View Full Version : My friend dropped my bike! and doesn't know why..


Crriiissss
November 10th, 2011, 01:38 PM
Well I'm here at work and my gf tells me that she's going to practice riding on my bike with her brother (who also has a 250). So I'm like ok, enjoy, and just ride carefully. My gf didn't want to risk dropping my bike at all so she tells her brother to ride mine and she'll ride his. An hour after she said she was going to go practice, she called me and said her brother dropped my bike! I couldn't really talk much since I was busy at work so I only got little info on what happened. According to her brother, the bike just locked up and I'm guessing he fell off forward and the bike fell on the floor. I also heard him saying over the phone that there must be something wrong with my gear box? He said he didn't brake or do anything out of the ordinary so he doesn't really know what caused the bike to just lock. He's also a new rider along with me and my gf but hes had his bike since May and ride it almost every single day. I bought the bike used in August and put about 1000 miles on it and have never had a problem with it since than and we changed the oil less than 50 miles ago. Any ideas on what might have happened?

Btw my friend is fine, my gf said he just rolled a little but got up right away. I'm not upset or anything just glad he's ok, and hopefully my bike isn't as scratched up when i get home :(

Nemesis
November 10th, 2011, 01:49 PM
Sucks to hear but I'm 99% sure it was rider error.

I'm just saying..

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 01:50 PM
Never heard anything like this happen before. The only thing I can think of is possible false neutral and it popped down to 1st unexpectedly and surprised him. This would be caused by a weak shift to 2nd that usually is ok until throttle is released and then it'll pop down a gear.

For new riders, I think its mostly things that startle them over things that are actually wrong with the bike.

BUT to be honest. Not to be mean or anything but I call BS. It is much easier to blame something wrong with the bike than take responsibility for a poor decision while riding. We'll need more info on the damages and a better explanation from your GF's brother to make a more accurate prediction on what happened.

akima
November 10th, 2011, 01:57 PM
I'm with Nemesis and Brian; I think he probably just blamed the bike to save his ego and maybe some of his money. If he flat out admitted to dropping your bike through his own negligence, then he'd have to flat-out pay you for the damage... things aren't so straight forward if "it was the bikes fault" :( Hope your bike turns out to be ok. You'll be in a difficult situation if it isn't.

alex.s
November 10th, 2011, 01:59 PM
"when i push hard on the rear brake it locked up the tire and kicked me off the bike. your bike has issues bro im not paying for the repairs. you should pay me for my hospital bill"

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 02:04 PM
Actually, thinking more about this situation. If I were you I would have insisted that my GF be the rider as opposed to her brother. At least this way she'll OWE you... :) and that could always be fun... can anyone say brinner? yummmmm

akima
November 10th, 2011, 02:05 PM
Actually, thinking more about this situation. If I were you I would have insisted that my GF be the rider as opposed to her brother. At least this way she'll OWE you... :) and that could always be fun... can anyone say brinner? yummmmm

"brinner"! Had to look that up :p You Americans! ;)

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 03:03 PM
I've been riding since before I got my license in August 2011 and I never dropped my bike once.

Today, I got on my friend's bike, and dropped it.

earlier in the ride, I went over some bumps... lots of bumps, and heard A LOT of rattling in... the gear box? sounded like it came from the gear shifter but I wasn't exactly sure where and I'm not sure if this is the cause of the problem.

so... later, I'm going really slow and am making a right turn now. I'm turning erected since I was going so slow. There was very little leaning since it wasnt needed. All of a sudden I'm flying off the bike. I go for a nice rolling landing. The landing was as good as it can ever get. Bike is now on the road with very little scratches. I go there to pick it up and then it dies as soon as it's straight up again.

why is the bike still on when it was on the floor? It was in 1st gear and no one was pressing the clutch... yet it was still running normally.

what happened? I didn't press the brakes, I didn't let go off the clutch until I found myself flying off the bike. I didn't get a chance to accelerate through the turn yet. I felt as if I was running, and someone stuck their foot out and tripped me.

The bike slid two feet across the pavement on it's side.

akima
November 10th, 2011, 03:06 PM
I'm guessing that this thread (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90805) was made by your friend :rolleyes:

As for what happened. Only explanation I can think of is: 1st gear is sometimes jerky. If you let off the throttle a bit in first gear while turning, then it's possible the jerkiness caused the front wheel to loose traction. The front wheel may then have turned fully in one direction, then suddenly regained traction throwing you off.

If that did happen, it wasn't the bikes fault. That would be rider error for having poor throttle control and/or being in the wrong gear for the turn.

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 03:07 PM
"brinner"! Had to look that up :p You Americans! ;)

What? You dont have brinner?

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 03:12 PM
Does the bike run normal after the accident? Maybe something got caught in the front tire.

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 03:14 PM
ha.. I just started a thread before I saw this one.

instead of writing everything again. Here's my story.

I was riding and hit a lot of bumps, and I heard a lot of noises (rattling) by the gear shifter. I didn't want to do anything so I just rode straight. After all the bumps I just went to a stop light and shifted to nuetral and back to first. Everything appears to be normal.

10 mins later, I'm making a right turn on first or 2nd gear (not sure), a very slow right turn. I'm not leaning since this turn is too slow. Half way through the turn, I fly forward as if the wheel locked up. I get up walk to the bike and it's still on.

How is that even possible? No one is grabbing the clutch? bike dies as soon as it's fully erected.

akima
November 10th, 2011, 03:17 PM
ha.. I just started a thread before I saw this one.

instead of writing everything again. Here's my story.

I was riding and hit a lot of bumps, and I heard a lot of noises (rattling) by the gear shifter. I didn't want to do anything so I just rode straight. After all the bumps I just went to a stop light and shifted to nuetral and back to first. Everything appears to be normal.

10 mins later, I'm making a right turn on first or 2nd gear (not sure), a very slow right turn. I'm not leaning since this turn is too slow. Half way through the turn, I fly forward as if the wheel locked up. I get up walk to the bike and it's still on.

How is that even possible? No one is grabbing the clutch? bike dies as soon as it's fully erected.

If you want to avoid starting two conversations in two different threads about the exact same event, then you should probably delete the above post and let people reply in the new thread (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90812) you made.

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 03:17 PM
Alex merge thread http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90812

When you stand the bike back up it probably flooded the engine with gas and died.

Back OT, was the rattling a loose chain? We need more details on what the bike looks like now. Is it running normal now?

From the other thread... why was clutch pulled in on a turn? You said it ran fine and was able to ride home normally after the accident. Was there any rattling then? Anything out of the ordinary?

Did you release the clutch mid turn?

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 03:17 PM
I'm guessing that this thread (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90805) was made by your friend :rolleyes:

As for what happened. Only explanation I can think of is: 1st gear is sometimes jerky. If you let off the throttle a bit in first gear while turning, then it's possible the jerkiness caused the front wheel to loose traction. The front wheel may then have turned fully in one direction, then suddenly regained traction throwing you off.

If that did happen, it wasn't the bikes fault. That would be rider error for having poor throttle control and/or being in the wrong gear for the turn.

lol yea that's him. didnt see that

I'm not sure what you're saying... but the turn was SMOOTH... no jerkiness, if that is what you were asking. I fully pressed the clutch, with no throttle.

Does the bike run normal after the accident? Maybe something got caught in the front tire.

I stood the bike up after the drop. It died as soon as it stood up. I tried starting the bike. It didn't turn over, so I shifted into nuetral, took the key out completely waited 3 seconds, and it turned on normally and rode normally afterward.

besides little pebbles, nothing else was around.

akima
November 10th, 2011, 03:21 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying... but the turn was SMOOTH... no jerkiness, if that is what you were asking. I fully pressed the clutch, with no throttle.


Ah: if the turn was smooth, then that rules out my theory.

My second theory was that a very small alien ran up to the bike during the turn and stuck an unobtainium rod between the spokes in the front wheel :p

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 03:21 PM
If you want to avoid starting two conversations in two different threads about the exact same event, then you should probably delete the above post and let people reply in the new thread (http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90812) you made.

I'll respond here from now on then

Alex merge thread http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90812

When you stand the bike back up it probably flooded the engine with gas and died.

Back OT, was the rattling a loose chain? We need more details on what the bike looks like now. Is it running normal now?

loose chain...? maybe. I don't know what I loose chain sounds like and every passing moment I can't remember what the sound sounded like. To describe it perfectly, it sounded like maybe the kickstand was loose and just jumping up and down, but not exactly... there was no "snapping" sound that it makes when you raise it all the way. I'm not sure if it was that or inside the bike. Running perfectly.

Very little damage/scratches, not picture worthy.

akima
November 10th, 2011, 03:24 PM
What? You dont have brinner?

If we do have brinner, then no one told me and I missed out on a lot of food!

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 03:25 PM
My second theory was that a very small alien ran up to the bike during the turn and stuck an unobtainium rod between the spokes in the front wheel :p

That's who stole it. Sean and I have been looking all over for unobtainium for our deathproof project... next time you run into the little guy grab the rod before he sneaks away.

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 03:31 PM
Alex merge thread http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90812

When you stand the bike back up it probably flooded the engine with gas and died.

Back OT, was the rattling a loose chain? We need more details on what the bike looks like now. Is it running normal now?

From the other thread... why was clutch pulled in on a turn? You said it ran fine and was able to ride home normally after the accident. Was there any rattling then? Anything out of the ordinary?

Did you release the clutch mid turn?

The clutch was fully squeezed because I had enough speed to make that turn. I didn't need to brake or accelerate. It was the perfect speed, not because it happened to be that way, but I entered the turn at the exact speed I wanted. no rattling that I heard afterward. nothing new or strange.

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 03:33 PM
My second theory was that a very small alien ran up to the bike during the turn and stuck an unobtainium rod between the spokes in the front wheel :p

this definitely crossed my mind at least once

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 03:43 PM
The clutch was fully squeezed because I had enough speed to make that turn. I didn't need to brake or accelerate. It was the perfect speed, not because it happened to be that way, but I entered the turn at the exact speed I wanted. no rattling that I heard afterward. nothing new or strange.

Understood but for future riding... dont do that. Just dont. Always have the clutch released and use the throttle to maintain speed if not increase the speed a little.

If there is nothing wrong then I would just chalk it up to a freak accident. You were the rider, if you dont sense anything wrong with the bike now and you dont see anything wrong with your riding at the time... look over the bike once more and let it go.

akima
November 10th, 2011, 03:47 PM
The clutch was fully squeezed because I had enough speed to make that turn. I didn't need to brake or accelerate. It was the perfect speed, not because it happened to be that way, but I entered the turn at the exact speed I wanted. no rattling that I heard afterward. nothing new or strange.

I'm quite a noobie, but I'm pretty sure you're supposed to have drive to the rear wheel while you're going round a corner. Keith Code said you should smoothly and slowly apply more power to the rear wheel as you go round the corner... he talks about really high speed stuff though, but I bet the principles still apply to casual road riding.

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Understood but for future riding... dont do that. Just dont. Always have the clutch released and use the throttle to maintain speed if not increase the speed a little.

If there is nothing wrong then I would just chalk it up to a freak accident. You were the rider, if you dont sense anything wrong with the bike now and you dont see anything wrong with your riding at the time... look over the bike once more and let it go.

So ur saying I should always enter the turn accelerating until completion at least a little to maintain speed? I ride the motorcycle like I ride my bike... I let the speed vary at what ever comfort level I feel atm.

I haven't spoken to the owner yet... so if he's reading this "sorry cris" :D

Ill pay for whatever damage he feels I need to fix... but besides for the new 1" long, 1cm thick scratch on the muffler... come on... lol

Ill buy u dinner :-) minados?

EsrTek
November 10th, 2011, 03:54 PM
Entered too slow, and with the clutch in all the weight was on the front tire, which probably hit one of those little pebbles you mentioned (I think in other thread).
As Brian said... always have the clutch engaged and maintain throttle, so the weight is on the rear tire.

Jono
November 10th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Somebody needs to take the MSF class. They will teach you how to roll on to the throttle in a turn. Never have the clutch in on a turn. Never. That's silly. Same with a car but I am guessing you don't drive a manual or you would know this already. I am glad there is little damage and you learned a lesson. It happens. Take the MSF course!!!! You seem like a perfect candidate for it. :thumbup:

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 04:03 PM
Have you taken the MSF course? They should have mentioned that. Really at no time should the clutch be pulled in unless coming to a stop... having power to the rear wheel helps stabilize and smooth the bike. If you need to dampen some of the jerking in 1st or 2nd gear... use the rear brake gently instead or just engine brake.

Regardless, all braking done before a turn and preferably maintain or accelerate out of a turn. Cagers make this extra difficult because they tend to enter a turn fast and brake the whole way out. Especially on on-ramps.

Blah got caught up talking with my brother so response was posted too late.... for the record I agree with Eric and Jono... so yes that is exactly what i'm saying.

akima
November 10th, 2011, 04:04 PM
So ur saying I should always enter the turn accelerating until completion at least a little to maintain speed? I ride the motorcycle like I ride my bike... I let the speed vary at what ever comfort level I feel atm.

I haven't spoken to the owner yet... so if he's reading this "sorry cris" :D

Ill pay for whatever damage he feels I need to fix... but besides for the new 1" long, 1cm thick scratch on the muffler... come on... lol

Ill buy u dinner :-) minados?

Can't believe Cristian lent you his bike lol ;)

Stick around on this forum. There's lots of knowledgeable folk that can help you in your journey to mould your noobie brain into something a little more suitable for operating a motorcycle :p

alex.s
November 10th, 2011, 04:06 PM
how did you come off the bike? you are leaving some important details out. you were making a very slow right turn... how slow? 10mph or 2 mph? which direction did the bike fall? which direction did you fall? over the handlebars? to the side? were you transitioning onto pavement from asphalt? was there a curb? were you standing up on the bike or sitting down? if the bike locked up one or even both of the tires unless you stoppie-launched yourself, it wouldnt just stop like that unless you hit something. it would more likely skid into a slide.

did you hit something?

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 04:39 PM
how did you come off the bike? you are leaving some important details out. you were making a very slow right turn... how slow? 10mph or 2 mph? which direction did the bike fall? which direction did you fall? over the handlebars? to the side? were you transitioning onto pavement from asphalt? was there a curb? were you standing up on the bike or sitting down? if the bike locked up one or even both of the tires unless you stoppie-launched yourself, it wouldnt just stop like that unless you hit something. it would more likely skid into a slide.

did you hit something?

I'm so glad u asked the important questions. Guessing 10mph. I flew over the right handlebar. Bike fell to the right. Pavement.. asphault... not same thing? Lol curb... dodged it. Sis saw me. Stting down. Don't really now if wheels locked up. Felt like it though. One moment I'm moving, one moment I'm over the bike. I didn't sense anything out of the ordinary until I was over the bike. I skidded a few times as applied the brakes to stop myself from getting run over by reckless cars... so I know what a skid feels like. I did not skid. Even though it felt like I hit something... there was nothing to hit. I checked.

What I really want to know is why the engine was still running when no one was pressing the clutch while it was in 1st or 2nd gear

alex.s
November 10th, 2011, 04:44 PM
sounds like you turned into a parking lot with your wheel at a 45 to the bump of the entrance while going too slow. wheel caught the indent in the pavement and push the front of the wheel to the left, making the bike drop to the right while you go straight over the right handlebar.

sorry bro, go straight over bumps.

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 04:50 PM
sounds like you turned into a parking lot with your wheel at a 45 to the bump of the entrance while going too slow. wheel caught the indent in the pavement and push the front of the wheel to the left, making the bike drop to the right while you go straight over the right handlebar.

sorry bro, go straight over bumps.

No bumps. No potholes. No curb near where I fell. I know to go straight over bumps... its on the written test

alex.s
November 10th, 2011, 04:54 PM
so what you are saying is that for absolutely no reason the bike went one way and you went another way?

alex.s
November 10th, 2011, 04:58 PM
ok i re-read everything you wrote. after re-reading it sounds like your rear gave and slid out before catching and high-siding you over the top. still sounds like you are leaving out a big detail ... like how your rear could slide out from you when you were going 10mph while straight up. sounds to me like it was more like 25, and straight up actually means about 45d over.

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 05:00 PM
so what you are saying is that for absolutely no reason the bike went one way and you went another way?

I'm saying... it was a right turn so it makes sense for it to fall to the right. Flying over the right handle bar means... bike stopped. It makes sense. Best theory I have is front tire kicked a pebble up and it flew into the chain

alex.s
November 10th, 2011, 05:05 PM
if your rear tire stopped instantly yoou would not go flying over the bike. you and the bike weigh at least 450 lbs. your rear tire will skid out to the side long before that would ever happen. it would be a challenge to get the bike to do that even with the front tire.

jd254
November 10th, 2011, 05:13 PM
if your rear tire stopped instantly yoou would not go flying over the bike. you and the bike weigh at least 450 lbs. your rear tire will skid out to the side long before that would ever happen. it would be a challenge to get the bike to do that even with the front tire.

Not saying I don't believe you. I went over the right handlebar, most likely not completely legs over, but definitely left shoulder/chest.

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 08:26 PM
10mph is like brisk walking speed... well not really but still that is slowwwww... The bike handles very differently going that slow. Who knows what happened but since the bike ran fine after... I doubt there is anything wrong with it.

More than likedly its the combination of clutch being pulled in, super slow speed at 10mph, in a turn, and a new rider that caused this to happen.

At this point... let it go... work it out with your friend on the repairs and keep riding. Oh and before it gets shrouded in all the posts... TAKE THE MSF!!!!!!!!!! :)

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 08:30 PM
if your rear tire stopped instantly yoou would not go flying over the bike. you and the bike weigh at least 450 lbs. your rear tire will skid out to the side long before that would ever happen. it would be a challenge to get the bike to do that even with the front tire.

what if an invisible wall the size of the front tire magically appeared? That would cause this situation wouldnt it?

nickjpass
November 10th, 2011, 08:42 PM
"brinner"! Had to look that up :p You Americans! ;)

I live in America and have never heard that word...haha.

choneofakind
November 10th, 2011, 08:45 PM
What? You dont have brinner?

They probably do, it's just pronounced and spelled differently across the pond the ninjette.org resident honorary squirrel just has no idea what it means when spelled in Amerrruhcin.

Jiggles
November 10th, 2011, 09:17 PM
I live in America and have never heard that word...haha.

You're on the wrong side of America:cool:

nickjpass
November 10th, 2011, 09:24 PM
I like the climate here better than the west coast. More beautiful here too :thumbup: nothing special about deserts, besides the fact that you have a year round riding season :D

Pro's and con's...pro's and con's...

Jiggles
November 10th, 2011, 09:27 PM
I like the climate here better than the west coast. More beautiful here too :thumbup: nothing special about deserts, besides the fact that you have a year round riding season :D

Pro's and con's...pro's and con's...

I had no idea the bay area was a desert :rolleyes:

setasai
November 10th, 2011, 09:40 PM
To be fair I love NY. Seasons are amazing. California isnt horrible but I get annoyed that the weather doesnt make up its mind. It's warm enough to use a mesh jacket when the sun's out but I need a heated liner at night. That's just ridiculous. Either be cold all day all month or just stay warm!

Plus... the fact that there is snow isnt going to stop me from riding... knobby tires + full heated gear = :thumbup:

akima
November 11th, 2011, 02:49 AM
ninjette.org resident honorary squirrel

:D

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 05:21 AM
10mph is like brisk walking speed... well not really but still that is slowwwww... The bike handles very differently going that slow. Who knows what happened but since the bike ran fine after... I doubt there is anything wrong with it.

More than likedly its the combination of clutch being pulled in, super slow speed at 10mph, in a turn, and a new rider that caused this to happen.

At this point... let it go... work it out with your friend on the repairs and keep riding. Oh and before it gets shrouded in all the posts... TAKE THE MSF!!!!!!!!!! :)

I know how slow 10mph is... that's why when my brother taught me how to ride, one of the lesson was "ride with no throttle" and I did that for a an hour or so. Then I taught my sis the same thing. You want to call me a noob.. ok fine, but don't assume I didn't know what I was doing. I've done extra slow turns hundreds of times.

I didn't skid... I can catch a skid n not fall. I've done that at least 3 times on my motorcycle and hundreds of times on a bike.

If u want to say it was a "noobie mistake.".. fine. I'm not gunna argue. But that doesn't explain anything for me.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 05:37 AM
dammit... I'm such a noob. I doubled posted.

nickjpass
November 11th, 2011, 09:49 AM
To be fair I love NY. Seasons are amazing. California isnt horrible but I get annoyed that the weather doesnt make up its mind. It's warm enough to use a mesh jacket when the sun's out but I need a heated liner at night. That's just ridiculous. Either be cold all day all month or just stay warm!

Plus... the fact that there is snow isnt going to stop me from riding... knobby tires + full heated gear = :thumbup:

Good luck riding on the roads that they "clean".

setasai
November 11th, 2011, 10:27 AM
I know how slow 10mph is... that's why when my brother taught me how to ride, one of the lesson was "ride with no throttle" and I did that for a an hour or so. Then I taught my sis the same thing. You want to call me a noob.. ok fine, but don't assume I didn't know what I was doing. I've done extra slow turns hundreds of times.

I didn't skid... I can catch a skid n not fall. I've done that at least 3 times on my motorcycle and hundreds of times on a bike.

If u want to say it was a "noobie mistake.".. fine. I'm not gunna argue. But that doesn't explain anything for me.

But that's just the thing. We dont know how to explain it so all I am saying is just move on. What do you expect us to say? You say that there was no obstruction, you didnt do any sudden moves, and the bike runs fine. There is no conclusion to be drawn so move on and hope it doesnt happen again. If it does, hopefully you'll have more information on the conditions and we'll be able to provide more feedback.

FYI, skidding isnt ok. Another one of those dont do or avoid categories.

The MSF recommendation still stands. If neither you or your sister has taken it, you should. I'm not saying that your brother taught you incorrectly, I'm just saying you'll probably still benefit from the class so there is no reason not to take it just to be safe.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 10:43 AM
But that's just the thing. We dont know how to explain it so all I am saying is just move on. What do you expect us to say? You say that there was no obstruction, you didnt do any sudden moves, and the bike runs fine. There is no conclusion to be drawn so move on and hope it doesnt happen again. If it does, hopefully you'll have more information on the conditions and we'll be able to provide more feedback.

FYI, skidding isnt ok. Another one of those dont do or avoid categories.

The MSF recommendation still stands. If neither you or your sister has taken it, you should. I'm not saying that your brother taught you incorrectly, I'm just saying you'll probably still benefit from the class so there is no reason not to take it just to be safe.

k i can accept that. I knew it would happen, but I was just tired of "you're a noob, you dropped it cuz you didn't know what you were doing" kind of answers. I wouldn't have a problem admitting to something I did. the whole thing was just so weird.

I don't skid on purpose. (those damn metal bridges are scary!) I'm just saying I handle them better than I expected when things come popping out in front of me. We're talking about cars that run stop signs and red lights, parked cars that decides to pull out without looking just as I'm passing by, car that changes lanes without looking just as I'm passing by (this one I couldn't do anything but braked and lean left. I accepted my fate and closed my eyes when his car was already half way on my lane. he saw me last sec and swerved away. eyes were closed for a good 3 secs.)

friggin Jersey City

MSF is expensive. both cris n my sis took it I think, but they did the motorcycle course thing to get their license, and during Hurricane Irene... so I think the instructors just skipped through it. I'll be ok :D (I'm an organ donor. so my death will be put to good use) :D :D

rusninja
November 11th, 2011, 10:48 AM
Ah: if the turn was smooth, then that rules out my theory.

My second theory was that a very small alien ran up to the bike during the turn and stuck an unobtainium rod between the spokes in the front wheel :p

His tallywaker :eek:?

alex.s
November 11th, 2011, 10:55 AM
what if there was some bad gas in it and it stuttered for a second. if the rider really is new to riding that could easily begin to drop their turn... and not the best of experience might finish the job which could easily send the rider off to the front with the bike spinning clockwise on its right side

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 10:59 AM
what if there was some bad gas in it and it stuttered for a second. if the rider really is new to riding that could easily begin to drop their turn... and not the best of experience might finish the job which could easily send the rider off to the front with the bike spinning clockwise on its right side

I was holding the clutch through the turn (which apparently I shouldn't be doing) so I dont think this theory pans out neither. there was no stutter. it was smooth. bike didnt spin neither...

alex.s
November 11th, 2011, 11:09 AM
look dude no offense at all. i hate when people have to say this sort of thing but it sounds like you may have just been going faster than you thought and lost your rear in a turn because you didn't have any gas on to push the rear tire down. these things happen to a lot of people when they are learning how to ride, don't feel bad. (well you might want to feel bad about it being someone elses bike) a lot of people go through some denial after their first crash... intentionally forgetting one or two tiny little details that tie the entire story together. without those tiny details, instead of it being the riders fault, the rider can blame something else... the bike... some unseen condition... that beautiful girl that caught your eye... whatever it is it isn't your fault. i hit a big rock in the middle of a road with plenty of space on either side for my first crash. just accept what you've done and make it right. take motorcycling classes. read books. practice with your own bike.

also, riding a pedal bike is really nothing like riding a motorcycle... sliding to the side on a pedal bike is absolutely nothing like sliding to the side on a motorcycle

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 11:20 AM
look dude no offense at all. i hate when people have to say this sort of thing but it sounds like you may have just been going faster than you thought and lost your rear in a turn because you didn't have any gas on to push the rear tire down. these things happen to a lot of people when they are learning how to ride, don't feel bad. (well you might want to feel bad about it being someone elses bike) a lot of people go through some denial after their first crash... intentionally forgetting one or two tiny little details that tie the entire story together. without those tiny details, instead of it being the riders fault, the rider can blame something else... the bike... some unseen condition... that beautiful girl that caught your eye... whatever it is it isn't your fault. i hit a big rock in the middle of a road with plenty of space on either side for my first crash. just accept what you've done and make it right. take motorcycling classes. read books. practice with your own bike.

also, riding a pedal bike is really nothing like riding a motorcycle... sliding to the side on a pedal bike is absolutely nothing like sliding to the side on a motorcycle

im done. I came for insight. and a few ppl made some good replies.

you want to hate the fact that I'm denying whatever you say I'm denying... fine. I dont really care. I know what I did. I know how slow I was going. I know I didn't twist the throttle. I know I held the clutch the entire time until I flew off. I know I didn't slide. I know everything was smooth, with no stutter.

I've done a lot of crazy stuff on a bike, and fell off many times. On my friend's motorcycle... a motorcycle that's not mine... I took extra care not to do anything special or crazy. I didn't even want to take a turn while leaning so I took it slow and maintained an erect position.

your response may as well said "stfu. you were speeding through the turn and jumped off the bike cuz you got scared and now you have a fake story" you said to not take offense but you're calling me a liar. how do I not take offense? how about I say "no offense" and start talking about your mother.

I'm done. I won't be replying anymore.

alex.s
November 11th, 2011, 11:34 AM
noone is trying to be mean.

what you say you "know" conflicts with reality. thats all we are saying

setasai
November 11th, 2011, 11:39 AM
k i can accept that. I knew it would happen, but I was just tired of "you're a noob, you dropped it cuz you didn't know what you were doing" kind of answers. I wouldn't have a problem admitting to something I did. the whole thing was just so weird.

I don't skid on purpose. (those damn metal bridges are scary!) I'm just saying I handle them better than I expected when things come popping out in front of me. We're talking about cars that run stop signs and red lights, parked cars that decides to pull out without looking just as I'm passing by, car that changes lanes without looking just as I'm passing by (this one I couldn't do anything but braked and lean left. I accepted my fate and closed my eyes when his car was already half way on my lane. he saw me last sec and swerved away. eyes were closed for a good 3 secs.)

friggin Jersey City

MSF is expensive. both cris n my sis took it I think, but they did the motorcycle course thing to get their license, and during Hurricane Irene... so I think the instructors just skipped through it. I'll be ok :D (I'm an organ donor. so my death will be put to good use) :D :D

Fair enough. For those metal bridges, keep on the throttle, keep straight upright as possible, dont make any sudden steering movements at all until the rear tire makes it past the metal.

If you find yourself skidding, less rear brake and more front brake. Practice panic stops with the front brake until you get the hang of it without skidding. Skidding is one of those things that can turn bad REAL quick so practicing to avoid that is very important.

If you cant take the MSF, I highly recommend reading some motorcycling books. I forget the name but there are a few titles floating around that have a whole wealth of information that the MSF probably didnt even go over. You'll be able to help your brother and sister with their skills as well. Plus, it's cheap!

Statistically, intersections are #1 on the list of accidents occurring. Always scan the area for moving obstructions and when in doubt, slow down but keep the clutch engaged so you can give throttle in a split second. Lane position is also very important, be sure to keep yourself in a location that allows for the most room to swerve and avoid things. Never brake in a swerve... swerve first then brake or brake then swerve w/ throttle.

If you have any other questions, do a search and if nothing comes up go ahead and make a post. A forum is full of people, some helpful, some not so much, dont let that discourage you from posting because more than likely, you'll still learn something and that's all riding is about. Ride safe, ride happy, ride more!

Alex.s means well. He's just not a sugar coater type of responder.

sneak78
November 11th, 2011, 11:40 AM
you both have the same bike? Exchange fairing, mirrors, blinkers, what ever.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 01:23 PM
noone is trying to be mean.

what you say you "know" conflicts with reality. thats all we are saying

i didn't say you were being mean. I'm just saying... its so easy for everybody to point the finger and place blame on the rider. Yes I dropped the bike. I don't know why and I would like to know why so I don't do it again. Things turn out to be inconclusive. fine. I'm just very sensitive to the "it's your fault no matter what" treatment. When I first started driving... I was rear ended at least four times when I was waiting at a red light. Do you know how many ppl offer up reasons as to why it was my fault? everybody. don't even get me started on the story when I drove a car into a wall. I have an extra convenient excuse for that one too. It's going to sound too convenient that you won't believe me and still say it was my fault. (excuse is there was oil on the road, a lot of oil, or some slippery substance, and it rained RIGHT after the incident so I cant even have proof) so... is this another story I'm making up? Was that my fault too? Everybody seem to think so. So... you go ahead and hate ppl for having "excuses." I have a lot, and they're all true, except this one. I dont have one because I dont know why.

Fair enough. For those metal bridges, keep on the throttle, keep straight upright as possible, dont make any sudden steering movements at all until the rear tire makes it past the metal.

If you find yourself skidding, less rear brake and more front brake. Practice panic stops with the front brake until you get the hang of it without skidding. Skidding is one of those things that can turn bad REAL quick so practicing to avoid that is very important.

the bridge was my fault. I didn't remember to keep extra room in front of me in case the car in front of me decides to slam on his brakes.

this "less rear more front" is going to throw me off. I dont think I can control a sliding bike when all the braking is up front. I dont know how to handle that. I'm kinda afraid to practice that. and by practice.. I'm afraid of going 40 mph in a parking lot and hard braking. Swerving is easy. I'll swerve any chance I get. I only hard brake when I have no choice.

you both have the same bike? Exchange fairing, mirrors, blinkers, what ever.

sure... he can take whatever. like I said, not much damage... it's not like I'm swapping for broken parts.

he did rear end a car while driving my mustang once while driving through a monsoon!... I'm calling it even. broke my front bumper... :*-(

there was so much rain... I don't even want to say it was his fault.

akima
November 11th, 2011, 01:41 PM
None of us can say it's your fault as we weren't there. It does seem like rider error to me, but I can't say that conclusively. From looking down the posts, I can see why you're getting defensive. It looks a bit like 10 vs 1. We all love ya really though! How could we not love a Ninjette rider!

Based on the info you've given us, I don't think we can really provide many constructive comments. I guess it's for you and your friend to settle this now. ;)

Swerving is easy. I'll swerve any chance I get.

That's a useful skill!

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 01:45 PM
None of us can say it's your fault as we weren't there. It does seem like rider error to me, but I can't say that conclusively. From looking down the posts, I can see why you're getting defensive. It looks a bit like 10 vs 1. We all love ya really though! How could we not love a Ninjette rider!

Based on the info you've given us, I don't think we can really provide many constructive comments. I guess it's for you and your friend to settle this now. ;)



That's a useful skill!

I practice swerving as I ride. I look for a spot on the floor in front of me and swerve around it. At first, I was doing a horrible job. I just couldn't go around the spot on time... turns out, I was leaning with my body to swerve. Once I started leaning with my hips, I was dodging EVERYTHING!

This is all self taught... any errors in my ways?

setasai
November 11th, 2011, 02:02 PM
I practice swerving as I ride. I look for a spot on the floor in front of me and swerve around it. At first, I was doing a horrible job. I just couldn't go around the spot on time... turns out, I was leaning with my body to swerve. Once I started leaning with my hips, I was dodging EVERYTHING!

This is all self taught... any errors in my ways?

Look up countersteering. :) Thinking that swerving is done with your hips is wrong.

Learning to brake with the front is VERY important to being a safe rider. The front has majority of the braking power. Some say 60% some say 80% blah blah blah... but the concensus is the front brake is what you need for hard braking. If you keep braking hard with the rear and skid... you're increasing your chances of fishtailing out of control by a HUGE amount, not to mention the probability that you wont be able to stop before hitting something.

All of this is talked about in the MSF course and in the books on riding. Here are a few books that you should look into reading and owning.

http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321045225&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Basics-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021/ref=pd_sim_b_6

Also if your sister and/or brother took the msf course, read through their workbook and be very familiar with it.

akima
November 11th, 2011, 02:03 PM
I practice swerving as I ride. I look for a spot on the floor in front of me and swerve around it. At first, I was doing a horrible job. I just couldn't go around the spot on time... turns out, I was leaning with my body to swerve. Once I started leaning with my hips, I was dodging EVERYTHING!

This is all self taught... any errors in my ways?

Yep. One error. To turn the bike, you don't use your torso weight or movement (hips or leaning). You counter steer. Push the right bar forward and the bike will tilt to the right and turn the bike right. Push the left bar forward and the bike will tilt to the left and turn the bike left.

EsrTek
November 11th, 2011, 02:05 PM
I took extra care not to do anything special or crazy. I didn't even want to take a turn while leaning so I took it slow and maintained an erect position.

I think this sums up the X factor in the crash event.... Nerves!!! Combined with the clutch dis-engaged and throttle off is what caused it seemingly out of no where.

I can't advise on this, because I am guilty of it myself... I won't even ride someone else's bike, just because the whole time worrying about crashing, would probably end up making me crash.

Crriiissss
November 11th, 2011, 02:25 PM
wow did I miss a lot or what lol. I blame it all on mw3 lol. anyway..

Actually, thinking more about this situation. If I were you I would have insisted that my GF be the rider as opposed to her brother. At least this way she'll OWE you... :) and that could always be fun... can anyone say brinner? yummmmm

I didn't mind my gf riding it at all, she just felt it was in safer hands with john on it. lmao brinneeer

Somebody needs to take the MSF class. They will teach you how to roll on to the throttle in a turn. Never have the clutch in on a turn. Never. That's silly. Same with a car but I am guessing you don't drive a manual or you would know this already. I am glad there is little damage and you learned a lesson. It happens. Take the MSF course!!!! You seem like a perfect candidate for it. :thumbup:

Yeah John! for the hundredth time lol

Ill buy u dinner :-) minados?

tonight! lol

you both have the same bike? Exchange fairing, mirrors, blinkers, what ever.

the damages (from a quick inspection) is the scratch on the muffler and a couple of scratches here and there so no need to trade parts..plus I love my blue ninja :thumbup:

MSF is expensive. both cris n my sis took it I think, but they did the motorcycle course thing to get their license, and during Hurricane Irene... so I think the instructors just skipped through it.

definitely was twice as expensive for me lol but was also worth every penny. instructors didn't skip through anything, it was just accelerated.

Yep. One error. To turn the bike, you don't use your torso weight or movement (hips or leaning). You counter steer. Push the right bar forward and the bike will tilt to the right and turn the bike right. Push the left bar forward and the bike will tilt to the left and turn the bike left.

I think he knows that..if not..another reason he should have taken MSF!

Anyway I'll be looking over my bike a lot more tomorrow before I go out for a ride and check if there's anything out of the ordinary. Hopefully it was just a one time incident that didn't involve any internal damages to my bike.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 02:41 PM
I think this sums up the X factor in the crash event.... Nerves!!! Combined with the clutch dis-engaged and throttle off is what caused it seemingly out of no where.

I can't advise on this, because I am guilty of it myself... I won't even ride someone else's bike, just because the whole time worrying about crashing, would probably end up making me crash.

so you're saying I let go of the clutch and flew off the bike because I wasn't using the throttle? If I let go then that means the bike should have choked and the engine should not be running. The bike was still running before I picked it off the ground.

@Criss: I'm going to the movies tonight with my gf. wanna go ride right now while I wait for her? text me. I'm going back to the crime scene to see wth happened.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 03:45 PM
I'm back with new info!

that was only a 10 min ride, and 3 cars ran a redlight, one nearly took me out. that b1tch swerved to the right and went to the street parking area to avoid hitting me. the other two fumb ducks will being getting their tickets in the mail. the traffic cam def. caught both of them.

so I went back and did practiced counter steering. The response was much faster but I'm not gaining much horizontal movement. I'm moving maybe only 1 or 1.5 feet to the right or left only. If I drop my hips like I said... I can easily move 3 feet to the right or left instantly. should I practice more?

and the turning and accelerating... wtf? I'm not getting it. I'm entering the turn at the perfect speed. If I lean... I turn exactly where I want to go. If I need more speed, I simply accelerate. I did what you guys said.... I enter the turn... accelerate VERY little through the entire turn... I'm crossing the double solid lines now since I'm obviously going to fast. I need this reexplained.

So here is what happened and why I fell.

I stood there for a good 5 mins staring at the road... Trying to analyze it. Then I tilt my head a little and noticed there was a mirage effect going on. If you look at it from the top down, it looks like a perfectly normal road. If you lower yourself, you can see that after years of use, the road is depressed from the wheels of millions of cars driving over it daily. I would say that was it was depressed on both sides by a maximum of 1 inch. As I turned about 15 degrees, the front wheel probably followed the depression, causing the wheel to twist at a 45 degree angle, bike stopped, I flew, bike fell.

of course.. I did what I did on Cris's bike twice today on my bike... and nothing happened... but I do have brand spanking new tires...

akima
November 11th, 2011, 04:12 PM
I'm back with new info!

that was only a 10 min ride, and 3 cars ran a redlight, one nearly took me out. that b1tch swerved to the right and went to the street parking area to avoid hitting me. the other two fumb ducks will being getting their tickets in the mail. the traffic cam def. caught both of them.

so I went back and did practiced counter steering. The response was much faster but I'm not gaining much horizontal movement. I'm moving maybe only 1 or 1.5 feet to the right or left only. If I drop my hips like I said... I can easily move 3 feet to the right or left instantly. should I practice more?

and the turning and accelerating... wtf? I'm not getting it. I'm entering the turn at the perfect speed. If I lean... I turn exactly where I want to go. If I need more speed, I simply accelerate. I did what you guys said.... I enter the turn... accelerate VERY little through the entire turn... I'm crossing the double solid lines now since I'm obviously going to fast. I need this reexplained.

So here is what happened and why I fell.

I stood there for a good 5 mins staring at the road... Trying to analyze it. Then I tilt my head a little and noticed there was a mirage effect going on. If you look at it from the top down, it looks like a perfectly normal road. If you lower yourself, you can see that after years of use, the road is depressed from the wheels of millions of cars driving over it daily. I would say that was it was depressed on both sides by a maximum of 1 inch. As I turned about 15 degrees, the front wheel probably followed the depression, causing the wheel to twist at a 45 degree angle, bike stopped, I flew, bike fell.

of course.. I did what I did on Cris's bike twice today on my bike... and nothing happened... but I do have brand spanking new tires...

I say this with only love and cuddles :D... but... you've got a lot to learn! That's not a bad thing. I was where you were when I first started riding. Not that long ago.

Ok, so brand spanking new tires... that's not a good thing!! Brand new tires are not grippy. It takes a while for them to become grippy. I suspect this guy didn't know about the nature of new tires:
Q9zNUPDmnz4
(brand new bike!)

As for the shifting your hips thing: I'm imagining you moving side to side on your seat (like you see moto gp racers doing). I'm sure that will be a great thing to learn further down the line for high speed cornering, but for a new rider (like you and me), it's not necessary for our daily city riding and certainly isn't necessary for slow speed riding. Counter steering is the universally hailed method of quickly turning a bike. I really can't imagine that moving your weight side to side is quicker than counter steering. If you apply a small amount of force to the handle bar it will full-on drop the bike over to the side: it's a great feeling when you get confident with it. Learn how to do it confidently and it'll become the only way you decide to steer the bike (except maybe for very slow speed riding... like 5 mph... at that speed you'd might use your weight and steer the motorcycle like a bicycle)

Glad you figured out what likely caused your accident. Seems kinda odd to me that you went back to that same spot trying to recreate the accident with your own bike :p

:hug:

setasai
November 11th, 2011, 04:13 PM
I'm back with new info!

that was only a 10 min ride, and 3 cars ran a redlight, one nearly took me out. that b1tch swerved to the right and went to the street parking area to avoid hitting me. the other two fumb ducks will being getting their tickets in the mail. the traffic cam def. caught both of them.

Yikes, careful. Like I said, Intersections are a biker's worst nightmare. Keep eyes peeled and expect crazy!

so I went back and did practiced counter steering. The response was much faster but I'm not gaining much horizontal movement. I'm moving maybe only 1 or 1.5 feet to the right or left only. If I drop my hips like I said... I can easily move 3 feet to the right or left instantly. should I practice more?


Yes practice more but when you countersteer, dont fight it. Also shift your weight with it. When countersteering, push more on the bars and the bike will lean more and turn sharper/faster. Keep practicing, you're doing the right thing by trying stuff out in a controlled environment.

and the turning and accelerating... wtf? I'm not getting it. I'm entering the turn at the perfect speed. If I lean... I turn exactly where I want to go. If I need more speed, I simply accelerate. I did what you guys said.... I enter the turn... accelerate VERY little through the entire turn... I'm crossing the double solid lines now since I'm obviously going to fast. I need this reexplained.


Enter the turn slower than what you would call "perfect" speed. You want to lean, shift your weight to the inside of the turn, and countersteer to allow for a nice smooth curve all while giving more throttle and accelerate out of the turn. If you accelerate and you end up crossing the double solid lines, you either need to lessen your entrance speed or more countersteering or both. Most likely both. Keep practicing! Oh and dont forget to look through the turn, not infront of the bike.

I stood there for a good 5 mins staring at the road... Trying to analyze it. Then I tilt my head a little and noticed there was a mirage effect going on. If you look at it from the top down, it looks like a perfectly normal road. If you lower yourself, you can see that after years of use, the road is depressed from the wheels of millions of cars driving over it daily. I would say that was it was depressed on both sides by a maximum of 1 inch. As I turned about 15 degrees, the front wheel probably followed the depression, causing the wheel to twist at a 45 degree angle, bike stopped, I flew, bike fell.

Good for you. It is sometimes very hard to return to the scene of an accident and re-evaluate the conditions. That dip in the road is what we call a sinkhole and in the middle of a turn it can definitely be very dangerous. Had you been on the throttle and accelerated out of the turn, the outcome may be different because the weight will be distributed towards the rear and the dip's effect on the front tire is lessened.

It's like riding over a branch or 2x4, too slow and no throttle you just enough force to stop the bike and throw you over but with some acceleration/throttle, the front wheel is lighter and will just lift right over.

EsrTek
November 11th, 2011, 04:17 PM
so you're saying I let go of the clutch and flew off the bike because I wasn't using the throttle? If I let go then that means the bike should have choked and the engine should not be running. The bike was still running before I picked it off the ground.\

I'm saying all those combined things caused the accident (nervous+slow speed+clutch dis-engaged (meaning pulled in) and not applying gas (throttle off)=crash.

I didn't say or insinuate in any way shape or form that you let the clutch out :thumbup: You seem to be taking people's replies defensively :(

When I crashed mine pre-gen, in 3rd gear and high sided, the thing was running on it's side. It took me a good 30 secs to get up and hit the kills switch, about 10mins later it seemed to run fine, minus the broke shift lever. So sounds pretty normal to me.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 04:22 PM
I say this with only love and cuddles :D... but... you've got a lot to learn! That's not a bad thing. I was where you were when I first started riding. Not that long ago.

Ok, so brand spanking new tires... that's not a good thing!! Brand new tires are not grippy. It takes a while for them to become grippy.

As for the shifting your hips thing: I'm imagining you moving side to side on your seat (like you see moto gp racers doing). I'm sure that will be a great thing to learn further down the line for high speed cornering, but for a new rider (like you and me), it's not necessary for our daily city riding and certainly isn't necessary for slow speed riding. Counter steering is the universally hailed method of quickly turning a bike. I really can't imagine that moving your weight side to side is quicker than counter steering. If you apply a small amount of force to the handle bar it will full-on drop the bike over to the side: it's a great feeling when you get confident with it.

Glad you figured out what likely caused your accident. Seems kinda odd to me that you went back to that same spot trying to recreate the accident with your own bike :p

:hug:

well I wouldn't drop my hips at low speed... I was talking high way to avoid a car that jumps into your lane. I said the counter steering was much more responsive, but I was able to shift from left to right over a larger distance with the hips. I wasn't going anywhere with the counter steering, I was moving quickly... but not far. I'll work on that.

Everybody kept saying I made a noobie mistake.. today would be the third time I drove over it and I didn't see a single thing until looked closely while I was off the bike. This was unavoidable in my book. I was simply at the wrong angle at the wrong speed. I'm not sure if accelerating through the turn would have made it worse or not.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 04:28 PM
\

I'm saying all those combined things caused the accident (nervous+slow speed+clutch dis-engaged (meaning pulled in) and not applying gas (throttle off)=crash.

I didn't say or insinuate in any way shape or form that you let the clutch out :thumbup: You seem to be taking people's replies defensively :(

When I crashed mine pre-gen, in 3rd gear and high sided, the thing was running on it's side. It took me a good 30 secs to get up and hit the kills switch, about 10mins later it seemed to run fine, minus the broke shift lever. So sounds pretty normal to me.

1. I was not nervous. I won't deny the other things. I'm actually VERY confident in my riding abilities. I only do what I know I can do
2. I didn't reply defensively to you. I did to other ppl so my tone must have transferred over. I repeated back what you wrote because I was sure I didn't understand what you said. now I know dis-engaged = pulled in
3. hmmm so that is normal... why is that? I'm assuming that since the wheel is off the ground, there's nothing pushing back... so it's like riding the clutch...?

akima
November 11th, 2011, 04:30 PM
Enter the turn slower than what you would call "perfect" speed. You want to lean, shift your weight to the inside of the turn, and countersteer to allow for a nice smooth curve all while giving more throttle and accelerate out of the turn. If you accelerate and you end up crossing the double solid lines, you either need to lessen your entrance speed or more countersteering or both. Most likely both. Keep practicing! Oh and dont forget to look through the turn, not infront of the bike.


Oh yeah. When I was saying about not shifting your weight to turn I was talking about not using your weight to turn the bike. Obviously, you want to lean in the direction of the turn, not deliberately fight it and hold your weight away from the turn.

I'm not sure if accelerating through the turn would have made it worse or not.

When you're accelerating through the turn, I read that this causes the weight to be shifted to the rear wheel (you've seen people's rear suspension compress when they accelerate right?). Well, accelerating through the turn might have helped (as Alex pointed out a while back), because the front wheel wouldn't have been loaded with so much weight. I think one benefit of having a light front wheel is that if the front wheel does hit something that causes it to jolt left or right, the bike isn't so violently affected... the wheel (not having much weight on it) can more freely move where it wants to move and then restore itself to its natural position.

(more experienced people reading this... am I making sense and understanding this properly?)

setasai
November 11th, 2011, 04:34 PM
(more experienced people reading this... am I making sense and understanding this properly?)

Yup! For those skeptical... ride over a 2x4 around 10-15mph and try 1) coasting with clutch disengaged, 2) clutch engaged no throttle, and 3) a jolt of throttle right before the 2x4. You'll see that weight distribution makes a huge difference.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 04:38 PM
Oh yeah. When I was saying about not shifting your weight to turn I was talking about not using your weight to turn the bike. Obviously, you want to lean in the direction of the turn, not deliberately fight it and hold your weight away from the turn.



When you're accelerating through the turn, I read that this causes the weight to be shifted to the rear wheel (you've seen people's rear suspension compress when they accelerate right?). Well, accelerating through the turn might have helped (as Alex pointed out a while back), because the front wheel wouldn't have been loaded with so much weight. I think one benefit of having a light front wheel is that if the front wheel does hit something that causes it to jolt left or right, the bike isn't so violently affected... the wheel (not having much weight on it) can more freely move where it wants to move and then restore itself to its natural position.

(more experienced people reading this... am I making sense and understanding this properly?)

1. obviously...

2. If I'm accelerating through the turn and my front wheel goes into the sink hole and curve hard right AS IM TURNING... you really think the light front will just go over and not go with the turn? yes more experienced riders... chime in.

3. side question: I'm riding really fast and I didn't see the 50 potholes in front of me that is UNAVOIDABLE to dodge. Switching lanes is not an option atm. I'm going 65mph. What I do is squeeze the clutch, stand up to let my legs absorb the boucing motion... and hold the steering wheel tight to not let it turn too far, but let it turn as needed. anything wrong with this? my brother said he accelerated out of this before and was fine. he told me I shouldn't do that but ride it through... I rode it through and got a FAT dent on my rim. ugh. A-hole driver to my left wouldn't let me switch lane. I went to the left and he accelerated up to block me. slowing down and going behind him was too tricky since it was dark and I'm sure I would have just went into the car behind him if I tried.

akima
November 11th, 2011, 04:49 PM
3. side question: I'm riding really fast and I didn't see the 50 potholes in front of me that is UNAVOIDABLE to dodge. Switching lanes is not an option atm. I'm going 65mph. What I do is squeeze the clutch, stand up to let my legs absorb the boucing motion... and hold the steering wheel tight to not let it turn too far, but let it turn as needed. anything wrong with this? my brother said he accelerated out of this before and was fine. he told me I shouldn't do that but ride it through... I rode it through and got a FAT dent on my rim. ugh.

Everything I've read has suggested that if you don't have time to break for or go around something in the road (like a piece of wood), then you have no choice but to go over it and the best way to do that is:
* accelerate as you go over the obstacle. The acceleration is to keep the back wheel loaded with weight and the front wheel light. This way it's easier for the front wheel to go up and over the obstacle.
* stay light on the bars. Don't hold them stiff. This way the front wheel can move as it needs to over the obstacle without the whole bike being violently shaken. The front wheel should then naturally come back to it's central position when it's done all it's moving.

As for whether you should stand up or sit down during it... idk. My gut instinct says to stay seated so you can use your legs to get a good grip on the bike as the bike is jolted around.

jd254
November 11th, 2011, 04:51 PM
Everything I've read has suggested that if you don't have time to break for or go around something in the road (like a piece of wood), then you have no choice but to go over it and the best way to do that is:
* accelerate as you go over the obstacle. The acceleration is to keep the back wheel loaded with weight and the front wheel light. This way it's easier for the front wheel to go up and over the obstacle.
* stay light on the bars. Don't hold them stiff. This way the front wheel can move as it needs to over the obstacle without the whole bike being violently shaken. The front wheel should then naturally come back to it's central position when it's done all it's moving.

As for whether you should stand up or sit down during it... idk.

these were serious potholes... you're actually advising me to accelerate through them... ugh... THIS makes me nervous... not taking Cris's bike around the city at 20 mph.?
If you're sitting, you bounce... I bounced a whole foot off the bike before... I always stand now when I'm on Route 78... I know where all the bumps are.

akima
November 11th, 2011, 05:10 PM
these were serious potholes... you're actually advising me to accelerate through them... ugh... THIS makes me nervous... not taking Cris's bike around the city at 20 mph.?


Well... take everything I say (and anyone here says) with a pinch of salt. You've got to make up your own mind what's best. I try and base my decisions on the words of experienced riders and the general consensus among them. I also try and experiment and decide what works best by myself. Another thing I do is try to understand motorcycle physics (not on a nerdy level); motorcycles aren't magical unicorns. They behave the way they do for very specific reasons. It's pretty hard figuring out those reasons. For instance, with counter-steering, I'm certain it works, but I can't quite figure out why it works?! I know that turning the bars to the left causes the bike to tip to the right. That makes perfect sense to me. What I can't picture in my mind is why the bike actually turns to the right!

But yes: if I saw a pot hole and didn't have time to avoid it then I personally would accelerate through it to keep the rear wheel loaded. By "accelerate", I don't mean pin the throttle wide open. Just smoothly apply a small amount of acceleration: just enough that if someone was watching my bike, they'd see the rear shock compress and the front shock expand.


If you're sitting, you bounce... I bounced a whole foot off the bike before... I always stand now when I'm on Route 78... I know where all the bumps are.


Well: I'm not so sure about the sitting or standing thing. I'd love to hear what other riders here had to say about that.

Anyway. It's past midnight here, so I need to sleep! Night night! :sleep:

scottsa
November 11th, 2011, 05:53 PM
I hardly post and I'm still very new myself but in my MSF, and in the reading I have done, everything recommends standing on the pegs when going over obstacles, obviously this doesn't mean standing straight up with knees locked. This allows your legs to act as shock absorbers for your body mass which means your body mass is having less of an affect on the handling of the bike.

Waits patiently for one of the vets to correct me! :D

TenaciousD
November 11th, 2011, 09:41 PM
Sounds like you're getting some good advice but perhaps it's a bit confusing with all the different viewpoints coming at you. Simply taking the MSF class would clear up 99% of your problems at this point. You're learning bad habits and will continue to have scary moments unless you get yourself on the right path. You might even get hurt.

setasai
November 12th, 2011, 12:30 AM
1. obviously...

2. If I'm accelerating through the turn and my front wheel goes into the sink hole and curve hard right AS IM TURNING... you really think the light front will just go over and not go with the turn? yes more experienced riders... chime in.

As I said earlier... yes accelerate in and out of a turn. You seriously need to stop fighting on this. It is how it's done and if you dont feel comfortable doing it then go spend the money and take the class so that they can watch you and make sure you're doing it right.

3. side question: I'm riding really fast and I didn't see the 50 potholes in front of me that is UNAVOIDABLE to dodge. Switching lanes is not an option atm. I'm going 65mph. What I do is squeeze the clutch, stand up to let my legs absorb the boucing motion... and hold the steering wheel tight to not let it turn too far, but let it turn as needed. anything wrong with this? my brother said he accelerated out of this before and was fine. he told me I shouldn't do that but ride it through... I rode it through and got a FAT dent on my rim. ugh. A-hole driver to my left wouldn't let me switch lane. I went to the left and he accelerated up to block me. slowing down and going behind him was too tricky since it was dark and I'm sure I would have just went into the car behind him if I tried.

Dear god slowwwwwww down!!! Leave more space so you can see what's coming in front of you. If there a many potholes coming up and you didnt see it till you hit the first one... why did you continue at that speed? Slow down, leave time to avoid the others and use countersteering to force the bike to swerve sharply and quickly around as many as you can.

The fact that someone was next to you and you couldnt switch lanes means you arent paying attention to your surroundings. Always leave a way out. It is imperative in both a cager and on a motorcycle that you do this. You never know what's going to happen... Oh and before I forget... calm down and control that road rage... it leads to bad decisions and more risk taking.

If you must go through them, STOP PULLING IN ON THE CLUTCH!!!!! You dont need to accelerate but maintain speed or even slow down and then maintain speed. As for standing up on the pegs, sure you can do that just dont stand straight up... lift your body off the seat slightly and use your knees to absorb the shock.

You keep asking the same questions over and over. If you want me to stop responding and wait for a "more experienced" rider to respond... do let me know but I will say this again... MSF COURSE!!! and/or READ THOSE BOOKS!

Just trying to help. :thumbup:

jd254
November 13th, 2011, 04:20 PM
As I said earlier... yes accelerate in and out of a turn. You seriously need to stop fighting on this. It is how it's done and if you dont feel comfortable doing it then go spend the money and take the class so that they can watch you and make sure you're doing it right.



Dear god slowwwwwww down!!! Leave more space so you can see what's coming in front of you. If there a many potholes coming up and you didnt see it till you hit the first one... why did you continue at that speed? Slow down, leave time to avoid the others and use countersteering to force the bike to swerve sharply and quickly around as many as you can.

The fact that someone was next to you and you couldnt switch lanes means you arent paying attention to your surroundings. Always leave a way out. It is imperative in both a cager and on a motorcycle that you do this. You never know what's going to happen... Oh and before I forget... calm down and control that road rage... it leads to bad decisions and more risk taking.

If you must go through them, STOP PULLING IN ON THE CLUTCH!!!!! You dont need to accelerate but maintain speed or even slow down and then maintain speed. As for standing up on the pegs, sure you can do that just dont stand straight up... lift your body off the seat slightly and use your knees to absorb the shock.

You keep asking the same questions over and over. If you want me to stop responding and wait for a "more experienced" rider to respond... do let me know but I will say this again... MSF COURSE!!! and/or READ THOSE BOOKS!

Just trying to help. :thumbup:

...It was a 65mph zone.. and everybody is going 80 to 90mph... And it wasn't like I waited until the first pothole. I had a good 10 seconds to respond to the up coming potholes. We aren't talking about various potholes up ahead... these are "unavoidable" potholes where the entire lane is covered with it. there WAS a way out, and he didn't want to let me pass. I told you. I switched and HE sped up to block me. You have to understand there are aholes who doesn't like bikers. I slow down to go behind him but it was too dark to judge the distance of the car behind him, so I went back and took the potholes on.

This forum sucks. people are just here to tell you what a bad rider you are. I clearly stated it was unavoidable. "always leave a way out"??? go die. When there's stupid drivers... you don't get this option.

ok, I got it. dont pull the clutch. I was merely asking if the rule apply to potholes... since were not talking about riding over anything. potholes comes in all sizes, and if the pot hole is deep enough... pulling the clutch might be the best option.

scottsa
November 13th, 2011, 05:54 PM
Pulling the clutch would never be the best option for potholes that I can see. Pulling the clutch is going to transfer weight forward as nothing is driving the rear wheel, more weight on the front is going to cause the front to sink deeper into the hole and make it harder for the front to come up out of the hole. I will stay out of the entire unavoidable arguement. :)

ForceofWill
November 13th, 2011, 06:22 PM
Pulling the clutch would never be the best option for potholes that I can see. Pulling the clutch is going to transfer weight forward as nothing is driving the rear wheel, more weight on the front is going to cause the front to sink deeper into the hole and make it harder for the front to come up out of the hole. I will stay out of the entire unavoidable arguement. :)

Agreed, weighting the front end is not going to help that situation, just gonna upset the bike more.

Buy and read, "Proficient Motorcycling." Every topic and situation you've mentioned is answered in that book. I bought Twist of the Wrist II also, and for a new rider, "Proficient Motorcycling," was much more informative. I actually didn't find much in Keith Code's book that wasn't covered better by it. It goes over everything from counter steering to riding in dirt/snow/ice.

setasai
November 13th, 2011, 06:42 PM
This forum sucks. people are just here to tell you what a bad rider you are. I clearly stated it was unavoidable. "always leave a way out"??? go die. When there's stupid drivers... you don't get this option.

pulling the clutch might be the best option.

Why do you insist that pulling the clutch is the best option? It never is but if you insist then fine.

Unavoidable... ok then do what I said after that... go through it and give it a little throttle but slow down and if you can swerve, do it... if you cant, then go over it.

Geebus not everybody is a bad rider but you're obviously making bad riding choices. If you prefer we dont warn you about your errors then dont ask. If you ask then expect the truth as bluntly as possible. We arent your parents. There is no reason to sugar coat anything BUT count on us to tell you straight up when you're doing something wrong.

This forum is full of information but your attitude is like going to a WindowsPC forum and insisting that sometimes deleting critical system files is the right decision. Everybody there will bluntly tell you NO ITS NOT!

I've been trying to be as helpful as possible by being detailed and straight forward. I'm sorry if you're offended or angry at the responses. How else would you have us word it? "Clutch pull bad?" FYI, We recommend ALL riders take the MSF and read as much material as possible.

Jay72
November 13th, 2011, 07:22 PM
...It was a 65mph zone.. and everybody is going 80 to 90mph... And it wasn't like I waited until the first pothole. I had a good 10 seconds to respond to the up coming potholes. We aren't talking about various potholes up ahead... these are "unavoidable" potholes where the entire lane is covered with it. there WAS a way out, and he didn't want to let me pass. I told you. I switched and HE sped up to block me. You have to understand there are aholes who doesn't like bikers. I slow down to go behind him but it was too dark to judge the distance of the car behind him, so I went back and took the potholes on.

This forum sucks. people are just here to tell you what a bad rider you are. I clearly stated it was unavoidable. "always leave a way out"??? go die. When there's stupid drivers... you don't get this option.

ok, I got it. dont pull the clutch. I was merely asking if the rule apply to potholes... since were not talking about riding over anything. potholes comes in all sizes, and if the pot hole is deep enough... pulling the clutch might be the best option.

After reading this for the last few days I have come to the conclusion that you are a bull headed moron!!! For crying out loud dude, saying this forum sucks!!!! People have been trying to help you from your very first post but it doesn't matter what they say, you have a come back or complaint. You say you are confident in your riding skills, well here is some constructive criticism, learn a lot more and listen to what people are telling you. It is pretty clear to me you are young. You need to take your head out of your a$$ and listen. Your skills are not very good at all if you thought is was good practice to pull your clutch in going around a corner (as you said you do often) and over pot holes. Open up, stop being stubborn and enjoy riding before you die!!

akima
November 14th, 2011, 03:36 AM
Agreed, weighting the front end is not going to help that situation, just gonna upset the bike more.

Buy and read, "Proficient Motorcycling." Every topic and situation you've mentioned is answered in that book. I bought Twist of the Wrist II also, and for a new rider, "Proficient Motorcycling," was much more informative. I actually didn't find much in Keith Code's book that wasn't covered better by it. It goes over everything from counter steering to riding in dirt/snow/ice.

So far I've been studying Keith Code's book. I just looked up "Proficient Motorcycling". I'll give it a read. Is it authored by David Hough?

gfloyd2002
November 14th, 2011, 03:52 AM
So far I've been studying Keith Code's book. I just looked up "Proficient Motorcycling". I'll give it a read. Is it authored by David Hough?

Yup, Hough. Best book out there for street riding, imho. He also has a follow up called "More Proficient Motorcycling" that is equally good. Available on Kindle, too. :thumbup: Apropos to this thread, Hough's main theme is that the rider can nearly always avoid, and must always take responsibility for, an accident.

akima
November 14th, 2011, 04:05 AM
Yup, Hough. Best book out there for street riding, imho. He also has a follow up called "More Proficient Motorcycling" that is equally good. Available on Kindle, too. :thumbup: Apropos to this thread, Hough's main theme is that the rider can nearly always avoid, and must always take responsibility for, an accident.

Excellent. Definitely going to give it a read now. Your recommendations have value to me. ;)

I like the philosophy of "the rider can nearly always avoid, and must always take responsibility for, an accident". It makes me feel empowered: like the outcome of any given riding situation rests with me, not with chance, the environment or other people who are beyond my control.

I also want to get as much good riding technique crammed into my head as I can, while I'm still a noobie. Easier to learn it right, now, than to correct bad habits later.

There are lots of advanced rider courses available in the UK. As soon as I have the money I want to go on some of them. I imagine there are things that experienced riders can spot which I can't spot from reading books.

jd254
November 14th, 2011, 06:00 AM
This is like talking to me ex.. jeebus.

1. Yes... pulling clutch is bad. confirmed. Got it. Not sure if I can make it clearer that I got it. I already said I got it before, yet ppl are still reading "no... its best to pull th clutch" which leads me to point 2
2. Thank you forum for all your informative response. I didn't show apreciation for this but only insulted the poor response. The reason I find some response poor is because you all assume I'm doing something stupid without reading what I wrote. Yes I asked if pulling the clutch rule applies to potholes too. U continued to respond to that by saying "yes, stop asking the same questions and drive better! Slow down. It was avoidable" all of that was so unecessary. Sugarcoating is not needed for something that wasn't even required in the first place. My feelings weren't hurt. I just find that some people have this idea that I don't know what I'm doing at all because I'm asking questions about things I don't know. Kinda obvious that I should know to always look ahead. How did u think I saw those potholes?

Explaining myself in full detail like this makes forums as awesome as this ineffective. So I only like to ask straight to the point questions... but that doesn't always work which leads me back to my first sentence.

Thank you guys.... if I find a pdf version, would any mod or admin mind if i post it here?

Alex
November 14th, 2011, 06:43 AM
if I find a pdf version, would any mod or admin mind if i post it here?

A PDF version of what?

From our TOS (http://tos.ninjette.org):

2.12. Members should not post copyrighted materials without permission of author or photographer as applicable.

jd254
November 14th, 2011, 09:41 AM
A PDF version of what?

From our TOS (http://tos.ninjette.org):

I was just going to offer pdf versions of whatever books that were recommended to me. guess not.

just wanted to give back :D

jd254
November 14th, 2011, 09:58 AM
Hough's main theme is that the rider can nearly always avoid, and must always take responsibility for, an accident.

I also like this philosophy also. My parents tried to teach me this with "I don't care if it was your fault or not. If you weren't out there driving so much, this never would have happened"

After multiple rear ends which was out of my control... I've decided to put it back in my control. I now stop with a lot of room in front of me and I'm constantly looking at my rear view mirror and being ready to drive away from another rear end helps (literally saved my butt at least twice in the last 3 years)

Also... all my accidents happens when I'm driving at low speed (under 20mph) so now I always carefully speed pass cars until I'm driving by myself on the road. I know some of you will call me reckless and a noob, but part of driving safely is to not drive near dangerous conditions, and driving near other drivers is literally dangerous.

A third rule I always abide by is to not drive relaxed (obviously). People always running me off the road. I just don't understand why they can't just open their eyes... look left and see my CAR before switching lanes. I mean...

I'm an accident magnet btw. I'm dodging cars left and right at least twice a week and it's never when I'm speeding.

following my rules (only 3 listed here)... I've been accident free for the last 4 years. :thumbup:

I'm still learning with the bike so.. I guess this first drop was an easy learning experience. So different from a car... need to make up some new rules.

onetruevibe
November 14th, 2011, 10:34 AM
It's pretty hard figuring out those reasons. For instance, with counter-steering, I'm certain it works, but I can't quite figure out why it works?! I know that turning the bars to the left causes the bike to tip to the right. That makes perfect sense to me. What I can't picture in my mind is why the bike actually turns to the right!



Chapter 2 of "Proficient Motorcycling." :thumbup:

I had to read it a couple of times for it to stick...but it's all in there! ;)

Stay curious and keep learning!

gfloyd2002
November 14th, 2011, 10:43 AM
Awesome attitude, JD. :thumbup:

I ride my bike like every car out there is out to get me. Main difference from driving the car is that I'm always thinking about road conditions/traction and always watching for people to pull out in front of me from a side road. It is amazing how often cars don't see you when you are on a motorcycle.

Because of traction and visibility concerns, I find that the best technique is to never overdrive my stopping distance. If there is a potential obstacle, like a car that might pull out or a potential change in road surface, I'll keep my speed down so I can scrub it in a worst case scenario. Usually about 30mph works when you spot a possible problem like an uncertain surface or a car waiting to pull out - easy to quickly get to zero from there, and its amazing how much additional stopping distance you need at going 40, 50 and above.

Off topic a bit, but I've found that looking at the front wheel of cars waiting to pull out is a great technique. You can see the movement of that front wheel with the slightest creep out towards an intersection, and you can pick up movement better than if you are looking at the whole car, or the hood or bumper. Saved my bacon a few times -- you see that wheel start to turn and you know the car may pull out, so you get down to 30 mph or below immediately and cover the brake and clutch. More than once, I'd had a car pull out, oblivious that I was there, and I was able to avoid any drama. Totally would have been his fault if he'd pulled out with me coming and nailed me, but good example of how we can still control our own destiny and avoid other people's mistakes. :)

setasai
November 14th, 2011, 10:51 AM
Available on Kindle, too. :thumbup:

But the kindle version doesnt have all the pretty pictures in COLOR! :(


ok, I got it. dont pull the clutch. I was merely asking if the rule apply to potholes... since were not talking about riding over anything. potholes comes in all sizes, and if the pot hole is deep enough... pulling the clutch might be the best option.

I told you AGAIN because in your post you said this^^. That let me to believe that you still did not understand what I was saying. So, I repeated myself.

As for the other things... I am not you, the actual rider. I will state everything that I think needs to be done. If you are doing it and think you are doing it well then I say "kudos". If for any reason you think I might be right and you can do better then I hope you see that and do better. All I am trying to do is say everything and anything that can do to help you in another similar situation but I wasnt there... nobody here was... only YOU and only you alone.

Good job on your rules! Be careful and ride safe. Might I start your riding rulebook with ATGATT, ride happy, and no alcohol for the day if you're riding.

jd254
November 14th, 2011, 11:00 AM
Awesome attitude, JD. :thumbup:

I ride my bike like every car out there is out to get me. Main difference from driving the car is that I'm always thinking about road conditions/traction and always watching for people to pull out in front of me from a side road. It is amazing how often cars don't see you when you are on a motorcycle.

one thing that isn't burned into my brain yet are the parked cars... I never look out for parked cars that may be pulling out without looking. I think I need a few more near miss before it becomes a natural reflex to be ready for it.

the first one was the scariest. The dumb b1tch with her kid in the back didn't look as she pulled out, and not only that, she decides to make a u turn from a parking space. If she did it slowly... I wouldn't have too much of a problem but that lady just floored it. I think this was my first skid. (hehe I skidded it like how I do on a bicycle. hmmm what did the other forum members say... I have to apply more front and less back in this scenario?)

jd254
November 14th, 2011, 11:06 AM
Good job on your rules! Be careful and ride safe. Might I start your riding rulebook with ATGATT, ride happy, and no alcohol for the day if you're riding.

man I hate it when you guys give me good advices that will cost me money... ugh. ATGATT will be next year after I finish college this semester and get myself a FT position.

I got a helmet. I wear jeans and boots. What should my next gear be?

how can you NOT be happy when you ride?

I don't drink :D

akima
November 14th, 2011, 11:07 AM
I also like this philosophy also. My parents tried to teach me this with "I don't care if it was your fault or not. If you weren't out there driving so much, this never would have happened"

After multiple rear ends which was out of my control... I've decided to put it back in my control. I now stop with a lot of room in front of me and I'm constantly looking at my rear view mirror and being ready to drive away from another rear end helps (literally saved my butt at least twice in the last 3 years)


I can't be sure but it sounds a bit like your parents hadn't quite grasped the difference between risk and blame.

The difference between risk and blame can be hard to understand. I differentiate them in my mind like this: if I do not perform a mirror check when I come to a stop at some traffic lights and then someone rear ends me, I stupidly increased the risk of something bad happening to me, but I absolutely am not to blame for the accident. The person who drove into my rear is to blame. As a woman and as a rider it's important to have this concept clear in my head. I choose not to be out by myself in the city when it's dark, to decrease the risk of getting attacked and I also chose to learn some self-defence techniques so that if I am attacked I have a better chance of coming out ok. Some women will walk the streets alone at night and some women will not choose to take self-defence lessons. If they are attacked that does not mean they are to blame; the attacker is 100% to blame, but they did [knowingly or unknowingly] increase the risk. Motorcycle riding is exactly the same. I think it is good practice to always 100% support those people who have been in a motorcycle accident that was caused by another road user despite what measures they did or did not take to reduce the risk. Obviously it's sensible for each of us to reduce our risks and help each other reduce their risks too.

The philosophy that Floyd mentioned is great so long as we don't internalise the idea that it's always our fault if we get in an accident. I don't think that's a healthy attitude. Back to the women being attacked simile; imagine how horrible it would be, to be raped and then even after the rape have this idea in your head that because you may not have done enough to reduce the risk, you are to blame. I don't think it's as bad for a motorcyclist getting in an accident, but I don't think it would be nice either to be lying in hospital after some drunk fool crashed into you, believing that you are to blame. It would be even worse [in both of these scenarios] if people around you were offering no support/sympathy because they mistakenly believed that you were to blame.

Sorry if I turned the conversation a little bit dark! It just seemed like a relevant simile.


Also... all my accidents happens when I'm driving at low speed (under 20mph) so now I always carefully speed pass cars until I'm driving by myself on the road. I know some of you will call me reckless and a noob, but part of driving safely is to not drive near dangerous conditions, and driving near other drivers is literally dangerous.

I do the same. If someone is driving erratically/dangerously then I try to safely get away from them. I wont always overtake, sometimes I'll just make a much bigger distance between us or if there are multiple lanes I'll switch to a slower lane adding maybe ~5 minutes onto my journey time but creating a safe distance between myself and the crazy person.

jd254
November 14th, 2011, 11:11 AM
...the difference between risk and blame....

fyi: I'm stealing everything you wrote and pretending I came up with it.

akima
November 14th, 2011, 11:13 AM
Off topic a bit, but I've found that looking at the front wheel of cars waiting to pull out is a great technique. You can see the movement of that front wheel with the slightest creep out towards an intersection, and you can pick up movement better than if you are looking at the whole car, or the hood or bumper. Saved my bacon a few times -- you see that wheel start to turn and you know the car may pull out, so you get down to 30 mph or below immediately and cover the brake and clutch. More than once, I'd had a car pull out, oblivious that I was there, and I was able to avoid any drama. Totally would have been his fault if he'd pulled out with me coming and nailed me, but good example of how we can still control our own destiny and avoid other people's mistakes. :)

You seem to have the difference between risk and blame figured out!

Thanks for the front-wheel tip. That sounds like very good advice to me. I fully appreciate the stopping distance thing too; I've seen the stats on how stopping distance increases exponentially as you add more speed and to some extent I've experimented with it on my bike. The idea of dropping down to 30MPH for events like this makes perfect sense (so long as you throw in some mirror checks to make sure anyone behind you has noticed your change of speed... tail gaters... grrrrrr).

akima
November 14th, 2011, 11:13 AM
fyi: I'm stealing everything you wrote and pretending I came up with it.

He he... honoured that you think my words are worthy of stealing ;)

akima
November 14th, 2011, 11:24 AM
one thing that isn't burned into my brain yet are the parked cars... I never look out for parked cars that may be pulling out without looking. I think I need a few more near miss before it becomes a natural reflex to be ready for it.

I haven't had anyone pull out in front of me yet from a parking space. Thanks for the reminder. I think I'll review my riding behaviour around parked cars. When I was on a motorcycle course earlier this year they did cover this a bit. Much of the emphasis was on setting your speed correctly so you have time to stop or perform a controlled swerve if someone suddenly pulls out. They also talked about road position: position the bike away from the parked cars. One final thing they mentioned was that if parked cars on the road meant that 2 cars can't use the same stretch of road, then you shouldn't use the reduced width of the bike to your speed advantage and share the road with an oncoming car. This means you will be squeezed up close against both the oncoming car and the parked cars. This gives you no room to manoeuvre. My instructors said that you should present yourself in the road such that the oncoming car wont attempt to share the road with you. I normally give them a friendly wave after doing that because I know it probably annoys them... I'd rather they be annoyed than I be squished.


I got a helmet. I wear jeans and boots. What should my next gear be?


You want every inch of you skin covered in abrasion resistant protective motorcycle gear. This means you need: protective trousers, jacket, gloves, boots and helmet. They all need to be fitted securely so that if you come off the bike none of your gear is going to come off. What good are highly abrasion resistant gloves if the moment you start sliding on the road your gloves pop-off?

You also want impact protection built into your gear, with the crucial areas being: ankles, knees, hips, spine, shoulders, head and elbows.

Finally: your gear should be pretty (so you want to wear it!) and suitable for the weather that you ride in. Getting too hot or too cold can be very dangerous in and of itself.

gfloyd2002
November 14th, 2011, 11:32 AM
Finally: your gear should be pretty (so you want to wear it!)

lol @ women riders. :rolleyes: Get what is practical, and wear ugly stuff with pride. :thumbup:

setasai
November 14th, 2011, 11:35 AM
man I hate it when you guys give me good advices that will cost me money... ugh. ATGATT will be next year after I finish college this semester and get myself a FT position.

I got a helmet. I wear jeans and boots. What should my next gear be?

how can you NOT be happy when you ride?

I don't drink :D

Jacket and gloves would be what I would get next. I would start looking now anyways. Who knows when you'll find a good jacket on closeout. I've seen fantastic leather jackets that retail $500 go for $150 on closeout and a nice protective glove can be discounted as cheap as $50. As for jeans, consider purchasing some knee armor... some for as cheap as $30 can still be a huge step up in protection.

Look at revzilla.com, sportbiketrackgear.com, motorcycle-superstore.com, motorcyclegear.com... there are a few others but these are the ones I check often for closeouts and reviews. Be patient and you'll find wicked cool gear that makes you WANT to wear it at prices that make you proud to own it.

Some people get on a bike all angry and ready to ride risky and agressive. Not a good attitude when you need all you're attention for riding as you have already noticed.

Numbersix
November 14th, 2011, 03:05 PM
One more thought about clutching:

The clutch (obviously) disconnects the engine from the drivetrain. Somewhere in here there was a comparison to a bicycle; you can analogize (roughly) to not pedaling while the bike coasts about.

The really important difference is that on a bike, if you start moving your feet nothing happens until your pedaling provides forward power, and a bike's mechanism doesn't provide any deceleration when you stop pedaling (no 'engine brake) except for some very old one-speeds.

You can, on a bike, break (not brake) the rear wheel free from a coast if you really stomp on the pedal. By 'break free' I mean cause the tire to spin rather than roll. Maybe this is obvious, but that's the same kind of traction you get in a skid; less, aka 'bad.'

In a car (or motorcycle) you can get the same effect by dropping the clutch with the revs up significantly higher than your travelling speed.

The converse can happen if you declutch and your revs are significantly *lower* than your travelling speed. Any time the engine+transmission suddenly says X mph, and you're doing Y mph, and the difference between X and Y is more than your tire's --->spare<--- grip -- what's not already being used to handle whatever maneuver you're doing -- your tire is now a slidy thing and not a rolly thing.

Also bad for grip is suddenly shifting the weight about. Sudden engine braking will cause weight to shift to the front, putting weight on it and increasing its tire patch (the bit in contact with the road). Lots of grip on the front wheel. Then, and unlike manual braking not so much under your direct control, the forks uncompress, the weight goes off, the tire patch shrinks, and all the front wheel grip goes away.

If your wheels weren't perfectly straight during all this the effect is that the bike straightens up or even highsides and the rider may go over and off in the same direction (hmm, this sounds like the first post...). This tendency is exacerbated if the initial engine braking takes so much weight off the rear that it slides first.

In a car this 'just' causes oversteer because the center of gravity of a car is well inside of its outside wheels (aka it's in the middle of the car). It still isn't a good thing unless you're trying to initiate a drifting contest.

With the clutch out, even dropping the throttle won't (usually; I haven't tried closing the throttle in 1st from 12k RPM and I'm not going to) cause this disaster. Maximum maneuvering grip is obtained by keeping throttle neutral, not clutching.

Blackwidow
November 14th, 2011, 03:51 PM
soooo after reading a gazillion posts, hope you're still going to pay for your friends bike, because at the end of the day...YOU DROPPED THE BIKE. if you're still not clear as to what happened to the bike, but so clearly and so vividly remember every movement that took place, maybe you should hop on your own bike and re-enact the whole incident and see what happens.

bottom line is, you dropped someone elses bike, and it would be only morally correct to pay for the damages...that my .02 cents ;)

Locksmiff
November 15th, 2011, 02:11 AM
soooo after reading a gazillion posts, hope you're still going to pay for your friends bike, because at the end of the day...YOU DROPPED THE BIKE...........The friend apparently smashed his car, makes them even now apparently according to the friend who stacked the bike.

It would appear no honour amongst friends if the stories are correct, besides no friend has asked the other friend to cough up for any costs for damages, so really that side of it is none of our business only what has been openly said in this topic by either friend is.

The girlfriend should be responsible anyway, she was the one supposed to be riding it, not her brother.

setasai
November 15th, 2011, 12:45 PM
It's ok. The past is the past. I think the OP and many other members on this forum has learned something. So i think this thread has served its purpose. Let us not dwell on the past and look towards a fruitful and enjoyable riding future. :)

scottsa
November 15th, 2011, 12:48 PM
But the kindle version doesnt have all the pretty pictures in COLOR! :(


It does if you have a color version of the Nook. :D

onetruevibe
November 15th, 2011, 12:52 PM
Or the Kindle app on your iPad. :thumbup:

Jiggles
November 15th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Or a book...

Havok
November 15th, 2011, 10:00 PM
With clutch in and no throttle you had your front end compressed in the turn, with the front tire turned a small elevation change in the road like if the road comes up or your go down in a divit it may through you over the top. Honestly think you just tucked the front end, perhaps a bit of front brake and since the front was compressed you fell over the bike when it did.

From now on power through the turns, even out your suspension and learn proper riding technique.

drowe531
November 17th, 2011, 02:09 PM
Jeff beat me to it, but when taking a turn you should slow down and make sure your in the proper gear before you actually start the turn. You shouldn't have to pull in the clutch or use the brakes in a turn. If for some reason you do have to pull in the clutch or brake be sure to stand the bike up straight. Once you enter the turn you should at least keep the throttle even but best practice is to start accelerating once you hit the peak of the turn.

I'm sure New Jersey can be just as fun as driving in Boston. Be sure to constantly be looking at your surroundings and I usually go with expecting everyone to pull out in front of you.

For red lights and intersections, wait another second at the light after it turns green. There are too many people that go through lights as you have already seen.

massacremasses
November 17th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Or a book...

word
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/5/11/fd30a859-9794-40c7-b557-dfebe8d735ff.jpg

loz944
April 20th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Ok my 2 pennies worth what ever the reason for the accident is now irrelevant I have been riding Bikes on and off for nearly 30 years.

Bikes have changed greatly in that time and so has road conditions also the way we are taught to ride has changed.

WE ARE HUMAN WE F**K UP

we never stop learning I read books watch videos all the time and have found out recently things I was unaware off


As said before you are young your perception of danger is probably very different from older riders Just relax enjoy the ride speed is great we all love it but time, place ,etc.

read some of the crash threads here learn by what happened to them .

Whiskey
April 20th, 2012, 08:39 PM
k i can accept that. I knew it would happen, but I was just tired of "you're a noob, you dropped it cuz you didn't know what you were doing" kind of answers. I wouldn't have a problem admitting to something I did. the whole thing was just so weird.

I don't skid on purpose. (those damn metal bridges are scary!) I'm just saying I handle them better than I expected when things come popping out in front of me. We're talking about cars that run stop signs and red lights, parked cars that decides to pull out without looking just as I'm passing by, car that changes lanes without looking just as I'm passing by (this one I couldn't do anything but braked and lean left. I accepted my fate and closed my eyes when his car was already half way on my lane. he saw me last sec and swerved away. eyes were closed for a good 3 secs.)

friggin Jersey City

MSF is expensive. both cris n my sis took it I think, but they did the motorcycle course thing to get their license, and during Hurricane Irene... so I think the instructors just skipped through it. I'll be ok :D (I'm an organ donor. so my death will be put to good use) :D :D

A lot can happen in 3 seconds, lucky you weren't killed
If you're in a bad enough smash then you tend to rupture organs, so no you won't be any use (other than worm food)

I was holding the clutch through the turn (which apparently I shouldn't be doing) so I dont think this theory pans out neither. there was no stutter. it was smooth. bike didnt spin neither...

Sounds like clutch in caused you to lowside, to avoid lowsiding you dumped the clutch & highsided.

i didn't say you were being mean. I'm just saying... its so easy for everybody to point the finger and place blame on the rider. Yes I dropped the bike. I don't know why and I would like to know why so I don't do it again. Things turn out to be inconclusive. fine. I'm just very sensitive to the "it's your fault no matter what" treatment. When I first started driving... I was rear ended at least four times when I was waiting at a red light. Do you know how many ppl offer up reasons as to why it was my fault? everybody. don't even get me started on the story when I drove a car into a wall. I have an extra convenient excuse for that one too. It's going to sound too convenient that you won't believe me and still say it was my fault. (excuse is there was oil on the road, a lot of oil, or some slippery substance, and it rained RIGHT after the incident so I cant even have proof) so... is this another story I'm making up? Was that my fault too? Everybody seem to think so. So... you go ahead and hate ppl for having "excuses." I have a lot, and they're all true, except this one. I dont have one because I dont know why.



the bridge was my fault. I didn't remember to keep extra room in front of me in case the car in front of me decides to slam on his brakes.

this "less rear more front" is going to throw me off. I dont think I can control a sliding bike when all the braking is up front. I dont know how to handle that. I'm kinda afraid to practice that. and by practice.. I'm afraid of going 40 mph in a parking lot and hard braking. Swerving is easy. I'll swerve any chance I get. I only hard brake when I have no choice.



sure... he can take whatever. like I said, not much damage... it's not like I'm swapping for broken parts.

he did rear end a car while driving my mustang once while driving through a monsoon!... I'm calling it even. broke my front bumper... :*-(

there was so much rain... I don't even want to say it was his fault.

Wet oil gives a rainbow slick

18131

I call BS, as the rain would have made the oil even more visible

I say this with only love and cuddles :D... but... you've got a lot to learn! That's not a bad thing. I was where you were when I first started riding. Not that long ago.

Ok, so brand spanking new tires... that's not a good thing!! Brand new tires are not grippy. It takes a while for them to become grippy. I suspect this guy didn't know about the nature of new tires:
Q9zNUPDmnz4
(brand new bike!)

As for the shifting your hips thing: I'm imagining you moving side to side on your seat (like you see moto gp racers doing). I'm sure that will be a great thing to learn further down the line for high speed cornering, but for a new rider (like you and me), it's not necessary for our daily city riding and certainly isn't necessary for slow speed riding. Counter steering is the universally hailed method of quickly turning a bike. I really can't imagine that moving your weight side to side is quicker than counter steering. If you apply a small amount of force to the handle bar it will full-on drop the bike over to the side: it's a great feeling when you get confident with it. Learn how to do it confidently and it'll become the only way you decide to steer the bike (except maybe for very slow speed riding... like 5 mph... at that speed you'd might use your weight and steer the motorcycle like a bicycle)

Glad you figured out what likely caused your accident. Seems kinda odd to me that you went back to that same spot trying to recreate the accident with your own bike :p

:hug:

You can use a flick of the hips to swerve, it's not as fast a response as countersteering, but can be done

well I wouldn't drop my hips at low speed... I was talking high way to avoid a car that jumps into your lane. I said the counter steering was much more responsive, but I was able to shift from left to right over a larger distance with the hips. I wasn't going anywhere with the counter steering, I was moving quickly... but not far. I'll work on that.

Everybody kept saying I made a noobie mistake.. today would be the third time I drove over it and I didn't see a single thing until looked closely while I was off the bike. This was unavoidable in my book. I was simply at the wrong angle at the wrong speed. I'm not sure if accelerating through the turn would have made it worse or not.

So it was avoidable, less of an angle or more speed would have prevented you from lowsiding, no lowside means no over the top reaction to pick the bike up, means no highside

As for potholes a slight roll on & stand up slightly out of the saddle to ride out the shock