November 22nd, 2010, 03:02 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: 331
|
Snow Tires
Anyone have any experience running the Ninja in the snow? What type of tyres would be best suited for this? I'm thinking knobbies w/ studs.
I was able to find Kenda Trakmaster II in size 130/90-17 for the rear but none for front. This will be my first time doing tire shopping and changing so I'm still a noob with the numbers. But that 17 means it would fit on the 17" rim on the Ninja. I'm already running 130 stock IRC so that measurement is good. I'm not sure of the "90" part. Also, anyone know +/- what's the allowed tire width for the front an rear tires? For example, right now I'm running IRC 110/70-17. Would a 100 or a 120 fit work out okay? What about the rear; +/- 10 would be GTG? Also, anyone know how to work the sizing on this page: http://www.metzelermoto.com/web/cata...et_Enduro1.xml 4.60 - 17 62Q would translate to what width? thx inb4dontdoitbro!!!1111! |
|
November 22nd, 2010, 03:41 PM | #2 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Alex
Location: Belfast, ME
Join Date: Jul 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Honda NT-700-V, formerly, Green 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
|
Indrish, One word: Don't. Not unless you plan on totally trashing your bike. In 1961 I was a college student who was so poor that money thought I was dead. I could not afford a car then, but had an ancient BMW 500cc motorcycle with sidecar. I was in Syracuse NY, where the average snowfall for the winter is 200 inches. I put two cement blocks into the sidecar, got some knobby tyres, and rode all winter showing up in class covered in salty slush, shivering from the cold (We did not have the clothing available today) Riding in this slop was a challenge, to say the least. I still slid and slided all over the place. I would never do it again. Knobby tyres are OK for Jeeps and such. The Ninja is just too sport oriented to be driven on slippery roads. I am sure that someone on this forum will disagree with me, which is OK--purpose of the forum is to exchange information--not to get into pissing matches. My advice to you, and it is only my perception, is to really give this very careful thought. Motorcycles are not meant to be ridden on ice and snow--The only exception being a Ural sidecar rig. Try to find an alternative-even if it means riding the bus--Your Ninja will thank you for it.
__________________________________________________
Ninjette, Sold. New Bike: 2010 Honda NT-700V/VA, 73 Honda 550, 74 Honda 550 |
|
November 22nd, 2010, 06:46 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
indrish, although I share the sentiments of the poster above, I will also say that it can be done, and that it's a ride unlike any other.... Unequaled in danger, and therefor, in thrills...
I too am shopping for a solution, having slid around for the last 5 years on occasion. Knobbies are going to help, but not nearly as much as you think. My idea is to take some knobbies, and put ice screws in-between the knobs, and somehow protect the tube from the inside of the tire being a porcupine.... What I will tell you, is that no manufacturer makes a tubeless ice tire. As you've mentioned Kenda, they make all kinds of cool tires, and quite a few "ice racing tires", which means ultra hard rubber for drilling studs/ice screws into. They are not designed for what you and I want to do... I'll post back once I've found something worth getting excited about.
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 22nd, 2010, 07:12 PM | #5 |
-
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.
|
If you've ever seen motorcycle Ice-Racing then you know that the surface is carefully prepared (plowed, swept, cleaned..... although they do stop short of running a Zamboni between heats).
So the Ice-Racers aren't dealing with the highly variable conditions you'll find on any combination of neighborhood roads, arterials, and highways. During my drive to the airport from my house here in Spokane I see untracked deep-snow conditions in the neighborhood, then "shaving-cream" slush on the arterial roads (caused when the trucks lay down the Urea fluid and then it snows some more) and then patchy hardpack on the highway. Studded motorcycle tires would only be effective on the hardpack highway snow. And even then the cops would probably pull you over and send you to the hospital for a full psychiatric evaluation. |
|
November 22nd, 2010, 07:56 PM | #6 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: J
Location: Oklahoma
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Posts: 771
|
I will be riding year-round, but if I ever get caught in the snow I will probably just roll onto the sidewalk and idle my way home :P . If I cop gives me any trouble I'll just be like "really, really, do you think I am enjoying this?"
Interesting anecdotes, though, on the relative lack of effectiveness of snow tires for real-world riding conditions. I had been wondering about it, and this definitely tells me that no it won't really make a difference :P.
__________________________________________________
Factory Pro Jet Kit, K&N R-0990 Pod Filter, Sportisi VR Black Exhaust, BRT TIS Ignition, White Paint, and 16/41 Sprockets. Soon: Maybe a 37T Rear Sprocket if I get things running like I'd hoped. |
|
November 22nd, 2010, 08:35 PM | #7 |
-
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.
|
Oklahoma?
I've spent time in Oklahoma (Altus, Lawton, Ok-city, Tulsa) and if I were riding a motorcycle there in cold weather my main worry would be "black ice" (a.k.a. "glare ice"). North Texas and Oklahoma are notorious for black ice conditions. |
|
November 23rd, 2010, 07:21 AM | #8 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Alex
Location: Belfast, ME
Join Date: Jul 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Honda NT-700-V, formerly, Green 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
|
We had Black Ice conditions yesterday. It rained and then got really cold quickly. Lots of sirens. The road conditions you describe bring back memories of when I lived in Bonners Ferry, Idaho. I remember "Tractionizing" tyres--where the snow tyres were run over a spiked roller, leaving little holes, which would add traction by attracting snow to them. That was 40+ years ago. I'm sure that they do things much differently now.
__________________________________________________
Ninjette, Sold. New Bike: 2010 Honda NT-700V/VA, 73 Honda 550, 74 Honda 550 |
|
November 23rd, 2010, 08:55 AM | #9 |
Resident Old Guy
Name: Kurt
Location: Goodyear, Az
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): sold Posts: 264
|
I used to ride my GS1100 in as much as a half-inch of snow, just on street tires. But not if the road was frozen underneath.
NAU had several students, who would ride thier dual-sports, all winter long. |
|
November 23rd, 2010, 09:24 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org Monkey Spank
Name: Kevin
Location: Illinois
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Track-Bike Woodcraft clip-ons and rearsets FZ-6 track bike Posts: A lot.
|
If your riding in the snow you have balls that clank my friend.
__________________________________________________
Black 250R Full Area P QC Dyno Jet Kit 100 main 41T Rear Sprocket |
|
November 23rd, 2010, 10:33 AM | #11 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
Yeah, because they are likely frozen solid.
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
November 23rd, 2010, 01:41 PM | #12 |
Resident Old Guy
Name: Kurt
Location: Goodyear, Az
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): sold Posts: 264
|
|
|
November 23rd, 2010, 01:59 PM | #13 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
To the original question: Tire sizes:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcyc.../tire-data.htm so, you're talking about a 125ish rear - not quite wide enough. It's better to go wider in this instance... Currently, I'm looking at the Kenda K761 Dual Sport tires....
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 23rd, 2010, 02:21 PM | #14 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
Not to mention that it blows off your clothes and bike, it doesn't soak you through....
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 23rd, 2010, 02:24 PM | #15 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ichiro
Location: So.Cal. Long Beach.
Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r(sold). 2013 Kymco Super8 150 Posts: 223
|
Quote:
I lived in Boulder,Co. for 15 years and one thing that no one has mentioned are the cars. Riding a bike in the snow while everyone is slip/sliding down the road is an accident waiting to happen. No thanks. Good luck to all of you considering it. |
|
|
November 23rd, 2010, 02:44 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
I went to school with a guy in upstate new york who rode his dirtbike year round in the snow to get to class, no matter what the conditions. Seemed crazy to me at the time. Come to think of it, it still seems crazy to me.
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
November 26th, 2010, 07:48 PM | #17 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
indrish, I just put in an order for these today, will let you know how they work (gonna need snow for that though).
a 3.50 or 3.00-17 up front. I forgot, but I trust the guy at the shop... a 5.10-17 for the back.
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 26th, 2010, 08:30 PM | #18 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: 331
|
Nice! What brand/model?
|
|
November 26th, 2010, 10:26 PM | #19 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
oh shoot, lol, I guess that would be important, huh? IRC GP1. Yea I know we all vowed never to put an IRC on our bikes again, but me thinks it will be a good thing if these stay hard as a rock! :P
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 27th, 2010, 07:31 AM | #20 |
Resident Old Guy
Name: Kurt
Location: Goodyear, Az
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): sold Posts: 264
|
Spooph is going to do double-duty out at the motocross track this year.
|
|
November 27th, 2010, 12:10 PM | #21 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
you better believe it!
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 27th, 2010, 01:00 PM | #22 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: 331
|
reading some reviews of these on advr, they're good double duty tires. anyone know if these at tubed or not?
spooph, post up a vid riding in the snow if you can. |
|
November 28th, 2010, 04:24 PM | #23 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
yes sah! As soon as we get some snow worth making a video over, I will....
Those are tubed... One of my conditions for tires were that they be tubed. 1.) They're cheaper, and for a tire I'd be spending a max of 4 months on, I wanted cheap. No use in paying for a tire that would dry-rot over 8 or so... 2.) I wanted to stud the tires, and for that, I'd need a tube anyway, just to be safe. No reason paying more for a tubeless tire if I'm already planning to use a tube.. 3.) Using tire irons are easier on tubed tires as opposed to radial/non-tubed tires.... I thought this would be a good initiation towards me mounting/balancing my own tires...
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 28th, 2010, 11:13 PM | #24 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: 331
|
Same here. It'll be my first time with tire changes and with tubes.
This tire gets compared with the IRC GP110 and the Kenda K270. The GP1 seems to be more capable on dry pavement of the three, from what i've read. Also, for at home wheel balancing, I picked up one of these in case anyone's interested: http://marcparnes.com/ Yet to try it out but will post a review when i do. |
|
December 9th, 2010, 04:10 PM | #25 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: 331
|
Got the tires on yet?
|
|
December 9th, 2010, 11:55 PM | #26 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
lol, while you were posting, guess what I was doing?
Mounting dirt-bike tires by hand is easy! As long as you have some soapy water! Getting these suckers to pop the bead onto the rim, not so easy. USE PLENTY OF SOAP! After a test-ride on dry asphalt I really can't wait for it to snow! As with most dirt tires, hard cornering suffers, but not by much. At least, not that I could notice with the temps hovering around 40F and sand in the roads. Meaning, I couldn't ride that hard anyway. However, noticed a massive change in handling. The front is HEAVY! And not nearly as firm as it with road-tires. Totally understandable, and should be great for up to 50mph in snow/ice... I think that's the fastest I'll be going in those conditions. Also totally cool up to 80mph (then the popo appeared and I had to slow it down) on dry pavement, so no worries there. The 3.00 is a little small for the front, go with something a smidge bigger. I think a 3.50 would work great! The 3.00 clears the front fender without any modifications. I think the 3.50 would as well, being that it would just be wider, not taller... That's all I got for now...
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
December 10th, 2010, 06:08 AM | #27 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: J
Location: Oklahoma
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Posts: 771
|
Yes!
__________________________________________________
Factory Pro Jet Kit, K&N R-0990 Pod Filter, Sportisi VR Black Exhaust, BRT TIS Ignition, White Paint, and 16/41 Sprockets. Soon: Maybe a 37T Rear Sprocket if I get things running like I'd hoped. |
|
December 10th, 2010, 12:06 PM | #28 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: 331
|
Looks nice. Did you use rimlock for the tubes?
I'm thinking of finding some tubeless knobs instead because I'm not planning on running studs. |
|
December 10th, 2010, 02:38 PM | #29 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
nope, no rim locks, just straight tubes and tires over those...
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
January 7th, 2011, 01:44 PM | #30 |
Not dead yet!
Name: Rob
Location: Marlborough MA
Join Date: Apr 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: 315
|
My dad and my brother-in-law both have ATVs. I keep joking that I'm going to put knobby tires on my motorcycle and go riding with them. I'm still not crazy enough to do it... but that bike looks so bad-ass with those tires!
|
|
January 10th, 2011, 05:18 AM | #31 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mike
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Join Date: Jun 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R-J, 2005 Honda Superhawk VTR1000 Posts: 95
|
Okay, looks like you're going to go through with this. I rode my Honda Superhawk 996 year-round in Colorado.
Here's some advise: 1. Favor the rear brake 2. Ease on the brakes, clutch and throttle 3. Slooowwwww. 4. Don't lean, TURN the front handlebars in a turn (because you're going slow) 5. Stay warm: Have inner gloves under your gauntlets, such as WalMart thin knit gloves 6. Overpants! 7. Jacket liner. 8. Consider velcro'ed heated grips ($70) 9. Consider heated vest. ($200?) |
|
January 22nd, 2011, 09:36 AM | #32 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
Hey Mike!
Thanks for the advice, and concern but have no worries as this will be the 5th winter I'm riding through (and the second one with this bike). All of your points are absolutely accurate and good advice. Some of them I learned the hard way... :P The only thing I have still to do is #9. In fact, let me change alter those points a bit for emphasis: 1.) Don't use the front brake, period. 3.) No joke, if you think you're going too fast, you are. 4.) And don't put your feet down if you have to.
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
December 14th, 2012, 03:30 AM | #33 |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Mithun
Location: India
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R, 2012 Posts: 2
|
I had a chance to ride over Khardungla Pass (~18000 feet) on icy roads. I had deflated the tyres to almost 15psi to get more grip, but there was no way she would ride straight. Even guys with knobblies were struggling.
Lessons learnt: 1. No speeds over 20. 2. No brakes\rapid downshifting. 3. No slowing down either 4. Reduce tyre pressure for more grip. 5. My guess - something like this http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418653 would have helped. Mithun |
|
December 14th, 2012, 05:38 AM | #34 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Al
Location: York, Pa
Join Date: Dec 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300..............2008 Ninja 500-sold...2009 Ninja 250-Crashed Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Sep '14
|
Last futzed with by allanoue; December 14th, 2012 at 06:53 AM. Reason: noob YouTube fix |
|
December 14th, 2012, 06:14 AM | #35 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999
|
I used to ride my dirt bikes in the snow, when I was a kid, on the street, off road and on the frozen river. It seemed easy back then. Knobbies were slick on the snow covered roads. I have been road racing for many years now and have used rain tires for "wet races". I often wonder how they would do on a snow covered road. They have a high level of traction in the rain and dont really wear out to fast.
|
|
December 14th, 2012, 10:21 AM | #36 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Jim
Location: NJ
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300, KTM EXC610SMR Posts: 913
|
Go buy some short hex head sheet metal screws and get the cordless drill out with a socket. On true snow and ice the knobbies are useless without studs or screws.
Rimlocks are for low pressures, below 18 PSI. You won't need any. Keep pressures in the low 20s so the tire flexes, beware of this as speeds increase, avoid highways and over 40 MPH. Adding screws adds weight so don't over do it, but the more you have the more traction you get. If you use them on bare pavement they will be a hinderance and you can slide out easily, they also wear quickly and pull out. I race snow scrambles and have tried many combos of screws and studs. They all suck. You can get great traction but will have low life, longer life, low traction. Pick your poison. I'd guess a line of 3 screws across the tire every 6-8" will get you by. A cheap DS bike would be a far better canidate for this unless your bike is fairly trashed already. |
|
December 14th, 2012, 02:49 PM | #37 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
I have ridden dirtbikes in the snow a few times and even that is no easy task. And consider an MX dirtbike weights 215lbs which means it is a hell of a lot easier to put your foot down to save it when you need to, and the riding position and techniques for turning and cornering make this easier as well and cater towards loss of traction.
So with that tire you will get traction to get moving no problem in the snow, thick wet snow is sticky to so no problem their, light stuff is trickier. But traction to get moving isn't the problem, especially with the ninja250 as its power doesn't exactly hit hard which is perfect for riding in the snow. Its turning you have to worry about. You won't be able to lean the bike like normal to make curves whatsoever, you will lose the front, and go low side, and you will try to save the fall with your leg but most likely blow out your knee or something similar as ninja weights 360lbs not 215lbs like a dirtbike. I don't even need to say you will lose the rear end around turns as that is obvious and you better get used to it, and perfect counter steering and drifting. If you go more than a few MPH in snow on a normal route you are going to crash, most likely several times, there is no (maybe) here. Add onto all of this you have to deal with ice build up on brakes, snow pack in tires and your stopping ability is non existent, lock up the front and you are going down. Oh and your rear tire will lock up instantly if you touch the rear brake, and even sometimes just with engine braking I road my MX bike in the snow over thanksgiving weekend in PA riding with my buddy. I went down 3 times before i called it quits and the 3rd time i was going down a hill and my front brake iced up and could not slow down at all just picked up speed and had to dump the bike. At that point i said, This sh!t is crazy, i don't need to hurt myself out here which is a high probability. We did the same thing last year in Oct. It was fun but like i said, crashing is not an odd occurrence. Will be looking for your post in the (@*&^@$*#^!!#*&^*) Crashed!!! thread |
|
October 8th, 2018, 06:16 PM | #38 | |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Mason
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Join Date: Oct 2018 Motorcycle(s): my beautiful baby, 2001 Ninja 250 Posts: 1
|
Quote:
|
|
|
October 8th, 2018, 08:33 PM | #39 |
Participant
Name: Dave
Location: South of Seattle
Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): '94 K75 std Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Aug '15
|
Welcome, Mason!
You have given the breath of life to a dead thread! |
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Snow ! | Ninjinsky | Off-Topic | 134 | December 2nd, 2014 06:00 PM |
Riding in the snow ;) | Gorilla25 | Videos | 26 | March 22nd, 2013 03:34 PM |
[superbikeplanet.com] - Let It Snow | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | January 14th, 2013 01:20 PM |
Sunny and the Snow | BlueTyke | Off-Topic | 15 | January 22nd, 2009 11:23 AM |
|
|