October 4th, 2016, 03:35 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ruben
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 and 1991 Yamaha Virago XV750 Posts: 228
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Tried to adjust the clutch. Now the bike dies as soon as I start to release clutch!
I took a 50 mile ride this morning on my bike and all was well. I noticed that the clutch seemed to be releasing a little late for my tastes. I had replaced the clutch cable a week or so ago. No problems going into gear or jumping when releasing the clutch.
When I got home, I adjusted the clutch slack on the clutch lever on the handle bars. Not any better. I then adjusted the cable down at the clutch arm on the engine. After that, the bike now immediately dies as soon as I start to release the clutch! It is as if I flipped the kill switch! I can start the bike with the clutch pulled in with no problem, but as soon as I start to release the clutch even a fraction of an inch, the engine dies. No problem with idle or reving the engine with the clutch pulled in or in neutral. What did I do wrong!?! |
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October 4th, 2016, 03:46 PM | #2 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ruben
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 and 1991 Yamaha Virago XV750 Posts: 228
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Boy am I about to look stupid!!!
I had the kickstand down when I tried to release the clutch! I'm not at the bike right now, was that the issue? Duh!!! |
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October 4th, 2016, 03:50 PM | #3 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
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MOTM - Mar '16
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Yup. As soon as you put it in gear with the kickstand down it will die. Or as soon as the clutch is released and the switch is activated.
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October 4th, 2016, 03:53 PM | #4 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ruben
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 and 1991 Yamaha Virago XV750 Posts: 228
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Quote:
Boy do I look dumb. Now to figure out how to adjust the clutch lever release point... |
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October 4th, 2016, 03:56 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ruben
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 and 1991 Yamaha Virago XV750 Posts: 228
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By the way, with the kick stand down, the bike starts with the clutch pulled in and goes into gear without dying, but the when the clutch lever microswitch opens (clutch barely released), it kills the bike.
Stupid...me I mean... |
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October 4th, 2016, 03:58 PM | #6 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Does your neutral light work? It should die with the kickstand down as soon as you put it in gear..............
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October 4th, 2016, 04:01 PM | #7 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ruben
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 and 1991 Yamaha Virago XV750 Posts: 228
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Quote:
It then died as the microswitch on the clutch lever opened. |
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October 4th, 2016, 04:22 PM | #8 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Quote:
However, it's there for a reason, as you just found out, to keep you "safe".
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October 4th, 2016, 04:24 PM | #9 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ruben
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 and 1991 Yamaha Virago XV750 Posts: 228
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Yeah, idiot switches everywhere on this bike. Probably needed.
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October 4th, 2016, 04:27 PM | #10 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Kerry
Location: Ventura, CA
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MOTM - Apr '18, Apr '17, Apr '16
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In gear with the kickstand down, yeah, that switch got me one night, too. I was tripping out on why it wouldn't go! Then I realized what I did.
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October 4th, 2016, 04:32 PM | #11 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ruben
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 and 1991 Yamaha Virago XV750 Posts: 228
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Quote:
I would have been too damn dumb to realize my mistake I don't think. I won't forget it again. |
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October 4th, 2016, 04:33 PM | #12 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Kerry
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I was away from home when I had my moment of "d'oh" but I did figure it out relatively quickly. Good thing, huh?
Glad you figured it out so now you know. Also, it's good that the safety switch works! |
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October 5th, 2016, 06:49 AM | #13 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
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MOTM - Aug '15
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Quote:
On the NewGen, the clutch switch is connected to the sidestand switch rather than directly to ground (as found on the PreGen and 500). For the NewGen clutch switch to work, the stand has to be up also. I assume this is a tweak to prevent you from just holding the clutch to start it while it's in gear and you're not on the bike. Letting go of the clutch after that would kill it, but it might lurch forward, possibly right off the sidestand.
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*** Unregistered, I'm not your mom and I'm not paying for your parts, so do whatever you want with your own bike. *** |
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October 5th, 2016, 07:04 AM | #14 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Quote:
I have video of my wife's pregen dying as soon as it's put in gear with the stand down. I was behind her at the gas station and she couldn't figure out why it was dying. I'll admit I was laughing a bit.
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October 5th, 2016, 07:07 AM | #15 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
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October 5th, 2016, 12:01 PM | #16 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot.
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MOTM - Aug '15
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Quote:
The clutch switch is dual-throw. The black/yellow wire (yellow/green in the main harness) connects to the junction box. When the lever is released, it bridges to the black/red (green) wire going to the neutral switch. When the lever is pulled, it bridges to the black (black/yellow) wire running directly to ground inside the left control. Any time the lever is pulled, it should ground the safety switch circuit, allowing both the starter circuit and the igniter to work. On the NewGen, the switch is wired up as single-throw (the neutral switch circuit no longer runs through the clutch switch). When the lever is pulled, the bridged connection goes down the green/white wire to the sidestand switch. For that circuit to ground, the lever has to be pulled plus the stand has to be up.
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*** Unregistered, I'm not your mom and I'm not paying for your parts, so do whatever you want with your own bike. *** |
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October 5th, 2016, 01:59 PM | #17 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Quote:
Have a look at this again: http://faq.ninja250.org/images/a/a4/...matic_-_R4.pdf The neutral wire does go through the clutch switch but not in the way you describe it here. Every manual I've seen shows it as such. You're mixing up the color of wires and what they do. Interesting note: According to the diagrams, you shouldn't be able to operate the starter with the clutch in, sidestand down and in gear. Haven't tested this though.
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October 5th, 2016, 04:42 PM | #18 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot.
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MOTM - Aug '15
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Quote:
One thing to keep in mind is that the igniter and starter circuit relay access the safety switches differently. The green/black from the igniter runs through the diodes to the green/white (sidestand), green (neutral), and yellow/green (clutch). If any one (or more) of those is "safe" and complete to ground, the igniter will work and allow the bike to run. So you're sitting on the running bike, ready to take off, but you left the sidestand down. It's in neutral, so the neutral switch is closed and the igniter works. You pull the clutch and put it in gear. The neutral switch is now open, but the clutch switch (to ground) is closed, so the igniter still works. As you release the clutch lever, the clutch switch opens and the igniter no longer works, killing the engine. Once you have the sidestand up, its switch closes to ground and the igniter keeps working, allowing you to do whatever you want with the clutch lever and gear shifter (which is really handy when you're riding). However, the starter circuit relay is tied directly into the yellow/green wire after the diode. The clutch switch is the only thing that can ground it and allow the starter to work. When you pull the clutch lever, the switch bridges to the black/yellow ground wire and completes the circuit directly. Regardless of the position of the other two switches, the bike will start and run. If you release the clutch lever, the switch bridges to a fork of the green wire from the neutral switch. If you have the clutch released, the bike needs to be in neutral to complete the circuit to ground and start. You need either clutch or neutral for the starter to work (and it's complicated somewhat by the neutral wire passing through the clutch switch). If you unplug the 3-pin connector from the clutch switch, the starter button will be completely dead, because the relay can't ground due to the "broken" yellow/green wire. If you remove the green wire from the clutch switch (should be black/red right at the connector according to the PDF), the bike won't start in neutral (the neutral light will still be on even) with the clutch released. The starter circuit doesn't touch the sidestand switch at all. The NewGen is wired differently. They ran the green neutral wire through Diode A into the yellow/green wire without going through the clutch switch. It looks like they kept the dual-throw switch, but nothing is hooked up to the "neutral switch" contact, so it acts like a single-throw. They've replaced the black/yellow direct ground with a fork of the green/white to the sidestand switch. On the NewGen, the "it'll start and run as long as the clutch is pulled" line only applies if the sidestand is also up. The old setup kept the bike from running if you left the sidestand down, but there might have been a bit of movement, depending on exactly when the clutch switch opened and when the clutch engaged. That's the only reason I can think of for having the clutch switch tie into the sidestand rather than using a direct ground - you need to have the sidestand up (implying that you're on the bike) in order for holding the clutch to work, meaning it's not a big deal if the bike jerks an inch before dying. That little jerk might be enough to knock it off the sidestand if you weren't on the bike.
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October 5th, 2016, 04:53 PM | #19 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Quote:
When you pull in the clutch switch, you're disconnecting the ignitor path straight to Black/yellow ground and connecting the Starter Relay coil AND the ignitor to the neutral ground through the neutral switch. That's where you're getting mixed up! They become one path.... As soon as the path to the neutral switch ground gets broken, IE, putting it in gear, you lose the ignitor path to ground and it dies. Clutch IN, Neutral light goes out, no path to ground. Sidestand down, no path to ground. Please stop mentioning the NewGen, lol. I know it's wired differently and it's not applicable to the OPs situation.
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October 7th, 2016, 08:17 AM | #20 | ||
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot.
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MOTM - Aug '15
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Quote:
Starting at power and working toward ground for the starter circuit:
The yellow/green wire is the only way the starter relay can ground and function. The yellow/green can be grounded either by the clutch switch bridging to the standard black/yellow ground wire in the left control (lever pulled, switch plunger extended) or by passing through (lever released, switch plunger depressed) to the green wire for the neutral switch, which also must be in neutral to complete to ground. If you unplug the 3-pin connector at the clutch switch, the yellow/green wire is "broken" and the starter button will always be dead. http://www.invisibill.net/ninja/250/...es_starter.png is a copy of the diagram with the igniter stuff removed, showing only the starter relay stuff. The igniter's green/black wire can ground three different ways. Through the diodes, it is connected directly to the yellow/green to the clutch switch, the green wire to the neutral switch, and the green/white wire to the sidestand switch. Grounding of the yellow/green wire was explained above. Any time the starter relay has ground, the igniter inherently does also, since it's connected to the same yellow/green wire at the T in the j-box. There is also a green wire running directly to the neutral switch. The starter circuit can only see neutral through the clutch switch, but the igniter has a direct connection to the neutral switch. The igniter will function any time the trans is in neutral, regardless of the other safety switches' positions. If the neutral switch is closed, the green wire is grounded, therefore the green/black wire is grounded. The green/white wire goes to the sidestand switch. When the sidestand is up, the switch bridges to the black/yellow ground wire, and the circuit is grounded. The igniter will function any time the sidestand is up, regardless of the other safety switches' positions. This is what allows the bike to keep running while you're using the clutch and shifter to ride. For completeness, http://www.invisibill.net/ninja/250/...es_igniter.png is a copy of just the igniter stuff. It's identical to the first one with the starter relay removed, as it technically uses all the circuits. However, its direct connection to the neutral switch makes the fork of the green wire running to the clutch switch redundant. Quote:
As long as you have the clutch pulled when you shift into gear, you still have ground via the clutch switch bridging to black/yellow. The neutral switch opens and you lose ground on the green wire, but you still have ground on the yellow/green, from the black/yellow. Clutch lever pulled = direct path to ground. You can sit there in gear with the stand down and the bike will start and run all day, as long as you're holding the clutch. As you release the clutch to start riding, the clutch switch opens and the bike dies, just as the OP experienced.
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