I was joyriding around Westlake in Austin today...windy road in a neighbourhood in the hills. 20mph turn sign, I go into it at 25-30, and I can't see the turn exit b/c of the trees...when I get to "apex" (or where I thought it would be) the turn sharpens...it's one of those 0.1% "we really meant 20mph back there on the sign" turns. Of course, contrary to what TOWTII says, I close the throttle, stand up the bike some, slow down and then lean to continue the turn.
Any tips on how to combat that fear of leaning more as I see the double yellow line approaching, other than "find yourself a nice quiet road and practice"?
Thanks.

Look further into the corner, don't look down. It's all about trusting your bike/tires. The type of corner your talking about is a "decreasing radius."

Follow me if you get a chance... I hit the roads like an IOM TT qualifier (when traffic is light and with all gear). Welcome to the forum - and practice is the best thing for overcoming survial reactions.

Look further into the corner, don't look down. It's all about trusting your bike/tires. The type of corner your talking about is a "decreasing radius."

Strangely enough, I've gone through some of those other corners where I'm going 30-40 and I see that I start drifting wide...then the voice inside my head goes "trust your bike, lean more" and I come out OK.
On this corner the voice in my head never got there...I chopped the throttle, stood up and then after the corner was done I went "yep...read that in the book, should not have done that".

Follow me if you get a chance... I hit the roads like an IOM TT qualifier (when traffic is light and with all gear). Welcome to the forum - and practice is the best thing for overcoming survial reactions.

Thanks, I'll PM you sometime.

I was joyriding around Westlake in Austin today...windy road in a neighbourhood in the hills. 20mph turn sign, I go into it at 25-30, and I can't see the turn exit b/c of the trees...when I get to "apex" (or where I thought it would be) the turn sharpens...it's one of those 0.1% "we really meant 20mph back there on the sign" turns. Of course, contrary to what TOWTII says, I close the throttle, stand up the bike some, slow down and then lean to continue the turn.
Any tips on how to combat that fear of leaning more as I see the double yellow line approaching, other than "find yourself a nice quiet road and practice"?
Thanks.

I have some tips for you.

1st.... rewatch twist of the wrist II - It doesn't say to "close the throttle" it says to "roll off" and to practice rolling off as much as your roll on. Your original post is about confidence, so do whatever it takes to keep as much traction as possible, in the end game it will boost your confidence.

Now as far as working your lean angle. What austexjg said is the best comment thus far. But work on your SR's with a plan. Seat time is important, but not without a goal.

Aside of looking through the turns as much as possible and throttle control. Good body position & the hook turn drill will go a long way toward your confidence. You will not be leaned over as far nor as long and have good traction the whole time.

Go to a track day, find a rider you trust to review your form. But take baby steps. Full lean don't happen overnight.

Best of luck and keep us posted,

"trust your bike, lean more" and I come out OK.

+1. I've done this lots of times and probably never come close to what the bike is capable of, but it sure scares the crap out of me.

+1. I've done this lots of times and probably never come close to what the bike is capable of, but it sure scares the crap out of me.

-1 Never BLINDLY trust your bike or tires. Know what you as a rider and bike are capable of before you need it. Trust yourself instead and get help ahead of time. Sure when it happens it will be scary, but not a crap shoot.

grrr.... cut my post off.

Right, but when the issue is not trusting the tires or bike enough, and instead a rider chooses to run wide or go offline when they could very well have put the bike right where they wanted, it does become a matter of trust. That's not advocating blind trust, it's just that newer riders sometimes don't realize how capable the tires/bike/etc. can be when handled smoothly.

Indeed Alex, I guess I got ahead of myself there a bit....

Your right Alex. almost two weeks ago was my 4th time riding out in traffic. I guess i didnt have enough trust in my bike...there was a sharp turn and i tried to make it...but didnt lean like i should have because i didnt want to tip over....well end of the story is, i hit the curb and trashed my bike. as soon as its put back together i am going to practice more and get to know my bike so i can trust her more :)

Scoot your butt off the bike into the direction you're leaning. A member posted a simple, but amazing video that changed the amount of lean possible.. dramatically.

this video gives a pretty good example of how to hang off. it will make the bike stay more upright and you can take those decreasing radius turns with confidence

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Worry less about hanging off as of now and more about your line choice. Starting on the outside of the corner, looking ALL THE WAY THROUGH, and doing a quick flick (ie: delayed apex) will get you the best line. Many riders start leaning too soon. Delaying your lean just a little gives you more time to see what's ahead of you before committing to your line. By delaying your apex, you now have to do a very hard turn in and get it done quickly. The less time leaned over, the better. Having a good line will get you out of more corners than having good form alone (ask me how I know! ;) ), so work on line selection first, and then focus more on your form through the curve. Also, as my MSF instructor said, "Your bike will lean a LOT farther than you will be comfortable leaning it." :)

Just remember...if the pegs arent scraping...the bike still has more lean left in it. Im not saying scrape pegs in every corner, Im saying many riders "think" they've reached the lean limit, when they haven't even come close.

It takes a while to trust the bike, but 90% of the cornering problems are rider initiated, not bike initiated.

Take a right hand corner for example:

As you approach the right hand corner, complete all your braking, downshifting BEFORE you start your turn-in/lean. When you start your turn-in, you should be back on the throttle for "maintaining throttle" (in other words, hold whatcha got for the turn, its actually a very slight acceleration) When you are ready to start turning, shift your upper torso so that your right shoulder is in line with the right bar end. Look through the turn. Elbows in, but no closer to your torso than your shoulders. You will find that your left forearm is parallel to the bike. You will be counter-steering, so push on the inside bar to begin turning. The bike is going to lean. So be ready. You use your outside knee to grip the ridge on the tank and hold you on the bike. . Also, dont go hanging your entire butt of the bike. 1/2-1 buttcheek is sufficient. If your whole butt is off the seat, then you cant feel what the rear end is doing. And when it breaks loose, you wont know it until you are sliding on pavement. Dont worry about getting a knee down, its not necessary

Getting a knee down, is used as a measurement tool..Nothing more, nothing less. Racers use their knees as a measurement to tell them when they've reached their max lean angle. When they feel the knee puck touch pavement, they know to hold what they got, and dont go further. Its not really applicable for street riding, unless you are using it for that purpose.

When you hit the apex, start rolling on the throttle, the rear will start hooking up, and you will keep turning while accelerating towards the exit. Hold your body position till you know you can complete the turn. Release the pressure on the counter-steer while moving your torso back in line with the bike, for a smooth exit.

You want to keep 60%/40% traction management at all times. In other words, 60% of your weight on one wheel, and 40% on the other.
So while breaking, you want 60% on the front, and 40% on the back.
Under acceleration, you want 60% on the rear, and 40% on the front.
Try to keep the 60/40 rule throughout your cornering. Any transition between 60/40 to 40/60 should be done as quickly AND as smoothly as possible. Dont be in the middle of a corner at 50/50...you're unsettling the chassis and taking away much of its cornering ability.

i'm going to take a different stance on this subject... sure you could lean further... you could also find yourself getting in too deep.

it sounds like the problem was stated in the first few sentences... lack of course knowledge... remember, is it a t-rex? rawr. is it a crab? snap snap. always know your asphalt, and what animal it looks like, before you try to go fast on it. otherwise you wind up thinking about the whales mouth and go wide and crash out.

If it's your FIRST TIME in a given corner, go slower than you would like, even if you can see all the way through. Go extra slow if you can't. Once you know the corner, you can increase the speed gradually. And on the corner entry: slow in, fast out.

As others have said, practice leaning in parking lot first. Then take it to the road, but at milder lean angles. It takes many months to years to get a good feel of your bike, don't rush it.

twist of the wrist II

This! I learned so much more from that video

Go to a few track days and get free instruction, you'll learn more there than any forum/video/parking lot will ever teach you.

And get good tires.

Go to a few track days and get free instruction, you'll learn more there than any forum/video/parking lot will ever teach you.

And get good tires.

+1 I've only been to 1 track day but have another coming up in a month. After a couple sessions an instructor pulled up on me, pointed to the back of his bike and had me follow him for 3 laps. Thats when I learned how much more my bike can do and how much quicker I could run those same corners. Then on the 4th lap he put it into race mode and I never saw him again.

Go to a few track days and get free instruction, you'll learn more there than any forum/video/parking lot will ever teach you.

And get good tires.

FTW!!


You could have tightened your line by modulating the throttle, but I suspect you're not yet experienced enough to do that. While doing a full roll off or chop of the throttle in a corner may stand the bike up, by using minor inputs, you can adjust your line.

Of course, the safest thing to do is to ride under the speed limit, especially under the number posted as the "safe speed" for a given corner until you know how to corner properly.