Will be practicing when I can get a day off with a trailer or get to another course. Hopefully this time I will have a bike that behaves more like the ninja. The dirtbike at the course didn't do that at all, it was very smooth wrt the throttle. Practice makes perfect...or at least safe enought to try a real road someday.

adjust your idle speed to 1500rpm after the bike has completely warmed up. what is your idle speed now?

What is your idle speed? (bike fully warmed up, sitting at a stop in neutral, hand off of the throttle). If it's 1000 rpm or lower, it would run quite rough. Try adjusting it closer to 1500 rpm, and that might fix part of the issue. (to adjust it, there is a black knob to turn down by your left knee peeking out near the side plate of the bike.)

Edit: I owe KKim yet another beer...

Will do, thanks! Yes, if I move it up to 1500, it seems to be much happier.

My bike is still in the break in so I can't go above 4000kms.

Don't stress over keeping it below 4k rpms religiously.

http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/Break-in

Will do, thanks! Yes, if I move it up to 1500, it seems to be much happier.

once you get the idle up to 1500, starting off should be smoother. for low speed maneuvers, I like to raise the throttle rpms to about 2500-3000 and just keep it there. I lightly drag my back brake to adjust my speed as I slip the clutch in the friction zone to keep the revs up in that 2500-3000 target range.

I know, it sounds complicated, but learn one thing at a time in a deserted parking lot as the others have said. it all comes down to practice, practice, practice. :)

once you get the idle up to 1500, starting off should be smoother. for low speed maneuvers, I like to raise the throttle rpms to about 2500-3000 and just keep it there. I lightly drag my back brake to adjust my speed as I slip the clutch in the friction zone to keep the revs up in that 2500-3000 target range.

I know, it sounds complicated, but learn one thing at a time in a deserted parking lot as the others have said. it all comes down to practice, practice, practice. :)

As a new rider myself, I've been doing a lot of this. Slow maneuvering in parking lots using a constant rate of throttle and then feathering the clutch for smooth acceleration with a bit of back brake to slow myself down. :thumbup:

As Alex and Kelly recommended, adjust your rpms to 1500 or even alittle higher for a little while to help you out. Pay attention to your posture and keep your wrist relaxed.

There are some physical modifications to the bike you may want to consider. Depending on how competent you are as a mechanic, some are more complex then others.

Adjust your handlebar levers: depending on your height you may need to adjust your bar controls to make them more friendly and ergonomic for you. I'm 6'2" and I had to angle the controls downward slightly. It was very uncomfortable on my wrists to operate the controls for extended periods, with my wrists bent up. This is a simple adjustment that takes no more then 5 min and a wrench to complete. The shift and rear brake levers are also adjustable. you should review their positions now and from time to time as you progress as a rider. Heres an article about this topic.http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/adjusting_your_bike/index.html

Shim the Kush: The ninja has a cushion drive installed in the hub of the back wheel. Its supposed to soften things up when the bike switches from acceleration to deceleration and vise versa. The only problem is that there are large gaps in the assembly that actually cause roughness when going back and forth from accel and decel. This is no good in slow, stop and go traffic or in parking lots as the assembly actually bangs against itself. Mine were really loose and it was very non-user friendly. To correct this problem the rear tire must be removed and shims need to be evenly distributed around the cushion drive. The shims will cause the two sides of the assembly to remain in contact with each other. This eliminates the banging and stops the bike from being so jerky. It may sound complicated but its actually quite simple. Take a look at the DIY to see the assembly and more explanation.
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_shim_the_cush_drive

Change the front sprocket: I put a 15Tooth front sprocket on the bike and I'm never going back to the 14T. It lowered my rpms some on the highway and it made take offs alittle more fun in first gear. To me it seemed to make 1st alittle more useful and user friendly (not that much :p) There are different ratios available to you by changing both the front and rear sprockets. It comes down to personal preference. This is an involved operation that isnt that difficult for someone with a little mechanical experience and the right tools. There are articles and DIYs all over the net and here on the site for this one.

Shimming the carb needles and pulling the snorkel: This is the most involved procedure. Some claim it has positive effects on the bikes low speed usability. I personally have not come around to doing this yet. I'm sure others will chime in here for me. I wouldnt attempt this unless your handy with a wrench or know someone who is. Try reading through the responses in the DIY thread to see if this is for you.
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11963&highlight=shimming

Sorry for the book. Keep your eyes on the road :rolleyes:

I ignored the whole countersteering lesson and tried to follow the directions in some of the books like Smooth Riding, Total Control and Twist of the Wrist. All legs and pegs and moving the body. It went so well that the instructor pointed out to the class how well I had done at countersteering. I didn't say a word. :o

Off topic:
If I'm interpreting what you said correctly, this isn't the way things work. I haven't read smooth riding, but Total Control and Twist of the Wrist very much are about countersteering. See the "no bs" bike, etc.

Keith Code advocates using the outside peg as a pivot to push on the bars to countersteer. There is simply no other way to turn a motorcycle.

If you're saying you just ignored the MTO countersteering technique in favor of your own method of countersteering, that's one thing, but I read this as you saying you steered with your body instead of the handlebars. :thumbup:

Off topic:
If I'm interpreting what you said correctly, this isn't the way things work. I haven't read smooth riding, but Total Control and Twist of the Wrist very much are about countersteering. See the "no bs" bike, etc.

Keith Code advocates using the outside peg as a pivot to push on the bars to countersteer. There is simply no other way to turn a motorcycle.

If you're saying you just ignored the MTO countersteering technique in favor of your own method of countersteering, that's one thing, but I read this as you saying you steered with your body instead of the handlebars. :thumbup:

I think Firehorse is doing more countersteering than he realizes. I’ve been riding a scooter (as well as road bicycles) for years and had never heard of countersteering until my MSF class. However I’d been turning came completely natural. Sure enough, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that all these years I had in fact been countersteering and just didn’t realize it.


And FTR, I too experience bucking in first gear. I get around it by feathering the clutch + better throttle control

once you get the idle up to 1500, starting off should be smoother. for low speed maneuvers, I like to raise the throttle rpms to about 2500-3000 and just keep it there. I lightly drag my back brake to adjust my speed as I slip the clutch in the friction zone to keep the revs up in that 2500-3000 target range.

I know, it sounds complicated, but learn one thing at a time in a deserted parking lot as the others have said. it all comes down to practice, practice, practice. :)

What kkim said.... for sure

I will put it to you the way my msf rider coach told me. "To ride fast you use the throttle. To ride slow, steady your RPMs then you control your speed with the clutch and rear brake".

I can only add, Its a "slippery" place to be (pun), but the friction zone is your friend.

Can you sit at a light with your hand totally off the throttle? Mine seems like it would stall. :confused20:

It runs like a dream when I start it and am sitting with it idling but as soon as I've ridden for a while, it hates to go into first without me keeping the revs high.


Yes, as long as the clutch is disengaged (ie: pulled in).
I find low-speed maneuvers much easier and smoother in 2nd gear, including u-turns. Good luck with your practice!

You guys are brilliant, thank you! Lots to look at and practice when I can get out. Kind of a shame that I learned the slow riding skills all wrong the first time round but on the bright side, it was quite a while ago and only for two days really so no bad techniques have been drilled into my head.

Off topic:
If I'm interpreting what you said correctly, this isn't the way things work. I haven't read smooth riding, but Total Control and Twist of the Wrist very much are about countersteering. See the "no bs" bike, etc.
Keith Code advocates using the outside peg as a pivot to push on the bars to countersteer. There is simply no other way to turn a motorcycle.

They're not against 'countersteering' per say but explain the physics of what is moving the bike and I really understood that. When I read about countersteering, it just got me thinking too much instead of instinctively doing it. One of the best tips was when one of them mentioned that you didn't need your hands on the bars to steer a bicycle but it still moved in the direction you wanted it to. Made sense to me.

When I went through the cone drills, I could take my hand off the clutch and rest it on my lap and it still turned sharply when I needed it to. All the physics of the bike worked exactly the way it was designed to. And Nooooo, I will not be riding with one hand :eek:

If you're saying you just ignored the MTO countersteering technique in favor of your own method of countersteering, that's one thing, but I read this as you saying you steered with your body instead of the handlebars. :thumbup:
Yup, you read that right. Sometimes all I needed to turn was to 'push' on the peg or tank. I ignored the explanation because I found it so confusing in the books, I didn't want to have to think every time I turned the bike. Not saying it doesn't work (it obviously does) but I am not an instinctive rider at all and I dream about twisties and a newbie track so I wanted this one thing to be learned by feel.
And it worked. :)

Oh and by the way, I can't remember who mentioned 'he' but I'm a 'she' ;)

I'm going to check out the idle speed first and so far all the controls are in pretty good position for my size. My wrists are in a nice relaxed position and as long as I remember to lose the deathgrip and relax my arms, no wrist issues. I think I would like the bars a wee bit lower but I'll work on my basic skills before I do any of those type mods.

I should also mention that the articles I quoted were not slamming the nijna in any way. One was a comparison article and the other was how to mod it up with some 'necessities' - brilliant article and I'll be tackling them one by one as soon as I get the practice in.

Thanks again, will follow up those links :thumbup:

Oh and by the way, I can't remember who mentioned 'he' but I'm a 'she' ;)

Explains the avatar pic T. That is you right?

Woman + Ninja = Certified Awesome :thumbup:

Yup, you read that right. Sometimes all I needed to turn was to 'push' on the peg or tank. I ignored the explanation because I found it so confusing in the books, I didn't want to have to think every time I turned the bike. Not saying it doesn't work (it obviously does) but I am not an instinctive rider at all and I dream about twisties and a newbie track so I wanted this one thing to be learned by feel.
And it worked. :)

I remember this very clearly from my first time on a bike and running through the MSF course as well. At parking lot speeds, the countersteering lessons seemed superfluous. I intellectually captured what they were trying to teach, but I found the bikes to be easy to turn almost by feel, just as you describe. I'm sure I was countersteering a small bit, but certainly not forcefully, and things just worked as I'd expect on a bicycle that we've ridden all of our lives.

But....

Then you take the motorcycle from < 20 mph, up to 50+ mph for the first time, and you try to turn the bike even gently where you want to go, and suddenly it doesn't respond nearly as easily as it did on the range. And you push the left bar, and bing! The light goes on upstairs and the bike turns left. Controlling a motorcycle at speed requires countersteering, it's not an option. People are either doing it consciously or unconsciously, but without it a bike can't make even the most gentle turns while at speed. All of the other steering inputs one can make to a motorcycle (weighting pegs, body positioning, brakes, throttle, etc.) can all make noticeable differences, but none of them will ever provide enough steering input to make up for a rider who isn't actively countersteering.

Anyway - no need to further debate this or even worry about this terribly until you need to, as I'm confident that once you get up to speed, it will kick in with you just like it does with the rest of us.

Explains the avatar pic T. That is you right?

Woman + Ninja = Certified Awesome :thumbup:
Yup, that's me with the big goofy grin :-)

I remember this very clearly from my first time on a bike and running through the MSF course as well. At parking lot speeds, the countersteering lessons seemed superfluous. I intellectually captured what they were trying to teach, but I found the bikes to be easy to turn almost by feel, just as you describe. I'm sure I was countersteering a small bit, but certainly not forcefully, and things just worked as I'd expect on a bicycle that we've ridden all of our lives.

But....

Then you take the motorcycle from < 20 mph, up to 50+ mph for the first time, and you try to turn the bike even gently where you want to go, and suddenly it doesn't respond nearly as easily as it did on the range. And you push the left bar, and bing! The light goes on upstairs and the bike turns left. Controlling a motorcycle at speed requires countersteering, it's not an option. People are either doing it consciously or unconsciously, but without it a bike can't make even the most gentle turns while at speed. All of the other steering inputs one can make to a motorcycle (weighting pegs, body positioning, brakes, throttle, etc.) can all make noticeable differences, but none of them will ever provide enough steering input to make up for a rider who isn't actively countersteering.

Anyway - no need to further debate this or even worry about this terribly until you need to, as I'm confident that once you get up to speed, it will kick in with you just like it does with the rest of us.

Yup , I agree. I guess it just came naturally at 'speed' (45kph - don't laugh.. :)) so I wasn't conscious of doing it. I know Rossi doesn't always use his hands at speed but the only thing he and I have in common is a love of pasta..:embarassed:

Now if I could only get my slow issues worked out.. :( I'll worry about steering around the parking lot after I can get out of the driveway to practice again. Eying up a trailer and also waiting for a spot at the IRT newbie training course - would like to learn it again from scratch.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I'll post my results of the idle check-up when I get a chance to look things over in daylight. Have laptop, manual and patience - wish me luck!

I'm a little late to the party but when you say buck do you mean when you downshift into first you nosedive? Are you blipping the throttle? The difference between first and second is bigger than the other gears so it's more important to give it a blip. Our bikes are touchy in the low end but it may not be the issue here.

That doesn't mean it couldn't use a shim or two eventually though :p

I'm tellin ya...shimming the cush was one of the best free mods I've done. My rear end used to practically bang when switching between acceleration and decelertion. Having to focus on this drivelash and not making it pound as hard was horrible in slow stop and go traffic. It added more work. Personally, I believe a dramatic impact of the drive is a potential hazard....(imo)

Adding the shims created a much more fluid transition between accel and decel now and eliminated the"hiting" when changing between the two. I highly recommend it to anyone with a looser rear connection and to all new riders. Helped me out alot.

Here's a DIY link for the mod and a little more detail about the issue:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_shim_the_cush_drive

I'm tellin ya...shimming the cush was one of the best free mods I've done. My rear end used to practically bang when switching between acceleration and decelertion. Having to focus on this drivelash and not making it pound as hard was horrible in slow stop and go traffic. It added more work. Personally, I believe a dramatic impact of the drive is a potential hazard....(imo)

Adding the shims created a much more fluid transition between accel and decel now and eliminated the"hiting" when changing between the two. I highly recommend it to anyone with a looser rear connection and to all new riders. Helped me out alot.

Here's a DIY link for the mod and a little more detail about the issue:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_shim_the_cush_drive

Agreed. Helped alot for me too. Might I also add that I just added the 15T front sprocket and that eliminated practically all the bucking I had. It changes the gear ratio "just" enough, not alot, to dampen the surge of power in 1st and 2nd gear.

Agreed. Helped alot for me too. Might I also add that I just added the 15T front sprocket and that eliminated practically all the bucking I had. It changes the gear ratio "just" enough, not alot, to dampen the surge of power in 1st and 2nd gear.

I definitly agree on the 15T. I think its a great upgrade. The two compliment each other quite well in helping slow speed operation and maneuverability among other things.

Well, it's been a while but I've learned a ton. :eek:
Sorry, long post update!

Still a billion hours of learning to go but:

Took another course at the Bowmanville Mosport Track. Rider Training Institute, another beginner class taught by people who know sportbikes.
I got to use a little cbr125 and whoa! Like night and day from my first course.

Now I get the clutch thing and what a difference. I can putter along like a snail if I need to. And the instructors helped me get over my fear of having the bike roaring (revving) like a monster to get away at a light.

Funny, on this course I wasn't told to look up once, I guess I felt more comfortable??

The bike I had the first day had the friction zone way out at the end of the range like my ninja so I stalled a quarter million times but eventually got it. So much that I actually passed!

The tough part was learning to blip the throttle, lots of practice coming :thumbup:

The easy part again was the slalom. The instructors called me over part way through and asked me what happened???? I wasn't sure what they meant at first but I guess I went from timid mouse rider to corner demon. They told me I was the first one in their course to ever scrape a peg on the 125.

I got high fives from them all and went back to my puttering-trying not to stall self. Too bad the world is not all made of corners. Tried some turns at speed on the straights and during the test and that worked too. Not as much fun making fast sharp turns but I'll grow into it and practice it since I may need it someday.

Today I got to try the ninja in the driveway to test out my new clutch feathering skills. MUCH better. Stalled a few times because the engine probably wasn't warmed up enough.
Idle is still too low but I'll adjust it farther as suggested.
Held the revs up and didn't have a panic attack..:):rolleyes:

It seems a lot lighter now that I had some fun on the little cbr.

Tried shooting up the driveway as though I was at a traffic light and it went 'perfect' the first time except that it stalled when I braked at the sidewalk. Need practice KEEPING the throttle cranked a bit. Worked the next few times but I was probably keeping the revs a bit too high. For the first time I think that yes, it will come eventually.

No bucking in first on the cbr or wanting to stall out when I went down to first from higher speeds. I learned "passive downshifting" so I think that's what I should have been doing on the ninja.

Now that I have my M2 license, I can ride at night so that means I can get out onto my busy street when there's no maniacs around during the early morning hours (not actually night riding yet!). It's almost deserted then except for all the critters coming and going so will be extra mindful of that. This way I can get to the practice parking lot without worrying.

I'll be writing a review for the course I took and will see about posting it up here. It was such a different course from the first one that maybe I can help someone else who was stuck thinking that they would never be able learn?

Off to bed early tonight to be able to wake up early to get out there and learn to NOT stall :) Baby steps :thumbup:

Just a weird observation before I go: did anyone else take a course and then find themselves shoulder-checking constantly even when they were just walking across a parking lot? I feel like an owl. Good job by the instructors!:happy10:

Got my service manual so I'll feel more confident tackling the sprocket and shim mods. Thanks all!

Just a weird observation before I go: did anyone else take a course and then find themselves shoulder-checking constantly even when they were just walking across a parking lot? I feel like an owl. Good job by the instructors!:happy10:


Yep: I was doing that too. I've also, accidentally, been performing motorcycle safe riding techniques on my bicycle: observation - indication - manoeuvre etc

As for your 1st gear stuttering. I know exactly what you mean. I tend to opt for 2nd gear for slow manoeuvres. If I really need 1st gear for a slow speed manoeuvre then I feather the clutch the entire time - I never let it fully engage.

Yep: I was doing that too. I've also, accidentally, been performing motorcycle safe riding techniques on my bicycle: observation - indication - manoeuvre etc

As for your 1st gear stuttering. I know exactly what you mean. I tend to opt for 2nd gear for slow manoeuvres. If I really need 1st gear for a slow speed manoeuvre then I feather the clutch the entire time - I never let it fully engage.

Glad I'm not alone with the shoulder checking! Will be learning to drive a car again and I should get great marks for that part. I'll probably feel rather vulnerable with no helmet though!

Now that I finally get the feathering bit, I'll try using 2nd more for those slow moves. Thanks!

Dont bother ever going in 1st onless ur completely stopped and feet down and need to start again. Other then that always cycle down to 2nd and stay there. Can easily pick up and continue rolling in 2nd at lights. I only switch to 1 when completely stopped. This might help. Idle range is set to 1250 roughly.

Dont bother ever going in 1st onless ur completely stopped and feet down and need to start again. Other then that always cycle down to 2nd and stay there. Can easily pick up and continue rolling in 2nd at lights. I only switch to 1 when completely stopped. This might help. Idle range is set to 1250 roughly.

The idle was set at about 1000-1250 when I got it but it stalls there when I take my hand off the throttle at a stop and in either 1st or neutral, I raised it to 2k and no problems so far except when I come to a quick stop like practicing emergency stops - stalls out sometimes. I think that's just my bad technique though..:( it needs work.
Thanks Ren, next practice may be Wednesday, weather permitting!

hey,
dont use your throttle to control your speed when going slow, use the clutch! keep the revs steady and use your clutch the control your speed. when you want to slow the pull in the clutch and to speed up let it out alittle and keep going back and forwards to keep you traveling at the speed you need. keep your head and chin up in the direction you want to go and dont look to close in front,look where your going almost past where you would like if driving a car, glancing down with your eyes if needed etc and keeop head/chin in direction you want to go, as other said try it in a parking lot,.. as some guy on youtube said " the clutch is your buddy and your front brake is your friend". so use them and they will watch your back so to speak. your throttle is really only used once your wanting to power down to get moving. My brother went for his learners permit here is Australia and he called me on the lunch break after practicing the different testing riding stuff and said he had trouble with the slow ride as have to ride down between narrow lines for 7-8 meters in more then 10 secs (easy) and told him the above and when he passed he said how much that helped as he was using the throttle to control speed not the clutch..
Paulie

Hi Pauie!

You described the problem perfectly. Look at my post a couple back from Sept. 4th. I took another course after I realized I wasn't using the clutch properly. This course was done by people who know sportbikes so it was fabulous. I passed no trouble at all.

What a difference the clutch makes when you understand it!
I still need to get used to keeping the revs higher but that will come with time.
No problem looking up now either :thumbup:

I just need to work on being relaxed in traffic. Found a riding buddy on here so hopefully the weather will hold out.

For a while I was wondering if I should just give up, now I think buying the bike was the smartest thing I ever did. And it gives me an excuse to keep learning and using my brain.

Glad to hear your brother got the hang of it. For inspiration show him some of those police competition videos - all clutch control. Wow. Inspired me!

Thanks

How slow are you going? At 3000 rpm in 1st, the bike is only going 8 mph. For it to be bucking around and running rough, I'd imagine it would have to be even lower than 3k rpm, so almost down to a walking speed. Are you sure that you're in 1st gear?

I know this thread a few months old, but I am still learning my bike, so I thought I'd chime in. If what the OP is describing is what I experience, mine is usually an incomplete shift down into first. The first time it happened to me, it nearly scared me to death! I had bucking and very little power and no idea what was wrong, so of course I opened up the throttle... I was very glad that day that I was on a 250, because when the engine caught... yeah... :confused30:

So anyway, this still happens to me. Less frequently, but still consistently. And always after down shifting. I am not miscounting my downshifts either, I just keep stomping that thing, but sometimes, it just doesn't get into 1st. I am cognizant of this now, so when I am at a full stop, I shift to neutral, then back into first just to be sure. My husband also taught me to rock forward a little, which sometimes helps me to engage first when it gets stuck. I'm not sure if there is a mod to help with this?

When this happens now, I know how to just re-shift, or just slowly roll on the throttle until it smooths out... just wanted to throw that out there for any other noobs! Mine is not a clutch/throttle issue, it is pretty much always a mis-shift. I swore up and down that it wasn't when my husband suggest that I was trying to engage from 2nd gear, but I guess he gets to be right sometimes... :ashamed20:

I know this thread a few months old, but I am still learning my bike, so I thought I'd chime in. If what the OP is describing is what I experience, mine is usually an incomplete shift down into first. The first time it happened to me, it nearly scared me to death! I had bucking and very little power and no idea what was wrong, so of course I opened up the throttle... I was very glad that day that I was on a 250, because when the engine caught... yeah... :confused30:

So anyway, this still happens to me. Less frequently, but still consistently. And always after down shifting. I am not miscounting my downshifts either, I just keep stomping that thing, but sometimes, it just doesn't get into 1st. I am cognizant of this now, so when I am at a full stop, I shift to neutral, then back into first just to be sure. My husband also taught me to rock forward a little, which sometimes helps me to engage first when it gets stuck. I'm not sure if there is a mod to help with this?

When this happens now, I know how to just re-shift, or just slowly roll on the throttle until it smooths out... just wanted to throw that out there for any other noobs! Mine is not a clutch/throttle issue, it is pretty much always a mis-shift. I swore up and down that it wasn't when my husband suggest that I was trying to engage from 2nd gear, but I guess he gets to be right sometimes... :ashamed20:

Hi!
Not problem chiming in on an older thread. :) All info is good info!

My original problem turned out to be not having learned to use the clutch properly in my first MSF course. No problem with making sure I was in first - though I have since had one or two incidence of trying to leave a light while in neutral! LOL! Possible 2nd gear was one of the first things I checked out when I first noticed I was having problems. I could recreate the bucking and lugging quite easily and I still can if I want to demonstrate it to someone.

My problems with the bucking turned out to be two distinct problems:

1st was that I hadn't learned about using the clutch for slow maneuvers. In my first course, I didn't NEED to use the clutch that way because the little dirtbike I trained on didn't need to have the clutch pulled in to do the slow skills tests, I only used the throttle to control my speed. TOTALLY different than the ninja! I passed all of them without ever touching the clutch, just using the throttle for speed. Totally impossible on my ninja.

2nd was my reluctance to use a lot of throttle while doing nothing, like sitting at a light, doing a u turn. My particular bike needs to have the revs up for any and all low speed or no speed situations and maneuvers. That will be looked at in the spring at the shop. With my bike, I couldn't take my hand off the throttle at a light, my idle was turned up to about 2300 before it would behave. Not all ninjas are like that so I will get mine looked at but now that I'm finally riding, it won't get checked until I take it into the shop. I'll be shimming the carb needles in the spring too to help with that.

Otherwise, It was simply a matter of learning to always use the clutch while in low speeds. My first course was useless in that I got through the whole thing without anyone noticing that I never used the clutch except to brake and change gears but my second course was worth it's weight in gold - the instructors were all sportbike riders so when I told them the problem, they understood it right away and knew what to teach me right from the get-go.

Something that might help you if your bike is anything like mine with regards to it's unique personality,..:rolleyes:, mine makes a very subtle click sound when it goes into first from second. It doesn't make that sound when going from 3rd to 2nd. No click, I know it's not in first.

You don't need a mod, :) just plain ol' seat time will give you everything you need and by this time next year, you probably won't even recall being frustrated by this little issue.

BTW, I sometimes still have to rev the living bits out of it to get going on a hill or coming out of a parking lot that has a huge rise in the sidewalk.
In those instances, I can rev it as high as I want but with the clutch control, it just eases out of the low parts slow and smooth as butter. A few months ago, I seriously would have had to turn around or risk flying out of the parking lot like a bat out of hell.

Mmm, clutch control...mmm, it's such and amazing little thing but made my whole life easier!!

Ah yes, I know that click all too well! I'm sure I will get better with shifting/misshifting with more riding time (I got my ninj in September... just in time for fall, cold weather and daylight savings). I swear to god though, I stomp on the shifter and sometimes, that thing just won't go.

As far as clutch control, I was terrified that I wouldn't pass MSF because I couldn't get that straight, but I think I was just too wound up. On day two, it just "clicked". I do wish I had known to use second gear in the box though... and I would be interested to try the MSF skills on my 250 rather than a stinking Rebel... ;-)

Ah yes, I know that click all too well! I'm sure I will get better with shifting/misshifting with more riding time (I got my ninj in September... just in time for fall, cold weather and daylight savings). I swear to god though, I stomp on the shifter and sometimes, that thing just won't go.
So nice to see someone going through all the same stuff, eh? Until I found this site, I felt like I was the only one in the world with certain issues! LOL!

I think you should try the opposite next time you're out. Try a smoooottthhh shift, a very gentle click down??? Maybe it will work better. My instructors would wag their finger at anyone who stomped the shifter down. They kept reminding us, smooth and progressive actions and movements. Go slow to go fast etc.
Worth a try.

As far as clutch control, I was terrified that I wouldn't pass MSF because I couldn't get that straight, but I think I was just too wound up. On day two, it just "clicked". I do wish I had known to use second gear in the box though... and I would be interested to try the MSF skills on my 250 rather than a stinking Rebel... ;-)

I'm glad your course was so successful! :thumbup:
I took my first one on a KLX140 dirtbike, I didn't need to use the clutch at all other than shifting, I put it into first and only used the throttle on and off to get through all the drills. I don't think I was even told about using it for braking so my first day was purely stalling and getting bummed out. I finally asked another student.


This was the first course of the year so the regular instructors weren't there, it was taught by the people who normally teach experienced riders.
It was a disaster from the first minutes. Those instructors immediately disliked me because I mentioned that I'd like to take some courses from the professional track instructors someday. It seemed I offended them because all weekend long they kept making jokes about 'too bad they weren't "professional track" instructors.'

Ugh, depressing. I can now look back and be thankful that I said that because the problem WAS the instructors not teaching that I needed to use the clutch. It's funny they kept mentioning that their success rate was 97% yet five people out of 20 dropped out after the first day. One woman got hurt when she was dragged a bit after letting the brake off with the throttle up. She hadn't been taught about the clutch either. I hope to some day run into her so I can tell her that it wasn't her fault because I bet she gave up learning.

Two of the other people that dropped out had never driven a car or a motorcycle either so I'm guessing they had the same issue. At least the bike I was on didn't really need the clutchwork or I would have been kissing the ground on the first drill as well.

My next course (a different beginner course) was awesome. The instructors were patient and not insulting or condescending to the women. I'll be going back to them for the intermediate and the technical riding courses.

One of them even does track days where Ill be going to learn that. If we don't get the freezing rain tonight, I'll be going for a ride and I'm going to try to stomp down into first to see if I can recreate your issue. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast, it likes it nice and gentle?

Okay, now I'm blabbing....
ahh, I love my bike.:o

So nice to see someone going through all the same stuff, eh? Until I found this site, I felt like I was the only one in the world with certain issues! LOL!

I think you should try the opposite next time you're out. Try a smoooottthhh shift, a very gentle click down??? Maybe it will work better. My instructors would wag their finger at anyone who stomped the shifter down. They kept reminding us, smooth and progressive actions and movements. Go slow to go fast etc.
Worth a try.



I'm glad your course was so successful! :thumbup:

....

One of them even does track days where Ill be going to learn that. If we don't get the freezing rain tonight, I'll be going for a ride and I'm going to try to stomp down into first to see if I can recreate your issue. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast, it likes it nice and gentle?

Okay, now I'm blabbing....
ahh, I love my bike.:o

:D I only get to stomping if it has happened a few times in the same ride and I get frustrated, but I agree with you... smooth and steady. It's happening less and less, which ironically makes me more frustrated when I does happen... like I should have outgrown this already! :rolleyes:

I am hating our off and on cold/rainy weather, and I don't ride at night yet (makes me nervous, especially with a black bike) so my riding time is really limited to weekends, days off, or when I sneak out for a lunch break on days that I work from home. Serves me right for getting a bike in September. Practice makes perfect, right?

And I would not say that my MSF course went great... I was super stressed with one instructor that was very helpful, and another that was kind of a tool. My husband had the "tool" instructor (years prior) and really liked him, so I was even more frustrated and upset to come home to someone who was taking up for the instructor rather than understanding that everyone doesn't learn the same way. I'm VERY glad I took the course, but the set up was not really that conducive to my learning style. It was a really hot September day, my class was a hour away and started at 6:30am (NOT a morning person) and I was in a class of 12-15 people. I really needed more individual attention and far more practice time... but I spent half the class waiting for my turn. Then all of this anxiety would build up as you wait for your next turn, creating a lot of pressure to perform. I would have been better off: in the ladies only class, in a smaller class, or in a private class. After the first day at MSF on the range, I really had no confidence that I could be successful at this. Amazingly, on the Ninja, everything just felt RIGHT. I am thankful I didn't let anyone talk me into starting with a 600cc bike. I can't wait to learn to be a great rider on a great Ninja!

Lol!!

And I'm glad I didn't let the idiot at my dealership talk me into buying the Suzuki Burgman that he was trying to get me onto.

He said that I "wouldn't have to worry about learning that clutch-thingy"...:mad: Kind of a mentally patting me on the head. :rolleyes:
I should have kicked him in the knee but it was the only Kawi dealer so I shut up and just ignored his advice. Thank God!
Bergman's are sooooo ugly. Even for a scooter.

I'm buying a 600 for a track bike but I'm so happy with the ninja, I can't see ever needing something larger for a street bike. It does everything it's supposed to and it looks beeee-autiful.

I started riding at night because it was the only way I could get out onto my street without being rear-ended. :eek: Smallish town so sometimes at night, I don't see another soul for a half hour. Usually only police and taxis.
Now it's just become my preference. I have the dark blue ninja but my gear is black so if anyone is behind me, I make sure to do the brake flash and slight weave just in case. I also NEVER zoom through lights even when they're green. Just too many idiots that jump the yellow or run the reds at night. Not worth the risk.
Otherwise it's so peaceful and serene. Like I'm the only one left on the planet. And the ninja.:D