I'm wondering is there an appropriate time for counter-steering? I do it almost every turn and it seems I'm able to lean more everytime and build more self-confidence. But, I have been watching a bunch of youtube videos and lots of riders actually turn into the turn. As in, they steer left if they're making a left turn.

My question is, do most riders counter-steer at certain turns at certain speed? Should I counter-steer every turn?

In general unless it is a very slow corner, you need to counter steer to get the bike turn where you want it to go. Turning from a stop, or under about 5mph most of the time you'll turn the direction you want to go. And after a while you'll know when you need to and when you don't.

counter steering works at every speed. steering the bars in one direction pulls the wheel in that direction causing the bike to lean in the opposite direction.

counter-steering is the only way to accurately modify lean angle. lean angle is your main steering method on a motorcycle going above 2 mph.

the only "catch" is that at extremely slow speeds like on a bicycle, your body weight is able to counter-act the lean provided by counter-steering, giving you a more car-like steering feel.

the reason you "see" their bars going in the direction of the turn is because that's what the bike does to turn that direction. counter-steering comes before that point. if you watch carefully on all those videos you can see the bars turn the opposite direction very briefly. like i said, counter-steering is how you change lean angle. lean angle determines your steering

An inline 2 wheeled vehicle will always need a "countersteer" to initiate a turn at any speed greater than 0. From the smallest bike to the largest motorcycle.

The GOAL is to have all steering complete before rolling on the throttle. "Lazy Steering" as you have seen in a lot of videos, have some drawbacks; possibility of excessive entry speed, requiring a tighter line at corner exit, steering corrections mid corner, slower exit speed and a line that does not allow for (rule #1) a smooth throttle roll throughout the turn.

But, I have been watching a bunch of youtube videos and lots of riders actually turn into the turn. As in, they steer left if they're making a left turn.

As posted above, countersteering is needed to help initiate a turn at speed. I'm not sure at what angles the youtube video shows of the bikes turning but if you were to watch them from straight on, you will see that the riders will actually countersteer first and the bike will move on a slight tangent away from the curve causing the contact patch of the front tire to point away from the turn. This is known as out-tracking. The bike's mass resists this lateral movement and forces the top of the bike to lean into the turn. Depending on your bike, lean angle, speed, type of turn, etc., as your bike begins to lean in, you may start to turn your front tire back towards the turn to help stabilize your lean.

counter steering works at every speed. steering the bars in one direction pulls the wheel in that direction causing the bike to lean in the opposite direction.

counter-steering is the only way to accurately modify lean angle. lean angle is your main steering method on a motorcycle going above 2 mph.

the only "catch" is that at extremely slow speeds like on a bicycle, your body weight is able to counter-act the lean provided by counter-steering, giving you a more car-like steering feel.

the reason you "see" their bars going in the direction of the turn is because that's what the bike does to turn that direction. counter-steering comes before that point. if you watch carefully on all those videos you can see the bars turn the opposite direction very briefly. like i said, counter-steering is how you change lean angle. lean angle determines your steering

Actually you have that backwards, Countersteering determines where the bike goes, with leaning as a result. Check out keith code's no bs bike
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

The GOAL is to have all steering complete before rolling on the throttle. "Lazy Steering" as you have seen in a lot of videos, have some drawbacks; possibility of excessive entry speed, requiring a tighter line at corner exit, steering corrections mid corner, slower exit speed and a line that does not allow for (rule #1) a smooth throttle roll throughout the turn.

+1

You countersteer at any speed over about 5mph. Don't try to think too much into it. It's something we do naturally on any set of 2-wheels, including a bicycle. :) It's good to notice it and practice it as you're learning to ride, but don't focus too much on trying to force yourself into a countersteer. It happens all by itself. Thank you physics!

For the record, there's nothing magical about this 5-8 mph number that gets thrown around. Now for a little physics discussion...

If the bike isn't leaned when you start a turn, centrifugal force (plus the fact that the center of gravity is off the ground) would mean that the bike would fall over to the outside every time. By leaning, roughly speaking you're using the weight of the bike to balance the centrifugal force that wants you to fall to the outside. Therefore, we have to lean the bike to turn without falling (duh!)

There are 2 ways to lean the bike: countersteering or shifting your weight side to side, where the motorcycle shifts the opposite direction.

Think of countersteering as temporarily unbalancing the bike to cause it to lean. The idea is to use the centrifugal force from a short turn in the opposite direction to create the lean necessary to balance the turn. The centrifugal force in turn depends on a) how fast you're going (faster = more force), b) the radius of the turn (tighter = more force), and c) the mass of the bike+rider (not important for this discussion). The size of the centrifugal forces determines how fast you lean over.

What this basically implies is that at very low speeds, it's a little harder to generate a lean from countersteering: because your speed is low, you need a tighter radius to get the same centrifugal force. This is easy to see in practice -- as you go very slowly, say at a stoplight, you need more dramatic steering motions to stay in balance.

Another take on the same idea is that you have slightly less control from countersteering at low speeds, and therefore body positioning gives you relatively more control compared to countersteering at these speeds. That's why counter-weighting is important to making low speed maneuvers like U-Turns.

Here's a video demonstrating most of this:
C848R9xWrjc

For the record, there's nothing magical about this 5-8 mph number that gets thrown around. Now for a little physics discussion...

If the bike isn't leaned when you start a turn, centrifugal force (plus the fact that the center of gravity is off the ground) would mean that the bike would fall over to the outside every time. By leaning, roughly speaking you're using the weight of the bike to balance the centrifugal force that wants you to fall to the outside. Therefore, we have to lean the bike to turn without falling (duh!)

There are 2 ways to lean the bike: countersteering or shifting your weight side to side, where the motorcycle shifts the opposite direction.

Think of countersteering as temporarily unbalancing the bike to cause it to lean. The idea is to use the centrifugal force from a short turn in the opposite direction to create the lean necessary to balance the turn. The centrifugal force in turn depends on a) how fast you're going (faster = more force), b) the radius of the turn (tighter = more force), and c) the mass of the bike+rider (not important for this discussion). The size of the centrifugal forces determines how fast you lean over.

What this basically implies is that at very low speeds, it's a little harder to generate a lean from countersteering: because your speed is low, you need a tighter radius to get the same centrifugal force. This is easy to see in practice -- as you go very slowly, say at a stoplight, you need more dramatic steering motions to stay in balance.

Another take on the same idea is that you have slightly less control from countersteering at low speeds, and therefore body positioning gives you relatively more control compared to countersteering at these speeds. That's why counter-weighting is important to making low speed maneuvers like U-Turns.

Here's a video demonstrating most of this:
C848R9xWrjc
Was that a Ninjette ? :)

don't think about it too hard. it will break your head.

And eventually you'll stop thinking about counter steering and it will be muscle memory.

I learned to countersteer going down GMR with no hands. lol
Good times. Scary, but good times. Hung on the the huge GSXr tank.
Oh yeah I did it on a GSXR too without getting killed. Do I get bonus points?

When the bike is leaning one way and wants to keep going that way, it's hard as hell to lean the other direction and turn it with no hands.. which is what you should be doing.
Very scary to learn. Your body weight controls everything. No weight on your bars ever.
bike drives itself where it wants to go in relation to your lean. It does not need handlebars accept for you to control gas and brakes and hold on but if you know how to ride it you can hold on anywhere.

the only time i countersteer is when going from one extreme lean angle to the other right away, as in a flip flop corner. In this case you might actually need to press on the bars quickly and precisely to get you over. Not very much though and it's still mostly about leaning the bike into the corner.

countersteering, in this sense (at speed in corners) just helps to initiate the lean much faster.
I'm barely even touching the handlebars while hauling through some nice twisties.
It more feels like I'm haulin butt leaning forward on a unicycle with no pedals only pegs.
I don't even recognize that there is a front end on the bike and it feels like I'm standing on the back wheel by it's bolts and leaning way forward while going through each corner.

Another time I may countersteer is if there is an object in the road on a twisty and I need to dodge it fast without interrupting my lean angle. It doesn't take much, just breathe on the handlebar and you'll zing right around the object.

To differentiate countersteer vs counterweight..

Counterweight would be what I do during a very slow U-turn. The steering isn't countering, rather it's stearing inward and turning as it should, but my weight counters to the outside of the bike to help balance at the low speed. In this manner, you can U-turn your bike in a very. very tight radius. This is counterweighting.

This is wrong wrong wrong. You don't want weight on the bars yes, but the ONLY way to turn a motorcycle at speed is to turn the handlebars. If you think you're turning it with your weight, you're really subconsciously pushing the handlebars. See the Keith Code No BS bike.

When the bike is leaning one way and wants to keep going that way, it's hard as hell to lean the other direction and turn it with no hands.. which is what you should be doing.
Very scary to learn. Your body weight controls everything. No weight on your bars ever.
bike drives itself where it wants to go in relation to your lean. It does not need handlebars accept for you to control gas and brakes and hold on but if you know how to ride it you can hold on anywhere.

the only time i countersteer is when going from one extreme lean angle to the other right away, as in a flip flop corner. In this case you might actually need to press on the bars quickly and precisely to get you over. Not very much though and it's still mostly about leaning the bike into the corner.

countersteering, in this sense (at speed in corners) just helps to initiate the lean much faster.
I'm barely even touching the handlebars while hauling through some nice twisties.
It more feels like I'm haulin butt leaning forward on a unicycle with no pedals only pegs.
I don't even recognize that there is a front end on the bike and it feels like I'm standing on the back wheel by it's bolts and leaning way forward while going through each corner.

Another time I may countersteer is if there is an object in the road on a twisty and I need to dodge it fast without interrupting my lean angle. It doesn't take much, just breathe on the handlebar and you'll zing right around the object.

To differentiate countersteer vs counterweight..

Counterweight would be what I do during a very slow U-turn. The steering isn't countering, rather it's stearing inward and turning as it should, but my weight counters to the outside of the bike to help balance at the low speed. In this manner, you can U-turn your bike in a very. very tight radius. This is counterweighting.

When I look at the bike, the handlebars are bolted stationary onto the bike. They don't turn the bike.
Which means you need to turn the bike with weight. Not by pushing the bars.

you use your legs as leverage on the tank and pegs.

the bars are there like that as a faux hand position, instead of making the rider use no hands with no throttle or brakes.

I may not be coming across correctly, but I very well understand the concept of that bike with the fixed handlebars. That bike is trying to teach you that you DO NOT need to turn the bars to corner a motorcycle. You use your weight. Your weight turns the bars.

Try riding that thing and seeing just how scary it is. I practice this myself, but I just use no hands while going down hill so I don't need throttle. I hang on to the sides of the tank with my hands, slow down a bit and go around turns with no hands, using only my weight.

It's very scary. Teaches you a ton very quick.

IMO, that is proper positioning, not countersteering.

If you're talking about the No-BS bike, then I think you missed the point. The point of that setup isn't to show you how to steer with weight, it's to show you that it's impossible to have any control steering only with weight.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

the bars are there like that as a faux hand position, instead of making the rider use no hands with no throttle or brakes.

The Keith Code bike was built to disprove those who discount the reality of countersteering. When using the bars that are fixed to the bike with the duplicate throttle and brake cables, the rider is asked to try and ride the bike like normal, but without being able to countersteer (as the bars are fixed). Body weight is the only thing that can change direction. What people find out very quickly is that it only works at very, very gentle speeds, and very, very gentle turns. When the speeds ramp up to anything approaching normal or faster, it becomes immediately clear that countersteering is not just a nice to have, it's a requirement to initiate the turn.

I definitely don't discount the reality of countersteering, but having gone down GMR with no hands, I know it works without it. I also know you corner faster you will need it, as stated above.

It may not be track speeds back there on tight gmr so I may be limited.. and I did slow a bit.
surely I was at least the legal 25mph. hehe

You guys would be surprised what you can do on one of those things!
Very scary but you have to command it.

No hands? You weren't touching the bars at all? So no clutch, throttle, or brakes either?

I'm guessing that's not what you mean, so you were probably unconsciously putting pressure on the bars.

No.
I was holding on to the sides of the tank. Going fairly slow for a motorcycle I will say that. Downhill, so I did not need throttle. You can turn it around the corners without countersteering.
I guess the point Alex makes to me and perhaps this thread title is at what point do you need to countersteer.

I know for sure if I'm coming off a corner fast into another opposite side corner, I will flick the bars some to get it over fast.

I'm not sure I guess how it works at low speed..

But you can go without to a certain extent, being very careful because it's very creepy to lean the bike one way while it's already leaned another without hands on the bars.
It's huge mind over matter thing. Your instinct will be to jump off instead of to use your weight and position on the bike to your advantage. I find it to be good training for body positioning.
It can tell me where my body really should be during a given corner to take my hands on and off, as I feel my weigh in the center of gravity. That's how you know your body is in the right place, if you are balanced on the bike with no hands while cornering. This is how you stick your hand out and drag hands on the ground while dragging knee, you have to be balanced without your hands. Your body has to be in just the right place.

I don't know if I can explain that one properly. Probably something not useful I taught myself.

Great link Trey! Nice to see it explained and tested like that.

No.
I was holding on to the sides of the tank. Going fairly slow for a motorcycle I will say that. Downhill, so I did not need throttle. You can turn it around the corners without countersteering.
I guess the point Alex makes to me and perhaps this thread title is at what point do you need to countersteer.

I know for sure if I'm coming off a corner fast into another opposite side corner, I will flick the bars some to get it over fast.

I'm not sure I guess how it works at low speed..

But you can go without to a certain extent, being very careful because it's very creepy to lean the bike one way while it's already leaned another without hands on the bars.
It's huge mind over matter thing. Your instinct will be to jump off instead of to use your weight and position on the bike to your advantage. I find it to be good training for body positioning.
It can tell me where my body really should be during a given corner to take my hands on and off, as I feel my weigh in the center of gravity. That's how you know your body is in the right place, if you are balanced on the bike with no hands while cornering. This is how you stick your hand out and drag hands on the ground while dragging knee, you have to be balanced without your hands. Your body has to be in just the right place.

I don't know if I can explain that one properly. Probably something not useful I taught myself.

Sorry ninja250 but even with NO hands on the bars, you still countersteer.

From the twist of the wrist II DVD
1_A8k58ysSw

There is just no known way to beat the physics involved.

I would highly recommend countersteering anytime you want to change direction while going over 5 mph.

The only other alternative is going in a straight line and crashing, and I highly recommend not doing that.

The only other alternative is going in a straight line and crashing, and I highly recommend not doing that.

LOL!

Wow I mst be seriously miss-understood.

Yes, the bars still turn if you don't have your hands on them! The bars will still counter steer without your hands if you use your weight. It has to, to get through the corner. That's a given.

I was out today riding very well no hands going at a good pace through some nice corners without issues?! :idunno:

I even found the ninja easy to flick around with no hands, more so than the gsxr..
I can for sure do GMR just as I did before no hands. The bike does what it wants while my position steers it.

The exception to this is super low speed and highway riding. I had to use small inputs then.

the guys in that video are going full track speed. That's different than going down no handed GMR I'd suppose.

If you hold your bike by the back seat and lean it back and fourth the handlebars turn left and right with the lean.

That's what I mean.

At say about 45mph you can crank the ninja well into a turn no problem without hands countersteering you. Yes, the bike has to so you stay on but I'm talking about hand input.

If I can do it no hands (lifting them an inch above the bars) I don't know what the guy in the videos problem is. He must be going well over GMR speed like I do it. I think at the track you want to use your hands? haha

I want to try riding the yellow double handlebar bike. UP GMR with that nice throttle rig it has.

Also it looks like they are using a larger bike than a ninja for the double handlebars.
You guys tend to compare larger bikes to the ninja a lot in this respect.
they are much alike, but the ninja turns on a dime, nowhere near as hard as a larger bike like he is trying to yank all over the track in that video by the stationary bars. I'm starting to wonder what speed that was when I saw him do that, I'm thinkin over 80mph. More than double the speeds I claim it's possible.

they say he is doing massive weight shifts but I beg to differ. He's barely yanking on the bike.

You guys go too far with the countersteering in a corner and you're not going to be happy with the result. That video makes it seam as though you don't have to lean and you need to jerk yourself into every corner with the bars.
Keep in mind they are showing you this two up, and with huge harleys.
The ninja falls into corners so easy you don't even need your hands.

Sorry ninja250 but even with NO hands on the bars, you still countersteer.

There is just no known way to beat the physics involved.

Sure there is.
You guys just have to see outside of the box. Seriously.
Get your own style that works.
Read some, and ride a hell of a lot more.

Here's how you turn a bike with ZERO countersteering.
ONLY counterbalance. :thumbup:
CIAD6QmWSik

Maybe Misti can add something here, as I would guess shes either ridden the no-BS bike or has seen it ridden first hand. I think at lower speeds you can lean the bike with your body, possible with footpeg weighting, and that will get the bars countersteering and falling into the turn. However, at higher speeds I could see this going bad quickly.

FTW (ok I'm done lol)
2sO7huawwm4

I see the pros on TV go sideways with one wheel at high speeds sometimes.

Sure there is.
You guys just have to see outside of the box. Seriously.
Get your own style that works.
Read some, and ride a hell of a lot more.

There truly aren't multiple styles here. It's not the open-minded vs. the close-minded. Riding at 25 mph with hands off and saying that because you can do that countersteering is optional, isn't thinking out of the box. It's misrepresenting how to ride a motorcycle. It's not teaching a new rider anything interesting or helpful. It's merely spreading the confusion that at some level when I see these threads I wonder if you still harbor. The Keith Code piece is spot-on here, and it articulates the topic better than anyone else has yet attempted in this thread.

Here's how you turn a bike with ZERO countersteering.
ONLY counterbalance. :thumbup:

At 5 mph. At speeds where adjusting the weight of the bike makes all the difference. A more on target video would be any one with a standup wheelie traveling at 30+ mph or more, and demonstrating how only the most minor of steering corrections can be made by balance alone.

Different physics on a wheelie (single wheeled vehicle) but alas, it seems to be way off course to helping the OP and questions presented. We must be misunderstanding each other or I am completely missing what your doing.

I'm sorry KC, but not sure how that applies to real life daily scenarios. Remember that you're giving advice to someone who is just starting out on a bike and has a total of two posts...

I was going to post something about an article by Keith Code, but I have a feeling that the video that's blocked at work probably covers Code's bike.

I won't comment any more until I get home and watch the video, but so far you guys seem like a more intelligent bunch than some people I've met who say "I don't understand anything about the theory of gyroscopes or vector multiplication, so I can't explain why the laws of physics don't apply to my motorcycle, but you'll just have to trust me."

:)

I'm sorry KC, but not sure how that applies to real life daily scenarios. Remember that you're giving advice to someone who is just starting out on a bike and has a total of two posts...

+1. Well said lol

There truly aren't multiple styles here. It's not the open-minded vs. the close-minded. Riding at 25 mph with hands off and saying that because you can do that countersteering is optional, isn't thinking out of the box. It's misrepresenting how to ride a motorcycle. It's not teaching a new rider anything interesting or helpful. It's merely spreading the confusion that at some level when I see these threads I wonder if you still harbor. The Keith Code piece is spot-on here, and it articulates the topic better than anyone else has yet attempted in this thread.



At 5 mph. At speeds where adjusting the weight of the bike makes all the difference. A more on target video would be any one with a standup wheelie traveling at 30+ mph or more, and demonstrating how only the most minor of steering corrections can be made by balance alone.


I understand Alex,
But I'm telling you I did it fine at 45 today and can go higher on Ninjette.
I understand it's not a beginner thing. It may not teach anyone anything.
But my point is I can crank the ninja through a turn without actually steering anything. My lean angle makes the bike want to steer, I didn't push the bars.
I can also do it at a fair speed feeling comfortable and not out of my range.

I don't mean to spread confusion, only to open up peoples eyes to other perspectives besides Keith Codes'. Everyone knows I don't know anything but I have been riding since 2005 and I'm alive and I've had a few 600's in the canyons and I do things normal riders wouldn't even think about like riding around without my hands to feel what it's like. Outside the box.

I'm just trying to add my input, but perhaps this is the wrong place and time.

I'm just trying to add my input, but perhaps this is the wrong place and time.For a new rider, I would have to agree, this is the wrong place and time. Your "advice" could get someone injured or killed.

I do think it's funny how you basically stated in one of your posts that while you weren't counter-steering directly with your hands, you admitted that the bike was counter-steering as you used your body weight.

You MUST counter-steer a motorcycle to get it to turn. We can debate direct-steer vs. counter-steer at speeds less than 10-15 mph in another thread. A new rider needs to know two things more than any other:
1) Counter-steer, using hand inputs on the bar;
2) Look where you want to go.

don't think about it too hard. it will break your head.

And eventually you'll stop thinking about counter steering and it will be muscle memory.

:whatshesaid:

If you spaz over it you will end up steering right into the path of a dump truck. I know, because that's what I did. Countersteering is a fact of bike physics. Now that you know that, forget it.:eek:

There is some credibility to those that say just lean into the turn. Here's why. Sit on your bike with both hands on the handlebars and the steering unlocked. Keep your elbows straight. Now lean over to one side. Watch what happens to the bars.

Congratulations! You've just countersteered.
:jumping20:

And you didn't have to think about it.

Once you get more experience, you can practice steering without leaning and leaning with amplified countersteering, but for now, just lean.

but for now, just lean.

i respectfully disagree. it's my opinion that being fully aware of how you point your front tire makes you more in tune with what your bike is going to do when you turn. that subtle little movement outward before the bike leans in, the pull in-ward when you're picking the bike up, these are very important things when trying to for example quickly avoid an object in the road. it's my opinion that you shouldn't bother leaning at first, just counter-steer with a straight up and down body without putting weight on the bars, then once you're good enough at that to do it comfortably start adding leaning in. weight on the bars + leaning will indeed make you countersteer. but weight on the bars will also make you crash.

i respectfully disagree. it's my opinion that being fully aware of how you point your front tire makes you more in tune with what your bike is going to do when you turn. that subtle little movement outward before the bike leans in, the pull in-ward when you're picking the bike up, these are very important things when trying to for example quickly avoid an object in the road. it's my opinion that you shouldn't bother leaning at first, just counter-steer with a straight up and down body without putting weight on the bars, then once you're good enough at that to do it comfortably start adding leaning in. weight on the bars + leaning will indeed make you countersteer. but weight on the bars will also make you crash.

Hmmm, well I don't really disagree with any of that, but I do feel there is a correct time to learn things. I say, Learn to ride safe before you learn to do stunting. Anyone who puts enough time on the bike will eventually learn all the subtleties about countersteering, but for new riders, keep it simple.

I wasn't kidding when I said that spazzing over countersteering sent me into the path of a dump truck. That really happened and is why I don't like to see other people spaz over it.

Well, I don't have much more to add from a technical standpoint, but I think you will find that the point you transition from counter-steering to point-and-shoot steering will be intuitive.... possibly from day one. For me it seems like it happens from my bodies instinctive response to balance the bike. When I did my MSF, AFTER we did two excesses, the instructors said, "oh BTW, you may not know this, but on exercise A you were all counter-steering, but in exercise B none of you were."

Seriously, Doubters, Read the entire thing
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
Second, without your hands on the bars, when you lean, the bars will countersteer themselves. This is fact

Now for MY understanding of the relationship between counter steering and leaning. Keep in mind, I'm not a physics major here.
Countersteering is always used to turn a bike, as a bike with a fixed wheel can not effectively be turned. Leaning is a result (or simultaneous action) designed to compensate for the G forces pulling you to the outside as a result of the change of direction due to countersteering. This is why I like riding in a nutshell. Cars are 2 dimensional vehicles, they have control over the x and y axis. Bikes have control of the x,y, and Z axis (lean, pitch, yaw, what have you). We can turn at faster speeds then the average car because we have the ability to manipulate the z axis to counteract the effect on the x axis (outward force from our turn). Just my .02 on the issue


To the OP or any new rider. Ride safe and observe the forces at play when you countersteer (and thus lean). The more confident you feel in countersteering, the faster you will be able to initiate a swerve etc. Even as a beginner, I would still read the keith code article, the information is good to have. Just remember to be safe out there, and it WILL come naturally!

You know how everyone loves the Ninjette because you can "throw it around" like no other bike? Can't do that without counter-steering ;)

I ride at the track by shifting my weight. i do not notice myself countersteering. ( i do it) I just dont notice it. Could this be the cause of the hub-ub? I have tried to ride no handed at speed. Not a good deal as you have no control to speak of. I do notice that i pull the bike side to side with my legs. I can feel the pressure. I just dont notice the steering inputs made by the arms. Doesnt mean its not happening. I just dont notice it.
Countersteering should be like breathing.....its something you do but dont notice it most of the time.

One of the mistakes that I made while learning to countersteer was that I read somewhere on the web that to countersteer the bike, I had to...

Turn the bars the opposite direction I'm turning.

^^^^^WRONG ^^^^ BAD ^^^ BADDDDDDD ^^^^

When a new rider must think about it, its best do it the way they teach it in the MSF class. That is: PUSH on the same side of the direction you want to go.

It may seem like its the same thing, but its not. The MSF did their homework and pushing is far easier to understand and less chance of error. Little things like that can make all the difference to a new rider who is already nervous and stressed.

Countersteering should be like breathing.....its something you do but dont notice it most of the time.

Agree, after many twisty miles it has become like breathing. I don't think about required inputs as much as trying to be smooth with the application of inputs.

The "new" rider should follow MSF recommendations to have a solid foundation to build on.

Turning basics for the new rider, page 18:

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Street_Motorcycle_Tips_2010.pdf

When I look at the bike, the handlebars are bolted stationary onto the bike. They don't turn the bike.
Which means you need to turn the bike with weight. Not by pushing the bars.

you use your legs as leverage on the tank and pegs.

the bars are there like that as a faux hand position, instead of making the rider use no hands with no throttle or brakes.

I may not be coming across correctly, but I very well understand the concept of that bike with the fixed handlebars. That bike is trying to teach you that you DO NOT need to turn the bars to corner a motorcycle. You use your weight. Your weight turns the bars.

Try riding that thing and seeing just how scary it is. I practice this myself, but I just use no hands while going down hill so I don't need throttle. I hang on to the sides of the tank with my hands, slow down a bit and go around turns with no hands, using only my weight.

It's very scary. Teaches you a ton very quick.

IMO, that is proper positioning, not countersteering.

The point is that you CAN'T do that. They bolted the bars straight, the actual result is that it was impossible to turn, not that they did it anyway.

Simple:
When you are going fast enough for counter-steering to work, do it. When you aren't, don't.

Simple:
When you are going fast enough for counter-steering to work, do it. When you aren't, don't.

They're tyring to say that the bike does it all the time no matter what.
Well OF COURSE! the forks have a pivot! The bike has to steer back and fourth for it to work. lol Genius.

Weather or not you countersteer purposely with your hand is a whole 'nother story that some people can't grasp.

What I describe does not seem to work well above speeds of 50mph but does fine below.
Remember, I said I do it on a slow GMR windy road and not a full speed track.
I also clearly accepted the fact that countersteering is a reality and never discounted it from the get go. I was conscious of the fact that It's required for my riding style unless I slow down, well before this one got interesting.

I still maintain I can learn additional things from the fixed handlebar bike, and I do on a regular basis because I practice that style of riding. (Which is not to be messed with by noobs).
The only reason I decided to comment on this thread was because I saw the picture of the fixed handlebar bike, and I practice doing that basically. IMO, I do actually learn things from it. KEith Code must have thought people would too, to create such a bike for people to ride. It appears people can learn things from it, and more than one thing.
=

You have to admit, if you can't corner Keith Code's fixe bar bike at all, you can't position your body. There's one thing learned, body position, by cornering a bike with no bars.
Sure, it can teach you about countersteering too!

Not trying to kill anyone, I think my input is just honestly missunderstood. =)
In part because of the slightly controversial nature of my posts not directed at teaching newbies.
We can learn from it. I am one who actually does practice this. I'm not just speaking for no reason.

So to answer the OP's question.. In my opinion, you NEED to start countersteer at about 45-50mph on the ninja. You're doing it all the time already anyways, but more serious inputs will be required after 45mph for sure.

I think everyone is over complicating this. Just go out and ride! Find what works for you and what doesnt. Moving my handlebars in whatever direction is the very last thing I am thinking of, concentrate more on your body position and all will follow

dragging knee and hand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgKumRx8_Ms#t=6m33s)

And there you go, totally possible to turn with one hand while dragging knee, probably not a good idea but it shows you what hand should be in control

They're tyring to say that the bike does it all the time no matter what.
I was answering the OP. Ignoring lean input, the bike isn't steerable both ways at any given time, so he needs to use the one that works. If there were a choice, the bike wouldn't know which you wanted when pushin the bars (once again, ignoring lean inputs)!

I think everyone is over complicating this. Just go out and ride! Find what works for you and what doesnt. Moving my handlebars in whatever direction is the very last thing I am thinking of, concentrate more on your body position and all will follow

dragging knee and hand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgKumRx8_Ms#t=6m33s)

And there you go, totally possible to turn with one hand while dragging knee, probably not a good idea but it shows you what hand should be in control

MSF tells you that it's important to know so that you don't force them the wrong way in an emergency maneuver.

I agree that its important to know, but I think at some point when your stuck on it dwelling then its going to start to mess you up

The point is that you CAN'T do that. They bolted the bars straight, the actual result is that it was impossible to turn, not that they did it anyway.

You're telling me I didn't go downhill on a twisty with no hands.

That is not the truth.

I know otherwise. There may be variables, but I know it's possible to an extent.

At my skill level, I do it safely and learn from it. I don't recommend anyone try it (ever) unless you want to know what the feeling of wanting to jump off the bike feels like or you are highly experienced and understand the concept and can do so without hurting yourself.

I wouldn't recommend many people jump on Keith Code's bike but I'd love to give it a shot myself.
The fact is, the guy in the video did actually turn the bike with fixed bars on it. (Wheel was not fixed)
It's not impossible. Had he adjusted his speed some or leaned in a more aggressive manner, he maybe could have turned more.

I believe the rider in the video at the time I'm referring to may have been slightly biased. From what I can see, he could have given it a better shot.

The reason you were able to do that is your handle bars are still turning. Its like on a bike, when you rock the whole bike the bars are going to rotate in one direction or another causing you to turn. If your handlebars are locked then you cant actually move

There is just more and more misinformation piling on this thread. People who think they are helping clarify are instead muddying the waters, and people are disagreeing with points that nobody else is making.

First - countersteering is just that. Counter. It's how single-track vehicles initiate turns. If the bike wants to turn left, the way it does that is there is first a motion of the wheel to turn right, however slightly, which allows the bike to lean left, and then continue turning left. That's why it's called counter. The initial motion is counter to the ultimate direction of the turn.

Second, for the bike or any other similar vehicle to turn at all, of course the bars have to be able to turn. In both directions. To both maintain balance and change direction. (The Code bike didn't lock the steering, the wheel is just as free to turn as any other bike; there was a secondary handlebar mounted to the frame rather than the fork, that itself didn't turn, so countersteering pressure on that handlebar did not provide any steering input)

One of the questions that is being debated here, is whether one can make the bike turn without applying any handlebar pressure whatsoever. And like a bicycle, it turns out that that is in fact possible at low speeds, and gentle turns. But even then, the bike is still countersteering to initiate the turn. You put your weight left, which pushes the bike underneath you right, however slightly. That weight shift causes the wheel to turn to the right, which leans the bike over left, and you adjust your balance to manage the steering of the front wheel, which is now pointed into the turn rather than counter to the turn.

The practice of active countersteering is just the acknowledgement of how this process works. MSF = push left, go left. Without handlebar pressure, the bike will not initiate any turn fast enough once speeds approach any normalcy. Nobody is forcing anyone to understand the physics of why this works. But those who don't try and learn how it works for them, and realize how much quicker they can flip their bike back and forth, properly setting up for turns exactly where and when they choose to, are at a disadvantage in both safety and ultimate enjoyment of riding the bike. Confidence in the bike doing what it is supposed to do every time, when given the same control inputs, makes for safer (and better) riders. Believing that body position is the primary driver of why a bike turns, and the whole steering part "just happens", is a strong precursor to posting up a new thread in the crash forum here. :2cents:

The reason you were able to do that is your handle bars are still turning. Its like on a bike, when you rock the whole bike the bars are going to rotate in one direction or another causing you to turn. If your handlebars are locked then you cant actually move

I think this was ninja250's point. You may be able to kinda sorta force the handlebars to move a tiny bit by shifting your weight around and not touching them.

I have NO earthly idea why you would want to do that instead of just putting pressure on the bars for better control. It sounds like a good way to end up on the evening news or in the obituary section.

Long story short: you always countersteer to make the motorcycle lean at any decent speed if you're riding sanely, whether you know it or not. Bicycles have the same dynamic; that's what makes it difficult for children to learn to balance a bicycle.

With the higher speeds, forces, and masses on a motorcycle, it takes extra oomph to steer, so in my (not so humble :) ) opinion, it's better to be aware and conscious of your steering technique to make sure you turn efficiently in an emergency if you need to, rather than just thinking "ok I'm going to lean the motorcycle now," or worse yet throwing your weight around to no effect and subconsciously putting pressure on the bars.

Edit: Alex strikes while I'm replying again! 2nd time in 2 days :)
:thumbup:

I agree with you guys.
There really is no reason to have your hands off the bike..
unless you're into tricks and things. Most of which aren't meant to be done at high speed or on the open road.

Sorry to stir the pot.

Edit: Alex strikes while I'm replying again! 2nd time in 2 days :)
:thumbup:

Didn't mean to steal anyone's thunder. :o

I have to disagree with everything posted here. clearly the rear wheel controls steering.
in a turn to the left, more gas makes the bike twist counter clockwise more, making you go left more, rear brake makes the bike twist counter-clockwise less, making you go left less. i mean the whole "counter steering" thing is just talking about when the bike is twisted counter-clockwise too much and the front wheel turns to the right even though you're going to the left... right? ... left?

edit: also, tangent forces, euclidean dimensionality, centripetal forces, mass * accelleration = force... therefore, clearly i like turtles.

Thats how it works?!

I have to disagree with everything posted here. clearly the rear wheel controls steering.
in a turn to the left, more gas makes the bike twist counter clockwise more, making you go left more, rear brake makes the bike twist counter-clockwise less, making you go left less. i mean the whole "counter steering" thing is just talking about when the bike is twisted counter-clockwise too much and the front wheel turns to the right even though you're going to the left... right? ... left?

edit: also, tangent forces, euclidean dimensionality, centripetal forces, mass * accelleration = force... therefore, clearly i like turtles.

I would have to agree with alex.s LOL

I have to disagree with everything posted here. clearly the rear wheel controls steering.
in a turn to the left, more gas makes the bike twist counter clockwise more, making you go left more, rear brake makes the bike twist counter-clockwise less, making you go left less. i mean the whole "counter steering" thing is just talking about when the bike is twisted counter-clockwise too much and the front wheel turns to the right even though you're going to the left... right? ... left?

edit: also, tangent forces, euclidean dimensionality, centripetal forces, mass * accelleration = force... therefore, clearly i like turtles.

Clearly you forgot E=mc^2 . What do you think those little pellets rolling around in the gas tank are for? That's what makes the Ninja faster than any other bike.

Clearly you forgot E=mc^2 . What do you think those little pellets rolling around in the gas tank are for? That's what makes the Ninja faster than any other bike.

I don't have those pellets... can we get a group-buy together for that? :rolleyes:


Seriously though, I just rode home on the freeway at rush-hour. I was in the carpool lane, the rest of the traffic was sloooooooow. When in this condition, I not only watch my speed extra carefully, watch for cars EXTRA, EXTRA carefully. But mentally make a counter-steer note. I don't know why I do this, since it is generally built into my nervous system, but I think I'm affraid I might panic, or freeze..... I just consider it "mental training/prep."

Embedding will kill my link to a specific time, but this proves that leaning can steer a bike with no handlebar inputs... at least, it can when wheelieing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHeWiyWJnZk&t=1m30s

The thing to remember is that the tires are like any gyroscope and they will stay at the angle you set them at as long as they are spinning with enough force until you apply inputs to change that. You do that with counter-steering. The turn itself comes from the differing surface area from the inner diameter and the outer diameter of a round tire, kinda like a typical wider-at-the-top drinking glass or cone will roll in a circle. You only need enough bar input to change the lean angle and then it is all about maintaining gyroscopic force by rolling on the throttle.

The "No BS bike" with the dual bars shows that it's nearly impossible to do these kind of turns without counter-steering but that's mostly because you have two tires and the forward direction keeps straightening the front in line with the rear. The best you can do at any normal speed is change lanes... slowly.

Embedding will kill my link to a specific time, but this proves that leaning can steer a bike with no handlebar inputs... at least, it can when wheelieing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHeWiyWJnZk&t=1m30s

The thing to remember is that the tires are like any gyroscope and they will stay at the angle you set them at as long as they are spinning with enough force until you apply inputs to change that. You do that with counter-steering. The turn itself comes from the differing surface area from the inner diameter and the outer diameter of a round tire, kinda like a typical wider-at-the-top drinking glass or cone will roll in a circle. You only need enough bar input to change the lean angle and then it is all about maintaining gyroscopic force by rolling on the throttle.

The "No BS bike" with the dual bars shows that it's nearly impossible to do these kind of turns without counter-steering but that's mostly because you have two tires and the forward direction keeps straightening the front in line with the rear. The best you can do at any normal speed is change lanes... slowly.

I don't see what this proves. I don't base my motorcycle riding, or my understanding of the physics of it on riding a wheelie. That proves you don't countersteer a unicycle, not a motorcycle. Thats practically saying you don't countersteer a motorcycle, because you don't countersteer a car. It's irrelevant.

Honestly, and this isn't directed at the quote btw, just in general.. This thread is legit disturbing me. It's scary to think that there are people on the road that don't understand how to ride the machine. Let me make some brief recap points here.

1) Motorcycles MUST countersteer to turn at speed (when both wheels are on the ground, which shouldn't even need to be said)

2) Riding with no hands does not prove that you don't countersteer, in fact, all it proves is that you don't need hands to countersteer, that WITH NO input on the bars, the bike will countersteer without you.

3) The no bs bike is a machine intended to prove this point and it does. By fixing the bars of the bike, they proved that the bike could not be steered effectively without countersteering, even by world class track riders.

Why are people arguing? Just get on your bike, "steer" in one direction, and see what happens. Case closed.

Why are people arguing?

Seems to be a pattern lately for every thread. :confused20:

Why are people arguing? Just get on your bike, "steer" in one direction, and see what happens. Case closed.

Because there was conflicting information being spread to a new rider with a question important to safety. If it's not worth getting the answer right in that situation, when is it?

There weren't personal attacks, flames, or trolls in this thread, just some good discussion. There is a difference :thumbup: :cheers:

I don't see what this proves. I don't base my motorcycle riding, or my understanding of the physics of it on riding a wheelie. That proves you don't countersteer a unicycle, not a motorcycle. Thats practically saying you don't countersteer a motorcycle, because you don't countersteer a car. It's irrelevant.

Honestly, and this isn't directed at the quote btw, just in general.. This thread is legit disturbing me. It's scary to think that there are people on the road that don't understand how to ride the machine. Let me make some brief recap points here.

1) Motorcycles MUST countersteer to turn at speed (when both wheels are on the ground, which shouldn't even need to be said)

2) Riding with no hands does not prove that you don't countersteer, in fact, all it proves is that you don't need hands to countersteer, that WITH NO input on the bars, the bike will countersteer without you.

3) The no bs bike is a machine intended to prove this point and it does. By fixing the bars of the bike, they proved that the bike could not be steered effectively without countersteering, even by world class track riders.
If you read my posts you will see that we are in perfect agreement. The elipses meant I was intentionally leaving something out and then I added it back in for comedic timing.

If you're talking about the No-BS bike, then I think you missed the point. The point of that setup isn't to show you how to steer with weight, it's to show you that it's impossible to have any control steering only with weight.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

That is exactly the point of the No BS bike, to show that it is impossible to have any control of the bike when steering just with body weight.

The Keith Code bike was built to disprove those who discount the reality of countersteering. When using the bars that are fixed to the bike with the duplicate throttle and brake cables, the rider is asked to try and ride the bike like normal, but without being able to countersteer (as the bars are fixed). Body weight is the only thing that can change direction. What people find out very quickly is that it only works at very, very gentle speeds, and very, very gentle turns. When the speeds ramp up to anything approaching normal or faster, it becomes immediately clear that countersteering is not just a nice to have, it's a requirement to initiate the turn.

Great explanation thanks. It is really fun to watch riders that are convinced they can steer the bike with body weight alone try to get the bike to even veer in one direction. They stamp on the pegs, flight their weight around and the bike barely moves.

Maybe Misti can add something here, as I would guess shes either ridden the no-BS bike or has seen it ridden first hand. I think at lower speeds you can lean the bike with your body, possible with footpeg weighting, and that will get the bars countersteering and falling into the turn. However, at higher speeds I could see this going bad quickly.

I have ridden the no BS bike and coached it numerous times. When throwing your weight around on the bike you can get it to gently veer off to the side but that is not considered "steering the bike" a motorcycle can only turn by using counter-steering. I recently wrote an article for Motorcycle Mojo on the subject and will cut and paste it at the bottom of this note, perhaps that will clarify.

I ride at the track by shifting my weight. i do not notice myself countersteering. ( i do it) I just dont notice it. Could this be the cause of the hub-ub? I have tried to ride no handed at speed. Not a good deal as you have no control to speak of. I do notice that i pull the bike side to side with my legs. I can feel the pressure. I just dont notice the steering inputs made by the arms. Doesnt mean its not happening. I just dont notice it.
Countersteering should be like breathing.....its something you do but dont notice it most of the time.

This is a HUGE reason for the misunderstanding. A lot of people just don't realize that they are putting input into the bars when they lean into a turn. Same is true for those that think that riding without their hands on the handlebars still means they are not "counter-steering"

Here is the article I wrote for Motorcycle Mojo Magazine on the subject.

Countersteering:

We do an exercise at the California Superbike School called the Steering Drill, which takes place in a large parking lot or pit area. Most of our students are so excited to get out on the track that they balk at the idea of doing a “steering” exercise first thing in the morning. Some appear frustrated and hop on the bike all attitudy and confident thinking they are pro’s at steering their bikes, however, these students usually realize that they have a lot to learn about properly steering a motorcycle and that what they take away from the 10 minute drill is one of the most important and influential things they could possibly learn about riding. An older student recently expressed, “I’ve been riding for 40 years and I never knew this, amazing. It’s going to completely change my riding for the better.”

The steering drill is designed to check the student’s understanding of and ability to countersteer. They are then coached on ways to improve so that it can be done quickly, confidently and effortlessly.

A lot of riders think that they understand countersteering or that countersteering a motorcycle is not necessary but the fact is that a good solid understanding of what countersteering is and how to do it properly is paramount to becoming the safest rider you can be. If there comes a time when you need to quickly steer your bike out of harms way then it pays to know how to do it, and how to do it well.

Countersteering is the technique used by single-track vehicle operators, cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by first steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right" Wikipedia.) This can be confusing at first because it is opposite of what you do in a car and it is counter-intuitive. In simpler terms, in order to turn a motorcycle you want to PUSH on the handlebar of the side you want to turn. If you want to go right then you push on the RIGHT handlebar. The wheel will turn to the left but the bike will lean over to the right. Push right to go right and push left to go left.

Riders do this without even realizing it, often times thinking they are just leaning or body steering the bike to get it to turn. For those that think that leaning steers the bike, what they are actually doing is putting pressure on that inside handlebar when they lean into the turn and it is that pressure that steers the bike, not the leaning.

For the steering drill, developed by Keith Code, we have our students ride their bikes in second gear, about 45km/hour. We have them do a series of S-turns as quickly as they feel comfortable doing while a coach observes how they steer the bike. Immediately we clarify with the student how they make the bike turn to the left, and a surprising number of students answer that they press on the right bar. I love it when this happens as it usually means that there will be a huge breakthrough in the students understanding of steering and an immense improvement in their riding ability. From there we usually ask the student what would happen if they pressed on the left bar and they look confused and say, “the bike will go right.”

From there we have the student ride in a straight line and just press on the left bar. This can be quite funny to watch as the student presses on the left bar, the bike wobbles a bit, starts going left, they fight it by leaning the opposite way and pressing on the other bar, the bike teeters to the right. They do this for a while and then come back with a confused smile on their faces. “It goes to the left.” They say in almost disbelief and we tell them, “that is counter-steering.”

Once the student firmly understands that pressing on the left bar makes the bike go left we work on additional aspects of steering such as having the student “go with the bike.” When a bike begins leaning over a lot of riders will fight this and counter-lean away from it which makes the bike less stable, makes it harder to turn and hold is line and can increase lean angle. We teach them to be like good passengers on the bike and go with it.

When the rider is nicely going with the bike we teach them how to have good body position that will help facilitate quick and effortless steering. Many riders sit rigidly on their machines with their arms straight and attempt to steer by pressing DOWN on the handlebars, however, the bike turns a lot quicker and with less effort if you press FORWARD on the bars. If you squeeze the tank with your knees, bend your elbows and stay relaxed it is easy to press forward on bars.

When the student is able to do a series of S-turns smoothly, quickly and effortlessly by doing what we have taught them then the exercise is over and they are able to practice what they learned on the track.

For those stubborn riders that believe that countersteering is not necessary and that all you need to do is shift your weight around and body steer or press on the pegs to turn a bike, Code developed a training bike called the No BS (Body Steering).

He did this by solid-mounting a set of bars to the frame 8” above the standard ones so that they are not connected to and do not rotate the forks with the idea that this “would positively isolate the various body shifting from the counter steering.” The motorcycle also has an additional throttle on the upper, solid-mounted bars so the bike's stability can be maintained as the user rides down the road.

If you believe that you can steer a motorcycle by how you shift your weight around on the bike then you should be able to hold onto the fixed handlebars and steer the No BS bike normally but after running hundreds of riders through this drill not one has been able get the thing to turn. No amount of wiggling, throwing body weight around or stamping on the pegs will make it do any more than a large swoop to one side, which isn’t exactly steering.
Code says that, “If it weren't so grim, it's almost comical to watch a rider who does not understand how steering is accomplished. You see them riding down the freeway trying and failing to change lanes by body steering. The rider does a very swoopy upper body swing in the direction he wishes to go but for an agonizing moment, nothing happens. There is a perceivable lag between the upper body swoop and the bike's deflection from its original course. How terrifying it must be to find that the bike doesn't instantly respond.”

This is why it is so important to understand countersteering and to practice it so that it becomes second nature. When it comes time that you need to steer quickly to avoid something that has suddenly cropped up in your path you need to be able to react and get the job done as quickly, effortlessly, effectively and smoothly as possible. Countersteering is the only way to get this done.

Keith Code says, “Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it; that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No B.S.”

Because there was conflicting information being spread to a new rider with a question important to safety. If it's not worth getting the answer right in that situation, when is it?

There weren't personal attacks, flames, or trolls in this thread, just some good discussion. There is a difference :thumbup: :cheers:

Thanks, I don't feel like anyone even came close to getting out of line. Seemed like a pretty well mannered debate.:thumbup:

You countersteer after reaching 10-15miles per hour. Try and turn it like a trike and see what happens.

YOU dont steer a bike, you push left and lean left to go left, you push right and lean right to go right.

YOU dont steer a bike, you push left and lean left to go left, you push right and lean right to go right.
...that's steering.

no thats countersteering son, I thought you guys took the msf. You didnt pay attention. You steer a car, you steer a trike, you dont steer a bike once you hit 15mph.

http://youtu.be/HrK_UsbsSro

here you go know it all

heres another, just in case you didnt understand the first

http://youtu.be/0iCWLh1Fyn0

Im not trying to be rude, it is what it is. Peace

I think his point was simply that countersteering is steering. It's just a somewhat surprising method of steering for folks not accustomed to motorcycles, that's all.

true

I love all of yall! Were like a big family

Group hug!

I love all of yall! Were like a big family

Fantastic! Can I borrow some money? :D

I wouldnt want it to get in the way of our relationship :)

Tequillas is one hell of a drug.

YOU dont steer a bike, you push left and lean left to go left, you push right and lean right to go right.

steer/sti(ə)r/
Verb: (of a person) Guide or control the movement of (a vehicle, vessel, or aircraft).

Sounds like steering to me, If you read back further, you would see that I explain countersteering. However, countersteering is still a means of steering a bike.

steer/sti(ə)r/
Verb: (of a person) Guide or control the movement of (a vehicle, vessel, or aircraft).

Sounds like steering to me, If you read back further, you would see that I explain countersteering. However, countersteering is still a means of steering a bike.

Wow just read back to all your youtube posts, and "know it all" remarks. Was that necessary, especially considering that I agreed countersteering is what turns bikes, I believe I cited research to support that claim. My point is you DO steer a bike, buy using countersteering. Remember

steer/sti(ə)r/
Verb: (of a person) Guide or control the movement of (a vehicle, vessel, or aircraft).

Here is the MSF "You and your motorcycle riding tips" page 18 of the
publication:

"When you are riding along the road,
you lean a motorcycle into a turn.
Learning to lean is an essential part of
riding a motorcycle. It is a normal
function of the bike when you are
changing its path of travel – and quite,
quite different from turning the
steering wheel of your car.
To get the motorcycle to lean in a
normal turn, press the handlebar in the
direction of the turn and maintain slight
pressure on that handlebar to take you
smoothly through that particular turn.
In other words: press the right handgrip
to go right; press the left handgrip to go
left. Your instincts to keep the
motorcycle on a smooth path while
keeping it from falling over usually take
care of this without you even noticing it.

(Demonstrate to yourself how a
motorcycle moves by pressing a
handlebar slightly while traveling in a
straight line. The motorcycle will
move in the direction of the handlebar
you pushed.)

Slow down before you enter
the turn; look as far ahead as
possible through the turn.
Keep your feet on the pegs, and
grip the gas tank with your knees.
Lean with the motorcycle; don’t
try to sit perpendicular to the
road while the motorcycle is
leaning over.

Keep an even throttle through the
turn, or even accelerate a little bit".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

yes, yes, it's wikipedia, i know, but it does help understand the basics. it gives a brief physics based explanation of dynamics. towards the end, it mentions that more or less, on heavy bikes (i.e. motorcycles), the affect of rider body position at speed is greatly diminished: "effectiveness of rider lean varies inversely with the mass of the bike." This is due to the increase of the gyroscopic force -among other things - from the wheels and overall bike geometry.

It is why you can completely manhandle pedal bikes and why "i can ride a bike with no handlebars, no handlebars..." They are very light compared to our body weight, so our lean greatly overpowers any physics forces created from the bike itself. This does not carry over to motorcycles, especially when traveling at moderate road speeds. Even the Ninjette..it weighs double, or even triple of what you weigh, and goes much faster than a pedal bike (duh!). Holding the tank and leaning your body MAY move the bike a bit at lower speeds, but the only way to reliably get the bike to change directions is to create a torque on the front wheel (via handlebars) to alter the gyroscopic effect and get the bike turning. This is why countersteering is a MUST. This is also why after a certain speed (a few MPH) you can't pull the handlebar in towards you to make direct turns. The gyroscopic forces will cause you to wreck if you pull the handlebars instead of pushing in the direction you want to lean. Hope this made sense.

You are 7 months too late with that response :p

:peep:

+1

lol i know. it just made me feel like i was doing work while at work because i dont have actual work to work on. :o

Finally you got an avatar, I hate people without an avatar

Finally you got an avatar, I hate people without an avatar

me too!

I also hate people that don't capitalize their name, lazy ****s

It took me forever. At first I didn't feel like editing a picture to make it small enough. Then I just didn't give a fux. But I feel a bit more "at home" on the forum so I said, why nots!

dude it auto edits it for you lmfao

I know but I feel bad when the *'s show up haha. I don't curse much in person either, only when playing PS3 really, boy does that make me mad sometimes haha.

edit: well now i feel stupid too, you were talking about the picture. but last time I tried, the picture would show up in the upload area, but it wouldn't appear under my name for some reason. that's part of the reason I didn't bother.

Well that makes sense, going into paint and hitting sketch/skew takes a good 15 seconds. Anyway glad you got on top of it. Now make a cool gif avatar!

if i had someone to take pictures for me, i would make a gif of me eating that guard rail. mmm mm it was tasty.

if i had someone to take pictures for me, i would make a gif of me eating that guard rail. mmm mm it was tasty.

But Miles "Tails" Prower fits your username better.

I'm glad this thread got bumped because there's some interesting discussion here.
This explanation finally helped me understand countersteering (I'm a newbie yet to take the MSF course). Thanks LazinCajun!


If the bike isn't leaned when you start a turn, centrifugal force (plus the fact that the center of gravity is off the ground) would mean that the bike would fall over to the outside every time. By leaning, roughly speaking you're using the weight of the bike to balance the centrifugal force that wants you to fall to the outside. Therefore, we have to lean the bike to turn without falling (duh!)

There are 2 ways to lean the bike: countersteering or shifting your weight side to side, where the motorcycle shifts the opposite direction.

Think of countersteering as temporarily unbalancing the bike to cause it to lean. The idea is to use the centrifugal force from a short turn in the opposite direction to create the lean necessary to balance the turn. The centrifugal force in turn depends on a) how fast you're going (faster = more force), b) the radius of the turn (tighter = more force), and c) the mass of the bike+rider (not important for this discussion). The size of the centrifugal forces determines how fast you lean over.

What this basically implies is that at very low speeds, it's a little harder to generate a lean from countersteering: because your speed is low, you need a tighter radius to get the same centrifugal force. This is easy to see in practice -- as you go very slowly, say at a stoplight, you need more dramatic steering motions to stay in balance.

Another take on the same idea is that you have slightly less control from countersteering at low speeds, and therefore body positioning gives you relatively more control compared to countersteering at these speeds. That's why counter-weighting is important to making low speed maneuvers like U-Turns.

Here's a video demonstrating most of this:
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wow I hadnt read through this before...

i shook my head a lot.

But Miles "Tails" Prower fits your username better.

it does..i wish i could change it!

The Keith Code bike was built to disprove those who discount the reality of countersteering. When using the bars that are fixed to the bike with the duplicate throttle and brake cables, the rider is asked to try and ride the bike like normal, but without being able to countersteer (as the bars are fixed). Body weight is the only thing that can change direction. What people find out very quickly is that it only works at very, very gentle speeds, and very, very gentle turns. When the speeds ramp up to anything approaching normal or faster, it becomes immediately clear that countersteering is not just a nice to have, it's a requirement to initiate the turn.

Also worth noting is even at those slower turns the bike is just counter steering itself from the movements in the bars.

Anyway counter steering is how EVERYONE turns a bike. People who say they don't do it either aren't turning their bikes very much or don't know they're doing it.

I highly suggest twist of the wrist 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-II-Keith-Code/dp/0965045072/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1335928426&sr=8-2), I learned more from this DVD than I did in MSF.

Despite all the physics involved, I explain countersteering like this... If you want to make a motorcycle turn, you gotta lean. Sure, at a low speed you can move your body to make it lean, but at higher speeds the gyro effect of the wheels will overcome your weight hanging off the side of the bike. So the solution is to make the bike WANT to lean. Since the tires are the only part touching the road, they are the only part that can be FORCED to move left or right. For a high speed right turn, you twitch the handlebars to the left. This causes the front wheel to shoot over to the left... out from under you. Since most of the mass of the bike (including you) is up high, you tend to stay in the same place (left to right). The result is that the bike is nearly instantly leaning to the right. Take a moment and picture this.. you pulled the tires to the left, the top stayed in the same place, it's gotta be leaning. Once you achieve the correct lean angle, you let the handlebars go "neutral". The bike will maintain it's current lean. When finished with the turn, you gotta make it stand up again. Do this by steering into the turn. This will in effect drive the wheels directly under the center of gravity of the bike, undoing the lean.

Wanna see this in action? Stand a yardstick vertical in the palm of your hand. I you want to move right, you have to make the yard stick lean to the right.... and you do that by twitching your hand to the left, causing it to start to fall. You and it move to the right. When you are ready to stop moving, you have to rush your and under the yardstick to make the bottom catch up to the top. Once it is vertical again, you can stop it moving to the right. Yardstick too fast to see this??? try an 8 foot 2x4!!

Great info. Found that i already do it, but good to remember.

I don't think about countersteering ever. I do it so I can turn. My brain does it w/o me even thinking. Generally I don't put a lot of thought into basic functioning of the bike. I focus more on the road in front of me.

Funny that this still comes up, but I like the yardstick example... it's really easy for people to visualize without other-thinking it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWH_QiXw5n4&t=4m15s


know this is a little late but only just found this on youtube

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

nice... =D
read the whole thing...
im new to riding and honestly thats what i thought
that i could just lean and do that but the whole lag
while switching lanes and that i do that but i guess all i can do
is practice...
im still trying to do the knee on the ground thing but ill hit a turn then ill just
feel my sack retract into my stomach... :eek:

im still trying to do the knee on the ground thing but ill hit a turn then ill just
feel my sack retract into my stomach... :eek:

Hilarious but I feel ya takes a while to get comfortable

you should never be "trying" to get your knee down. its a side effect of being leaned over all the way. "trying" to get your knee down means you are probably riding crossed up. if you want better riding posture, work on getting your face low enough to drag on the ground. ( <-- it sounds like i'm kidding but i'm not )

I counter steer when I need to. It naturally comes to you. This is what I've learned :)

When I started riding in '08, I found that counter-steering was very easy to pickup with very little effort or focus.

Although, now that I think about it, everything was practice, so I was more intentional about EVERYTHING to learn and maintain proper technique. I used to say, "outside-inside-outside" to myself when I setup turns, etc.

However, I do remember a trip down from Tahoe when my arms where starting to get a little fatigued. Then I learned to lean and get out of my seat when I was more aggressive, and found I could have significantly more stamina. When I started I was pretty much planted, and it was all counter-steering.

I remember the ride home from the dealer (first ever). I had heard of counter-steering in the months before, but only because I was doing forum research online for months prior. I asked the dealer how to turn, and he just said, "lean." I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that, because I think he just didn't want to confuse/overwhelm a newbie, and knew I would do it anyway unintentionally. On the way home I was on a good straight road and thought I would do my own little 'myth buster' experiment on the counter-steering. Just the slightest push, and my bike started to lean in that direction. "HOLY #%#%#@$^," I thought. "THIS STUFF IS REAL." Myth = confirmed.

I counter steer when I need to. It naturally comes to you. This is what I've learned :)

note that front wheel control with a spinning rear tire is very different from calm street bike thats no where close to the edge of traction. when your rear wheel is spinning up, throttle control has about as much impact on turning the bike as the bars do.

note that front wheel control with a spinning rear tire is very different from calm street bike thats no where close to the edge of traction. when your rear wheel is spinning up, throttle control has about as much impact on turning the bike as the bars do.

I think I know what you mean. On my bike...when ever the rear comes sliding out (best feeling in the world) if you put more throttle, it slides out more...you most likely know this lol I'm pretty sure it's similar on pavement. At least that's what it seems like on WSB and MotoGP lol

I think I know what you mean. On my bike...when ever the rear comes sliding out (best feeling in the world) if you put more throttle, it slides out more...you most likely know this lol I'm pretty sure it's similar on pavement. At least that's what it seems like on WSB and MotoGP lol

same deal, but you are dealing with a lot more traction, so the forces you are dealing with (braking forces, acceleration forces) are also much higher than on the dirt. the slightest difference in throttle control makes a huge difference while sliding the rear on the pavement compared to the dirt. especially trying to pull the rear tire back in by closing the throttle a bit. if you are too quick it catches really fast and you go flying off the bike.

you should never be "trying" to get your knee down. its a side effect of being leaned over all the way. "trying" to get your knee down means you are probably riding crossed up. if you want better riding posture, work on getting your face low enough to drag on the ground. ( <-- it sounds like i'm kidding but i'm not )

Alex, you're actually pretty smart. You give great advice (except for your occasional sexist comments! :p ) hehe!

What I learned at MSF was just push in the direction you want to go, and bike leans that way, roll on throttle, keep your head looking where you want to go.

I was going nuts the first day with the countersteer "press" directions. I was like wtf is press on the handlebars they are staying stationary. I was confusing press with gripping down on them too hard.

By that time I was told to sit on the bike and act like I have a string in my hands about the width of the handle bars. By press meaning actually move your hands to the side you want to go,making the bike lean over.

Alex, you're actually pretty smart. You give great advice (except for your occasional sexist comments! :p ) hehe!

hahahaha! thanks. :)

Just the slightest push, and my bike started to lean in that direction. "HOLY #%#%#@$^," I thought. "THIS STUFF IS REAL." Myth = confirmed.

I just loled. I love discussing countersteer but there's no point in repeating what has clearly been explained and re-explained in different words by pretty much everyone on here haha. And YES, ITS REAL!!

same deal, but you are dealing with a lot more traction, so the forces you are dealing with (braking forces, acceleration forces) are also much higher than on the dirt. The slightest difference in throttle control makes a huge difference while sliding the rear on the pavement compared to the dirt. Especially trying to pull the rear tire back in by closing the throttle a bit. If you are too quick it catches really fast and you go flying off the bike.

highside :)

I'll throw in my two cents, as if anyone cares. First, I've seen several people in this thread say something to the effect of, "I don't think about countersteering. It just happens." That's the wrong attitude to have. Here's why. You will be able to get through the vast majority of your motorcycling life doing just what you're doing. You can kinda look where you want to go, kinda flop your bike over, and it will kinda turn.

That's all fine and good, but someday you'll goon it up. Someday you will enter a turn way too fast, or a turn will tighten up unexpectedly. If you have spent your motorcycling life "not really thinking about countersteeriing," you're screwed. You're not going to be able to invent that skill in the second or so you have to fix your problem. You'll freeze on the handgrips and ride off into the woods. It happens all the time. You'd be better off thinking about your technique for every turn and being very deliberate. Look into the turn. Press on the handgrip. Roll on the throttle. If you do that all the time, you'll develop the ability to ask that little extra out of your bike when you need it.

Someone else said they don't think about countersteering at the track. Here's some advice. Start thinking about it. Use a firm countersteering input to get the bike flipped on its side as quickly as possible. All the time you spend going from straight up-and-down from leaned over is essentially wasted. You're not braking, you're not (really) turning, and you're not accelerating. Use countersteering to get the bike turning quickly. You will be able to move your brake markers in, and also make the turn more easily.

Agreed.

I was just having a conversation with someone that was very similar, although the subject in that case was aviation. The principle is the same though... theory IS important because one day you WILL need to apply it practically. However, in this case we are also talking about everyday application.

My challenge to all = say something that has not been said about the topic that still contributes to the original discussion. :p

"still contributes" is quite a low bar. :)

"still contributes" is quite a low bar. :)

LOL, yes.... and quite relative too.

They were pretty clear during my MSF BRC: You must know counter-steering for emergency swerves, which require two rapid counter inputs.

Agreed.

I was just having a conversation with someone that was very similar, although the subject in that case was aviation. .

Pitch vs power ? :D

Pitch vs power ? :D

Who knows... that was 4 years ago.