this might need to be merged into the cornering thread, if so my bad but...

let me preface by saying i by no means am good at riding at all and bow to the great wisdom of the more experienced riders out there. any advice is welcome and i won't take offense to you calling me a poor rider... i just want some advice to what i might be doing wrong.

this is something i never had any issue with on the ninja 250. on my fzr at around 70% to full lean, regardless of BP when i'm on maintenance gas its incredibly hard to maintain my lean angle without having to put in extra steering input...

let me explain further, i approach a long corner (e.g. a 180degree / hair-pin), get my speed down to the right level, put the bike down and get on maintenance gas. once the bike is down and im on the gas, it feels like the bike wants to go back and forth on the angle... traction feels firm but i would say its almost like i'm holding weight on the bars or something? i experimented further and don't think i am keeping any weight on the bars outside of twisting the throttle... the bars don't really feel like they're moving back and forth and my arms are loose as checked with an elbow wave... maybe the power output isn't smooth and its pulling me back up then dropping down again?
could my wheel be out of balance? i don't notice excessive vibration when upright, but something being wrong with the bike wouldn't surprise me... its a work in progress. i do need a new left front rotor... it vibrates a little bit when i'm firm on the brakes but i don't notice anything at all when not on the brakes... then again maybe this is what i'm noticing and just not linking the two?

i thought maybe i just got out of my comfort zone on the long corners so i took the ninja to the same group of turns and tried to replicate it but nothing... angle was smooth and responded very much like i would expect... this made me even more confused... does my throttle control really suck that bad when it comes to the higher power fzr?

i feel like it has to be something i'm doing as a rider... any tips on how to track down what i'm doing wrong here?

one thought i had was maybe i'm not applying enough throttle through the corner? i know it's supposed to be a slow steady roll on to keep the 40/60 ratio... maybe on the longer corners i need to start at a slower speed so i can pick up more speed through out the corner?

What's your rpm at? I find that I hit corners faster with the 250 and maintain whereas I'm more slow in fast out with the 600. It also feels easier to maintain when I'm in a lower gear/higher rpm, but I guess that also depends on what your torque curve is on the FZR.

Btw, do you have a tach on the bike?

What's your rpm at? I find that I hit corners faster with the 250 and maintain whereas I'm more slow in fast out with the 600. It also feels easier to maintain when I'm in a lower gear/higher rpm, but I guess that also depends on what your torque curve is on the FZR.

not very high. probably starting around 6 and i end up around 8. powerband starts to kick in around 7.5 but it doesn't really hit the surge of power until about 8.5... the extra power gets me weary but i guess i should try it a gear down yeah? stay in the power band makes alot of sense. on the 250 mid corner i'm about half throttle rolling onto full throttle whereas the fzr i'm probably 1/8th throttle rolling onto half throttle until the angle picks up a little then roll into full throttle by the time its up... to me it "feels" like about the same amount of acceleration to my butt-dyno but obviously the fzr is about 150lbs heavier... i will try starting lower and giving it more next chance i get... thanks

Btw, do you have a tach on the bike?

LOL tachometer is the only gauge i have right now ;)

oh wait i have a blinker light too!!!

I had this issue on the zx6. I somewhat solved it by being in a lower gear with higher rpm. I also found that it is also me being cautious of what may be at the other end of the bend. I noticed this when I saw I didn't have this problem at the track versus the street.
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not very high. probably starting around 6 and i end up around 8. powerband starts to kick in around 7.5 but it doesn't really hit the surge of power until about 8.5... the extra power gets me weary but i guess i should try it a gear down yeah? stay in the power band makes alot of sense. on the 250 mid corner i'm about half throttle rolling onto full throttle whereas the fzr i'm probably 1/8th throttle rolling onto half throttle until the angle picks up a little then roll into full throttle by the time its up... to me it "feels" like about the same amount of acceleration to my butt-dyno but obviously the fzr is about 150lbs heavier... i will try starting lower and giving it more next chance i get... thanks

Haha, I like this.

It may be related to the tire profile on the FZR. Different front shapes can make the front feel like it's turning in too quickly, or it may make it feel like it needs constant pressure to remain turning at a constant rate. Check your pressures, and confirm that your tires are at least close to the original sizes spec'd for the bike.

On the 600 for me I have to keep more pressure on the bars to hold my turn then I do on the 250. The 250 I can turn in gas it and it holds, the 600 wants to stand up, I just thought I was the heavier crank spinning trying to stand the bike up with centrifugal force.

It may be related to the tire profile on the FZR. Different front shapes can make the front feel like it's turning in too quickly, or it may make it feel like it needs constant pressure to remain turning at a constant rate. Check your pressures, and confirm that your tires are at least close to the original sizes spec'd for the bike.

thanks alex. :thumbup:
wow do i feel stupid. i have no idea how i overlooked this. it's got a 120x80x17 "round profile" front tire compared to the stock 110x70x17 and a 150x60x18 rear compared to the stock 140x60x18.
i'm trying to figure out how the wider tires are effecting things... its got stock rims so that means the tire is pinched making it a bit taller right? that should make it more of a V profile rather than as much of a round profile? hmm... shouldn't this do the opposite of what i'm experiencing? it seems like it would be less stable upright but more stable leaned over?

i will see if playing with some different pressures will help or hurt the issue... right now they're stock pressures of 36/42 (when i first got the bike and saw them i was amazed but found out later this is stock pressures)

On the 600 for me I have to keep more pressure on the bars to hold my turn then I do on the 250. The 250 I can turn in gas it and it holds, the 600 wants to stand up, I just thought I was the heavier crank spinning trying to stand the bike up with centrifugal force.

hmmm... what size tires do you have again? maybe its just the fzrs :confused:

i'm trying to figure out how the wider tires are effecting things... its got stock rims so that means the tire is pinched making it a bit taller right? that should make it more of a V profile rather than as much of a round profile? hmm... shouldn't this do the opposite of what i'm experiencing? it seems like it would be less stable upright but more stable leaned over?

It doesn't work like that. The suspension, the geometry, and the wheel and tire designs themselves all play a role in determining how the bike is going to behave at all different lean angles. And it varies even further as the tires wear. There is no simple rule that putting a non-standard tire size will do X. All that can be assumed is that it is going to behave differently, and in some cases quite unpredictably. Varies by type of tire, even those with identical size ratings.

hmmm... what size tires do you have again? maybe its just the fzrs :confused:

180's on the back don't remember the front, it does t wobble just wants to stand up under gas if I don't put more/keep pressure on the bars.

On the 600 for me I have to keep more pressure on the bars to hold my turn then I do on the 250. The 250 I can turn in gas it and it holds, the 600 wants to stand up, I just thought I was the heavier crank spinning trying to stand the bike up with centrifugal force.

YEP THIS IS IT.
Try moving your body/head farther off the bike to the inside of the turn.

I know others here feel like more pressure on the opposite bar is the trick.
I never noticed ME doing this. I ride with "body english"
If i want more lean I go out farther.
I want to keep my line while rolling on the throttle at the track. I get off the bike more. I use my body as a counter weight.
Maybe I am pushing harder on the opposite bar??? If I do....I never noticed.

I wish Misti would chime in on this. From the twist of the wrist II video, if your line is set and you have good throttle control, you should be able to hold your line without hands on the bars. The No-BS bike proves this.

I am sure she would be able to add major insight here.

I wish Misti would chime in on this. From the twist of the wrist II video, if your line is set and you have good throttle control, you should be able to hold your line without hands on the bars. The No-BS bike proves this.

I am sure she would be able to add major insight here.

what kind of poor throttle control are you saying causes the bike to pick up? too much throttle?

does that mean you're saying you should enter the turn faster and use less maintenance throttle until exit?

not sure if that's what you're saying or not but when i tried that the rear felt more unsettled... "squigly" is the only word that comes to mind... can't exactly try it right now as my fzr's dead :[ though it would line up with the fact that i don't get the issue with the ninja seeing as there is less power... plus the fact its lighter means i generally would enter the turn faster.

anyone want to let me try it on their zx6r with stock tire sizes? :D

Its not supposed to be a constant lean angle...its a increasing lean, peaking at the apex, and then a decreasing lean as you are coming out of the exit.

You dont snap it over ,hold, and then snap it back.

Its supposed to be smooth like your throttle. Tires cant fix incorrect technique.

I cannot explain it as well as you can view it from the twist of the wrist II video.

joUdnwn3iEw

1:13 - 3:15

I am trying to find the actual vid of where the guy is holding his line on the actual no bs bike.

ah found it.

Its at 40mins into the twist of the wrist II video. Watch if you if have it. I will try to take a small clip like they have on youtube. The guy holds his line with just throttle and body position.

Since I an currently watching it. One of the reasons you may experience this is holding on the bars to tight or rear suspension setting. Extra input or a soft rear may be the reason your not holding your line.

Its not supposed to be a constant lean angle...its a increasing lean, peaking at the apex, and then a decreasing lean as you are coming out of the exit.

You dont snap it over ,hold, and then snap it back.

Its supposed to be smooth like your throttle. Tires cant fix incorrect technique.

You my friend need a copy of the twist of the wrist II. Your steering should be complete before cracking open the throttle. Hold your line while rolling on. Start to bring the bike up with a steering input, once up to a reasonable traction level, you can crack the throttle even harder (the pick up drill).

Edit: The snap lean over you speak of is also called "quick turn, hip flick" and so on as instructed at a track day school.

it sounds like i'm not giving it enough throttle through the turn. once the bike is back up and running i will try a few things and report back. not exactly sure why it works fine with the ninja though. i need to experiment more

What I think you have going on (assuming the bike is set up properly and in good working order) is...

Source of the problem is corner entry speed is improper.

Pick a corner you can try over and over. Enter the corner a little faster each time and roll the throttle slowly and smoothly throughout (.1 to .2g's or transfer 20% of the load to rear) until you find the bike holding its line. As stated in the video, its an "art" to find what works for your bike. I.E. how much throttle it needs.

(assuming the bike is set up properly and in good working order)

Hahaha... oh... about that...

ah found it.

Its at 40mins into the twist of the wrist II video. Watch if you if have it. I will try to take a small clip like they have on youtube. The guy holds his line with just throttle and body position.

Since I an currently watching it. One of the reasons you may experience this is holding on the bars to tight or rear suspension setting. Extra input or a soft rear may be the reason your not holding your line.

Well that might me my issue then, I know my rear suspension is soft on my fazer and I need to stiffen it up.

I wish Misti would chime in on this. From the twist of the wrist II video, if your line is set and you have good throttle control, you should be able to hold your line without hands on the bars. The No-BS bike proves this.

I am sure she would be able to add major insight here.

Hi, just saw this and hopefully I can help a little bit. You are correct when you say that once you set your lean angle and provided you have good throttle control (rolling on smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the entire corner) the bike will maintain its line.

what kind of poor throttle control are you saying causes the bike to pick up? too much throttle?

does that mean you're saying you should enter the turn faster and use less maintenance throttle until exit?

Poor throttle control would be defined as on/off throttle, jerky with the throttle, waiting too late to apply the throttle, and even not rolling on enough throttle. Keith Code says in Twist of the Wrist II that good throttle control is "rolling on the gas ASAP once the bike is turned and rolling it on smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn." You want to achieve weight transfer to the rear so that the suspension is set in the proper range. Coasting or not rolling on the gas enough will not achieve that proper weight transfer and will result in an unstable bike. Unstable bikes do not hold predictable lines.

You my friend need a copy of the twist of the wrist II. Your steering should be complete before cracking open the throttle. Hold your line while rolling on. Start to bring the bike up with a steering input, once up to a reasonable traction level, you can crack the throttle even harder (the pick up drill).

Edit: The snap lean over you speak of is also called "quick turn, hip flick" and so on as instructed at a track day school.

Steering should be completed before cracking open the throttle. Quick turn/snap/flick/or turn the bike and then ASAP begin rolling on the throttle. You don't need any pressure on either handlebar to maintain your line if you have good throttle control. A lot of times people are unaware of the fact that they are putting input into the bars with stiff arms and are "steering the bike" wide and making mini adjustments to their line throughout the turn. Relax and flap your arms like a chicken to ensure that you have NO pressure on the bars.

it sounds like i'm not giving it enough throttle through the turn. once the bike is back up and running i will try a few things and report back. not exactly sure why it works fine with the ninja though. i need to experiment more

Could be exactly what is going on. Code says "by the numbers we want to transfer 10-20% of the weight rearwards using the throttle. Technically, this is 0.1 to 0.2 G of acceleration. Simply put, it's the force generated by a smooth fifth-gear roll-on in the 4000-6000 rpm range on pretty much anything over 600 cc. That's not much acceleration but it does the job."

You may need to roll on a little bit more on smaller bikes to achieve this balance so I would experiment with rolling on a little bit more, as smooth as possible, until you feel the bike holding its line and being as stable as possible.

What I think you have going on (assuming the bike is set up properly and in good working order) is...

Source of the problem is corner entry speed is improper.

Pick a corner you can try over and over. Enter the corner a little faster each time and roll the throttle slowly and smoothly throughout (.1 to .2g's or transfer 20% of the load to rear) until you find the bike holding its line. As stated in the video, its an "art" to find what works for your bike. I.E. how much throttle it needs.

Corner entry speed may be improper but I wouldn't suggest trying to enter in faster just yet. I'd actually say go in nice and slow, slower than you feel necessary so that you are comfortable getting on the gas ASAP once the bike is turned and rolling it on throughout the entire corner. If you try to go in faster your survival instincts may get triggered (you fear you are going in too fast) and it becomes nearly impossible to make your hand roll on the gas if you feel like you are already going in too fast. Slow in, fast out is the motto.

Experiment with your throttle control and with seeing how much (if any) extra weight you are putting on the bars and let us know how it goes from there :)

Hope that helped a little......

Misti

thank you so much, misti. after re-reading the book, and watching the TotW2 video, i think you're confirming some things i suspected about not enough throttle through the turn. i'm a bit busy this week but when i have some more time i will do a good amount of experimenting with the FZR and see where i end up.

thank you so much, misti. after re-reading the book, and watching the TotW2 video, i think you're confirming some things i suspected about not enough throttle through the turn. i'm a bit busy this week but when i have some more time i will do a good amount of experimenting with the FZR and see where i end up.

Great, let us know how it goes!!!

Misit

i think i've found/resolved my issues.

L-wAYPBu-d4

front right rotor warped and dragging. replace!

i also upped the front tire pressure a few pounds from stock 35 to 38psi which helps alot.
the dragging front rotor was pushing the front down a little bit pulling the bike up like what happens when you hit the brakes.

the weight removed from the front was then making the front a little lighter than it should have been and turning was a little sloppy at the stock 25 degrees of rake so i dropped the front until it felt better

almost keeps the line i give it... almost. it's a lot better though. i'm going to replace the wheel and steering bearings soon.