Front Wheel Skid(s)

[Joshorilla]

Today at 12:45 & 17:05 I skidded my front wheel and both times managed to avoid a spill, so I thought i'd write a little report as to what I did to avoid coming down like a sack of ****.

Road conditions: It has been light drizzle for the last few days, the temperature has dropped and the wind has picked up, this combined with the time of year means all the leaves are on the ground & the water tends to pool on the surface of the road and not evaporate when it's colder, horrible conditions for riding a bike.

First Time: I was riding back to work after returning home for my hour lunch break after enjoying a bacon and fried egg sandwich, the road was caked with leaves and I was on a downhill road approaching a stop sign (which over here are a yellow line on the road you have to stop at), approaching the yellow line with both brakes I applied gentle pressure traveling no more than ten miles per hour and my wheel skidded about a foot and regained traction, I put this down to me not throwing the steering down the other way trying to correct it too much, not suddenly releasing the brake but rather slowly letting the brake go and lightening my touch a little while steering into the lean.

Second Time: Returning home I encounter a roundabout and I was too busy looking right (left if in USA) that I failed to notice the traffic light at the exit I wanted was turning and I accelerated into the roundabout just as everyone jammed on their brakes on the roundabout, I almost rear ended a Fiat 500 (little faggy cars). I did the same as above, only the wheel skidded twice as far and regained traction a few times throughout the skid.

Thought: It shits you up! You shake a good bit riding home, you're on edge as it happens very fast and you WILL ride more cautious afterwards.

Conclusions: Always ride to the road conditions and your abilities then scale it down slightly, when you wheel does skid, no sudden movements as you'll cause it to loose more traction, keep calm, slow the throttle gently release the brake, slightly correct your steering, and maybe you'll be ok!

[Alex]

Good on you for keeping it upright. I'd agree with most of your tips, other than the release gently part. Once the front locks, it's providing no directional control or stability, so if the bike isn't completely balanced, it's going to hit the ground pretty quickly. The only thing keeping it up while the bike is still moving is to get it the wheel rolling again to provide traction. Letting the front brake off gently/smoothly isn't as effective or quick as simply trying to come off the front brake as quickly as possible. Gentle steering movement, calm attitude to try and keep the bike stable via balance only, but get that front wheel moving before reapplying the brake more gently.

This is a bit different IMO than dealing with a locked rear, where there is much more time available to deal with things smoothly, and you're trying to release it gently and in a straight line so it doesn't suddenly gain traction and yaw the bike quick enough to flip the rider off.

I've had similar experiences, locking the front on a wet downhill when coming to a stop, and have been fortunate enough to keep it upright (most of the time ).

[Joshorilla]

Oh I agree with you, when I say slowly I more mean to say "don't go releasing the brake fully to regain control then jam it on again really hard as you have to stop only to spill it worse the second time" as both my situations involved having to stop, else I would have been side swiped by a car or rammed into the back of one, so when I say I released it slowly, I more or less released to very light braking at that point it regained traction and I went to a little bit of braking.

I am not sure if my new winter gloves are partially to blame, I am still developing a feel for my levers through all that leather, goretex and wool.

P.S. Oh, and I am seriously thinking of swapping out the front IRC POS for something that sticks more.

P.P.S I haven't cleaned my brakes for a while *guilty face* job for saturday.

[broken neck]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

I almost rear ended a Fiat 500 (little faggy cars).

Wrote the guy who rides a 250cc...

Sorry had to quote that...

héhéhéhéhéhéhéhéhéhéhé

[alex.s]

front wheel sliding from too much braking upright: release front brake immediately, prepare for snap on bars, once bars stiffen, apply steering correction to avoid hitting whatever you're about to hit, then apply brakes again.

front wheel sliding while leaned over, slowing: GAS! NOW! if you're lucky you can catch it.

front wheel sliding while leaned over, on gas: MORE GAS! NOW! easier than if you're off the gas because it slides away much slower but still the same outcome.

front wheel sliding while transitioning: do nothing, the moment has already passed and its too late to fix now.

both wheels sliding while leaned over: prop the bike up with your knee and hope for the best.

[LNasty]

some dude here in Houston area drives a red fiat 500 and had a set of those huge metal balls hanging off the back, couldn't help but laugh at him. And I can say that those things are so small, my bike felt big sitting next to it.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by alex.s

front wheel sliding from too much braking upright: release front brake immediately, prepare for snap on bars, once bars stiffen, apply steering correction to avoid hitting whatever you're about to hit, then apply brakes again.

front wheel sliding while leaned over, slowing: GAS! NOW! if you're lucky you can catch it.

front wheel sliding while leaned over, on gas: MORE GAS! NOW! easier than if you're off the gas because it slides away much slower but still the same outcome.

front wheel sliding while transitioning: do nothing, the moment has already passed and its too late to fix now.

both wheels sliding while leaned over: prop the bike up with your knee and hope for the best.

If the front wheel is sliding there are a few things that you can do to help the situation. First of all, you want to come out of the brakes just enough to stop the slide whether you are leaned over or not. If you must stop then come out of the brakes just enough to stop the skid and re-apply in hopes of stopping in time. If you release completely and try to reapply again you are more likely to hit that which you were trying to avoid. If you can swerve to avoid it, try that. If not, try to stop.

If the front wheel is sliding and you are mid corner then again, come out of the brakes enough to stop the slide. AND, something that wasn't mentioned at all here, try to get the bike upright ASAP in order to gain more traction from having more of the tire on the ground. How do you do this? Counter-steer it back up.

So, you are going around a right hand turn and the front starts to slide? What bar do you press on?

And here is an article I wrote on front end feel, may offer some more insight...

http://www.motomom.ca/the-limit-expl...tire-traction/

[alex.s]

hi misti!

if your front is sliding going into a corner, wouldn't you want to steer into the slide to try to reduce the force on the front tire? as in, instead of counter-steering by turning the wheel into the turn to try to pull the bike up, what if you steer the other way, lining up the front wheel with the direction it is sliding? this will catch the front but it wont pick the bike up... actually probably the opposite if you don't have a feather-light touch on the bars when they grab...

my thought is that trying to countersteer while the front tire is sliding will only put more force on the front tire, exacerbating the slide


my thought would be.... i'm making a right hander, the front starts to slide and the bars naturally try to go right... but if you push out and turn the bars left, the tire catches... but then you're still in the bad situation of too much lean angle right? so what if you steer away from the turn while you give it gas and then try to pick it up? hmmmmmmmmm

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Misti

If the front wheel is sliding there are a few things that you can do to help the situation. First of all, you want to come out of the brakes just enough to stop the slide whether you are leaned over or not. If you must stop then come out of the brakes just enough to stop the skid and re-apply in hopes of stopping in time. If you release completely and try to reapply again you are more likely to hit that which you were trying to avoid. If you can swerve to avoid it, try that. If not, try to stop.

I think there may be different strategies that might be more or less successful depending on why the front locked. If it's a dry surface, the tire is warmed up, and the front locked due to applying too much pressure too quickly; a rider might certainly get away with just lessening the front brake pressure enough for the friction between the tire and ground to overcome the braking force, and start rolling again without ever having to fully release the brake.

But if it was a wet and slippery surface, and the front locked due to too much brake pressure, just lessening that pressure could be pretty chancy about whether that slick road / paint line will ever provide enough friction against the sliding tire until there is very, very little brake pressure being applied. I'm not suggesting the rider take their hands off the lever and pray it works out; I just think that it really does have to get to almost no remaining brake pressure for the wheel to start turning again in very slick conditions. Gently getting to that point doesn't buy any time or improve your chances compared to getting to it as quickly as possible.

[Joshorilla]

What i've learned from the replies.

1. I probably should have come off the brakes entirely, and maybe tried to avoid the cars as I wouldn't have stopped if I did, but at the time I would have rather spilled over and not end up in the line of traffic, then let off the brakes recover and get slammed by a bus.

2. I was traveling too slow to counter steer effectively, so the bike was leaning to the left, the front wheel going right, if I would have turned right to counter steer the wheel would have just shot off to the right more when it gripped and I would have gone over, I steered to the left and that gave it more surface area at the angle giving it more grip, when it gripped it went to the left and popped the bike back up.

3. I did let off the brakes enough to re-gain grip (as I didn't stack it), so while I had a greater chance of get traction faster if I did release entirely, I got lucky and managed to apply the right amount of force, I may refer to myself as the human abs :P

I have noticed for the last few days my brakes have felt mushier, I put it down to the cold, I shall take my bike into the shop to get new fluid after I get payed and buy new brake lines, I shall also soak the brakes in brake cleaner / carb cleaner as I haven't done so in a while, and I shall de-cake my disks with solvent and re-set them with a gently ride on the flats to get the compound back on the brake surface.

I have enough of doing RCA's at work, I have practically done one on this thread :P

I am also not a fan of the IRC's in wet weather, they have all the grip, then suddenly POP gone.

Happened to this idiot also...

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

lets boil this down to some facts

1) its easier to control a front slide when the bike is upright compared to leaned over
2) its easiest to lose the front during braking
3) its hard to lose the front under WOT


so, do as much of your braking as you can when upright.
when you a turning, insure the rear wheel is properly loaded.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by alex.s

l3) its hard to lose the front under WOT

Seems to me this means we should just stay WOT at all times for safety's sake.

[alex.s]

now you understand 3:-)

[alex.s]

enjoy this video of a guy stuffing the front by slamming the brakes

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Alex]

Unexpected peg scrape? Time to lock up the front wheel and hope for the best.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

enjoy this video of a guy stuffing the front by slamming the brakes...........

Poor guy, ....... bike was leading him.

Originally Posted by alex.s

.........my thought is that trying to countersteer while the front tire is sliding will only put more force on the front tire, exacerbating the slide..........

I agree with this thought, the front contact patch is our fulcrum or point of leverage during counter-steering, while the handlebar is our lever.
As we push that grip, we are twisting that rubber patch and forcing it to change direction, fighting the natural tendency of the bike to stay in the turn (unless the bike has an non-stable setting).
That is our tool to throw the bike out of lateral balance, into a deeper lean angle or out of it, but some grip is needed down there.

As we can see in the video, once the front tire starts sliding, the effective steering of the bike is impaired (or completely gone for a good slide), and the tendency of the bike is to widen the arc of the turn (or going straight in extreme cases).
Note that this is the opposite of a rear slide, when the bike over-steers and a high-side may follow.

That widen the arc of the turn means that the radius of turn increases and the lateral forces decrease.
The result is that the balance that had been created between the lean angle and the lateral forces before the front slid is now broken.
The old lean angle is excessive for the new adopted radius of turn and we simply fall; that is one of the reasons that makes this event so unlikely to be recoverable and the fall so quick.

Fortunately, not all front slides are so total and catastrophic.
When the contact patch loses and re-gains grip (slides and rolls) in a rapid succession (due to vibration or road conditions), there is a chance to avoid the fall if the lean angle can be reduced, the tire rolls and the balance is re-gained.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Alex

I think there may be different strategies that might be more or less successful depending on why the front locked. If it's a dry surface, the tire is warmed up, and the front locked due to applying too much pressure too quickly; a rider might certainly get away with just lessening the front brake pressure enough for the friction between the tire and ground to overcome the braking force, and start rolling again without ever having to fully release the brake.

But if it was a wet and slippery surface, and the front locked due to too much brake pressure, just lessening that pressure could be pretty chancy about whether that slick road / paint line will ever provide enough friction against the sliding tire until there is very, very little brake pressure being applied. I'm not suggesting the rider take their hands off the lever and pray it works out; I just think that it really does have to get to almost no remaining brake pressure for the wheel to start turning again in very slick conditions. Gently getting to that point doesn't buy any time or improve your chances compared to getting to it as quickly as possible.

You are right, I just re-read my post and I'm not sure what I was thinking. Actually my brain doesn't work well these days as my 4 year old son STILL wakes up about 4 times per night so I live in a perm state of sleep deprivation and have fuzzy "mom brain" all the time.

I was thinking more in terms of front wheel slides due to over braking in dry conditions hence the part about releasing the brakes enough to stop the skid…


OK that being said, the best thing to do if the front wheel is sliding in a corner is to get it back upright and you would do that by counter-steering it back up. If you are going around a right hand turn (you've already steered the bike in by pressing on the right bar and now have no pressure on either bar) the front starts to slide, you would want to press on the left bar to get it upright and vertical asap. Doing so will not exacerbate the slide, it will reduce the overall lean angle and hopefully allow the front to regain enough traction to prevent a crash.

Get off the front brake immediately and give it some gas if you are able.

Here is another forum thread that discusses the same topic.

http://www.motorcycleforum.com/showt...898#post971898