met up with this kid from school yesterday and we started to ride together. we went on some difficult roads and i did fine.

we then went to route one and I was having a blast, it was around 4:30 so it was rush hour. We were still going around 65mph and the car in front of my friend braked suddenly, i had a dealyed reaction because I wasn't being 100% alert and bam I brake suddenly and fall on my right side.

it happened so fast.

i have gloves and a jacket at home but it was 100 degrees + yesterday so I was like screw it.

atleast my helmet was on properly. i have pretty bad road rash all over my right arm, right knee, both palms, left shoulder, and right abdomen

when i fell i didn't feel anything, i brought my bike up to the side of the road and rested it against the divider, but 30 seconds later maybe due to the rapid blood loss i felt like i was going to pass out, and had to sit down. i was so embarassed and my friend called the ambulance for me.

they took me to the hospital and about 30 mins later gave me some morphine for the pain which didnt do ****


i consider my self really lucky for surviving but also very stupid.

how long do you think will it take for the road rash to heal?

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab157/UjaasG35/IMAG0025.jpg


http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab157/UjaasG35/IMAG0019.jpg

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab157/UjaasG35/IMAG0018.jpg
i'll try to get some pics

It will take longer than you think to heal up to where it doesn't hurt. Plus you will most likely have scars the rest of your life from it. Hope you learned your lesson from this and won't let that happen again. Glad you're alive and well enough to tell your story.

Don't know how long it'll take for your rash to heal, but this is the little patch of rash I received on a low-side on Memorial Day weekend this past May, no doctor's visits, just Neosporin as a treatment:

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4095/kneej.jpg

It took over a month to completely heal and I've still got a dark pink scar there. Given this, I'd bet yours will take much longer to heal.

Not going to lecture you or get on any ATGATT high-horse but please seriously consider that if it's too warm for you to gear up then maybe reconsider going for any real lengthy rides. Your family/friends will thank you. :)

Best wishes with a quick recovery.

SUX to learn things the hard way. :-( I'm sorry you were injured. Road rash, like burns, take quite a while to heal and usually scar. Speedy recovery!

I'll be the jerk...glad you're not dead...glad you fell...hope you learn something from this...that being ATGATT.

I see so many people ride without gear I just don't get it. I mean that's the first thing they teach you in the MSF course. Maybe the MSF course needs to start having their students jump off the motorcycle w/out any gear traveling 65 mph as part of their course.

Off topic but I love picking at my scabs! LOL!

Proving yet again that riding without gear doesn't hurt, CRASHING without gear does!

don't ride on days you're gonna crash. :thumbup:

I'll be the jerk...glad you're not dead...glad you fell...hope you learn something from this...that being ATGATT.

I see so many people ride without gear I just don't get it. I mean that's the first thing they teach you in the MSF course. Maybe the MSF course needs to start having their students jump off the motorcycle w/out any gear traveling 65 mph as part of their course.

Off topic but I love picking at my scabs! LOL!

At my MSF, the instructors never said anything more about gear than what they were required to read from the book. Several of the instructors said that they wish there were no helmet law in our state, and when riding through a state that does not require one, they take the helmet off.

they sound like idiots.

+1

Stupid instructor must ride a HD.

Hope you are feeling better....

There was a time on this forum when someone crashed for whatever reason...people would bark at them and become the "all mighty know it alls" (talking from experience as I have lowsided)- but now there's compassion.

I believe.... unlike others.... that crashing is part of riding a motorcycle.... eventually it is going to happen ......whether it is your fault, someone elses fault, the road's fault, the pothole's fault, the open man sewer's fault, the tire on your bike's fault, the oil on the road's fault, the crazy cager driving stupidly's fault, the rain's fault, the sleet's fault, the blinding sun's fault, the bee that enters your helmet's fault, the cager backing out of his/her driveway's fault, the target fixation's fault, the locking up the wheel's fault......but in the end it is part of riding a motorcycle....whether you like it or not. I know there are billions of people that haven't crashed- but this is my theory....my belief...my opinion and many will disagree or agree....it comes with the territory because of ALL the factors we have to deal with. We can control how we ride and the place we put ourselves in, but we cannot control ALL the other factors. And the list goes on and on and on.

If and when it does happen.....have the appropriate gear (like Kevin/Jeremy did when they lowsided) and learn from it.

Have a speedy recovery....let us know how you are doing. I still have chest pains when I take a deep breath after my lowside and that over a year ago. (Please no sympathy cards guys- it's much too late)

Last thing I always ask of people that have crashed...what could you have done to prevent this? This is where we get to learn.

Sorry to hear about your crash :(
Now, lets see some pics!

Adrian, I could not disagree more with your prior post. From its attitude, to what you think you learned from your crash, to the inevitability of having to crash to actually learn something.

A crash is a demonstration of bad judgment. There is no valid excuse for it, there is no explanation that makes everything OK, and doing so without gear is only further evidence that the rider isn't taking things seriously. Either they are ignorant of the risks, or they incorrectly choose to ignore the risks.

We all have free will and there's nobody on this forum or anywhere else that can "make" anyone choose anything other than what they prefer. But the whole point of this site is to make sure that people who choose to learn the proper way to go about this sport have an opportunity to do so.

There is no conflict between having empathy for people who have hurt themselves, and also thinking that they are completely clueless for having done so.

Hope you are feeling better....

There was a time on this forum when someone crashed for whatever reason...people would bark at them and become the "all mighty know it alls" (talking from experience as I have lowsided)- but now there's compassion.

I believe.... unlike others.... that crashing is part of riding a motorcycle.... eventually it is going to happen ......whether it is your fault, someone elses fault, the road's fault, the pothole's fault, the open man sewer's fault, the tire on your bike's fault, the oil on the road's fault, the crazy cager driving stupidly's fault, the rain's fault, the sleet's fault, the blinding sun's fault, the bee that enters your helmet's fault, the cager backing out of his/her driveway's fault, the target fixation's fault, the locking up the wheel's fault......but in the end it is part of riding a motorcycle....whether you like it or not. I know there are billions of people that haven't crashed- but this is my theory....my belief...my opinion and many will disagree or agree....it comes with the territory because of ALL the factors we have to deal with. We can control how we ride and the place we put ourselves in, but we cannot control ALL the other factors. And the list goes on and on and on.

If and when it does happen.....have the appropriate gear (like Kevin/Jeremy did when they lowsided) and learn from it.

Have a speedy recovery....let us know how you are doing. I still have chest pains when I take a deep breath after my lowside and that over a year ago. (Please no sympathy cards guys- it's much too late)

Last thing I always ask of people that have crashed...what could you have done to prevent this? This is where we get to learn.

Though I agree crashing is part of learning (in a safe environment)...that's not the point we're trying to make.

It's what we can do to minimize injuries in hopes that it will allow us to continue to enjoy this sport. Duh!

Adrian, I could not disagree more with your prior post. From its attitude, to what you think you learned from your crash, to the inevitability of having to crash to actually learn something.

A crash is a demonstration of bad judgment. There is no valid excuse for it, there is no explanation that makes everything OK, and doing so without gear is only further evidence that the rider isn't taking things seriously. Either they are ignorant of the risks, or they incorrectly choose to ignore the risks.

We all have free will and there's nobody on this forum or anywhere else that can "make" anyone choose anything other than what they prefer. But the whole point of this site is to make sure that people who choose to learn the proper way to go about this sport have an opportunity to do so.

There is no conflict between having empathy for people who have hurt themselves, and also thinking that they are completely clueless for having done so.

Alex this is what's great about any GOOD Forum...we can agree and disagree with one another. We can offer our own insight and opinions about such matters and do it in a respectful way.

What I'm looking for with this gentleman that crashed is what he can teach me about his mistake. Lesson 1 = ATGATT. We all have our 2 cents, we all have our opinions based on prior history in life...so to agree or disagree is always welcomed. I think emphathy goes a long way...he knows he made a mistake...he feels the pain of it...he'll always remember....and so what can he teach this forum? Crashing enlightens one to just how serious motorcycle riding is.

Though I agree crashing is part of learning (in a safe environment)...that's not the point we're trying to make.

It's what we can do to minimize injuries in hopes that it will allow us to continue to enjoy this sport. Duh!

Hence the respect part.....DUH!

Hence the respect part.....DUH!

I respect your "Duh!"ness!:p

:DThe apple and the tree baby

:DThe apple and the tree baby

:D

The chicken or the egg.

BTW, your canyon carving is not respectful to others on the road. :eek: :D :p

The chicken!!!

I apologize to everyone I offended and disrepected as I carved the canyon :thumbup:

Butt dammittt it was too much fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:p

The chicken!!!


I agree. :p



I apologize to everyone I offended and disrepected as I carved the canyon :thumbup:
Butt dammittt it was too much fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:p

Might just regret it even more as you lowside into oncoming traffic taking someone out or worst yet killing them in the process. But hey, you were just having fun, right? :rolleyes:

Hope you are feeling better....

There was a time on this forum when someone crashed for whatever reason...people would bark at them and become the "all mighty know it alls" (talking from experience as I have lowsided)- but now there's compassion.

I believe.... unlike others.... that crashing is part of riding a motorcycle.... eventually it is going to happen ......whether it is your fault, someone elses fault, the road's fault, the pothole's fault, the open man sewer's fault, the tire on your bike's fault, the oil on the road's fault, the crazy cager driving stupidly's fault, the rain's fault, the sleet's fault, the blinding sun's fault, the bee that enters your helmet's fault, the cager backing out of his/her driveway's fault, the target fixation's fault, the locking up the wheel's fault......but in the end it is part of riding a motorcycle....whether you like it or not. I know there are billions of people that haven't crashed- but this is my theory....my belief...my opinion and many will disagree or agree....it comes with the territory because of ALL the factors we have to deal with. We can control how we ride and the place we put ourselves in, but we cannot control ALL the other factors. And the list goes on and on and on.

If and when it does happen.....have the appropriate gear (like Kevin/Jeremy did when they lowsided) and learn from it.

Have a speedy recovery....let us know how you are doing. I still have chest pains when I take a deep breath after my lowside and that over a year ago. (Please no sympathy cards guys- it's much too late)

Last thing I always ask of people that have crashed...what could you have done to prevent this? This is where we get to learn.

Adrian, I could not disagree more with your prior post. From its attitude, to what you think you learned from your crash, to the inevitability of having to crash to actually learn something.

A crash is a demonstration of bad judgment. There is no valid excuse for it, there is no explanation that makes everything OK, and doing so without gear is only further evidence that the rider isn't taking things seriously. Either they are ignorant of the risks, or they incorrectly choose to ignore the risks.

We all have free will and there's nobody on this forum or anywhere else that can "make" anyone choose anything other than what they prefer. But the whole point of this site is to make sure that people who choose to learn the proper way to go about this sport have an opportunity to do so.

There is no conflict between having empathy for people who have hurt themselves, and also thinking that they are completely clueless for having done so.
Couldn't one take riding into a "one day or ride at a time" type of mentality the way some recovering addicts do? I've been told more about crashing and dropping my bike by people I know than about how much fun I'm going to have in my bike. If all we hear about is that you're going to fall and crash eventually then that is all that some people think about. Granted I've done things way out of the norm for my friends and family from back home and I'm still alive and doing great while others haven't been as lucky.

While I'm not a recovering addict of any kind, I do take things one at a time and it has helped me become safe and responsible. Everytime I've gotten on my bike I isolate myself and my thoughts to just this one ride. I think about every situation coming and I don't look to the future as I'm riding. By that I mean I don't think about what I'm going to do when I get to my destination but more about how I'm going to get there after this turn, after this stop light, after this car, after this driveway, so on. Maybe that's a mentality that more people need to have instead. I don't think it's impossible to never drop your bike, like I don't think it's impossible to ever be in a crash. I know it's not likely but it can be done.

Crashing enlightens one to just how serious motorcycle riding is.

Only if one is willing to learn. You talk a good game Adrian, but with video after video of trying to go ever faster on the same public roads with jeans covered in electrical tape, words only go so far. (EDIT: I hadn't seen KC's post about pads under the jeans, if so, mea culpa) When we have group rides that 2 out of 3 riders crash on, yet it's swept under the rug of "it happens to everybody", there remains a gap between what people are saying and what people are doing.

This can be a life-changing hobby, for better or worse. It frustrates people to see others get hurt. It frustrates people who see riders needlessly risk their own safety. It frustrates people who see riders encourage others to do the same, even if by omission ("everyone's free to choose whatever is right for them and there are no wrong decisions").

I hope the OP recovers quickly, and I hope that he makes different gear choices if he stays in the sport. I hope that the next time someone is trying to figure out what's appropriate to do/wear/ride/behave on a ride, they have the information they need from places like this to make informed decisions.

:(

For the record - it was duct tape "Gorilla" brand- so you know it is tough....(bad joke)

I hear you Alex....on the group rides issue...what you don't hear is my pep talk before the group ride and my actions during the group ride...so you can make judgements only from your perspective of "we went on a group ride and someone lowsided"....you do not see the before, in between and after. I cannot control riders and how they ride...especially all those that have lowsided have been BRAND new riders to some degree....so if you're blaming me for their mistakes...you're barking up the wrong tree....all I do is invite those to come out and ride some beautiful roads....and many have with me and have NOT lowsided...you only hear of the ones that have so makes me look like BAD...(I don't mind)

I take riding seriously....I'm working on finding pants that I want, but I keep running into comfort and style and so on....I'm very particular about pants and it's my own fault for getting so comfy in jeans....I tiried a few on and was like this sucks! I do wear icon knee gear under my jeans and the Icon vest...I have appropriate footwear, helmet, gloves, jacket and the #1 thing is that I ALWAYS think of my lowside when I ride...keeps me sane and focused...so if anyone would like to ship me a pair of riding pants that I can explore- I will pm you my address.

As for the public roads....it is not a good idea to do what I'm doing...flat out you are correct on that...I will not defend that one because there is no argument to it...except that I take it to the track....

BUT...just know that I do not attempt to go faster and faster....and that my goal is to look at my body position and learn from it. (probably shouldn't be doing this on public roads though)

Alex- if you'd like to talk more about the group rides and what happened- let me know...there's no "sweeping it under the rug"...ask away

I agree. :p




Might just regret it even more as you lowside into oncoming traffic taking someone out or worst yet killing them in the process. But hey, you were just having fun, right? :rolleyes:

The "fun" part was taken out of context...and yes.... touchet...it won't be any "fun"...I better not ride my moto anymore...because if it is not fun- why ride then??:noidea:

You are my nemesis...Nemesis :smash2:

This is turning out to be a great thread! I feakin' love it...so much learning going on!!!! I'm learning so much here everyone!!!! :thewave:

Alex is opening up....we are resolving some past issues...:grouphug:

Its easy to feeling invincible on the streets, even with a couple of minor accidents. You think worst case: some bruises, road rash, maybe a broken bone.

I went to see a friend of a friend last weekend. He is paralyzed from drifting in to oncoming traffic. Full gear, not speeding, not showboating, not a newbie. Just lost concentration. Its very sad seeing his atrophied legs, hearing how his life has changed.

You always hear, "take it to the track" but I know thats not an option for everyone.
If you are going to push it on the streets, at least:
1. Do a slow run looking for objects, road work, etc
2. No blind curves.
3. Good run off if you go down. Don't push the right hander unless you know for sure there are no oncoming cars.

1. Do a slow run first

+1!

so many incidences could be avoided with a sighting lap

I should add that I'm not judging anyone. A year ago, I was trying to blast through blind corners, unfamiliar roads, etc. I'm just really thankful that I only had one accident :rolleyes: on street and now I get my fill at the track.

updated pics lol

updated pics lol

OUCH!:eek:

aw thats not even bad. did you learn your lesson?

i know how big of an idiot i am. so embarassing. most of my friends were against me getting a bike in the firstplace.

i hope i have the corage to ride next year or maybe ill wait til im more mature

Prolly a good idea.

Holy crap...hope you heal up soon. That looks like it f***ing hurts

!!!!! :( Get well soon...

its really not bad just inconvenient as hell. but the daily cleaning stings like a mofo =/

dont feel sorry, just hope i can save a few ppl from my stupidity lol

AW I'M PRETTY SURE THAT HURTS LIKE HELL!!! D: REMINDS ME OF MY small road rash.... gawd... the pain... the agony... mine healed in 2 week, but I'm a fast healer.... anyway speedy recovery to you sir, and ride safe, I'm not even gonna point out that you need to gear up, cause I'm pretty sure you are gonna do that next time.

nah not yet they might prescrbe some 2mrrw. i just took 5mg of perk but i dont feel anything. never took pain killers b4

lol typing with one hand sucks

The "fun" part was taken out of context...and yes.... touchet...it won't be any "fun"...I better not ride my moto anymore...because if it is not fun- why ride then??:noidea:

You act as if you're the only one on the road. :rolleyes:


You are my nemesis...Nemesis :smash2:

Come do CVMA and I'll show you who your true Nemesis is. :p

Ujaas...feel better...that looks like it hurts!

Those images will be burned into my longterm motorcycle memory....thanks for sharing your story- it takes guts to put yourself out there. And thanks for reminding ME that motorcycling is to be taken seriously while having fun at the same time.

at least you'll have some cool scars to show the kids.
honestly though the pain of injuries is something you remember even after the evidence of them is gone. i remember all of my serious injuries. i remember exactly why they happened. and i remember the events leading up to them very well. all of my major injuries (on and off bikes) seem to be scarred not only on my body but into my mind. i don't do the things that led up to all of my major injuries now because of them. scars are natures way of helping you remember not to make poor choices.

hope you have a speedy recovery and get back on the bike asap... btw how is the bike?

You act as if you're the only one on the road. :rolleyes:



Come do CVMA and I'll show you who your true Nemesis is. :p


Apple Nemeis....My wife just laughed at your post...move on!

Apple Nemeis....My wife just laughed at your post...move on!

Chicken. :p

My wife just laughed at your post

pics or it didn't happen! :D:p

pics or it didn't happen! :D:p

+1

Need a good laugh.:D

updated pics lol


There is nothing there anymore :confused:

Chicken. :p

she said try this hat on.... :asshat:



Meet me at Thunder Road- we'll race for pinks Crater Face! :rotflmao:

Thank you for posting this and including pictures. It is a good reminder that we should never be complacent.

I wish you a fast recovery!

Man, I really feel for you. Take care of yourself and feel better. I guess no one knows better than you now about the importance of gear, but I wanted to mention that I live in the tropics with heat index over 100 all the time -- I honestly think with light colored, breathable gear I'm cooler than if I were gearless because I keep the sun off and the wind keeps coming through.

Good luck, hope the healing happens quickly and you are back up and riding soon.

she said try this hat on.... :asshat:


Nice pic of your wife. I'll definitely sport it if I haven't already. :eek: :p

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/images/smilies/custom_smilies/rotflmao.gif

You should be so lucky to have a woman like mine- "Nemesis" :wobble:

Nemeis....Is that your pole dancing name?:rotflmao:

Now...welcome to the stage all the way from Thunder Road....Nemesis!:rapture:


Do you call yourself Nemesis because you're "cool"? :cool:

the saying i always hear is: theres two kinds of riders; those who have gone down, and those who havent gone down... YET.

i high sided my bike a few months ago downshifting into a turn. i was wearing my jacket and helmet and gloves, but just jeans and wound up twisting my ankle pretty bad and getting a nice patch of road rash on my rt knee. when it happened i was more worried about my bikes damage than anything else, as i hobbled to pick it up. it took a while for the rash to heal and i still have a nice purple-ish scar on my knee. i was doing 40-45mph when it happened so i guess i was lucky i didnt do more damage to myself or my bike (broken turn signal, small rash on fairing). i realize it could have been much worse. it was at nite so no traffic was on the road around me.

consider this your "lucky" fall. it might not seem like it or feel like it, but considering the circumstances (no gear, lapse in concentration) you did WALK away. others have not been so lucky.

im glad your still with us and will live to ride another day. hope you heal quick brother.

adri99an, Nemesis... you two are really a pair...

*fight fight fight fight!*

i think you guys should race for honor... and women. road-rash rules. but no spiked clubs, only chains and nunchucka. loony-toons style round fused bombs are cool too...

LOL

It's all good. LOL

Tell you what Andrea, meet me @ GMR tomorrow @ 9 and we'll race for pinks.

Why does she call himself "NEMESIS"?

You're either
1) a Greek Roman goddess????

2) a hypothetical hard-to-detect red dwarf star, white dwarf star or brown dwarf, orbiting the Sun?????

3) a Geek that named himself after a Star Trek movie????

4) a formidable and usually victorious rival or opponent
(can't be this that's for sure)

I'm going to go with #3 on this one??

GMR- tomorrow- me and you- winner has to pole dance to a Lady Ga Ga song and youtube it for Ninjette.org. Alex will video tape it! :leghump: (not alex.s)

It is ALL Good! Just having fun man- you're cracking me up!!! :jumping40:

Why does she call himself "NEMESIS"?

You're either
1) a Greek Roman goddess????

2) a hypothetical hard-to-detect red dwarf star, white dwarf star or brown dwarf, orbiting the Sun?????

3) a Geek that named himself after a Star Trek movie????

4) a formidable and usually victorious rival or opponent
(can't be this that's for sure)

I'm going to go with #3 on this one??

GMR- tomorrow- me and you- winner has to pole dance to a Lady Ga Ga song and youtube it for Ninjette.org. Alex will video tape it! :leghump: (not alex.s)

It is ALL Good! Just having fun man- you're cracking me up!!! :jumping40:

:popcorn:

don't ride on days you're gonna crash. :thumbup:

As awkward as that may sound there can be some slight truth to it!

LOL

It's all good. LOL

Tell you what Andrea, meet me @ GMR tomorrow @ 9 and we'll race for pinks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8F5WzwZ_Mg

Here's the vid from yesterday's GMR run....it was a slow run.....that turn at 6:00 min- freakin' amazing public road!!!!!


Nemesis......thanks for the pm....I think????

You got lucky if that is all you got from a drop at 65 mph. I've been scratched up that bad when I was younger from a lot less speed on bikes and skateboards.

Be careful out there and I wish you a quick recovery.

omg... and i thought my road rash was painfull... thats one on your right arm is Epicly big! a friend had almost the same sized rash from his shoulder down to his elbow... slid out on gravel driving down to the beach in nothing but his board shorts, :cool:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/wayanlam/Jl%20Mertanadi%20crash%202011/P1030923_resize-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/wayanlam/Jl%20Mertanadi%20crash%202011/P1030918_resize.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/wayanlam/Jl%20Mertanadi%20crash%202011/P1030917_resize.jpg

i had my mesh riding jacket on, and it saved my elbows and arms SO SO much... but i was too lazy to put on my gloves (sat in the tank bag, lol) so i paid that off with some skin loss on the palms. was lucky on the legs, just that rash on the knee. but that took a while to heal up due to the skin always flexing and disturbing the scab...

rest at home to recover, you don't want that to get infected, use the time to get 5000 post counts, lol

GL on the recovery. just be greatfull that you did not get head trauma, or worse...

need some advice guys..

need to get my wounds dressed.. went to my pediatrician yesterday (im 18 almost 19 i know i should switch to a big boy doctor now) and that bitch said she couldnt do anything.. i have to go back to an ER.. shes so lazy

i called ER and they said your doctor should handle it

i called other real doctors in the area and they're all closed on weekends and one said go to the ER, they dont do dressing

I don't know what to do. The ER said they'll do it today thank god.

also what should I use? ER gave me bacitricin

online i've been reading tegaderm and silvedene are the best

also im going on a long flight in 4-5 days. don't know if i'll be good by then =/

also i got 5mg percocet but it doesn't do anything. i take one every 4 hours
should i ask for a higher dosage?

Sorry about the accident and the repercussions - don't have any advice on the proper way to dress wounds, I just use Neosporin which I'm sure is the non-profressional product of choice - or maybe just "pour sum Tussin over it"? :eyebrows:

To be honest, I ride without gear most of the time in the summer months.

I know better not to take more risks than I'm willing to put into the riding.

IMO: gear/helmets are optional, but you have to have the judgment not to take the unnecessary risks, like aggressive riding in areas that you are not familiar with.. or just look ahead a few vehicles every few seconds.

For your wounds: look up 'Second skin', they are somewhat expensive, but very effective and accelerate healing.

To be honest, I ride without gear most of the time in the summer months.

I know better not to take more risks than I'm willing to put into the riding.

IMO: gear/helmets are optional, but you have to have the judgment not to take the unnecessary risks, like aggressive riding in areas that you are not familiar with.. or just look ahead a few vehicles every few seconds.

For your wounds: look up 'Second skin', they are somewhat expensive, but very effective and accelerate healing.

skydiving without a parachute is also optional.

To be honest, I ride without gear most of the time in the summer months.

I know better not to take more risks than I'm willing to put into the riding.

IMO: gear/helmets are optional, but you have to have the judgment not to take the unnecessary risks, like aggressive riding in areas that you are not familiar with.. or just look ahead a few vehicles every few seconds.

For your wounds: look up 'Second skin', they are somewhat expensive, but very effective and accelerate healing.

I got news for ya, doesn't matter how safe you try to ride, you can still have an accident. That is why you never take that chance. Otherwise if you ride with gear the only thing to accept is that you are riding at a much higher risk to injury and death, nothing else. You have to remember you don't control 100% of what goes on around you. That is why you should ALWAYS drive/ride defensively as if the world is out to get you, cause sometimes it just is.

IMO there is NEVER an excuse for being out on the street on a motorcycle w/o your gear on. But that's just me personally.

After seeing those pictures, today will be the last day that I don't own proper riding pants. :thumbup:

I got news for ya, doesn't matter how safe you try to ride, you can still have an accident. That is why you never take that chance. Otherwise if you ride with gear the only thing to accept is that you are riding at a much higher risk to injury and death, nothing else. You have to remember you don't control 100% of what goes on around you. That is why you should ALWAYS drive/ride defensively as if the world is out to get you, cause sometimes it just is.

IMO there is NEVER an excuse for being out on the street on a motorcycle w/o your gear on. But that's just me personally.

No denying, but majority of riders in the world do not ride with a helmet, accidents do occur with or without gear, but a cautious rider would have less accident occur to him/her regardless whether or not he/she has gear on.

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/24032011_overloaded/overloaded_017.jpg


Never taking a chance, then we'd never leave the house.

Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one, all of them stink.. no argue with fact though.

skydiving without a parachute is also optional.

It may be optional if you're suicidal... but majority of skydivers in the world do not jump out of a plane without a chute.

No denying, but majority of riders in the world do not ride with a helmet, accidents do occur with or without gear, but a cautious rider would have less accident occur to him/her regardless whether or not he/she has gear on.

a large percentage of the world also doesn't have access to clean drinking water, sanitary waste disposal, or food everyday. does that mean its ok for me to drink from a puddle on the ground?

being a cautious driver doesn't effect how badly you're injured when the inevitable happens. wearing gear does.

Guy with kids in above pic has just about screwed himself out of a place to ride on his bike.

No denying, but majority of riders in the world do not ride with a helmet, accidents do occur with or without gear, but a cautious rider would have less accident occur to him/her regardless whether or not he/she has gear on.

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/24032011_overloaded/overloaded_017.jpg


Never taking a chance, then we'd never leave the house.

Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one, all of them stink.. no argue with fact though.



It may be optional if you're suicidal... but majority of skydivers in the world do not jump out of a plane without a chute.

Is that a 600?

But seriously...here's why we wear gear

Another member Kaiser6 (sp.?) posted this link....Graphic!!!!!!!


http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=105585

New riders often don't understand that when it gets that hot, it is actually cooler INSIDE your gear... unless you are sitting still for a long time. Also, aside from the obvious benefits of going down with gear, keep in mind the hot asphault will cook you like an egg. I have heard stories of parametics moving people before they otherwise felt comfortable, to prevent further burns.... this is in addition to rash.

a large percentage of the world also doesn't have access to clean drinking water, sanitary waste disposal, or food everyday. does that mean its ok for me to drink from a puddle on the ground?

Poor analogy, drinking water is not an option to sustain your life, but a necessity.
Wearing a gear while riding is an option.

being a cautious driver doesn't effect how badly you're injured when the inevitable happens. wearing gear does.

Being cautious affect whether or not a person gets into an accident or avoiding accidents means that there is not injury to sustain.

Bottom line is, wearing gear alone do not make you any more cautious as a rider to avoid accidents, more than likely, one is more willing to take risks when geared up.

Good point! Take that alex s!!! Hahahahaaaa!!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

Poor analogy, drinking water is not an option to sustain your life, but a necessity.
Wearing a gear while riding is an option.



Being cautious affect whether or not a person gets into an accident or avoiding accidents means that there is not injury to sustain.

Bottom line is, wearing gear alone do not make you any more cautious as a rider to avoid accidents, more than likely, one is more willing to take risks when geared up.

i'm sorry that you feel gear makes people ride recklessly. i have another understanding of it.

what's the definition of the word "accident"? do you honestly believe being cautious means you have 100% control over your situation? never seen black ice? how about freak mechanical failures? how about a car with a blowout flying across the road from the other lane? what about blind intersections and drunken speeding red-light runners? never experienced it? i have. luckily i was in a van when we were hit from a blind intersection by a truck with a drunk driver doing 80mph in a 35 zone through a red light. since then i will never take for granted the FACT that you do not control your environment, you respond to it. do you really think that because you're cautious you can prevent every situation that will lead to a downed rider? even if you're an extremely skilled rider and can respond to most situations extremely well, you can't respond to every situation perfectly. there will always be something waiting for you.

if you believe that there is a chance you can go down, why would you put your skin and life on the line by not protecting yourself? or is it that you don't believe there's a chance because you're "too good of a rider to be involved in an accident"?

show me a rider with more than 100k miles on 2-wheels who has not been in some form of an accident. please. i would genuinely love to see it and i have many questions for them.


as to you saying my analogy is invalid. you do have the option of not drinking water, just like you have the option of not wearing gear. the point that i was making is that eventually, both will kill you.

But seriously...here's why we wear gear

Another member Kaiser6 (sp.?) posted this link....Graphic!!!!!!!


http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=105585


Um, wow, yeah, thanks for the warning. THose were quite graphic, but great reminders of why we gear up.

i'm sorry that you feel gear makes people ride recklessly. i have another understanding of it.

:nono:That's not what I said, please read more carefully.

what's the definition of the word "accident"? do you honestly believe being cautious means you have 100% control over your situation? never seen black ice? how about freak mechanical failures? how about a car with a blowout flying across the road from the other lane? what about blind intersections and drunken speeding red-light runners? never experienced it? i have. luckily i was in a van when we were hit from a blind intersection by a truck with a drunk driver doing 80mph in a 35 zone through a red light. since then i will never take for granted the FACT that you do not control your environment, you respond to it. do you really think that because you're cautious you can prevent every situation that will lead to a downed rider? even if you're an extremely skilled rider and can respond to most situations extremely well, you can't respond to every situation perfectly. there will always be something waiting for you.

A cautious rider may avoid riding in weather that have potential 'black ice'.
:nono:I never said that being cautious can avoid every accident, but better chance than not being cautious for sure.
Sure there will always something waiting for you maybe, but I know enough not to get myself into accidents.

if you believe that there is a chance you can go down, why would you put your skin and life on the line by not protecting yourself? or is it that you don't believe there's a chance because you're "too good of a rider to be involved in an accident"?

I don't plan to go down ever during my rides, by being cautious and not taking risks beyond my preparedness.

show me a rider with more than 100k miles on 2-wheels who has not been in some form of an accident. please. i would genuinely love to see it and i have many questions for them.

I've logged over 100,000 miles on 2-wheel in the last 6 years without an accident.
What questions do you have?

as to you saying my analogy is invalid. you do have the option of not drinking water, just like you have the option of not wearing gear. the point that i was making is that eventually, both will kill you.

:nono:I did not say your analogy is 'invalid', just that it is an poor analogy, please read more carefully.
More riders in this world never wore helmet in their life and manage to live on without killing themselves, but no one can survive without drinking water for more than 24 hours.:smile-drink4:

A cautious rider may avoid riding in weather that have potential 'black ice'.


ok so you only ride when it's perfect out. how about those of us who only ride? it's not always perfect out. are you saying "tough luck" if its damp or cold?


:nono:I never said that being cautious can avoid every accident, but better chance than not being cautious for sure.


how do you say that not wearing any gear is being cautious? it seems flagrantly dangerous to me. the definition of caution: care taken to avoid danger. not wearing gear seems to be the exact opposite of that.


Sure there will always something waiting for you maybe, but I know enough not to get myself into accidents.


you know enough to control the actions of others?


I don't plan to go down ever during my rides, by being cautious and not taking risks beyond my preparedness.


does anyone plan on going down?


I've logged over 100,000 miles on 2-wheel in the last 6 years without an accident.
What questions do you have?


maybe this deserves another thread...

1) where do you typically ride?
2) what type of bike do you do most of your riding on? you said many different bikes, all sport bikes? could you please elaborate a little?
3) you said you only ride in good weather... do you not ride if there's even a remote chance of bad weather?
4) how long of trips do you usually take?
5) what are the road conditions/quality that you do most of your riding on?
6) do you plan all your routes? based on specific factors? such as car encounters, road quality, etc?
7) what kind of bike preperation do you do? i know some people who tune their suspension frequently, others who don't touch it
8) do you do all your own maintenance/repair work?
9) how often do you encounter issues with your bikes? as in broken/failed parts?
10) what type of training have you had? self taught? ever go to the track?
11) what type of tools/items do you bring with you when you ride? do you keep them in/on the bike?
12) what type of storage do you use? tailbags? backpacks?
13) do you ever "open her up"? or is all of your riding low pace?
14) what do you think about lean angle? do you try to keep less angle?

edit: one more question... i've been hit by a car and i'm wondering what your suggestions would have been to prevent it. i was making a left hand turn in a double turn lane, i was in the right lane of the two, the car in front next to me hit the gas fast out of the turn, i was taking it casually, then he decided to slam on the brakes directly after the turn. i was behind him by about a car length and the car behind him which also seemed to be in quite a hurry, instead of hitting the brakes, cranked the wheel to the right, hitting me on the side. i tried to steer to the right and hit the brakes at the same time, but couldn't get the bike out of the way in time. was on the 250 so there was no way of escaping with gas. even if i was on my 600 i doubt there would have been time. she hit me on the side, then ran. how would you have prevented it?


no one can survive without drinking water for more than 24 hours.:smile-drink4:

actually it takes about 2-3 days of not drinking water before your kidnees begin to fail. from there it takes between 2-6 days for you to actually die depending on a variety of factors like humidity, temperature, starting health, weight, body fat content, etc... unfortunately i've had both kidnees fail due to dehydration over the course of 7 days and almost lost them... but that's kinda getting off point now...

ok so you only ride when it's perfect out. how about those of us who only ride? it's not always perfect out. are you saying "tough luck" if its damp or cold?

:nono: I never said that, for the third time, please read more carefully.

how do you say that not wearing any gear is being cautious? it seems flagrantly dangerous to me. the definition of caution: care taken to avoid danger. not wearing gear seems to be the exact opposite of that.

:nono: I never said that, please read more carefully, one more time you're going on the ignore list.
OP was taking more risks than he know he should without gear in unfamiliar territory.
One can be very cautious without gear, vice versa, one can wear all the gear and not be cautious at all.


you know enough to control the actions of others?

No, but I've ridden on public roads enough to be exposed to many stupid drivers and can predict more possible outcomes than those who have not.

does anyone plan on going down?

Most likely, more than you think.. I spend more time planning for ways out of possible accidents.

maybe this deserves another thread...

1) where do you typically ride?
2) what type of bike do you do most of your riding on? you said many different bikes, all sport bikes? could you please elaborate a little?
3) you said you only ride in good weather... do you not ride if there's even a remote chance of bad weather?
4) how long of trips do you usually take?
5) what are the road conditions/quality that you do most of your riding on?
6) do you plan all your routes? based on specific factors? such as car encounters, road quality, etc?
7) what kind of bike preperation do you do? i know some people who tune their suspension frequently, others who don't touch it
8) do you do all your own maintenance/repair work?
9) how often do you encounter issues with your bikes? as in broken/failed parts?
10) what type of training have you had? self taught? ever go to the track?


Maybe you should take a look at my photo album, that'll give you some ideas, where/how I ride.

I've been working on bikes & motorcycles for over two decades.

I've pedaled coast to coast on 2-wheel, twice since my teenage years, ride about 2000-4000 miles annually on my bicycles in every kind of weather.

I buy & sell used motorcycles ten to a dozen times a year, fix up abused/damaged/salvaged motorcycles and sell them at a profit.

I do most if not all the mechanical work myself.

I've ridden motorcycles coast to coast 7 times, I ride from Philadelphia, PA to Ann Arbor, MI at least once a year since 2002 to visit family.

I used to ride on the track, participate in race weekends, but financial they do not seem practical to me, so I have not been on the track since 2007.

I do not plan my route, but I do carry a GPS on my motorcycles and I've used it long enough to judge my corner entry speed according to the display on my GPS.

11) what type of tools/items do you bring with you when you ride? do you keep them in/on the bike?
12) what type of storage do you use? tailbags? backpacks?
13) do you ever "open her up"? or is all of your riding low pace?

Answers differs from ride to ride, if I'm riding 2 mi. away to the store to pick up something to eat, I wouldn't carry much any tools vs riding in the woods or long pavement trips.
I 'open her up' on most every ride, just some vehicle I own only does 30 mph when 'opened up'.

I've worked as a bicycle messenger in Seattle, WA, San Francisco, CA, NYC, Philadelphia, PA.
I've a limousine driver's license since I was in college.
I've graduated from BMW driving school in 2006.

14) what do you think about lean angle? do you try to keep less angle?

Every time I corner I lean differently than previous, depending on my preparation, road surface condition, weather condition and my mental state. Consideration are many, but most have become implicit memory that I don't need to 'think' about when I ride.

edit: one more question... i've been hit by a car and i'm wondering what your suggestions would have been to prevent it. i was making a left hand turn in a double turn lane, i was in the right lane of the two, the car in front next to me hit the gas fast out of the turn, i was taking it casually, then he decided to slam on the brakes directly after the turn. i was behind him by about a car length and the car behind him which also seemed to be in quite a hurry, instead of hitting the brakes, cranked the wheel to the right, hitting me on the side. i tried to steer to the right and hit the brakes at the same time, but couldn't get the bike out of the way in time. was on the 250 so there was no way of escaping with gas. even if i was on my 600 i doubt there would have been time. she hit me on the side, then ran. how would you have prevented it?

Following too close sounded like your mistake. 'a car length behind' as you said, allow you less than 12-14 ft. of following distance, which is less than the distance you need to stop from 25 mph to 0 mph.
Allow more following distance, and look for ways out of impact instead of grabbing a fistful of brakes when you 1st spot trouble. Combination of steering and braking at the same time is what did you in. Brake reduce your available traction, turning direction require more available traction.. likelihood of doom is high when you combine the two.


actually it takes about 2-3 days of not drinking water before your kidnees begin to fail. from there it takes between 2-6 days for you to actually die depending on a variety of factors like humidity, temperature, starting health, weight, body fat content, etc... unfortunately i've had both kidnees fail due to dehydration over the course of 7 days and almost lost them... but that's kinda getting off point now...

Sounds to me like you should drink water more often, if you already have your kidneys fail, you should take care of your health, too.
I may be wrong about 24 hr time frame, but I'm not dumb enough to find out with my own body. I live an active lifestyle, I drink water whether I need it or not, but helmet is optional for my lifestyle, especially in the shower.

Dont know if you got it taken care of yet, but when I had rash on my arm I just cut the end of a tube sock off and slipped it on my arm.

P.S. If you do this dont use a sock with a lot of fuzzy stuff inside cause it will stick to your wounds as they heal (ask how I know).

Following too close sounded like your mistake. 'a car length behind' as you said, allow you less than 12-14 ft. of following distance, which is less than the distance you need to stop from 25 mph to 0 mph.
Allow more following distance, and look for ways out of impact instead of grabbing a fistful of brakes when you 1st spot trouble. Combination of steering and braking at the same time is what did you in. Brake reduce your available traction, turning direction require more available traction.. likelihood of doom is high when you combine the two.


maybe you didn't read what i wrote fully, there was noone in front of me, the car distance was how far the car was to the left of me that slammed on their brakes. there was also a wall to the right with no space to escape. getting to the far right of the right lane (where i was) and braking seemed to be the only option and i was still hit when the car to my left cranked the wheel to the right. maybe you can revise your suggestion on how you would have avoided it? maybe you might suggest if i was full gun off the line and maintained myself in front? the road conditions there weren't really appropriate, not the best asphalt so i'm not sure that would be a good idea.

one more question which i'm not sure has been answered, how much gear do you wear? i'm not talking about a sandwich run, but when going cross country for example.


Sounds to me like you should drink water more often, if you already have your kidneys fail, you should take care of your health, too.
I may be wrong about 24 hr time frame, but I'm not dumb enough to find out with my own body. I live an active lifestyle, I drink water whether I need it or not, but helmet is optional for my lifestyle, especially in the shower.

no kidding. it was an extreme circumstance. allergic reaction caused me to throw up or heave about every few minutes which made it impossible for me to keep anything down, not to mention water (which i did try to drink) and no doctors (which means no possibility of IVs) around until we got back.

"a", i guess what i'm trying to say here is that when you make comments like "gear is optional" and "gear makes people more willing to take risks" it sounds like you're encouraging people to ride without gear. obviously you ride with gear. so it makes me wonder why you would encourage such a thing, if you actually are?

like you agreed with, you can't prevent all accidents, so why would you say it's ok to take the chance of losing your skin when you can prevent it? if that's not what you're saying, what are you saying? please, enlighten us.

It's always hilarious to read/hear what people have to say to try and justify why they ride without gear with reasoning besides "I just don't feel like it".

It's always hilarious to read/hear what people have to say to try and justify why they ride without gear with reasoning besides "I just don't feel like it".

SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!:boink:

alex and "A" are having a great debate!:fencing:

maybe you didn't read what i wrote fully, there was noone in front of me, the car distance was how far the car was to the left of me that slammed on their brakes. there was also a wall to the right with no space to escape. getting to the far right of the right lane (where i was) and braking seemed to be the only option and i was still hit when the car to my left cranked the wheel to the right. maybe you can revise your suggestion on how you would have avoided it? maybe you might suggest if i was full gun off the line and maintained myself in front? the road conditions there weren't really appropriate, not the best asphalt so i'm not sure that would be a good idea.


Those were your words:
i was behind him by about a car length
Does that mean there were no car in front of you?
Are you changing your story as you go?
Are you sure you were in the right state of mind to remember everything that happened?
Maybe you should just post the police report here.

one more question which i'm not sure has been answered, how much gear do you wear? i'm not talking about a sandwich run, but when going cross country for example.

How much gear I wear depends on the ride that I'm doing, coast to coast ride that is non-stop will require different gear than taking my time visiting friends & family.


no kidding. it was an extreme circumstance. allergic reaction caused me to throw up or heave about every few minutes which made it impossible for me to keep anything down, not to mention water (which i did try to drink) and no doctors (which means no possibility of IVs) around until we got back.

Sounds like you don't know your body very well and allowed yourself to become in contact with whatever you're allergic to.


"a", i guess what i'm trying to say here is that when you make comments like "gear is optional" and "gear makes people more willing to take risks" it sounds like you're encouraging people to ride without gear. obviously you ride with gear. so it makes me wonder why you would encourage such a thing, if you actually are?

Is that your opinion or is that a fact?

I ride with gear when I feel the need to,

I ride without gear when I know I do not take unnecessary risks and be cautious of my surroundings.

I don't advocate riding without gear, but I don't badger people who make their choice not to wear gear neither.

I don't like self-righteous people who think their way is the only way.

I state what I do, what works for me and let people decide for themselves what they should do.

like you agreed with, you can't prevent all accidents, so why would you say it's ok to take the chance of losing your skin when you can prevent it? if that's not what you're saying, what are you saying? please, enlighten us.

I never said I could prevent all accident, that's the last draw; you're on the ignore list now.

Those were your words:

Does that mean there were no car in front of you?
Are you changing your story as you go?
Are you sure you were in the right state of mind to remember everything that happened?
Maybe you should just post the police report here.



How much gear I wear depends on the ride that I'm doing, coast to coast ride that is non-stop will require different gear than taking my time visiting friends & family.




Sounds like you don't know your body very well and allowed yourself to become in contact with whatever you're allergic to.




Is that your opinion or is that a fact?

I ride with gear when I feel the need to,

I ride without gear when I know I do not take unnecessary risks and be cautious of my surroundings.

I don't advocate riding without gear, but I don't badger people who make their choice not to wear gear neither.

I don't like self-righteous people who think their way is the only way.

I state what I do, what works for me and let people decide for themselves what they should do.



I never said I could prevent all accident, that's the last draw; you're on the ignore list now.

alex..... I think "A" just sucked the blood out of you.....

:rotflmao: he sure sucked something out of me

I bet it was quick since you're on the throttle FAST:leghump:

:rotflmao: he sure sucked something out of me

When you can't debate, change topic to something totally unrelated.
Good sign of your intelligence. :thumbup:

When you can't debate, change topic to something totally unrelated.
Good sign of your intelligence. :thumbup:

oh thats funny, i had thought you "ignored me"? sure sign of intelligence to refuse to listen to someone you disagree with.

maybe if you would actually read what i said originally you would see what i wrote.

:pop2::pepsi-gif::peep:
I'm trolling

+1

Stupid instructor must ride a HD.

+1

Don't you know? Harleys have an aura of invincibility!

SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!:boink:

alex and "A" are having a great debate!:fencing:

OH! ....carry on.....I didn't say anything....:whistle: :whistle:

I'm glad you lived to tell the tale. I'm only MOTGATT and wouldn't go any less. My brother is part of a "stunters" mc and well, let's just say they don't have the same type of policy. I wished my brother would wise up, but he's dumb like that.

they sound like idiots.

They told us jeans would be good enough protection for a crash... my cousin said otherwise when they were picking denim out of his melted ass... :mad: The MSF course is very biased when it comes to gear. We spent less than 10 minutes talking about it. They said buy a jacket for winter because it's cold and buy a helmet bc it is illegal to not have one. Idiots indeed.

Sorry to hear about your crash man, just don't be like my buddy and keep hoping back on with no gear. You are better off betting you'll crash again, so prepare for it, wear that gear you spent your hard-earned cash on!

Glad to hear you are ok though, have a speedy recovery sir! :thumbup:

i'm sorry that you feel gear makes people ride recklessly. i have another understanding of it.

what's the definition of the word "accident"? do you honestly believe being cautious means you have 100% control over your situation? never seen black ice? how about freak mechanical failures? how about a car with a blowout flying across the road from the other lane? what about blind intersections and drunken speeding red-light runners? never experienced it? i have. luckily i was in a van when we were hit from a blind intersection by a truck with a drunk driver doing 80mph in a 35 zone through a red light. since then i will never take for granted the FACT that you do not control your environment, you respond to it. do you really think that because you're cautious you can prevent every situation that will lead to a downed rider? even if you're an extremely skilled rider and can respond to most situations extremely well, you can't respond to every situation perfectly. there will always be something waiting for you.

if you believe that there is a chance you can go down, why would you put your skin and life on the line by not protecting yourself? or is it that you don't believe there's a chance because you're "too good of a rider to be involved in an accident"?

show me a rider with more than 100k miles on 2-wheels who has not been in some form of an accident. please. i would genuinely love to see it and i have many questions for them.


as to you saying my analogy is invalid. you do have the option of not drinking water, just like you have the option of not wearing gear. the point that i was making is that eventually, both will kill you.

He didn't say gear makes people ride more recklessly, he said more gear makes people more willing to take risks. there is a difference, recklessness is without a care to results or consequences, whereas when you take a risk you understand the risk involved. When people get a lot of gear they sometimes operate on the logic that since they are protected, now they can take risks because the risk of injury is worth the thrill if nothing happens. I've had friends tell me that they want to get a one-piece leather, boots, and an expensive helmet before they do the US129 dragon because it is too unsafe to do it without that stuff (do I agree with logic? no.), that is assessing a risk and taking it. If they just did the dragon and were driving crazy under the impression that nothing will happen bc they don't care to think about it, that would be reckless.

Just sayin', just sounds like you are putting words in people's mouths.

I think the idea A is presenting here is that one would rather ride passenger seat gearless with a cautious person driving, rather than having full gear with a risky person driving. Gear will only protect you so much, one of my friends is an EMT and he told me when I got my bike that out of all the motorcycle accidents he's come across, a helmet only saved one person over 60mph; unless you wanna wear one of these, http://images.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/300/2009-Leatt-Moto-GPX-Club-Neck-Brace.jpg, it wont make too much difference whether you have a helmet on or not because the impact is gonna shatter your C-spine into pieces; and if that happens and by the grace of God you are not dead, you will be paralyzed for the rest of your life. Btw he has been an EMT ever since I was a little kid. So i'm sure he's seen his fair share of motorcyclist accidents.

You have true, valid points Alex, that doesn't mean that A is wrong though. Same goes to A. But that is just my opinion I suppose

He didn't say gear makes people ride more recklessly, he said more gear makes people more willing to take risks. there is a difference, recklessness is without a care to results or consequences, whereas when you take a risk you understand the risk involved. When people get a lot of gear they sometimes operate on the logic that since they are protected, now they can take risks because the risk of injury is worth the thrill if nothing happens. I've had friends tell me that they want to get a one-piece leather, boots, and an expensive helmet before they do the US129 dragon because it is too unsafe to do it without that stuff (do I agree with logic? no.), that is assessing a risk and taking it. If they just did the dragon and were driving crazy under the impression that nothing will happen bc they don't care to think about it, that would be reckless.


po-tay-to, po-ta-toe.

the fact is we're talking about two seperate things;
a) taking risky maneuvers on a motorcycle and,
b) trying to minimize reprecussions of an accident by wearing gear.

they're often times positively correlated, but the fact is, they are seperate issues. people drive dangerously with and without gear. but people will always reduce potential injuries they may encounter (whether or not they are taking risks) by wearing proper gear. you don't have to be taking risks to have someone fly through a blind red light. you don't have to be taking risks to have someone make a left hand turn into you. you don't have to be taking risks to have someone have a front left blowout and accidentally swerve into your lane on a single lane each-way highway. gear, however, will always help reduce injuries.



I think the idea A is presenting here is that one would rather ride passenger seat gearless with a cautious person driving, rather than having full gear with a risky person driving.


again- two seperate issues, how about wearing gear AND riding sanely? that way, you don't take risks AND if someone hits you and you can't avoid it, potential injuries are minimized. seems like it's a hard concept for some people to grasp?


Gear will only protect you so much, one of my friends is an EMT and he told me when I got my bike that out of all the motorcycle accidents he's come across, a helmet only saved one person over 60mph; unless you wanna wear one of these, http://images.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/300/2009-Leatt-Moto-GPX-Club-Neck-Brace.jpg, it wont make too much difference whether you have a helmet on or not because the impact is gonna shatter your C-spine into pieces; and if that happens and by the grace of God you are not dead, you will be paralyzed for the rest of your life. Btw he has been an EMT ever since I was a little kid. So i'm sure he's seen his fair share of motorcyclist accidents.

interesting statistic your friend quotes... here's some real statistics:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809861.PDF <-- effectiveness of 0.37.

po-tay-to, po-ta-toe.

the fact is we're talking about two seperate things;
a) taking risky maneuvers on a motorcycle and,
b) trying to minimize reprecussions of an accident by wearing gear.

they're often times positively correlated, but the fact is, they are seperate issues. people drive dangerously with and without gear. but people will always reduce potential injuries they may encounter (whether or not they are taking risks) by wearing proper gear. you don't have to be taking risks to have someone fly through a blind red light. you don't have to be taking risks to have someone make a left hand turn into you. you don't have to be taking risks to have someone have a front left blowout and accidentally swerve into your lane on a single lane each-way highway. gear, however, will always help reduce injuries.




again- two seperate issues, how about wearing gear AND riding sanely? that way, you don't take risks AND if someone hits you and you can't avoid it, potential injuries are minimized. seems like it's a hard concept for some people to grasp?



interesting statistic your friend quotes... here's some real statistics:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809861.PDF <-- effectiveness of 0.37.

The issue I'm addressing is that there is truth in people taking more risks when they have gear to "protect" them; maybe you don't, maybe I don't, maybe A doesn't, but the fact is a lot of people feel that way. Especially a lot of adrenaline junkies out there who want to do stupid things and want to minimize the risk in doing it. The point being made in my post, is that between cautiousness and protective gear, you will be far better off paying attention and being cautious. I do both of those things, but if I had to put my life on one or the other, I think reasonable people are going to pick caution.

Does your DOT article mention any speed-specific crashes? Because I think I did. He didn't say in all his years being an EMT a helmet didn't help anybody, he just before cautioned me to always wear my helmet bc it will save my life. Following that we were talking about high speed accidents. I think somebody's first hand experience in roughly 20 years of scraping motorcyclists off the pavement qualifies him to share his advice and knowledge about the situation. As long as we are staying realistic, do you think that hardshell with Styrofoam and fabric lining is gonna do anything for your c-spine (neck and upper spine) when you slam into a car or pavement or anything at 60mph? GEAR WILL ONLY PROTECT YOU SO MUCH!!! I wear full gear everytime I leave the house, it may save my life, but it may not; don't rely on it, use your head and be cautious of whats going on around you.

If you wanna talk statistics, bud, you need to asses the boundaries of the study. The comment, "here are some real statistics" is true, but for someone who wants to cry, "two separate issues" it is kind of ironic you would throw me statistics that don't apply to only 60mph crashes and onward; especially since I said what will kill you at those speeds is a neck injury, i didnt say the helmet wouldnt protect your head, I said it wont make much of a difference. i think it is pretty safe to assume that a lot of that 37% is attributed to lower speed crashes and accidents, i think it would be safe to say that higher speeds will yield a lower percentage of survivors.

*boom* lawyer'd

but if I had to put my life on one or the other, I think reasonable people are going to pick caution.


the point that i've been trying to make is that you don't have to put your life on one or the other.
you can always choose to wear gear whether or not you choose to drive recklessly or take risks.
if you break your spine in an accident, chances are you probably would not have a head in one piece if you weren't wearing a helmet in that same accident.
so you're right, its possible to still sustain fatal injuries while wearing gear.
however my point that gear will almost always reduce injuries still stands. there is no point not wearing gear, and there is no point suggesting to others that it's not a bad idea for them to do so. to do otherwise in my opinion (how ever "high and mighty" "A" thinks it is) is detrimental to the motorcycling community at large.

the point that i've been trying to make is that you don't have to put your life on one or the other.
you can always choose to wear gear whether or not you choose to drive recklessly or take risks.
if you break your spine in an accident, chances are you probably would not have a head in one piece if you weren't wearing a helmet in that same accident.
so you're right, its possible to still sustain fatal injuries while wearing gear.
however my point that gear will almost always reduce injuries still stands. there is no point not wearing gear, and there is no point suggesting to others that it's not a bad idea for them to do so. to do otherwise in my opinion (how ever "high and mighty" "A" thinks it is) is detrimental to the motorcycling community at large.

Alex, you should just stop trying lmao. What you're saying is just going completely over their heads.

Alex, you should just stop trying lmao. What you're saying is just going completely over their heads.

Not to mention delusional. :der:

Your 'opinion' of 'motorcycling community at large' does not nearly describe the motorcycling community in the world.
In reality, majority of motorcycling community worldwide do not have motorcycles, traffic patterns nor roads that allow travel speeds that exceed much more than 50-60 kph.

Among the members of this forum, your opinion may be true, we all speed and likely have nicely paved roads that allow us to ride aggressively beyond our abilities. But do not assume that to be the rest of the world. Most motorcycle riders worldwide, can not afford to have a helmet let along ride ATGATT.

Of course, if you have never ridden your motorcycle or motorcycle travel outside of your own country, you would never know what 'motorcycling community at large' really consist of minority of riders who ride with helmet.

When common sense of riding/driving cautiously, following traffic laws and maintain a safe traveling distance according to your speed is out the window, of course you rely on wearing gear to 'survive' in case of an accident.
But accidents are not likely to occur in the first place if most people just do as mentioned. Gears only work when accidents occur.

IMO, that's like saying 'loud pipes save lives', imagine what paying attention and knowing how to avoid accidents would do?

BTW, I see "A" answered quite a few of Alex's questions, but Alex S have failed to answer questions about his own post/accident.. what's the deal?

Not to mention delusional. :der:

Your 'opinion' of 'motorcycling community at large' does not nearly describe the motorcycling community in the world.
In reality, majority of motorcycling community worldwide do not have motorcycles, traffic patterns nor roads that allow travel speeds that exceed much more than 50-60 kph.

Among the members of this forum, your opinion may be true, we all speed and likely have nicely paved roads that allow us to ride aggressively beyond our abilities. But do not assume that to be the rest of the world. Most motorcycle riders worldwide, can not afford to have a helmet let along ride ATGATT.

Of course, if you have never ridden your motorcycle or motorcycle travel outside of your own country, you would never know what 'motorcycling community at large' really consist of minority of riders who ride with helmet.

When common sense of riding/driving cautiously, following traffic laws and maintain a safe traveling distance according to your speed is out the window, of course you rely on wearing gear to 'survive' in case of an accident.
But accidents are not likely to occur in the first place if most people just do as mentioned. Gears only work when accidents occur.

IMO, that's like saying 'loud pipes save lives', imagine what paying attention and knowing how to avoid accidents would do?

BTW, I see "A" answered quite a few of Alex's questions, but Alex S have failed to answer questions about his own post/accident.. what's the deal?

Thank you for reinforcing my opinion.

In reality, majority of motorcycling community worldwide do not have motorcycles


... what? are you refering to scooters? if so, the same still holds true. gear prevents injuries. you do not control other people's actions. i have seen PLENTY of scooter accidents. and you don't need to be going 100mph to get run over by a truck.


Among the members of this forum, your opinion may be true, we all speed and likely have nicely paved roads that allow us to ride aggressively beyond our abilities.


again! why is there this horrible misconception that you can't get in an accident if you're driving safely? let me caps and bold it in case you have trouble seeing, or are simply grazing the text.

ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. THEY AREN'T CALLED ACCIDENTS BECAUSE YOU INTENDED FOR IT TO HAPPEN. WEARING GEAR IS A PREVENTATIVE MEASURE TAKEN TO REDUCE INJURIES IN THE EVENT OF AN ACCIDENT


Of course, if you have never ridden your motorcycle or motorcycle travel outside of your own country, you would never know what 'motorcycling community at large' really consist of minority of riders who ride with helmet.


just because as you say the majority of riders in the world ride unprotected doesn't mean gear doesn't prevent injuries. if the majority of the world thought it was a great idea to rub dirt in their wounds, if you got a scrape, would you? if the rest of the world decided it was a great idea to stick a knife in your arm every day, would you? if the rest of the world decided it was a great idea to cut off your pinky toe, would you? if the rest of the world decided it was a great idea to put yourself in the position where you can easily be killed simply by falling... would you? why not take a simple precaution that saves an estimated 37% of people involved in fatal motorcycle crashes.
if you can't afford a helmet, how do you afford a motorcycle? or gas to put in that motorcycle?


BTW, I see "A" answered quite a few of Alex's questions, but Alex S have failed to answer questions about his own post/accident.. what's the deal?

not only did i answer his condescending questions, his questions didn't need to be asked in the first place, because if one were to actually read what i said originally you would see the information is already there. however if one simply grazes through looking only for what they feel reinforces their own opinion, they miss important parts like ... what actually happened?

or maybe you're talking about another question?

and you're right, i misspoke and shouldn't speak for other continents where the same thing still holds true, but let me rephrase;

wearing gear benefits the motorcycling community, and the perception of motorcyclists as being safe riders. at very least on the quarter of the planet that i live in.

better?


btw, loud pipes don't protect your head from smashing against the pavement. helmets do. if you don't understand that difference perhaps you should do some more research about gear.

Were you wearing jeans when you had your accident?

... what? are you refering to scooters? if so, the same still holds true. gear prevents injuries. you do not control other people's
actions. i have seen PLENTY of scooter accidents. and you don't need to be
going 100mph to get run over by a truck.

Scooters outnumber motorcycles worldwide, I'm considering most if not all
motorized 2-wheel vehicle operators, not just motorcyclists.
How many scooter accidents have you witnessed personally, really?
I'd like to know, give a number.. and how many of those accidents have
riders wearing full gear that avoided injuries?
How many sustained injuries from scooter accidents have you seen that are
worse than motorcycle accidents at 50 mph or above?

I've seen dozens of scooter accidents overseas during service, never a
casualty, most of them just dust themselves off and rode off within seconds,
didn't even check if their scooter suffer any damage, much less themselves.

again! why is there this horrible misconception that
you can't get in an accident if you're driving safely? let me caps and bold
it in case you have trouble seeing, or are simply grazing the text.

I never said that you can't get into an accident if you are driving safely,
you're putting 'words in my mouth', you should really try to stop doing
that.

ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. THEY AREN'T CALLED ACCIDENTS
BECAUSE YOU INTENDED FOR IT TO HAPPEN. WEARING GEAR IS A PREVENTATIVE
MEASURE TAKEN TO REDUCE INJURIES IN THE EVENT OF AN ACCIDENT

Maybe accidents just happen to you because you're not paying attention, not
following within safe distance or worse not knowing your machine's full capabilities to avoid accidents.
Wearing gear does not prevent accidents from happening, but being cautious, keeping safe distance, knowing your surroundings and how to control your vehicle at all times will help you avoid accidents.

Personally, being aware of my surroundings and knowing how to maneuver my bike gets me out of accidents every single day, with or without helmet or
gear.

just because as you say the majority of riders in the
world ride unprotected doesn't mean gear doesn't prevent injuries. if the
majority of the world thought it was a great idea to rub dirt in their
wounds, if you got a scrape, would you? if the rest of the world decided it
was a great idea to stick a knife in your arm every day, would you? if the
rest of the world decided it was a great idea to cut off your pinky toe,
would you? if the rest of the world decided it was a great idea to put
yourself in the position where you can easily be killed simply by falling...
would you? why not take a simple precaution that saves an estimated 37% of people involved in fatal motorcycle crashes.

I never said gear can not prevent injuries, you're 'putting words in my
mouth' again.
I said gear only work when you have an accident.
Incidents and statistics you present have not relation to topic nor sources
to back up your claims, lame.

if you can't afford a helmet, how do you afford a
motorcycle? or gas to put in that motorcycle?

This picture demonstrates quite well how you can afford a motorcycle without
a helmet:

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/24032011_overloaded/overloaded_017.jpg

not only did i answer his condescending questions, his
questions didn't need to be asked in the first place, because if one were to
actually read what i said originally you would see the information is
already there. however if one simply grazes through looking only for what
they feel reinforces their own opinion, they miss important parts like ...
what actually happened?

or maybe you're talking about another question?

These questions:
Those were your words:

i was behind him by about a car length
Does that mean there were no car in front of you?
Are you changing your story as you go?
Are you sure you were in the right state of mind to remember everything that
happened?
Maybe you should just post the police report here.

Can you answer these questions above?
What acctualy happened?
Did you mean you were not 'behind a car by a car length' as you said?

and you're right, i misspoke and shouldn't speak for
other continents where the same thing still holds true, but let me
rephrase;

wearing gear benefits the motorcycling community, and the perception of
motorcyclists as being safe riders. at very least on the quarter of the
planet that i live in.

better?

Of course, I'm right.

Your quarter of the planet think you are right even when you're not. How'
bout that for perception?

Your quarter of the planet also have little idea of what really goes on in
the rest of the world, live sheltered lives and consider how you function
the way the rest of the world functions, that's ignorance.

List some reasons why 'wearing gear benefits the motorcycling community'

If a rider rides like a maniac wearing full gear, does that rider benefits
the motorcycling community? or just another typical motorcyclist that people
seem to have a stigma of being dangerous motorcyclist?


btw, loud pipes don't protect your head from smashing
against the pavement. helmets do. if you don't understand that difference
perhaps you should do some more research about gear.

Loud pipes not only damage your hearing, which is in your head BTW, but others around you, even without any accidents.
I think you're the one that is not understanding the similarity, fail, again.

I like riding motorcycles.
Posted via Mobile Device

I like riding motorcycles.
Posted via Mobile DeviceI second this statement. :thumbup:

warning: graphic video contents:
LfeG-eST-HU

as to your other comment about the questions asked about me getting hit by a car, like i said, if you would bother reading what i originally wrote you would know that there was noone in front, but rather the car was to my front in the lane to the left, about a car length ahead.

please, read before you make yourself look like an ass.

Scooters outnumber motorcycles worldwide, I'm considering most if not all
motorized 2-wheel vehicle operators, not just motorcyclists.
How many scooter accidents have you witnessed personally, really?
I'd like to know, give a number.. and how many of those accidents have
riders wearing full gear that avoided injuries?
How many sustained injuries from scooter accidents have you seen that are
worse than motorcycle accidents at 50 mph or above?

I've seen dozens of scooter accidents overseas during service, never a
casualty, most of them just dust themselves off and rode off within seconds,
didn't even check if their scooter suffer any damage, much less themselves.



I never said that you can't get into an accident if you are driving safely,
you're putting 'words in my mouth', you should really try to stop doing
that.



Maybe accidents just happen to you because you're not paying attention, not
following within safe distance or worse not knowing your machine's full capabilities to avoid accidents.
Wearing gear does not prevent accidents from happening, but being cautious, keeping safe distance, knowing your surroundings and how to control your vehicle at all times will help you avoid accidents.

Personally, being aware of my surroundings and knowing how to maneuver my bike gets me out of accidents every single day, with or without helmet or
gear.



I never said gear can not prevent injuries, you're 'putting words in my
mouth' again.
I said gear only work when you have an accident.
Incidents and statistics you present have not relation to topic nor sources
to back up your claims, lame.



This picture demonstrates quite well how you can afford a motorcycle without
a helmet:

http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/24032011_overloaded/overloaded_017.jpg



These questions:


Can you answer these questions above?
What acctualy happened?
Did you mean you were not 'behind a car by a car length' as you said?



Of course, I'm right.

Your quarter of the planet think you are right even when you're not. How'
bout that for perception?

Your quarter of the planet also have little idea of what really goes on in
the rest of the world, live sheltered lives and consider how you function
the way the rest of the world functions, that's ignorance.

List some reasons why 'wearing gear benefits the motorcycling community'

If a rider rides like a maniac wearing full gear, does that rider benefits
the motorcycling community? or just another typical motorcyclist that people
seem to have a stigma of being dangerous motorcyclist?




Loud pipes not only damage your hearing, which is in your head BTW, but others around you, even without any accidents.
I think you're the one that is not understanding the similarity, fail, again.

Not to mention delusional. :der:
Gears only work when accidents occur.

IMO, that's like saying 'loud pipes save lives', imagine what paying attention and knowing how to avoid accidents would do?

Don't waste your time, this logic means nothing Alex.

Don't waste your time, this logic means nothing Alex.

And apparently the logic that accidents can occur at any time whether you want them to or not is also lost upon you guys.

Natural selection will take it's course, i guess.

i havent read much of this thread, just too much to read! however....



I've seen dozens of scooter accidents overseas during service, never a
casualty, most of them just dust themselves off and rode off within seconds,
didn't even check if their scooter suffer any damage, much less themselves.


i totally and utterly dont agree with your observation there... its possible that its a coincidence that you only observed accidents that involved scooters where they were not hurt much.

i live in a country where the BIG majority of people ride scooters, and by big i mean possibly 150 million people, lol...

i hotestly dont see the difference between crashing a bike and a scooter. obviously someone driving a bigger bike, say these 250's and up. can reach higher speeds faster, but also often drive generally at faster speed than scooters, since its so stable and it feels safe.

as a comparison, when im driving 80~ km/h on my girlfriends scooter, it feels like when im doing 145~ km/h on the ninja. generally i drive faster on the ninja, mainly because it drives more stable and gives me the impression that its safe.

anyhow, back to the scooter thing. they did a survey here in Bali, which is an island inhabited by around 4 million people i think (plus the tourists). and they came up with quite some shocking numbers:

Beritabali.com has tracked vehicular accidents in Bali from March through May 2011. Based on data supplied by the Bali traffic police, in March, 248 people died, 54 suffered serious injuries and 248 were superficially wounded. In the following month of April, 244 people were killed, 54 severely injured and 227 suffered minor injuries. Then in May, 286 people died, 57 sustained serious injuries and 303 were slightly injured.

article here: http://www.balidiscovery.com/messages/message.asp?Id=7219

i would say about 80~90% of the people driving 2 wheel vehicles here drive scooters...

the fact that almost none wear protective clothes (most cant afford it which is true, since wages here are seriously small, but a lot of the ppl do wear thin jackets, hoodies, windbreakers, which in a low speed crash can help). it is obligatory to wear a helmet here, HOWEVER almost no one does them up, which pisses me of so much. almost every time i see an accident i see the person lying on one end of the road, and their helmet is somewhere totally different. oh, and on top of it, a lot of ppl dont bother to even wear helmets when they just drive around their village. again accidents can happen anywhere, and casualties happen that way.

on top of it, there is a misconception that scooters are "slow". that is totally false, ive seen modded scooters do almost 100mph. and regardless, you can easily die getting into an accident driving MUCH slower than that. specially when its an accident involving a car, truck, wall, tree, etc.

thats my 2 cents... and i agree with wearing as much protective gear as possible, although i dont wear full gear on the everyday basis myself tbh... which i always regret when i come off the bike, lol.

on the daily commute i wear gloves, armored jacket, and my latest helmet, a Nolan N103 N-Com. i always wear long pants, but not riding pants, just TOO hot here in the tropics, and i dont want to keep changing my pants, and uh.... Birkenstock, lol! too hot for shoes :o

however, when i go on a bike tour/ride, i always wear shoes, and also my knee protectors, that look something like this:

http://assets2.revzilla.com/product_images/0011/0879/Alpinestars_Bionic_SX_Knee_Guard_detail.jpg?1235161018

even with my normal gear, i get funny looks from most people, and if they get a chance to comment, usually they say "isnt it HOT in all the gear?" sigh~... to which i reply, "its 1000 times more bearable than road rash", lol

I still have scars from a 15mph parking lot lowside 2 years ago.... The last and only time I didn't wear my jacket...

Glad to hear you survived. Keep your head up and ATGATT

Did you personally witness that accident?
You were in Taiwan at some point in your life?
Anyone can pull a video from Youtube and claim that you've been there and know what happened.

BTW, no amount of gear is going to save that rider from injury.

He wasn't paying attention of the car running a red light, the driver of the car was not paying attention to the red light,

Rider was likely to have been traveling at higher speed than the speed limit.

Combination of all that and more allowed the accident to occur, rider not wearing gear did not cause that accident.

as to your other comment about the questions asked about me getting hit by a car, like i said, if you would bother reading what i originally wrote you would know that there was noone in front, but rather the car was to my front in the lane to the left, about a car length ahead.

You were following too close to the vehicle in front or to the side of you, that's what I read.

Because you did not have full control of your vehicle that's why you had your accident.

please, read before you make yourself look like an ass.

I have no problem looking like an ass because I'm right, you're the one that's looking like a dumba$$ misinterpreting others' postings.

Natural selection will take it's course, i guess.

Definitely for you, if you do not value being caution as much as wearing gear. Ignore list you go.

Definitely for you, if you do not value being caution as much as wearing gear. Ignore list you go.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

If you're going to call someone out for misinterpreting posts (when he wasn't actually doing), don't do the exact same thing in your own response.

You were following too close to the vehicle in front or to the side of you, that's what I read.

Because you did not have full control of your vehicle that's why you had your accident.

Apparently you have a hard time with both reading details and visualization. Picture this:

TWO lanes; he is in the RIGHT lane with NO ONE in front of him. To his right is a wall blocking any further movement to the right. To his left in the LEFT lane are two cars one behind the other. The first one brakes hard so that the second car that's in the LEFT lane jumps into the RIGHT lane right on top of him on his bike. He was completely in control of his bike at all times in the RIGHT lane. What he was not in control of were the idiots in the cars in the LEFT lane. The only innocent party here is him on his bike in the RIGHT lane, in complete control of his vehicle. The two cars in the LEFT lane are guilty of multiple counts of stupidity that lead to the accident: following too closely, sudden hard braking, lane shifting w/o looking or clearing blind spots. His only fault: being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

I have no problem looking like an ass because I'm right, you're the one that's looking like a dumba$$ misinterpreting others' postings.

Actually you are not right since you yourself are a victim of what you accused him of. You were not there, you didn't see it happen, you weren't involved, and yet you act like you have intimate knowledge of the incident and that it was him who was at fault. I suggest you read more closely next time and try working on your visualization skills so that you may avoid this from happening again in the future.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.


I hope by "clear things up" you mean "extrapolate whatever information out of what I posted to support your theory" because that's what's going to happen. :mmph:

Don't waste your time, this logic means nothing Alex.


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

If you're going to call someone out for misinterpreting posts (when he wasn't actually doing), don't do the exact same thing in your own response.

When logic is not comprehended by a person, I don't need to be logical when responding. I think you missed that in my sarcastic post.


Actually you are not right since you yourself are a victim of what you accused him of. You were not there, you didn't see it happen, you weren't involved, and yet you act like you have intimate knowledge of the incident and that it was him who was at fault. I suggest you read more closely next time and try working on your visualization skills so that you may avoid this from happening again in the future.

Poor description on his part, I read that his own actions caused his accident by turning and braking at the same time, which lead to loosing control of his own vehicle.

In response to Wayanlam in Bali, I never said that scooters are slow.. but realistically how often do you get to travel 100 mph on a scooter in daily traffic of Bali?

With the population & traffic density of Bali, do you really need 50 mph to have casualties in traffic accidents (with or without gear)?

Poor description on his part, I read that his own actions caused his accident by turning and braking at the same time, which lead to loosing control of his own vehicle.

So it was a misunderstanding than? Perhaps both parties here can apologize and (virtually) shake hands?

I guess it comes from me being a critical thinking and an electronic technician used to having to troubleshoot stuff that causes me to pick up on details others might miss. I'm glad we could figure out how this started between you two, now I hope we can all come to some form of understanding and not let heated emotions get in the way of friendship on a very nice community forum?

Apparently you have a hard time with both reading details and visualization. Picture this:

TWO lanes; he is in the RIGHT lane with NO ONE in front of him. To his right is a wall blocking any further movement to the right. To his left in the LEFT lane are two cars one behind the other. The first one brakes hard so that the second car that's in the LEFT lane jumps into the RIGHT lane right on top of him on his bike. He was completely in control of his bike at all times in the RIGHT lane. What he was not in control of were the idiots in the cars in the LEFT lane. The only innocent party here is him on his bike in the RIGHT lane, in complete control of his vehicle. The two cars in the LEFT lane are guilty of multiple counts of stupidity that lead to the accident: following too closely, sudden hard braking, lane shifting w/o looking or clearing blind spots. His only fault: being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.



I don't know all the circumstances, but I cannot agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time... not at all. That's like resigning your fate to a couple of idiots around you. It appears he failed to anticipate idiotic moves on the cagers' part and prepare accordingly.

You could say it's too much to ask... but it isn't: he clearly saw the cages, they did not fall from the sky, nor they jumped from the brush into the road. Thus, he was aware of them - from awareness should come anticipation, and preparedness - by always leaving yourself a way out, and being spring-loaded to execute the avoidance maneuver at any moment.

I don't know all the circumstances, but I cannot agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time... not at all. That's like resigning your fate to a couple of idiots around you. It appears he failed to anticipate idiotic moves on the cagers' part and prepare accordingly.

You could say it's too much to ask... but it isn't: he clearly saw the cages, they did not fall from the sky, nor they jumped from the brush into the road. Thus, he was aware of them - from awareness should come anticipation, and preparedness - by always leaving yourself a way out, and being spring-loaded to execute the avoidance maneuver at any moment.

you're right, i have no objection admitting a more skilled rider probably would have been able to brake harder to avoid it. hell i've seen people stoppie while leaned over pretty far... look at those motogp guys. but let me reinforce my previous statements.

turn lane. both making a left hand turn. we both go at the same time, but i went a little slower than they did (not to mention the fact they had the inside line so a shorter distance to travel). the guy slammed on his brakes directly after the turn, i was just barely picking up to go straight when the chick cut over and hit me. i tried my best to pick it up as much as i could to the right while braking... unfortunately there wasn't enough room with the curb and wall, and she hit my front wheel/front head area of the bike with her rear bumper/quarter panel, stopped ahead after and looked, then fled. was there any indication he was going to slam his brakes? no. was there any indication she was going to cut over because he slammed his brakes? not if there wasn't an indication he was going to randomly slam his brakes for no reason. (there was no obstruction, nothing... i think maybe he realized he was going the wrong way or something? maybe he wanted to stop and chat with the people waiting in the opposing red light? really not sure why he slammed his brakes at all... there was no reason for it that i can come to... maybe hes just a dick)

the reasons for why someone does something unpredictable are pointless. the fact is, it was unpredictable. people don't normally slam on their brakes for no reason. people don't normally have their tires blow out and flip their car into oncoming traffic. but guess what, these things happen. if you want to risk your skin or potentially your life because you believe random occurances don't happen and you're smart enough to know everything in advanced, by all means, don't wear gear.

if anyone feels this way, let me know when you get hit by a car while not wearing gear... if you can still type. i'd like to hear how you feel about your statements then.

I don't know all the circumstances, but I cannot agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time... not at all. That's like resigning your fate to a couple of idiots around you. It appears he failed to anticipate idiotic moves on the cagers' part and prepare accordingly.

You could say it's too much to ask... but it isn't: he clearly saw the cages, they did not fall from the sky, nor they jumped from the brush into the road. Thus, he was aware of them - from awareness should come anticipation, and preparedness - by always leaving yourself a way out, and being spring-loaded to execute the avoidance maneuver at any moment.
:confused:

What would of been the avoidance maneuver? Maybe he should have been in the right third of his lane so he had more space to maneuver or should he have sped up and been ahead of the cars instead of somewhere between them? Maybe he should have just pulled as far to the right wall as he could?

I'm asking cause I'm not experienced myself and I'd like to know what more experienced riders would do to prevent being in this situation. I have an intersection around where I live where cars are notorious for hopping lanes at the last possible second without turn signals so they can either make it to the freeway on ramp or get out of the way of the freeway on ramp. I hate that intersection and I always drive through it more carefully than others because I'm expecting an idiot to change langes instantly without any signals.

:confused:

What would of been the avoidance maneuver? Maybe he should have been in the right third of his lane so he had more space to maneuver or should he have sped up and been ahead of the cars instead of somewhere between them? Maybe he should have just pulled as far to the right wall as he could?


i was in right third of the lane when struck, no more room due to a curb + wall. and she was slightly ahead of me... there was no way the 250 or even my 600 could have accelerated quick enough to get out of the way in time with how quickly she jumped ovre. honestly, although this sounds kinda :squid:ly, since that accident, after checking for runners (which i have encountered several times since then and managed to avoid + probably save the person behind me from getting hit), i speed away quickly from intersections to insure i'm ahead of everyone... can't be cut off if there's noone around to cut you off.

but i would like to know the "proper" avoidance maneuver. aside from maybe get better at braking

So it was a misunderstanding than? Perhaps both parties here can apologize and (virtually) shake hands?

I'd say Alex.S is just being himself, delusional of what actually happened in his own accident, but subconsciously wants to come clean about his own action that cause him to go down.

If a person cut into my lane or suddenly turn in front of me without signal nor pre-warning, I'd hit them square on, if there is a wall on the other side of me. Walls don't move, don't follow traffic laws, . Put the fault at the inconsiderate driver, not my own action that cause me to go down. If the driver happens to drive a Lexus or Mercedes, I'd like to be set for life and not have to work for a living.

Come to think of it, I easily out corner most if not all cars from a stoplight, especially with my Ninja 250 because it is lightweight. Never would I have been waiting for cars to turn ahead of me from a stoplight. I'd pass on the outside even before the first car had a chance to slow down.

In Alex.S words:

was on the 250 so there was no way of escaping with gas. even if i was on my 600 i doubt there would have been time. she hit me on the side

Seems to me he took too long to get going from the light, got himself trapped in a bad situation... another word, he may not have been paying enough attention to the traffic light turning green.

Without a police report detailing the location of the impact on both vehicles involved, relation to the traffic signals and multiple sources or accounts.. we can only assume what happened from his words.

I guess it comes from me being a critical thinking and an electronic technician used to having to troubleshoot stuff that causes me to pick up on details others might miss. I'm glad we could figure out how this started between you two, now I hope we can all come to some form of understanding and not let heated emotions get in the way of friendship on a very nice community forum?

Using critical think I came up with the above. I'm surprised that you didn't pick them up in the first place.

Debate did not start between the two of us, I was merely observing and wondering about some of the same questions that Alex.S seems to be avoiding from "A" in regard to the accident.

Riding cautiously, getting yourself out of trouble to avoiding accidents all together is more important than any gear you can put on yourself to protect you from injuries.

Fully geared-up rider doesn't necessarily project responsible rider to most people.. most of the time I consider them riders who think themselves as know-it-alls and want ride more aggressively than really need to.

i was in right third of the lane when struck, no more room due to a curb + wall. and she was slightly ahead of me... there was no way the 250 or even my 600 could have accelerated quick enough to get out of the way in time with how quickly she jumped ovre. honestly, although this sounds kinda :squid:ly, since that accident, after checking for runners (which i have encountered several times since then and managed to avoid + probably save the person behind me from getting hit), i speed away quickly from intersections to insure i'm ahead of everyone... can't be cut off if there's noone around to cut you off.

but i would like to know the "proper" avoidance maneuver. aside from maybe get better at braking
that's what I used to do in my Mustang...people always thought I was trying to race off the line or show off but it was just to get ahead of the traffic and avoid having idiots cut me off when they realize at the last second that they should be in the far right lane instead of the far left lane.

Would it be wrong to just walk your bike across the intersections like a regular bicycle? lol

I'd say Alex.S is just being himself, delusional of what actually happened in his own accident, but subconsciously wants to come clean about his own action that cause him to go down.

Nothing delusional in what he wrote. What exactly would you like him to come clean about? Were you there to witness it? If not then how can you say he is being delusional or lying? You are merely assuming you know better and acting like you are a better rider than he is by claiming you could have avoided it easily like it was nothing. You act like we as motorcyclists should have precognition to just KNOW what every cager on the road is going to do before they do it. Good luck with that, let me know from the hospital how that mentality turns out.


If a person cut into my lane or suddenly turn in front of me without signal nor pre-warning, I'd hit them square on, if there is a wall on the other side of me. Walls don't move, don't follow traffic laws, . Put the fault at the inconsiderate driver, not my own action that cause me to go down. If the driver happens to drive a Lexus or Mercedes, I'd like to be set for life and not have to work for a living.

So you are admitting that you would have been in worse shape? Or is this just sarcasm? :confused:


Come to think of it, I easily out corner most if not all cars from a stoplight, especially with my Ninja 250 because it is lightweight. Never would I have been waiting for cars to turn ahead of me from a stoplight. I'd pass on the outside even before the first car had a chance to slow down.

Can't get much slower then starting from a stop. Some people at lights (both straight and turns) just like to floor it from the second it goes green.


Seems to me he took too long to get going from the light, got himself trapped in a bad situation... another word, he may not have been paying enough attention to the traffic light turning green.

So in your opinion, if you are on a bike and you don't take off like a bat out of hell the instant it goes green, you are not paying attention/taking too long? Seems a very arrogant and somewhat ignorant stance. Not everyone is trying to race from light to light.


Riding cautiously, getting yourself out of trouble to avoiding accidents all together is more important than any gear you can put on yourself to protect you from injuries.

Not once was it said that riding cautiously and intelligently was less important than gear. That's just your assumption from all that has been said about it's better to be ATGATT no matter the ride. You can only control what you do, but not what anyone else on the road does. Considering the fact that it's been proven that 75% of motorcycle fatalities come from cars/trucks impacting bikes wouldn't it be the cautious and intelligent thing to just be prudent and wear all you gear on every ride? I think so, I know that if left to myself I won't go down. But add in all the crazy drivers out there you just never know what can happen and when. You can't predict every move of every driver. To think otherwise is suicidal.


Fully geared-up rider doesn't necessarily project responsible rider to most people.. most of the time I consider them riders who think themselves as know-it-alls and want ride more aggressively than really need to.

So you first claim that alex.s is riding too timidly (not taking off fast enough, not paying attention) then you do a 180 and say that you view those in ATGATT as overly aggressive drivers? So which is it? Wear your gear and be an aggressive driver or not wear you gear and be a squid? Are you saying that you are a better rider because you DON'T wear ATGATT? You aren't making much sense here.

So you first claim that alex.s is riding too timidly (not taking off fast enough, not paying attention) then you do a 180 and say that you view those in ATGATT as overly aggressive drivers? So which is it? Wear your gear and be an aggressive driver or not wear you gear and be a squid? Are you saying that you are a better rider because you DON'T wear ATGATT? You aren't making much sense here.

I think this could be said for pretty much all of his posts.

ouch. Hope you have a speedy recovery Uj

Hey guys, how about taking the "debate" to private messages instead of cluttering up the topic for the OP, I mean, it would be horrible to have a 2 page argument right in the middle of his topic.

Oh...wait..

i was in right third of the lane when struck, no more room due to a curb + wall. and she was slightly ahead of me... there was no way the 250 or even my 600 could have accelerated quick enough to get out of the way in time with how quickly she jumped ovre. honestly, although this sounds kinda :squid:ly, since that accident, after checking for runners (which i have encountered several times since then and managed to avoid + probably save the person behind me from getting hit), i speed away quickly from intersections to insure i'm ahead of everyone... can't be cut off if there's noone around to cut you off.

but i would like to know the "proper" avoidance maneuver. aside from maybe get better at braking

Hard to say, but as I understand, at the light Alex was parallel to the first cager, with the second cager behind in the left lane. The safest option appears to accelerate ahead of the first cager right off the light, leaving them behind. Given that the first and second cager took off real fast off the light, I would re-evaluate the situation, move over to the right of my lane and cover the front brake lever, as speeding up didn't work and swerving was not an option due to lack of space. Thus, leaving some buffer on the side (just like he did) and being spring-loaded to brake appear most logical.

Of course this is with the benefit of hindsight being 20/20 ;)

Nothing delusional in what he wrote. What exactly would you like him to come clean about? Were you there to witness it? If not then how can you say he is being delusional or lying? You are merely assuming you know better and acting like you are a better rider than he is by claiming you could have avoided it easily like it was nothing. You act like we as motorcyclists should have precognition to just KNOW what every cager on the road is going to do before they do it. Good luck with that, let me know from the hospital how that mentality turns out.

Human memory is highly suggestible and biased, what he wrote about his accident is missing many details that allow people to speculate and assume at their liberty. For me memory serves as poor evidence of what actually occurred, delusion is just someone think their memory is 100% accurate when in actuality can not provide evidence for facts.

Without a police report that clearly provide the details such as where the impact occur in the intersection, where the impact occur on both vehicle (i.e. passenger side door vs clutch side handlebar), when the impact occur in relation to the traffic signals, etc.. all I can do is to use critical thinking as you mentioned, assume the possibilities what occurred prior to impact.

Yes, motorcyclists should have precognition if they want to survive on public streets with crazy drivers.
If they don't, they better have lot of exposure to crazy drivers to be able to predict the outcomes of their own actions when crazy things occur..* if not, they are likely to end up as statistics.

So you are admitting that you would have been in worse shape? Or is this just sarcasm? :confused:

Did he mention what shape he ended up after the accident, how would you go about comparing shape?

Can't get much slower then starting from a stop. Some people at lights (both straight and turns) just like to floor it from the second it goes green.

Be reasonable, no one is indicating that vehicles are accelerating out of control from a stop.
I know I am capable of out accelerate (not like an maniac) most, if not all automobiles from a stop with my Ninja 250, specially turning from a stop. That's just something I do regularly to get myself out of the way of traffic, allow more room between myself and other vehicles traveling in the same direction. Motorcycles are nimble in comparison to cars, that's what most motorcyclist should do to maximize cushion to avoid accidents.

So in your opinion, if you are on a bike and you don't take off like a bat out of hell the instant it goes green, you are not paying attention/taking too long? Seems a very arrogant and somewhat ignorant stance. Not everyone is trying to race from light to light.

Not my opinon, just a possibility to what could have actually happened during his accident.

Not once was it said that riding cautiously and intelligently was less important than gear. That's just your assumption from all that has been said about it's better to be ATGATT no matter the ride. You can only control what you do, but not what anyone else on the road does. Considering the fact that it's been proven that 75% of motorcycle fatalities come from cars/trucks impacting bikes wouldn't it be the cautious and intelligent thing to just be prudent and wear all you gear on every ride? I think so, I know that if left to myself I won't go down. But add in all the crazy drivers out there you just never know what can happen and when. You can't predict every move of every driver. To think otherwise is suicidal.

Not once did I say that gears are not important, but just not as effective as riding cautiously and able to control your ride at ll time to avoid accidents.

Where are you getting your statistics from? can you provide a source? is that global stats or just local where you live?

I think everyone should be allowed to decide what gear they want to wear when they ride. If they don't survive, statistics they become.. not a big deal.

Maybe I am suicidal, I know when some Lexus or Mercedes cut into my lane, I'm aiming to hit a payday.

So you first claim that alex.s is riding too timidly (not taking off fast enough, not paying attention) then you do a 180 and say that you view those in ATGATT as overly aggressive drivers? So which is it? Wear your gear and be an aggressive driver or not wear you gear and be a squid? Are you saying that you are a better rider because you DON'T wear ATGATT? You aren't making much sense here.

There is a huge difference between overly aggressively riding like dragging knees in every corner and starting from a stop to get away from slower moving traffic to avoid accidents, wouldn't you agree?

Does not wearing your gear automatically categorize a rider to be a squid?

I'm saying that better rider would have avoided getting into situations as Alex's did in his accident.

I think this could be said for pretty much all of his posts.

Not much more can be said about your posts neither.. unless you've got something to contribute to the topic.. STFU.

Hey guys, how about taking the "debate" to private messages instead of cluttering up the topic for the OP.

+1.

Learn to recognize when you're no longer casually posting ON-TOPIC and crossed over into a debate. Keep it between you and your opponent via PM.

Again, get well OP. hope you learned your lesson. You definitely left a positive impression on me and my riding habits.

Yes, motorcyclists should have precognition if they want to survive on public streets with crazy drivers.
If they don't, they better have lot of exposure to crazy drivers to be able to predict the outcomes of their own actions when crazy things occur..* if not, they are likely to end up as statistics.

If you truly believe that motorcyclists should have precognition, then no one should be riding a motorcycle. Precognition is not something that is considered normal, trainable, and by most of the world not even exist. The best any of us normal people can hope for is to train in spotting possible erratic behavior and hope we can spot those traits in time to be able to react to them. Unfortunately you will not be able to do so for 100% of all cases.

Did he mention what shape he ended up after the accident, how would you go about comparing shape?

He described how he was hit on the side by the side of her car. That's more of a glancing blow that was hard enough to do damage. You said you would hit them square on. This would result much more significant damage and could result in far greater injuries. In accidents you usually want to aim for the least amount of sudden impact in order to lesson damage to you and others.


Be reasonable, no one is indicating that vehicles are accelerating out of control from a stop.
I know I am capable of out accelerate (not like an maniac) most, if not all automobiles from a stop with my Ninja 250, specially turning from a stop. That's just something I do regularly to get myself out of the way of traffic, allow more room between myself and other vehicles traveling in the same direction. Motorcycles are nimble in comparison to cars, that's what most motorcyclist should do to maximize cushion to avoid accidents.

Most is not all and not 100%. There can and will be times that unless you are WOT you will be beat by someone off the line. You are also not taking into account that they had the inside lane, which means they had less distance to cover. This allows them get a jump on you if they take off rapidly. When I see someone trying to accelerate hard as if they are racing me I usually back off. It's usually a safer idea to not try and race someone in a cage that is in a hurry. In the end if/when they do something stupid you usually lose.


Not once did I say that gears are not important, but just not as effective as riding cautiously and able to control your ride at all time to avoid accidents.

Where are you getting your statistics from? can you provide a source? is that global stats or just local where you live?

The Hurt report on US nation wide motorcycle accidents. (http://www.ct.gov/dot/lib/dot/documents/dhighwaysafety/ctdot_hurt.pdf)

The point of the debate started with people arguing the idea of ATGATT on every ride. Some come across as having the attitude of "Well I'm such a good, responsible rider, and it's just a short trip, I won't need my gear this time cause I can avoid an accident because of how skilled I am." This attitude is dangerous for we never know what might happen. I know this personally having had a lady hit me a few weeks ago. Nothing could have predicted her actions and nothing I could have done to avoid it other than just not being there at that time and place. Since you have no control over other people's actions, and you own proper safety gear, why would you even take the chance of greater injury to yourself by choosing to not wear your gear every time you ride. That's like choosing to not wear your seat-belt and turn off the airbags because you feel you are in complete control and won't get into an accident on this drive.


There is a huge difference between overly aggressively riding like dragging knees in every corner and starting from a stop to get away from slower moving traffic to avoid accidents, wouldn't you agree?

Not in the way you stated it earlier. You seem to make the assumption in these statements that all cages are going to be slower than you. I know from experience that there are many cars and many drivers that will out accelerate me from a start unless I try to be an overly aggressive WOT rider from every light. Also from experience, I have learned it's not always the smartest thing to just blast off immediately from a light. Had I done this as you suggest there is at least one incident where I would have ended up in the hospital or morgue had I taken your advice. I started to turn left from my light and stopped inches from being t-boned by an idiot running the light. Had I gunned it like you seem to be suggesting, I would have been right in the middle of his lane getting slammed by an old Caprice Classic going at minimum 45mph+. The same tactic can not be used in every situation, to try and do so will only end up in you getting hurt.


I'm saying that better rider would have avoided getting into situations as Alex's did in his accident.

This is truly an arrogant statement. You don't know his level of skills and are making assumptions while at the same time praising your own skills as if to suggest you are a better rider. This sort of mentality will eventually cause you to be overconfident in your "superior" skills and make a mistake that will cause you injury. I find it best to learn from others, be thankful that they made it out alive, and hope that a similar downfall doesn't happen upon me.

With this sort of attitude you make it sound as if you and your "superior" skills might have also avoided my accident a few weeks back. You should never assume you could do better in any accident case. You don't know what can happen, how you will react, how your bike will react, or how those around you will react in any given situation. All you can do is hope that your training and experience are enough for your instincts to pull from in order to escape accidents as they suddenly appear.

In response to Wayanlam in Bali, I never said that scooters are slow.. but realistically how often do you get to travel 100 mph on a scooter in daily traffic of Bali?

With the population & traffic density of Bali, do you really need 50 mph to have casualties in traffic accidents (with or without gear)?

that is exactly what i was pointing out... you said that you have seen dozens of scooter accidents without any fatalities, and often they barely hurt at all, even though (i assume) they were not wearing gear.

all i was saying is that i do not believe what you observed is accurate; not saying that you didn't witness what you did, but saying that its as easily to get killed or hurt riding a scooter as it is to ride a motorbike.

again, you dont need to be going 100mph to kill yourself. in some cases you dont even need to be moving at all to die or get hurt on a bike (or a bicycle/on foot, in that case, lol) if someone wipes you out. ive seen accidents where the person was only doing 10~20 MPH, but because his daughter in the back seat was not wearing a helmet, and slammed her head on the road when she came off, she had a seizure and was out right there on the spot....... dont know what happened to her in the end, but its not a nice memory.

(besides the point, but still along the same lines); i would love to see some people who think they are extremely experienced drivers come to a country like Indonesia, or even worse, Laos or Vietnam, and hop on a bike. i can guarantee that you will need quite some time to adjust to the driving habits of the general population here. you need to learn to go with the flow basically. there are no real road regulations, people buy their drivers licenses, they don't do any exams, kids at the age of 10 (without licenses) hop on their parents scooters and bum around on the main roads. it all adds up to a general chaos, where anything can happen.

this factor of random unpredictable occurrences, which can and will always happen anywhere in the world (but more so here, lol) can easily take out even the most experienced riders. sometimes there is just no way out.

So, i believe that what is being said here (repetitively it seems) is that BY wearing gear, if you get into a predicament where EVEN if you are an extremely good/confident/experienced rider, that would cause you to have an accident, your chances of making it through alive, or less hurt, is greatly improved.

i really dont think that there is a correlation between riding skill and wearing gear... i mean a obviously a newbee rider should definitely wear gear, since they are more likely to make a mistake that could lead to an accident, but even when you are a biker God... anything can still happen, which is when you are really grateful that you had the gear on, or regret that you didn't, which probably happens more often :rolleyes:.

to tell others that you would not have had an accident had you been in their shoes, or had they been better riders, is rather arrogant.

there are so many factors, predictable or not, in each accident, that its impossible to predict the outcome with any changes. people could always say "had he/she/I left the house 10 seconds later/earlier, then i would not have been hit by the car", but thats not the case, we left when we did, we drove the speed that we did, and had the accident the way it happened.

obviously if you drive like a lunatic, and take unnecessary risks (wheelies, stoppies, burnouts, knee dragging, etc etc.) like oh so many entertaining but painful youtube videos. well obviously its (almost) all down to the driver, and their skill level that predicts the outcome whether or not they pull off a sick bike stunt, or if they eat s#!t. in that case, people can brag and boast all they want, and say that they can do it better, since it really is down to the skill. in which case; take the camcorder to the nearest empty parking lot, showoff, and upload it onto Youtube :thumbup:

but road accidents involving multiple people/factors/road conditions, etc. you cant realistically predict the outcome had you been in their place. unless it was something stupid like "uh... forgot how to turn!"

this debate has been quite entertaining to read, but it seems like ppl are getting carried away, and not accepting the fact that accidents can happen because they are in fact "accidents".

but whatever, we all have the right to believe in what we want to, i personally try to be humble. i have been in so many accidents (both predictable, and unpredictable) that i have learnt from them in my own way.

If you truly believe that motorcyclists should have precognition, then no one should be riding a motorcycle. Precognition is not something that is considered normal, trainable, and by most of the world not even exist. The best any of us normal people can hope for is to train in spotting possible erratic behavior and hope we can spot those traits in time to be able to react to them. Unfortunately you will not be able to do so for 100% of all cases.

I said should, I didn't say that it would ever exist that way.. that's why people become statistics.

He described how he was hit on the side by the side of her car. That's more of a glancing blow that was hard enough to do damage. You said you would hit them square on. This would result much more significant damage and could result in far greater injuries. In accidents you usually want to aim for the least amount of sudden impact in order to lesson damage to you and others.

If I weigh 120 lb. and he weighs 200 lb. so that I can slow down quicker prior to impact, would there be a difference?
I were I to be able to slow down significantly since I'm not turning my handlebar and loose control prior to impact,would that made a difference?
I know my capabilities when controlling my vehicles, do you?

Most is not all and not 100%. There can and will be times that unless you are WOT you will be beat by someone off the line. You are also not taking into account that they had the inside lane, which means they had less distance to cover. This allows them get a jump on you if they take off rapidly. When I see someone trying to accelerate hard as if they are racing me I usually back off. It's usually a safer idea to not try and race someone in a cage that is in a hurry. In the end if/when they do something stupid you usually lose.

I don't need to ride WOT to pass a car from stop.. do you?

The Hurt report on US nation wide motorcycle accidents. (http://www.ct.gov/dot/lib/dot/documents/dhighwaysafety/ctdot_hurt.pdf)

Thanks for the source, but where in that report is your stats from?
Are they stats within US only?
If so, hardly a reflection of motorcycle community worldwide.

The point of the debate started with people arguing the idea of ATGATT on every ride. Some come across as having the attitude of "Well I'm such a good, responsible rider, and it's just a short trip, I won't need my gear this time cause I can avoid an accident because of how skilled I am." This attitude is dangerous for we never know what might happen. I know this personally having had a lady hit me a few weeks ago. Nothing could have predicted her actions and nothing I could have done to avoid it other than just not being there at that time and place. Since you have no control over other people's actions, and you own proper safety gear, why would you even take the chance of greater injury to yourself by choosing to not wear your gear every time you ride. That's like choosing to not wear your seat-belt and turn off the airbags because you feel you are in complete control and won't get into an accident on this drive.

Sorry for your crash, but without details of your crash I can not determine whether or not you could have avoided your accident.
Besides, none of my cars have airbags. Never have I gotten into an accident over 800,000 miles of driving that I have deployed any airbags.


Not in the way you stated it earlier. You seem to make the assumption in these statements that all cages are going to be slower than you. I know from experience that there are many cars and many drivers that will out accelerate me from a start unless I try to be an overly aggressive WOT rider from every light. Also from experience, I have learned it's not always the smartest thing to just blast off immediately from a light. Had I done this as you suggest there is at least one incident where I would have ended up in the hospital or morgue had I taken your advice. I started to turn left from my light and stopped inches from being t-boned by an idiot running the light. Had I gunned it like you seem to be suggesting, I would have been right in the middle of his lane getting slammed by an old Caprice Classic going at minimum 45mph+. The same tactic can not be used in every situation, to try and do so will only end up in you getting hurt.

I did not make assumptions about all cars, I said most if not all. You are not reading carefully.

From a stop, I know most motorcycles, even a Ninja 250 are faster off the line without much effort.

If what you learned from your experience works for you, great.. don't assume the same thing should work for everybody else.

This is truly an arrogant statement. You don't know his level of skills and are making assumptions while at the same time praising your own skills as if to suggest you are a better rider. This sort of mentality will eventually cause you to be overconfident in your "superior" skills and make a mistake that will cause you injury. I find it best to learn from others, be thankful that they made it out alive, and hope that a similar downfall doesn't happen upon me.
With this sort of attitude you make it sound as if you and your "superior" skills might have also avoided my accident a few weeks back. You should never assume you could do better in any accident case. You don't know what can happen, how you will react, how your bike will react, or how those around you will react in any given situation. All you can do is hope that your training and experience are enough for your instincts to pull from in order to escape accidents as they suddenly appear.

That's how I was taught being in the service, I am prepared at all time. I learn how to react quicker than most people, to control my every move for maximum survivability in case of vehicle accident or combat.
I've survives three wars, 32 months of combat overseas, lost 16 brothers, taken 18 bullets throughout my body for this country.

Do you consider me arrogant or just well trained and experienced?
If you don't mind, edit your post and take out the 'arrogant' assumptions about me.

If you want to discuss further, PM me about your miserable mishaps on motorcycles and I will use my critical thinking and let you know what you can learn from them.

:beatdeadhorse:

Only thing worse than a forum argument is one with really really long, multiple quotes and posts.



well, Ok.... there are actually more things worse than a forum argument :p

Not gonna do the multiple quote thing again.

N Ja, you are the king of assumptions, so trying to use that argument against others is just stupid and wrong. You ASSUME he lost control of his bike when he never said he did. You ASSUME you could have avoided it due to your superior skill (an extremely arrogant statement btw). You ASSUME that your tactic of taking off rapidly from the start is better (that's how you make your statements sound regardless of how you mean them). You stated you would hit them square on, and are now back peddling saying you could slow down faster? Make sense here and stop changing your story.

I do consider you arrogant and will not edit my posts to appease you. Military training does not mean you are better motorcycle rider, I too have military training and experience but I also know there are MANY motorcyclists that are light years better than me. Why is that? Because they have more experience and training in riding motorcycles, something that isn't taught in the military. Sure the military helps you become better with your reaction timing and the ability to spot trouble. That does not mean you are an expert motorcyclist.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75713

Please enlighten me on what you think I could learn from this other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Not gonna do the multiple quote thing again.

Why not, it clearly shows what another person typed before.
Do whatever you want, this is a discussion.. stand your ground and make your thoughts understood whatever way, but don't sway just because someone else not contributing to the discussion dislikes the way the discussion looks on a forum.

N Ja, you are the king of assumptions, so trying to use that argument against others is just stupid and wrong. You ASSUME he lost control of his bike when he never said he did. You ASSUME you could have avoided it due to your superior skill (an extremely arrogant statement btw). You ASSUME that your tactic of taking off rapidly from the start is better (that's how you make your statements sound regardless of how you mean them). You stated you would hit them square on, and are now back peddling saying you could slow down faster? Make sense here and stop changing your story.

In his own words:

i tried to steer to the right and hit the brakes at the same time, but couldn't get the bike out of the way in time.
Looks to me that he did not react in time, neither did he perform the correct maneuver.
I read it just as he typed it.
Like I said before, without a detailed police report, we are all left to make our own assumptions.
Just like your assuming one possibility that it might have happened, I assume another.
Arrogant or not my visualization is different than most, if that allow me better chance of survival and less accidents occur to me, does that make me better rider?
Simple yes or no answer would do.

I do consider you arrogant and will not edit my posts to appease you. Military training does not mean you are better motorcycle rider, I too have military training and experience but I also know there are MANY motorcyclists that are light years better than me. Why is that? Because they have more experience and training in riding motorcycles, something that isn't taught in the military. Sure the military helps you become better with your reaction timing and the ability to spot trouble. That does not mean you are an expert motorcyclist.

I never said military training helped my motorcycling skills specifically, you're taking things out of context.


http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75713

Please enlighten me on what you think I could learn from this other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You failed to observe the environment behind you while stopped at a traffic light.

You could have avoided the impact if you were scanning behind and watching for traffic moving up towards you.

How long were you stopped at the light?

3-4 seconds or more?

Never occurred to you that you should look in the mirror once in a while?

Did you allow safe distance with the car in front of you to maneuver around if you needed to?

Isn't that the reason MSF course teach riders to leave the bike in gear for quick launch if someone is approaching you from behind at a traffic light?

King of assumptions? that's someone who uses lots of critical thinking, right?

I don't think N Ja is changing his story, more like seeing other possibilities of different outcomes when someone reacts differently to an accident.. a good lawyer can talk his way out of any conviction, right?

BTW, going down on a bike is loosing control of it..

You failed to observe the environment behind you while stopped at a traffic light.

You could have avoided the impact if you were scanning behind and watching for traffic moving up towards you.

How long were you stopped at the light?

3-4 seconds or more?

Never occurred to you that you should look in the mirror once in a while?

Did you allow safe distance with the car in front of you to maneuver around if you needed to?



So if we are standing in line waiting for it to move and I cheap shot you in the back, you would be able to avoid it?

I guarantee you would have been hit the same as me. You can speculate all you want and think so highly of your skills, but in the end it was the other driver not paying attention.

I don't know how many cars behind me because I wasn't sitting there trying to count them.

Apparently you can't read. We were all STOPPED, I knew she was there, I knew she was stopped only a couple feet behind me. I can't control how close she is, only how close I am to the car in front of me. I was towards the right and had room to move around the car in front me. This is why my bike hit the ground instead of hitting another car when I got hit from behind.

In order to have seen her just suddenly jump I would had to have been watching her like a hawk every second WAITING for her to do it. Instead I was observing my entire surroundings. It took her 1 second to go from safely stopped to hitting my bike. Think you can react to what you don't know is coming? If that's the case then how come you got shot? If you're so good at avoidance shouldn't you have seen it coming and not been there?

You truly are an arrogant person aren't you? You think you can avoid anything don't you? You just can't accept the idea that you are not in total control at every second?

Learn to accept the idea that there are things that are out of your control and that accidents can and will happen even if you do everything right.

I'm out, no point continuing to argue with one who is "always right" and in control of everything around him.

And FYI:
losing control = you go down or cause the accident on your own merit with no one else to blame but you
getting hit by an idiot cager is not the same as losing control

lol damn.. how did this thread end up like this?

dont feel sorry, just hope i can save a few ppl from my stupidity lol

How are ya feeling?

Looks to me that he did not react in time, neither did he perform the correct maneuver.


i'm curious, what would the correct maneuver be? if a car is coming directly at you from the side, you have no more room on the other side to move over, you don't have enough space or power to accelerate out, and aren't able to brake quickly enough to completely avoid the car? btw The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds for humans. a car can quickly change lanes in under half a second. that leaves you with about a quarter second to move your bike to the outside of the lane and stop.

you keep saying you need a police report but i don't understand why this would change anything? the girl who hit me fled. the police only had my statement

SQUID WARS!!!!!! TONIGHT ON DISCOVERY CHANNEL... or at your local ninjette forum...

Wows hope you get better. I'm wearing my gear the rest of the season now. I dont care that its super hot now.

SQUID WARS!!!!!! TONIGHT ON DISCOVERY CHANNEL... or at your local ninjette forum...

LOL

Here's the score folks...it's been a doozy of a time trying to keep up with these two, but in the end after looking at the judges' score cards....

alex s 14

N Ja 14

We are going to sudden death overtime!!!!

So if we are standing in line waiting for it to move and I cheap shot you in the back, you would be able to avoid it?

Do you meant the lady the hit you from behind was taking a cheap shot at you?
IMO, she was simply not paying attention to what she was doing. Wouldn't you agree?
Cheap shots would have been running you & your bike over with her car.
*
I guarantee you would have been hit the same as me. You can speculate all you want and think so highly of your skills, but in the end it was the other driver not paying attention.

You guarantee? how? Don't make guarantees that you can not perform, that's stupid.

I don't know how many cars behind me because I wasn't sitting there trying to count them.

Apparently you can't read. We were all STOPPED, I knew she was there, I knew she was stopped only a couple feet behind me. I can't control how close she is, only how close I am to the car in front of me. I was towards the right and had room to move around the car in front me. This is why my bike hit the ground instead of hitting another car when I got hit from behind.

First you said all traffic has stopped moving, then you say you don't know how many cars were behind you, that indicates you were not paying attention to what's behind you. You were not paying attention therefore you got hit. seems pretty simple to me.

In order to have seen her just suddenly jump I would have to have been watching her like a hawk every second WAITING for her to do it. Instead I was observing my entire surroundings. It took her 1 second to go from safely stopped to hitting my bike. Think you can react to what you don't know is coming? If that's the case then how come you got shot? If you're so good at avoidance shouldn't you have seen it coming and not been there?

If you had set yourself in a position to get hit prior to stopping at the light.. then you'd likely get hit.
I always allow plenty of room between myself and the car in front of me, I tap the brake lever to flash my tail/brake light before and when I'm at stop, to attract attention from the vehicle behind me so they know I'm in front of them.
I constantly scan my 360 for possible threats. Since most accidents occur at the intersection, I pay special attention not a moment that goes by I don't look for my way out of trouble.*

You are out of context to compare combat situation vs riding motorcycle on public roads, each shot taken at me were meant to kill me, all of them failed.
I did not ask you what you would have done in my place, you have no idea what combat situation I was in, because I did not describe any of it in my posts, do not assume anything about my combat experiences.

You truly are an arrogant person aren't you? You think you can avoid anything don't you? You just can't accept the idea that you are not in total control at every second?

I never said that I can avoid anything. You are putting words in my mouth that I never said.
You asked what you should have done if I were in your situation and I told you.

Learn to accept the idea that there are things that are out of your control and that accidents can and will happen even if you do everything right.

If you do everything right and accidents still happen to you, then you're SOL.

I'm out, no point continuing to argue with one who acts like he is god.

Give up so easily? no wonder why you fail to see correlation between your military training and motorcycle riding skills.

And FYI:
losing control = you go down on your own merit with no one else to blame but you
getting hit by an idiot cager is not the same as losing control

Going down on a bike is loosing control, regardless the cause.. if you regain control without going down, that's still loosing control.

i'm curious, what would the correct maneuver be? if a car is coming directly at you from the side, you have no more room on the other side to move over, you don't have enough space or power to accelerate out, and aren't able to brake quickly enough to completely avoid the car? btw The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds for humans. a car can quickly change lanes in under half a second. that leaves you with about a quarter second to move your bike to the outside of the lane and stop.

IMO, correct maneuver would have been getting around both cars as soon as as the light turned green, not to be casual about it as you said you did.
Motorcycles are much more nimble than cars, to get around cars from a dead stop at traffic light is not a difficult task, if you were paying attention to the lights turning. Predicting the green light can often save you precious milliseconds that allow you to get away from stopped traffic at lights.*
I don't believe for one bit that Ninja 250 can not out accelerate a car from a dead stop. If you claim that you are not capable of doing so, then that's your lack of riding skill, not the bike lacking ability to accelerate.*

Again, where do you get your numbers from about the human reaction time? provide a source, and explain how it might relate to your case.

How long did it take for you to react to the light turning green? Were you slow to react to the light turning green?
How much time between you start to move and the car overtaking your lane?
How much distance between you and the car prior to the impact?
How fast were you traveling just prior to impact?

you keep saying you need a police report but i don't understand why this would change anything? the girl who hit me fled. the police only had my statement

From what you're saying the police report may be biased and inaccurate?
Maybe there could have been some ways that you could have stopped the car from getting away if you had hit them differently?

Sigh. :bangdesk:

:beatdeadhorse:

Sigh. :bangdesk:

What do posts these contribute to the discussion?
Are you 'above it all' and all the discussion seems pointless to you?
:confused:

This is a discussion forum, let people present their thoughts and not be criticized by non-contributors.
If you have something to say about particular post, go ahead and express your thoughts in a decent manner.

What do posts these contribute to the discussion?
Are you 'above it all' and all the discussion seems pointless to you?
:confused:

This is a discussion forum, let people present their thoughts and not be criticized by non-contributors.
If you have something to say about particular post, go ahead and express your thoughts in a decent manner.
Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!

This whole 3 pages is complete BS, people are quoting entire paragraphs of text then picking out 1 whole ****in word from that to criticize and get some hollier than thou attitudes. Stating you should've done this that and I would've done this and that, therefore I'm better than you....
That is entirely all I/we see from this bullshit, and I know I DON'T GIVE A FLYIN F*CK!!!!! ....
I for sure am not taking any helpful advice for your 3 pages of WHINE!!!

Would you please STFU now?????

Sigh. :bangdesk:

Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!

This whole 3 pages is complete BS, people are quoting entire paragraphs of text then picking out 1 whole ****in word from that to criticize and get some hollier than thou attitudes. Stating you should've done this that and I would've done this and that, therefore I'm better than you....
That is entirely all I/we see from this bullshit, and I know I DON'T GIVE A FLYIN F*CK!!!!! ....
I for sure am not taking any helpful advice for your 3 pages of WHINE!!!

Would you please STFU now?????

This is why I stopped reading this thread haha.

Edit: and I don't mean because of responses like yours. I mean because of the beating a dead horse/hijacking that is going on in this thread.

IMO, correct maneuver would have been getting around both cars as soon as as the light turned green, not to be casual about it as you said you did.


i don't disagree with this however you still didn't answer my question. there will be times when cars are next to you. if you don't think so then you've never been in california.

answers inline in bold:

How long did it take for you to react to the light turning green? Were you slow to react to the light turning green? no, i left the line at the same time they did, but like i said the cars to my left seemed like they were racing eachother or something
How much time between you start to move and the car overtaking your lane? like i said, if you actually read what i say, we were completing the turn, basically crossing the cross-walk after the turn in the intersection... maybe 2-3 second from the time i left the line to the time i got hit?
How much distance between you and the car prior to the impact? a lane of seperation... maybe 6 feet to my left? there was traffic behind both of us
How fast were you traveling just prior to impact? about 25. i probably managed to slow down to 15? before getting hit. just estimates, i obviously wasn't looking at the speedo

From what you're saying the police report may be biased and inaccurate?
Maybe there could have been some ways that you could have stopped the car from getting away if you had hit them differently?
all i can present was my perspective of the incident. maybe she would say a child jumped out of the street in front of her? who knows what she *would* have said. the point is that she fled so noone could get "her side". why would i lie about getting hit by a car? that's not something to brag about. and yes... i'm sure if i impaled myself in her side window she wouldn't have fled... maybe. is that what you would do? i prefer less damage to myself and my bike rather than knowing who hit me.

we're getting off point. and i think after this i'm giving up on trying to tell others what this point is... i'll try to make it as clear as possible though:

there is always a chance that a freak, uncontrollable accident will happen that is out of your control. you may be able to do many many things to reduce those chances and avoid them for a long time, but there is always a chance you don't catch everything. maybe this wasn't the perfect example. i'm not saying noone could have avoided my accident. what i am saying is that if there is a chance you might be involved in an accident (which is anytime you're riding on the street with other cars, in your own flow of traffic, or an opposing flow), why not try to prevent some potential injuries by wearing a damn helmet?

answer me this question: have you ever ridden on an open highway (no center-divide) where there is an opposing flow of traffic? have you ever ridden through a blind intersection? if you've ridden much at all the answer most likely is yes. if the answer is yes, what would you do if for example a drunk ran through that blind intersection at 85mph? nothing. because at that speed there isn't enough time to humanly react. what would you do if a car driving opposite blew out a tire, or was simply being a dick, and swerved, flipping his car, taking up the road with a moving block. "swerve away"? what if there's a wall on the right and more traffic on the left? i'm sure you'll come up with some clever scenario to escape, completely avoiding my point so i'll ask it directly:

why would you put yourself at risk of more serious injury by not wearing gear?

even if you never use it, why would you risk more potential injury by not wearing gear?

is it that you think it'll never happen to you? is it because freak accidents don't happen "to you"? i'm truly sorry you've never seen a freak accident caused by something simple like a blowout or a drunk running a blind red light. it's unfortunate that it happens, but it does. to deny that is, well, denial.

Alex.s there is no point arguing with a forum troll who I am starting to doubt rides a bike or was ever in the military. He is just too cocky and stupid to listen to anyone other than his own greatness. Just put him on ignore and let him think he is god. I will not be responding to his BS that he made up about my accident. I know for a fact there was nothing one could do to avoid it other than just not being the next person in front of her. If not me and my bike it would have been whatever car was there.

Just let it go and leave him to his greatness, eventually it will catch up with him and pop that massive ego he has.

Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!

This whole 3 pages is complete BS, people are quoting entire paragraphs of text then picking out 1 whole ****in word from that to criticize and get some hollier than thou attitudes. Stating you should've done this that and I would've done this and that, therefore I'm better than you....
That is entirely all I/we see from this bullshit, and I know I DON'T GIVE A FLYIN F*CK!!!!! ....
I for sure am not taking any helpful advice for your 3 pages of WHINE!!!

Would you please STFU now?????

This is why I stopped reading this thread haha.

Edit: and I don't mean because of responses like yours. I mean because of the beating a dead horse/hijacking that is going on in this thread.

This is a forum, discussions should be encouraged.

What OP posted was that he wasn't wearing enough gear and riding beyond his capability, combination of both got him into an accident.

Incidents with Alex.S and Smobo maybe be more or less fortunate, but what can we learn from all of them?

I can agree with N Ja that riding cautiously and being aware of your surroundings would definitely improve the chance of not getting into accidents, but ATGATT may not be as effective if you're not paying attention to your surroundings.

Don't start goin off on ally, she didn't do **** wrong...
Maybe...She is merely posting those as her way of saying, get your own f*cking thread stop hijacking the OP's thread!!


+1

This. I keep checking back to see if we've gotten back on OP's original topic. You have a point, however. Unlike most who love to fuel fires and keep arguments going, I can bypass annoying threads that have very little or no helpful information to do with the original topic. :p Thanks for the reminder.

The other day I was riding my Ninja whilst wearing full protective gear. In addition, I didn't lowside, highside or otherwise come in contact with any other object that is destructive to my bike or myself.

:-)

:clapping: :p

The other day I was riding my Ninja whilst wearing full protective gear. In addition, I didn't lowside, highside or otherwise come in contact with any other object that is destructive to my bike or myself.

:-)

:allhail:
:thumbup:

i don't disagree with this however you still didn't answer my question. there will be times when cars are next to you. if you don't think so then you've never been in california.

Does California applies for the rest of the world? Get out of CA once in a while, it may be good for you to see the rest of the world.

answers inline in bold:

all i can present was my perspective of the incident.

Of course, that's the reason that you personally could not have avoided the accident, because you lack the foresight to get yourself out of trouble spots in the first place.

maybe she would say a child jumped out of the street in front of her? who knows what she *would* have said. the point is that she fled so noone could get "her side". why would i lie about getting hit by a car? that's not something to brag about. and yes... i'm sure if i impaled myself in her side window she wouldn't have fled... maybe. is that what you would do? i prefer less damage to myself and my bike rather than knowing who hit me.

That's your provocative. She 'hit-n-ran' according to you, I would have no trouble getting to her for what she deserved during and after the accident.

we're getting off point. and i think after this i'm giving up on trying to tell others what this point is... i'll try to make it as clear as possible though:there is always a chance that a freak, uncontrollable accident will happen that is out of your control. you may be able to do many many things to reduce those chances and avoid them for a long time, but there is always a chance you don't catch everything. maybe this wasn't the perfect example. i'm not saying noone could have avoided my accident. what i am saying is that if there is a chance you might be involved in an accident (which is anytime you're riding on the street with other cars, in your own flow of traffic, or an opposing flow), why not try to prevent some potential injuries by wearing a damn helmet?

I never said all incidents are avoidable, sure there is always a chance, but if you ride cautiously and be aware of your surrounding at all time on your motorcycle, you are less likely to get into accidents. Wearing gear alone is not as effective as avoiding accidents by being cautious or knowing the capabilities of your vehicle and controlling it.

answer me this question: have you ever ridden on an open highway (no center-divide) where there is an opposing flow of traffic? have you ever ridden through a blind intersection? if you've ridden much at all the answer most likely is yes.

Open highway without devide? what does that mean?
opposing flow of traffic? what's every road without one-way?
I've ridden through blind intersections, but not without checking for clearance.
I don't see the point of your questions.

You failed to provide the answers to my questions in my previous post. I will not answer any more of your questions until you do so.


Alex.s there is no point arguing with a forum troll who I am starting to doubt rides a bike or was ever in the military. He is just too cocky and stupid to listen to anyone other than his own greatness. Just put him on ignore and let him think he is god. I will not be responding to his BS that he made up about my accident. I know for a fact there was nothing one could do to avoid it other than just not being the next person in front of her. If not me and my bike it would have been whatever car was there.

Just let it go and leave him to his greatness, eventually it will catch up with him and pop that massive ego he has.

Just calling someone a troll doesn't make your arguments any more valid.

I never call you names or call you stupid or arrogant, tough your ideas may be.
I pose valid possibilities to your accident and how you could have avoided it.

You only see what you could do, but failed to see other possibilities, we all have that in common in life, but important thing is to learn from your mistakes.

I never revealed my mistakes so there is nothing for you to pick up and hit me against.
That's the reason you're giving up.

That looks really painful :( I don't think anyone makes it through life without getting some scars though. It sounds like you've learnt from this. Hopefully you'll keep enjoying riding after you've healed up... this time with gear obviously.

Sadly you've had to learn from your own experience. For everyone else: watch this (http://www.rockthegear.org/index.php?/home/view/how_to_avoid_skinning_yourself_alive/).

Vitamin C is the thing you need to help your body repair its skin - I guess all your best advice will come from your doctor though.

N Ja,

like you said, not all accidents are avoidable. with that statement in mind, is there any reason to not take precautions to try to minimize potential injury caused by such an unavoidable accident?

Sorry about your crash. To answer your question about how long it will take to heal--to the point that you are not in pain--my estimate is a minimum of ten weeks.

As a former bicycle racer, I am very familiar with road rash.

When the scabs come off, use lots of Aloe Vera. Don't use Aloe if there is still weeping and excessive sensitivity.

It was a long thread. I will say, and have said so before on this forum, that the mantra "There are two kinds of motorcyclists--those who have crashed and those who will" That, folks, is a myth.

I have been riding since 1958--mostly touring bikes. I had a Ninja for two years, and now have a 700cc Sport Touring bike. I have never had an accident in a cage or on a motorcycle.

Why? 1.) Advanced MSF Course every spring.
2.) One Track day a year minimum
3.) ATTGATT
4.) Safety check the bike each morning

Cage: Defensive driving course once a year. Keeping the car in top condition.
Checking tire pressure weekly.

I am 69 years old and plan to ride a long time.
The last time I checked, I have logged 350,000+ miles on my bikes. I stopped counting--kind of like birthdays when you get to my age.

I have been riding since 1958--mostly touring bikes. I had a Ninja for two years, and now have a 700cc Sport Touring bike. I have never had an accident in a cage or on a motorcycle.

Why? 1.) Advanced MSF Course every spring.
2.) One Track day a year minimum
3.) ATTGATT
4.) Safety check the bike each morning




You...are my hero. :thumbup: No need to play Superman at a redlight to make you a hero either! :p

It was a long thread. I will say, and have said so before on this forum, that the mantra "There are two kinds of motorcyclists--those who have crashed and those who will" That, folks, is a myth.

I have been riding since 1958--mostly touring bikes. I had a Ninja for two years, and now have a 700cc Sport Touring bike. I have never had an accident in a cage or on a motorcycle.

Why? 1.) Advanced MSF Course every spring.
2.) One Track day a year minimum
3.) ATTGATT
4.) Safety check the bike each morning

Cage: Defensive driving course once a year. Keeping the car in top condition.
Checking tire pressure weekly.

I am 69 years old and plan to ride a long time.
The last time I checked, I have logged 350,000+ miles on my bikes. I stopped counting--kind of like birthdays when you get to my age.

I have avoided getting a motorcycle all this time because of the accident stats and scare stories. At some point it clicked that these accidents and injuries are far less likely to occur if I do the kind of things you've mentioned.

I rode a motorcycle for the first time this month and loved it. It's possible I will be in an accident, but I'm setting my focus on safe riding practices and safe journeys; just like target fixation is bad on a micro level, I suspect it's probably bad on a macro level too. I think focusing on an expectation that you will fall may way play a part in causing you to fall. That philosophy extends beyond motorcycles I think. Focus on what you want. This guy expresses it quite well:

Choose not to fall.
nRSOe-rDa9Y

Amazing, huh!

I am making my kids watch that video. A breath of fresh air....

VERY cool video. Choose not to fall. Target fixate on that. I like how you think, Akima! :) Nice!

cannot believe what I have been reading on this thread. typical "it wont happen to me" because "I am a save driver". I really want to call people names but I wont, it really would not make a difference.

Alex I don't know why people did not understand your accident, it was perfectly clear to me the first time and English is not even my first language, no collage ether. sombo it could be because I also am ET lol.

All I have to say (and some have been said before) is they are called accidents for a reason, just because you are very good at avoiding them does not mean you will avoid ALL of them. To say that you don't always need to ride with gear because you will rely on your riding skills does not make sense to me.

all accidents are avoidable in hindsight.

to alex and sombo, I would just stop wasting my time with them.

I will continue to ride with my gear regardless of how safe of a rider I become.

I sincerely hope no one has to be proven wrong.

Choose not to fall, how about choose not to get into accidents?

cannot believe what I have been reading on this thread. typical "it wont happen to me" because "I am a save driver". I really want to call people names but I wont, it really would not make a difference.

If accidents do happen to a person, do you consider that person a good or safe rider?
Why do you feel the need to call names?

Alex I don't know why people did not understand your accident, it was perfectly clear to me the first time and English is not even my first language, no collage ether. sombo it could be because I also am ET lol.

Critical thinking is beyond understanding of descriptions.
Maybe English 102 is what you need to provide you more insight beyond simple reading and understanding.

All I have to say (and some have been said before) is they are called accidents for a reason, just because you are very good at avoiding them does not mean you will avoid ALL of them. To say that you don't always need to ride with gear because you will rely on your riding skills does not make sense to me.

Nobody is claiming that he or she can avoid all accidents.
If riding skills are less important than riding gear, any paraleigic can ride a motorcycle if you put a full suit and a helmet on them, does that make sense to you?

all accidents are avoidable in hindsight.

to alex and sombo, I would just stop wasting my time with them.

By asking another person how they might react in response of their own accident, that's asking hindsight, wouldn't you agree?

I will continue to ride with my gear regardless of how safe of a rider I become.

I sincerely hope no one has to be proven wrong.

Do you think wearing gear alone is going to reduce your chance of getting into accidents?

hey A I really don't care to change your mind that much, I really don't want to get in to this over analyze and quote game.

you can NOT choose to "not get in to accidents" or "not to fall". that is a silly statement. if your talking about the power of the mind and visualizing then say that, you can still get into an accident regardless. If someone had one accident I would not consider them unsafe, if they had many accidents then I would probably consider them unsafe. Why? because safe riders CAN have an accident, if you have record its probably more on the individual. I don't need to take an English class to understand simple forum post, I did not practice critical thinking when reading alex's post. I was not trying to solve a problem lol, just actually reading each word with out assuming, its in black and white.

If your not claiming that you can avoid all accidents than you can agree that you should wear your gear regardless of how safe you are right? btw I never said gear is more important than riding skills, nether did alex or sombo, riding skills are not in question here and that is the problem you seem to ignore, again they are call accidents for a reason. that's your third strike, you are on the ignore list hahaha no JK :D.

what I am trying to say is that riding skills are not related to riding gear at all, completely different things one gets you out of accidents the other protects you once (if) you have an accident. no one is arguing that except you and J. the reason I said every accident is avoidable in hindsight is because no matter what you will always find a way to say it was the riders fault and the accident was avoidable.

When it comes to vehicles ...
There are NO "accidents"..
In 1 way shape or form it is a lapse/lack in judgement/paying attention EVERY TIME... Whether that is yours or someone else's fault.
The term "accident" is a b*llsh*t word people used to ease their conscious!

I didn't have an "accident" on my 04 250.. I f*cked up and crashed it!

When it comes to vehicles ...
There are NO "accidents"..
In 1 way shape or form it is a lapse/lack in judgement/paying attention EVERY TIME... Whether that is yours or someone else's fault.
The term "accident" is a b*llsh*t word people used to ease their conscious!

I didn't have an "accident" on my 04 250.. I f*cked up and crashed it!

i agree with you, "Whether that is yours or someone else's fault" so no matter how safe you are you cant control someone else.

i agree with you, "Whether that is yours or someone else's fault" so no matter how safe you are you cant control someone else.

Nope can't control them at all, you can try to predict their actions.
You can shoot them for frakin up your bike :thumbup: :D

Natural selection will take it's course, i guess.

You're right, I suppose those that ride with concentration and caution will outlive those that don't.

there are no accidents = FATE
:p
FATE SUCKS :p

You're right, I suppose those that ride with concentration and caution will outlive those that don't.

Correct, but those that do the same AND wear their gear will outlive the ones that dont.

Correct, but those that do the same AND wear their gear will outlive the ones that dont.

I never denied that :p Im just saying between the two, one is more important to have than the other :thumbup:

in my opinion they're both important. apparently certain people disagree?

in my opinion they're both important. apparently certain people disagree?

Well you know I don't disagree. :thumbup: :D

no gear, no tpaying attention....could've been different in many ways. so, you got the outcome you inheredited through decisions you made immediately and much earlier.


you'll heal..but i hope the lesson learned stays with you as you ride on

I don't need to take an English class to understand simple forum post, I did not practice critical thinking when reading alex's post. I was not trying to solve a problem lol, just actually reading each word with out assuming, its in black and white.

Alex. S clearly stated that he was 'being casual' when his accident occurred, do you think if he was 'not being casual' his accident could have been avoided or did you just misread that part?
Maybe not only did you not practice critical thinking, but also not reading carefully?

in my opinion they're both important. apparently certain people disagree?

Which one do you think is more important that the other?

Which is absolutely necessary and the other one might be optional?

I didn't have an "accident" on my 04 250.. I f*cked up and [I]crashed it!

On purpose? Or by accident?

Alex. S clearly stated that he was 'being casual' when his accident occurred, do you think if he was 'not being casual' his accident could have been avoided or did you just misread that part?
Maybe not only did you not practice critical thinking, but also not reading carefully?



Which one do you think is more important that the other?

Which is absolutely necessary and the other one might be optional?

Hey 'A' I think is time to admit you are wrong, no one EVER disputed that riding skills are more important than than gear, it's common sense. What you have been saying is that because of your good riding skills you have the option of not wearing gear. Come on, if we were to follow your advice sooner or later we are going to regret it because no one ever plans to get into an accident.

At this point I am not going to argue with you about alex's accident, it's not about that, it never has been. He was just giving you an example. It might be his fault (imo it wasnt) but that's one insident, you can't tell me that ALL Accidents are preventible and it is because of this that gear is not an optio.

In case you don't get it i am going to make it very clear. RIDING SKILL IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR RIDING GEAR. Riding gear is not a substitute for skill, they are independent from each other and you need both.

If you don't wear gear be cause you cannot afford it that's what different story.

Hey 'A' I think is time to admit you are wrong, no one EVER disputed that riding skills are more important than than gear, it's common sense. What you have been saying is that because of your good riding skills you have the option of not wearing gear. Come on, if we were to follow your advice sooner or later we are going to regret it because no one ever plans to get into an accident.

I'm wrong about what?
Following my advice, what advice?
Sooner or later we all die, too.. We all make choices at our own accord, but do not consider no one else could do what you can't.

In case you don't get it i am going to make it very clear. RIDING SKILL IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR RIDING GEAR.

If you don't wear gear be cause you cannot afford it that's what different story.

You finally got it.

It's just a simple fact that riding gear is not necessary but unlike riding skill.

Another simple fact is that majority of riders in the world are not riding ATGATT and accidents are not happening to majority of them.

Whether or not riders wear gear is not an necessity when compared to riding skill.
Avoiding accidents have nothing to do with what gear you choose to wear, but all with awareness and riding skill.

All those who keep badger ATGATT and how their accidents can not be avoided no matter what they did are not willing accept that there are possibilities beyond their recognition and abilities.

thats going to make for a gnarly scar.

N Ja,

like you said, not all accidents are avoidable. with that statement in mind, is there any reason to not take precautions to try to minimize potential injury caused by such an unavoidable accident?

Wearing gear alone is never going to avoid accidents from occuring, especially if you don't pay attention and 'be casual' about what you're doing while riding.

More effective way of 'minimize potential injury' is not to be 'casual', pay attention to what you're doing, your surroudings and control your vehicle at all times. For you may simply avoid all accidents that may cause potential injury.. but you may still have accidents.

Unavoidable accidents are more likely to be caused by unprepared or distracted participants... being human we often blame our own inabilities to 'unavoidable accidents'.

ok, im sorry OP. I didn't mean to hijack your thread, I just get carried away at the opportunity to argue with somebody lol :o

ok, im sorry OP. I didn't mean to hijack your thread, I just get carried away at the opportunity to argue with somebody lol :o

Duly noted. :p

http://www.tamemymind.com/blog/images2007/smiley-bangheadonwall-yellow.gif

Sure there will always something waiting for you maybe, but I know enough not to get myself into accidents

You are wrong because You are claiming that someone else might get into an accident, but not you because you know enough. you also agree that not all accidents are avoidable. So pick one please.

I ride without gear when I know I do not take unnecessary risks and be cautious of my surroundings.

Again, riding with out gear knowing that you cannot avoid all accidents, someone reading this might think is a good idea to follow your steps.

You are wrong because You are claiming that someone else might get into an accident, but not you because you know enough. you also agree that not all accidents are avoidable. So pick one please.

You're not making sense. I never said that I can avoid all accidentsbecause I know enough.

Again, riding with out gear knowing that you cannot avoid all accidents, someone reading this might think is a good idea to follow your steps.

We are all adults here, or at lest mature enough to do whatever they wish to do. Consequences can be more than we realize, that's just a matter of life.

We are all adults here, or at lest mature enough to do whatever they wish to do. Consequences can be more than we realize, that's just a matter of life.

from what i've seen there are more than a few children on the board

You're not making sense. I never said that I can avoid all accidentsbecause I know enough.



We are all adults here, or at lest mature enough to do whatever they wish to do. Consequences can be more than we realize, that's just a matter of life.

'A' it's all in black and white, you might have not said you can avoid ALL accidents but you claim you don't need to ride with gear because you know enough not to get in to accidents. The one that doesn't make sense is YOU, you can't pick both. Ether you agree that you should always ride with gear because not all accidents can be avoided, or you agree that because of your skills riding gear is an option because you don't plan on getting into an accident. answer this, you admit that you cannot avoid all accidents, than why do you choose to ride with out gear? You claim you only ride without gear when you know you will not take any unnecessary risk, the fact is that you don't need to take unnecessary risk to get in to an accident. I have notice you avoid to actually explain yourself and just try to look for holes in our statements, So please stop just quoting and actually give an explanation.

On purpose? Or by accident?

By mistake, perhaps? Mistake is no accident.

When you admit mistakes you learn from them, when you blame em on the outside forces you give up a chance to fix the real problem.

'A' it's all in black and white, you might have not said you can avoid ALL accidents but you claim you don't need to ride with gear because you know enough not to get in to accidents. The one that doesn't make sense is YOU, you can't pick both. Ether you agree that you should always ride with gear because not all accidents can be avoided, or you agree that because of your skills riding gear is an option because you don't plan on getting into an accident. answer this, you admit that you cannot avoid all accidents, than why do you choose to ride with out gear? You claim you only ride without gear when you know you will not take any unnecessary risk, the fact is that you don't need to take unnecessary risk to get in to an accident. I have notice you avoid to actually explain yourself and just try to look for holes in our statements, So please stop just quoting and actually give an explanation.

Maybe proper English is too difficult for you to understand.
Just read my post as they are typed, do not try to 'put words in my mouth'.

Gears are not necessary to avoid accidents but riding skills are, rider paying attention is also a necessity to avoid accident, not wearing gear.
If you don't have any riding skill or if you do not pay attention to what you are doing; you are more likely to get into accidents while riding a motorcycle, wouldn't you agree?

Why do you think riding with gear is necessary to avoid accidents?

Choosing to ride with or without gear while riding is a personal provocative.
Why does that need explanation?

I choose to ride without gear sometimes simply because I choose to do so.

If you choose to ride ATGATT, that's your choice, your provocative; but don't think wearing gear guarantees that you are going to avoid all accidents or injuries.

When I ride 2 mile away from my house to pick up diner or go to the grocery store. Most of the time, I choose not to wear gear, just wear my regular clothes and sneakers.
I rely on my riding skills, I pay attention to what I''m doing and my surroundings. Over 12 years, I mange never to have an incident (close calls yes, I've even had gotten a flat tire), regardless of the statistics.
Because wearing gear is not necessary, nor does it guarantee to avoid accidents while riding your motorcycle, that's why I choose not to wear gear sometimes. Is that so difficult to understand?

Maybe proper English is too difficult for you to understand.
Just read my post as they are typed, do not try to 'put words in my mouth'.

Gears are not necessary to avoid accidents but riding skills are, rider paying attention is also a necessity to avoid accident, not wearing gear.
If you don't have any riding skill or if you do not pay attention to what you are doing; you are more likely to get into accidents while riding a motorcycle, wouldn't you agree?

Why do you think riding with gear is necessary to avoid accidents?

Choosing to ride with or without gear while riding is a personal provocative.
Why does that need explanation?

I choose to ride without gear sometimes simply because I choose to do so.

If you choose to ride ATGATT, that's your choice, your provocative; but don't think wearing gear guarantees that you are going to avoid all accidents or injuries.

When I ride 2 mile away from my house to pick up diner or go to the grocery store. Most of the time, I choose not to wear gear, just wear my regular clothes and sneakers.
I rely on my riding skills, I pay attention to what I''m doing and my surroundings. Over 12 years, I mange never to have an incident (close calls yes, I've even had gotten a flat tire), regardless of the statistics.
Because wearing gear is not necessary, nor does it guarantee to avoid accidents while riding your motorcycle, that's why I choose not to wear gear sometimes. Is that so difficult to understand?

http://www.chimpout.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

No one ever said that gear will prevent you from an accident. This continues to be your argument all along despite all of us clearly stating that gear will only reduce the chances of serious injury ONCE the accident has occurred.

:popcorn:

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1nbsr8HROY).

On purpose? Or by accident?

Thats funny

Maybe proper English is too difficult for you to understand.


If you choose to ride ATGATT, that's your choice, your provocative;


Ive read all the post here this one stands out to me.
Im a little confused.

If I wear my gear, Im provoking others into trying to run me over?? What exactly am I provoking by wearing gear???

as far as i can tell here's how things stand:


everyone: believes skill and caution are the most important factors in determining if you get in an accident. it also seems everyone agrees regardless of skill or caution, there is a chance, however slight, that an accident can occur due to reasons beyond a rider's control, whatever the chances, however slim, there is a chance. however remote, whether its 1 in a billion or less doesn't change the fact that there is some chance of it happening.

am i with everyone so far?

me: believe its possible for me to get in an accident, so i prepare for such an occasion by wearing gear, "just in case"

"A" & N Ja: believe they are skilled enough to avoid accidents well enough to justify not wearing gear when they don't feel like it, even though they do believe that accidents can happen at any time (even if the chances are 1 in a billion), they believe they won't because of their skill, or their caution, or something that they're doing.

also apparently it's an important factor that some people can't afford gear... although i'm not sure how that factors into people who can afford gear but choose not to.

noone: believes gear prevents accidents.

"A": but apparently believes that gear will make a rider more likely to take risks, which will up their chances of getting in an accident




did i miss anything? am i wrong about anything here?

Maybe proper English is too difficult for you to understand.
Just read my post as they are typed, do not try to 'put words in my mouth'.

Choosing to ride with or without gear while riding is a personal provocative.

If you choose to ride ATGATT, that's your choice, your provocative

pre·rog·a·tive/priˈrägətiv/Noun
1. A right or privilege exclusive to a particular individual or class.

pre·rog·a·tive/priˈrägətiv/Noun
1. A right or privilege exclusive to a particular individual or class.

and here i thought he meant

2. Arousing sexual desire or interest, esp. deliberately.

pre·rog·a·tive/priˈrägətiv/Noun
1. A right or privilege exclusive to a particular individual or class.

So I do or dont understand proper english??
:p

So I do or dont understand proper english??
:p

You understood what he typed correctly :D

It was the word that he used that was incorrect.

did i miss anything? am i wrong about anything here?

I think you covered it all, that's the way I see it also. We'll wait from a response from A or N Ja.

:popcorn:

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1nbsr8HROY).

Gay and boring.

So you know you're going to defecate sooner or later, why not wear a diaper all the time?

I'm heading out for a ride, without gear and I will enjoy it just as much with with gear, maybe be more so.

So you know you're going to defecate sooner or later, why not wear a diaper all the time?

I'm heading out for a ride, without gear and I will enjoy it just as much with with gear, maybe be more so.

if i randomly crapped myself without warning, i would. thats why they make depends

also, crapping yourself typically doesn't put you in the hospital. as you said before, not a very good analogy.

So you know you're going to defecate sooner or later, why not wear a diaper all the time?

I'm heading out for a ride, without gear and I will enjoy it just as much with with gear, maybe be more so.

Oh I get it, and here I thought we were talking about motorcycle "accidents" when we were really talking about Scooter "accidents". My advice to you is that you wear your gear (dippers) all the time, gear will make it less messy in the event of an accident.

http://www.buypowerchair.com/images/scooter-store-powerchair.jpg

Sounds like you don't know your body very well and allowed yourself to get to the point of no return before reaching a bathroom. (sounds familiar? Look @ Pg3)

I still have not heard a valid point from you, and probably never will...

Oh yeah have fun taking a "ride" in your house.

if i randomly crapped myself without warning, i would. thats why they make depends

You're the one getting into 'unavoidable accidents'.
With all the accidents that you think you're going to have, I'm not surprised that you're not wearing a diaper just to prevent your 'unavoidable accidents'.

also, crapping yourself typically doesn't put you in the hospital. as you said before, not a very good analogy.

Not all motorcycle related injuries do not make people go to the hospital neither, poor analogy right back at ya.


Oh I get it, and here I thought we were talking about motorcycle "accidents" when we were really talking about Scooter "accidents". My advice to you is that you wear your gear (dippers) all the time, gear will make it less messy in the event of an accident.

http://www.buypowerchair.com/images/scooter-store-powerchair.jpg

Sounds like you don't know your body very well and allowed yourself to get to the point of no return before reaching a bathroom. (sounds familiar? Look @ Pg3)

I still have not heard a valid point from you, and probably never will...

Oh yeah have fun taking a "ride" in your house.

You want to wear gear when you ride, wear a diaper.. for me, gears are optional for riding. you take it whatever way you want.. just don't forget to wear you diaper, baby. :thumbup:

BTW, that picture you posted is not even a 2-wheel vehicle.

You're the one getting into 'unavoidable accidents'.
With all the accidents that you think you're going to have, I'm not surprised that you're not wearing a diaper just to prevent your 'unavoidable accidents'.

Not all motorcycle related injuries do not make people go to the hospital neither, poor analogy right back at ya.

You want to wear gear when you ride, wear a diaper.. for me, gears are optional for riding. you take it whatever way you want.. just don't forget to wear you diaper, baby.

BTW, that picture you posted is not even a 2-wheel vehicle.



hahaha, wow you are getting really sloppy with your responses now, not even making sense anymore (never really did make sense but now its just ridiculous)

Let me make it easy for you, this is your last chance to actually explain your side. I will try to make it as simple as possible, pay attention now.

You know you cannot avoid ALL accidents right? (y/n)
Sometimes you choose to not wear gear right? (y/n)
You choose to not wear gear because of your skills, and you never plan to get into and accident right? (y/n)

i will continue once you actually answer the questions(simple yes and no please), if you ever do...

I feel like you're all on a carousel of stupidity at this point. Over Half this thread is off topic. Some will think that this is about Alex.S's accident when he's not even the OP.

ALL OF YOU, JUST LET IT GO.

I feel like you're all on a carousel of stupidity at this point. Over Half this thread is off topic. Some will think that this is about Alex.S's accident when he's not even the OP.

ALL OF YOU, JUST LET IT GO.

you are right, but we are almost done here. I just want to see if A is actually going to answer the questions or if hes just going to go off track again.

hahaha, wow you are getting really sloppy with your responses now, not even making sense anymore (never really did make sense but now its just ridiculous)

Let me make it easy for you, this is your last chance to actually explain your side. I will try to make it as simple as possible, pay attention now.

I am paying attention.. now.

ALL [/B]accidents right? (y/n)

I do know I can not avoid all accidents, I never said I could. What's your point?

not [/B]wear gear right? (y/n)

Yes, I think it is pretty obvious that I do not ride with gear all the time, I think I've repeated myself many times, are you paying attention?

skills[/B], and you never plan to get into and accident right? (y/n)

I choose not to wear gear sometimes because I rely on paying attention to what I am doing and being aware of my surrounding to know how to maneuver my way out of accidents that are avoidable.
So far, over 12 years of riding, I've never had an accident riding without gear.

No amount of gear you wear is going to help you avoid accidents if you do not have riding skill or don't pay attention to your surroundings.

No, I don't think anyone ever plan to get into an accident, if you plan to get into accidents, they are not accidents, they are intentional incidents.

ever [/B]do...

Go ahead and answer my previous questions, please.


I feel like you're all on a carousel of stupidity at this point. Over Half this thread is off topic. Some will think that this is about Alex.S's accident when he's not even the OP.

ALL OF YOU, JUST LET IT GO.

As long as discussion is related to accidents and gear, I see the to be on-topic. If you feel that this is off-topic, have nothing to contribute, then do not participate.

Don't just order people to stop it when you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, like you are above it all.

:popcorn:

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1nbsr8HROY).

What does OP mean?

Original post (or original poster).

Original post (or original poster).

I knew it had something to do with posting lol

I feel like you're all on a carousel of stupidity at this point. Over Half this thread is off topic. Some will think that this is about Alex.S's accident when he's not even the OP.

ALL OF YOU, JUST LET IT GO.

:thumbup:

:popcorn:

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1nbsr8HROY).
What does OP mean?
It obvious. The only reason this girl did not crash was because she was wearing shorts and flip flops. :p

Take the guy in the video below, his problem was he was wearing a helmet.
syvYc-vtT4Q

It obvious. The only reason this girl did not crash was because she was wearing shorts and flip flops. :p

Take the guy in the video below, his problem was he was wearing a helmet.
syvYc-vtT4Q

You went down like a dumb f*ck because you're a dumb f**k. Simple logic. He admitted it lol

Great, you are still getting off track but we are making progress. Simple yes and no would have sufficed, could have done with out the extra fluff.

I guess you just have not read our post or choose to ignore parts of them, for some reason you continue to argue the followingNo amount of gear you wear is going to help you avoid accidents if you do not have riding skill or don't pay attention to your surroundings.let me make this clear WE AGREE WITH YOU. No one ever disagreed with you.

Moving on, now I am just going to quote some things you have said so you don't forget.

Sure there will always something waiting for you maybe, but I know enough not to get myself into accidents. Look at question 1

I don't plan to go down ever during my rides, by being cautious and not taking risks beyond my preparedness. Look at question 1

ATGATT may not be as effective if you're not paying attention to your surroundings.
What? How is protective gear not effective? 2 different things bud, one prevents accidents (skill) the other protects your body IF an accident occurs.

Quote: Originally Posted by alex.s
does anyone plan on going down?
Most likely, more than you think.. I spend more time planning for ways out of possible accidents.
Really? People plan to go down? I think people prepare to go down, as in wear protection incase they go down.

Choose not to fall, how about choose not to get into accidents
Again look at question 1. This comment just blows my mind.

Thanks for answering the questions. To see my point all you have to do is ask the questions in reverse order and see if that makes sense to you.

Now please tell me if this makes sense.

I know not all accidents are avoidable. I choose to not wear gear sometimes because I Choose not to fall, choose not to get into accidents, I know enough not to get myself into accidents, I don't plan to go down ever during my rides.

That was you all along until your last post. You are finally coming around, slowly but still.

I choose not to wear gear sometimes because I rely on paying attention to what I am doing and being aware of my surrounding to know how to maneuver my way out of accidents that are avoidable.

I want to believe that all along what you really have been meaning to say is that you know riding with out gear is risky and unsafe and you meditate that risk by riding safely, however you understand that there is a chance that you can go down. You accept this risk and understand that no matter how safe you are while riding, it is always better (for body protection)to ride with gear.

You will probably continue to say you don't get in to accidents because you don't plan on them and of your superior riding skill.

Great, you are still getting off track but we are making progress. Simple yes and no would have sufficed, could have done with out the extra fluff.

Your questions are stupid and I'm beginning to think you are stupid, too; since you still fail to answer my questions from previous post like you said you would.

I guess you just have not read our post or choose to ignore parts of them, for some reason you continue to argue the following let me make this clear WE AGREE WITH YOU. No one ever disagreed with you.

You agree with me because there is nothing wrong with what I said in my posts in regard to the topic.

Moving on, now I am just going to quote some things you have said so you don't forget.

Look at question 1

Look at question 1

What is question 1?

What? How is protective gear not effective?

Wearing protective gear does not prevent accident from happening.
Wearing protective gear only reduce the injuries that you might receive if you get into an accident.

2 different things bud, one prevents accidents (skill) the other protects your body IF an accident occurs.

So what, I've said that all along.

Really? People plan to go down? I think people prepare to go down, as in wear protection incase they go down.

By definition, 'accidents' are not planned, only planned incidents are planned and prepared ahead of time.
If anyone plans or prepares to go down, that is not an accident, that is a planned incident.

Again look at question 1. This comment just blows my mind.[qoute]

Whatever blows your mind, if you do not understand something or think it is impossible to accomplish; don't presume that it is not possible for anyone else.

Thanks for answering the questions. To see my point all you have to do is ask the questions in reverse order and see if that makes sense to you.

Your turn to answer some questions, like you said you would.

Now please tell me if this makes sense.

I know not all accidents are avoidable. I choose to not wear gear sometimes because I Choose not to fall, choose not to get into accidents, I know enough not to get myself into accidents, I don't plan to go down ever during my rides.
That was you all along until your last post. You are finally coming around, slowly but still.
No, what you wrote are not what I said in my previous post.
They are not along my post, you should just take my words as they are, stop trying to read more into them and reconstruct them with your words since English is your second language.

I want to believe that all along what you really have been meaning to say is that you know riding with out gear is risky and unsafe and you meditate that risk by riding safely, however you understand that there is a chance that you can go down. You accept this risk and understand that no matter how safe you are while riding, it is always better (for body protection)to ride with gear.

Believe what you want, no one is asking you.
Riding without gear is only risky if you take unnecessary risks, do not pay attention to what you're doing and your surroundings.
I don't agree that it is always better to ride with gear, that's a different topic.

You will probably continue to say you don't get in to accidents because you don't plan on them and of your superior riding skill.

Yes, if you have ridden for over 12 years gone through a few accidents without a scratch, maybe you can believe in yourself, too.

Until you have ridden a motorcycle for over twelve years and survive a few accidents without a scratch; if there is something you can not comprehend do not assume that is not possible.
If you can manage to survive that long. Meanwhile, keep ATGATT if you believe that is more effective, time will tell.

how long do you think will it take for the road rash to heal?

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab157/UjaasG35/IMAG0025.jpg


I may be a little late getting here, but this is the first I've seen this thread. Sorry you got messed up like that.

Try Neopsorin with pain relief - it works really good on wounds like what you have. You may need several tubes. After a few days to a week, you an switch to a cortisone itch cream. The cortisone will accelerate the healing. Without it, it will take months for wounds like that to heal.

Hope you get well soon.

What is question 1?
I thought you would have the brains to figure this one out, obviously i was wrong.

So what, I've said that all along.
No you have not, I quote:
being aware of your surroundings would definitely improve the chance of not getting into accidents, but ATGATT may not be as effective if you're not paying attention to your surroundings.
what you have been saying is that ATGATT is not effective at improving your chances of not getting into a accident, of course it doesn't, it protects not prevent. Please tell me that's not what you said...


By definition, 'accidents' are not planned, only planned incidents are planned and prepared ahead of time.
If anyone plans or prepares to go down, that is not an accident, that is a planned incident.
congrats you can define a word, however you lack common sense. What you are trying to say is that if before I drive my car I put my seat belt on I am planning to have an accident? and so if anything happens it was a planned incident? lol there is definitely something loose in your head.

No, what you wrote are not what I said in my previous post. They are not along my post, you should just take my words as they are, stop trying to read more into them and reconstruct them with your words since English is your second language.
that is exactly what you said, I copied and pasted word for word and added a few comas. all you have to do is go back and read your post. I made it easy and quoted all that on my last post, go take a look then please tell me that's not what you said..,

Riding without gear is only risky if you take unnecessary risks
you said yourself you cant prevent all accidents, so you would agree anytime you ride you're at risk. therefor one should always wear gear to decrease injuries.

I can see that all common sense escapes you. Clearly you don't understand yourself and I am tired of making it simple for you to grasp it. You keep denying what you said even though its in black and white. You keep fighting ghost and fail to elaborate.

Like I said before, I don't really care to change your mind. If you ever decide to actually debate the topic, I might post a reply. until then I am done. I think I have said enough and its clear to everyone else that you are delusional. It doesn't take 12 years to figure out that you are wrong. Good luck out there.

btw your little jabs about language don't bother me a bit, its clear that I can still understand better than you.

Thanks to the OP, showed your pictures too a few riders and it made them change their mind. converted some of them from NGATT to MGATT atleast.


Lots of great points in this post... only with certain people. Reading all these post can see how common, common sense is. i like how defensive some people are in this thread and cont to try and prove they are right beyond without a doubt. could be a bad analogy but it reminded me of my co worker trying to persuade/convince me that i'm black instead of being asian. if not then i'm clearly aware that i have a bad way of describing what i really mean.

somebody pass the popcorn and depends please

Heres the funny thing.
HE WILL BE RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT.
He will NEVER admit to an accident, WHEN he has one.
I will sleep well tonight knowing when he crashes without gear, he will spend hours thinking of this thread.

Dont wear your gear. ITS ALL GOOD, ITS YOUR SKIN. "A"

BELOW IS FOR ANYONE WHO THINKS THEY HAVE THE "SKILL" TO AVOID AN ACCIDENT

I have spent countless miles on the track, countless miles on the street. I know how to ride. BETTER than most. Im careful, overly careful at times.
1 week ago I laid down my bike 150 yards from my home. It happens, it is the nature of riding a 2 wheeled vehicle. YOU WILL CRASH. You may have control of your bike. THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN AVOID EVERY ACCIDENT. If you believe you can, YOU ARE A FOOL.

Do you mind telling me how this one was "avoidable"??

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80364

Guess you would have stood the bike straight up and rode into the gravel and off the cliff??
Better yet, you would have leaned more left and blazed into the oncoming lanes on a blind corner.
YEAH RIGHT.

ALL THE SKILL IN THE WORLD WOULD NOT HELP AVOID THIS ACCIDENT.

Guess you have a flying 250 and you would have hit the hover button located next to the kill switch and just hopped over the other bike.

Go out to your 250 raise the kickstand and get off the bike and walk away. If your 250 will stay upright all by itself, (no stands, no string, no wire etc) take a vid and post it here.
Ill buy your bike as its the only bike in the world that defys gravity and can fly its way out of an accident.

I will then agree that you will NEVER go down, and you are the greatest EVER.

Otherwise good luck with you road rash. Hope it doesnt get infected.

Heres the funny thing.
HE WILL BE RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT.
He will NEVER admit to an accident, WHEN he has one.
I will sleep well tonight knowing when he crashes without gear, he will spend hours thinking of this thread.

Dont wear your gear. ITS ALL GOOD, ITS YOUR SKIN. "A"

BELOW IS FOR ANYONE WHO THINKS THEY HAVE THE "SKILL" TO AVOID AN ACCIDENT

I have spent countless miles on the track, countless miles on the street. I know how to ride. BETTER than most. Im careful, overly careful at times.
1 week ago I laid down my bike 150 yards from my home. It happens, it is the nature of riding a 2 wheeled vehicle. YOU WILL CRASH. You may have control of your bike. THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN AVOID EVERY ACCIDENT. If you believe you can, YOU ARE A FOOL.

Do you mind telling me how this one was "avoidable"??

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80364

Guess you would have stood the bike straight up and rode into the gravel and off the cliff??
Better yet, you would have leaned more left and blazed into the oncoming lanes on a blind corner.
YEAH RIGHT.

ALL THE SKILL IN THE WORLD WOULD NOT HELP AVOID THIS ACCIDENT.

Guess you have a flying 250 and you would have hit the hover button located next to the kill switch and just hopped over the other bike.

Go out to your 250 raise the kickstand and get off the bike and walk away. If your 250 will stay upright all by itself, (no stands, no string, no wire etc) take a vid and post it here.
Ill buy your bike as its the only bike in the world that defys gravity and can fly its way out of an accident.

I will then agree that you will NEVER go down, and you are the greatest EVER.

Otherwise good luck with you road rash. Hope it doesnt get infected.


he will most likely say "if i wasn't riding with gear i wouldn't be going so fast that i wasn't able to swerve to avoid it" or some stupid crock of **** that completely avoids the point you're trying to make.

i'm done with this troll. i suggest everyone else should be too. it's pointless trying to suggest logic to someone who is illogical.

"A", NJ A, you want to ride without gear because you think you have the skill to avoid other people's mistakes every time? be my guest. i'll keep reading the papers.

1. People are entitled to wear whatever they want when they ride, gear or no gear, as long as they abide by local laws.

2. Gear will not reduce your risk of an accident. Actually, the argument that gear increases the likelihood of a wreck is a valid one. Gear is designed to be somewhat form fitting, which can restrict movement. Add pads to the gear and a helmet and you increase the size of your overall form, increasing drag, and slightly changing the dynamics of the bike. Also, the wind noise from the helmet is distracting and earplugs dull a critical sense used to evaluate your surroundings. Gear can also give the rider a false sense of security, causing them to lower their guard more than they would if they weren't wearing any. However, gear can significantly reduce the risk and severity of injury. So, wearing gear or not wearing gear is a tradeoff.

3. No amount of skill will prevent all accidents. A rider's level of skill applies to the rider and the rider only. Unfortunately the rider is not the only one on the road, and a riders skill can only make up a portion of the deficit carried by others on the road.

4. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so quityerbitchin.

Actually, the argument that gear increases the likelihood of a wreck is a valid one.
Will this insanity ever stop??? Its not the gear.........its the pilot.


Gear is designed to be somewhat form fitting, which can restrict movement. Add pads to the gear and a helmet and you increase the size of your overall form, increasing drag, and slightly changing the dynamics of the bike.
WHAT???????????????????????????????


Also, the wind noise from the helmet is distracting and earplugs dull a critical sense used to evaluate your surroundings.
I guess getting hit in the face by large bugs isnt distracting at all. Nor is your watering eyes as the wind pours around your shades.


Gear can also give the rider a false sense of security, causing them to lower their guard more than they would if they weren't wearing any. However, gear can significantly reduce the risk and severity of injury. So, wearing gear or not wearing gear is a tradeoff.


Ya had me up until the last sentance.
Dont wear your gear if you like road rash. Is that the trade off your speaking of ???

LOOK PEOPLE
There are many new riders here. Some have 0 experience. Please stop filling there heads with nonsense. If you think its safe and wise to ride without your gear. GOOD for you. ITS YOUR A$$
Stating BS like the above is not constructive. ITS IDIOTIC
There is absolutly no evidence to back up the first 2 quotes here. NONE.
Im glad that a few here feel the need to justify NO gear with made up BS.

If you are new to riding. GEAR UP. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE.
PM the OP here and ask him if he plans on wearing his gear next time.
BET HE DOES.
WANA KNOW WHY??? LOOK BELOW.

1. People are entitled to wear whatever they want when they ride, gear or no gear, as long as they abide by local laws.

2. Gear will not reduce your risk of an accident. Actually, the argument that gear increases the likelihood of a wreck is a valid one. Gear is designed to be somewhat form fitting, which can restrict movement. Add pads to the gear and a helmet and you increase the size of your overall form, increasing drag, and slightly changing the dynamics of the bike. Also, the wind noise from the helmet is distracting and earplugs dull a critical sense used to evaluate your surroundings. Gear can also give the rider a false sense of security, causing them to lower their guard more than they would if they weren't wearing any. However, gear can significantly reduce the risk and severity of injury. So, wearing gear or not wearing gear is a tradeoff.

3. No amount of skill will prevent all accidents. A rider's level of skill applies to the rider and the rider only. Unfortunately the rider is not the only one on the road, and a riders skill can only make up a portion of the deficit carried by others on the road.

4. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so quityerbitchin.

You hit the nail on the head on all four points. I always wear a helmet even though I don't legally have to, but it DOES restrict my vision. For example, when I change lanes, I have to make an educated guess as to whether or not there is someone else there because I can't just look and see. I have accidentally cut people off changing lanes too. Fortunately, the driver was alert and we didn't collide.

Basically, if certain gear is so distracting to the rider that it can cause an accident, then he should seriously weigh the consequences of going without. Personally, I don't wear boots for that very reason.

I can certainly sympathize with the OP in that it was too hot for leathers. I will not judge him for that. It was his decision and nobody else's. I wear mesh myself. If all they had was leather, I would go without. I've gone down twice at low speed and took hard hits on my shoulder and the CE armor did its job. I walked away both times and only suffered injury to my ego.

There are many new riders here. Some have 0 experience. Please stop filling there heads with nonsense.

You're right, we should jam our opinion down their throats instead of allowing them to view both sides of the argument and form their own opinions. Good call.

Except there aren't "both sides". Anyone is free to choose to do whatever they like, but the points you made about gear making it more likely to have an accident are ludicrous. And D - turn your head when changing lanes. :thumbup:

Except there aren't "both sides". Anyone is free to choose to do whatever they like, but the points you made about gear making it more likely to have an accident are ludicrous. And D - turn your head when changing lanes. :thumbup:

I have limited flexibility in my back so twisting around backwards to stare at the traffic behind me is not possible. So yes, my modular limits my visibility and could get me into trouble. My 3/4 helmet didn't have the problem as bad, but I don't really like it that well for other reasons. Fortunately, my helmet doesn't generate much noise and I can usually hear the radiator fan of nearby traffic, but in heavy traffic, it gets confusing as to whose fan is where.

I don't propose that gear issues causing accidents are common, but the probability does exist. ANY time you get distracted while riding, that is a chance for an accident - whether its a hot bimbo walking down the sidewalk, an important text message, or a motorcycle boot that doesn't fit right.

Except there aren't "both sides". Anyone is free to choose to do whatever they like

If there's an option to wear gear or not to wear gear, that would mean there are two sides.

but the points you made about gear making it more likely to have an accident are ludicrous

Care to validate your point? The nuh-uh argument doesn't hold much water.

And D - turn your head when changing lanes.

Not everyone fits the same cookie-cutter body structure that the vast majority of bike gear is modeled after. Especially if that person has a larger upper body.

Personally I've found several jackets that are either restrictive in the shoulders, or are loose to the point that when leaning too far forward, cause the shoulder area of the jacket to bunch up around the helmet and restrict head movement, even more so when that jacket has shoulder pads.

I have yet to find riding pants that fit properly. Either they're too long, too baggy, or too tight in the crotch or waste.

Wind noise because of the helmet is sufficient enough to cause hearing damage. That high of a pitch at those decibels, or the use of earplug, is more than enough to dull the sound of a nearby vehicle, depending on the vehicle.

Ever had your jacket whip around or puff up? That's drag. Why do you think people tuck when they accelerate?

I have limited flexibility in my back so twisting around backwards to stare at the traffic behind me is not possible.
If this is a fact of life for you. You have balls that clank while you ride. I like to look in my blind spot before I change lanes. If I could NOT....I think I would park MY bike.
I don't propose that gear issues causing accidents are common, but the probability does exist.
of course it does. The trade off is road rash, no road rash if you go down.
ANY time you get distracted while riding, that is a chance for an accident - whether its a hot bimbo walking down the sidewalk, an important text message, or a motorcycle boot that doesn't fit right.



Very true.

If there's an option to wear gear or not to wear gear, that would mean there are two sides.



Care to validate your point? The nuh-uh argument doesn't hold much water.



Not everyone fits the same cookie-cutter body structure that the vast majority of bike gear is modeled after. Especially if that person has a larger upper body.

Personally I've found several jackets that are either restrictive in the shoulders, or are loose to the point that when leaning too far forward, cause the shoulder area of the jacket to bunch up around the helmet and restrict head movement, even more so when that jacket has shoulder pads.

I have yet to find riding pants that fit properly. Either they're too long, too baggy, or too tight in the crotch or waste.

Wind noise because of the helmet is sufficient enough to cause hearing damage. That high of a pitch at those decibels, or the use of earplug, is more than enough to dull the sound of a nearby vehicle, depending on the vehicle.

Ever had your jacket whip around or puff up? That's drag. Why do you think people tuck when they accelerate?

You want me to field this one ALEX??? lol Its so full of holes its swiss cheese.

You want me to field this one ALEX??? lol Its so full of holes its swiss cheese.

Still waiting for someone to make a valid argument.....

If there's an option to wear gear or not to wear gear, that would mean there are two sides.

The two sides aren't "wear gear" or "don't wear gear". That is a decision that each of us make each time we get on the bike, and the same individual might make different decisions under different situations.

The "two sides" that I was objecting to are "gear helps" and "gear doesn't help". Those aren't both sides that can be intellectually supported. If some gear doesn't fit, find some that does. If some gear is distracting, find some that isn't. If no gear on the planet fits or is non-distracting, then don't use any. But convincing oneself that one is ultimately safer on a motorcycle in any situation while wearing less protective gear is patently foolish.

The two sides aren't "wear gear" or "don't wear gear". That is a decision that each of us make each time we get on the bike, and the same individual might make different decisions under different situations.

The "two sides" that I was objecting to are "gear helps" and "gear doesn't help". Those aren't both sides that can be intellectually supported. If some gear doesn't fit, find some that does. If some gear is distracting, find some that isn't. If no gear on the planet fits or is non-distracting, then don't use any. But convincing oneself that one is ultimately safer on a motorcycle in any situation while wearing less protective gear is patently foolish.

Does this mean I need to wear a cup?

Clearly. :)

do you care to back up your claim that
"Actually, the argument that gear increases the likelihood of a wreck is a valid one "

What is your source for this?? Your brain??
Making a statement and the asking the other party to prove his side is the most idiotic thing ever.
You were called on it . BY ME. Now prove your statement.

Ill say this.
ITS NOT THE GEAR.....ITS THE RIDER.
If YOU percieve greater saftey while wearing your gear and CHOOSE to ride more reckless. THEN ITS YOUR FAULT. Has nothing to do with the gear. ITS THE WAY YOU VIEW THE SITUATION IN YOUR PEA SIZED BRAIN.
Most of us here understand that the riding is dangerous and we wear gear to protect ourself the best we can. It doesnt change the way we ride.
If YOU put on gear, and then your brain says to you go faster be more reckless because your wearing leather. YOUR A MORON.


I would start a poll on this if it wasnt so IDIOTIC.

Next quote
"Not everyone fits the same cookie-cutter body structure that the vast majority of bike gear is modeled after. Especially if that person has a larger upper body.

Personally I've found several jackets that are either restrictive in the shoulders, or are loose to the point that when leaning too far forward, cause the shoulder area of the jacket to bunch up around the helmet and restrict head movement, even more so when that jacket has shoulder pads.

I have yet to find riding pants that fit properly. Either they're too long, too baggy, or too tight in the crotch or waste."

They do make CUSTOM SUITS ya know.

Next quote
"Wind noise because of the helmet is sufficient enough to cause hearing damage. That high of a pitch at those decibels, or the use of earplug, is more than enough to dull the sound of a nearby vehicle, depending on the vehicle"

Im guessing its totally silent when you arent wearing a helmet.

Lastly
"Ever had your jacket whip around or puff up? That's drag. Why do you think people tuck when they accelerate?"

UHHH NO. My gear fits me properly.
I still fail to see how this has anything to do with making it unsafe to wear gear.
Please explain in detail so I can pick it apart.

The "two sides" that I was objecting to are "gear helps" and "gear doesn't help". Those aren't both sides that can be intellectually supported. If some gear doesn't fit, find some that does. If some gear is distracting, find some that isn't. If no gear on the planet fits or is non-distracting, then don't use any. But convincing oneself that one is ultimately safer on a motorcycle in any situation while wearing less protective gear is patently foolish.

I never said gear doesn't help, I specifically stated that gear reduces both the likelihood of an injury and the severity. I also never stated that less gear is "safer". What I said is that people who argue that gear increases the chances of a wreck have a valid argument.

Gear will not reduce your risk of an accident. Actually, the argument that gear increases the likelihood of a wreck is a valid one.

However, gear can significantly reduce the risk and severity of injury.

but the points you made about gear making it more likely to have an accident are ludicrous.

The explanation of your statement doesn't match the statement you made.

do you care to back up your claim that
"Actually, the argument that gear increases the likelihood of a wreck is a valid one "

What is your source for this?? Your brain??
You were called on it . BY ME. Now prove your statement.

I've already stated my side. Restrictive gear can dull senses or restrict range of motion. If you don't see how that can directly result in a wreck, I'm sorry.

And yes it comes from my brain since it's a personal experience. My statement wasn't an absolute one, it was a statement that pointed out a potentially negative aspect that gives credit to the other side of the argument. If so much as one person has an experience that backs up my point, my point is valid.

Making a statement and the asking the other party to prove his side is the most idiotic thing ever.

Asking someone to back up their statement is idiotic? So we should just take the statement as fact? Why are you arguing with me then?

They do make CUSTOM SUITS ya know.

And everyone can afford a custom suit or has access to a dealer? I assume you feel that people shouldn't ride unless they have access to perfect gear?

Im guessing its totally silent when you arent wearing a helmet.

Personally, I wouldn't know, I don't ride without a helmet. What I do know is that having 60+ MPH winds blow across your ears and the noise caused by a helmet are two very different things.

UHHH NO. My gear fits me properly.

Good for you, not everyone is so lucky.

I still fail to see how this has anything to do with making it unsafe to wear gear.

I never stated that wearing gear was unsafe, I stated that people claiming gear has the potential to increase the chances of a wreck, have a valid point.

If you want to argue my viewpoint, go ahead. But try keeping it to statements I've actually made please.

Op can I use your pics on a website for motorcycle safety that I am building.

I also never stated that less gear is "safer". What I said is that people who argue that gear increases the chances of a wreck have a valid argument.

...snip...

I never stated that wearing gear was unsafe, I stated that people claiming gear has the potential to increase the chances of a wreck, have a valid point.

And we're stating that they do not have a valid point. They are kidding themselves about the greater senses or greater mobility without gear as helping them avoid an accident.

And we're stating that they do not have a valid point. They are kidding themselves about the greater senses or greater mobility without gear as helping them avoid an accident.

The use of gear has the potential to restrict mobility and dull certain senses? Are you arguing against this?

If you're not against my statement, then we're on the same page.

The part you're failing to see, and was likely poorly worded by others, is that no gear does not reduce the chance of a wreck, but gear does have the potential to increase it.

To explain it another way, lets look at the risk of an accident as having a base chance of likelihood. Wearing gear can potentially increase that chance, but that doesn't mean not wearing gear decreases it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

You defined wearing gear as some sort of safety tradeoff. That is what I am most strenuously disagreeing with. I think your argument is both wrong and dangerous.

I reject your claim that proper gear has the potential to increase the chances of a wreck. If that stated potential is actually realized by any actual motorcycle wearing any actual gear, the motorcyclist chose the wrong gear or is more easily distracted than any of us need to be on two wheels.

You defined wearing gear as some sort of safety tradeoff. That is what I am most strenuously disagreeing with. I think your argument is both wrong and dangerous.

I reject your claim that proper gear has the potential to increase the chances of a wreck. If that stated potential is actually realized by any actual motorcycle wearing any actual gear, the motorcyclist chose the wrong gear or is more easily distracted than any of us need to be on two wheels.

You're making the assumption that everyone has access to properly fitting gear and that everyone knows what properly fitting gear is. The fact that there are so many gear fitment guides out there would suggest that a good number of people aren't wearing proper gear.

I'm making a statement based on an average rider in an average situation and you're arguing it with a perfect set of circumstances.

I'll ask my question again:

Do you agree or disagree that on average, gear has the potential to restrict movement or dull certain senses?

I put a poll up. We'll let the community make the decision.

I reject the question. It is pointless and misleading. Or even more correctly, it is incomplete.

"Do you agree or disagree that on average, gear has the potential to restrict movement or dull certain senses, such that there is any single case on the planet where choosing not to wear said gear would be ultimately safer for the motorcyclist, taking into account their own distractions and uncomfortableness in wearing anything but their birthday suit",

then I'd answer my modified question as I disagree.