November 15th, 2010, 12:30 PM | #1 |
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5 motorcyclists killed in San Diego
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November 15th, 2010, 01:45 PM | #2 |
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i hate stupid drivers
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November 15th, 2010, 01:58 PM | #3 |
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that's really sad news . I hope they find that civic owner and throw him into a cell for life.
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November 15th, 2010, 02:17 PM | #4 |
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^yep
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November 15th, 2010, 02:27 PM | #5 |
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That's some serious carnage. I've driven on 2 lane roads similar to that and passing a group that big is just stupid. That civic driver is a goddamn idiot.
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November 15th, 2010, 02:27 PM | #6 |
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What a sad story. Thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families.
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November 15th, 2010, 03:01 PM | #7 |
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That sucks! My question is what happened to the in the Honda Civic?
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November 15th, 2010, 03:42 PM | #8 |
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Probably in Mexico by now, unreachable.
AP reports that the driver of the Dodge, whose female passenger was killed when one of the bike impacted her door, was arrested five hours after the wreck when officers noticed the smell of alcohol on his breath. Blood alcohol tests are pending, AP reports that police told them it would be two weeks for results. Hopefully he was in custody for those 5 hours, otherwise he can claim that he drank after the wreck and get a skate on the DUI part of the mess. It's important to note that it has *not* been determined that alcohol played a part in the Dodge's part of this tragedy. Other notes: There were twelve bikes altogether, all were wearing helmets and, according to the CHP at the scene, were not speeding. The Honda was reported to have California plates, though nobody was able to get any of the plate info. The Dodge plowed into the riding group mid-pack, the lead riders were not hit. Another story reports the Honda was doing as much as 100mph when he was passing the riders. The AMA is pushing equal justice, I hope there is some in this case. |
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November 15th, 2010, 05:46 PM | #9 |
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Yeah I watched this last night. I thought the driver of the white car was at the scene with alcohol on his breath? Regardless, it's real sad. Stay safe everyone.
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November 15th, 2010, 07:22 PM | #10 |
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Our thoughts and prayers go out to those poor people. What a tragedy.
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November 15th, 2010, 08:55 PM | #11 |
crash 250, get supersport
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Terrible, and I lived in Lakeside, too.
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November 18th, 2010, 11:19 AM | #12 |
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Nothing new on the driver of the gold Honda that triggered this massacre. The driver of the Dodge, Carlos Bobadilla of Mexicali, Mexico was released on Sunday. If tests come back positive for alcohol he may be charged for drunken driving. Hopefully there's some way to keep him in the states, because extraditing someone from Mexico is very difficult.
FWIW, the car was actually owned by the female passenger (also a Mexican citizen) killed in the crash. A local HD dealership is holding a blood drive to help the hospitalized riders, many of whom have pretty serious injuries. |
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November 18th, 2010, 11:43 AM | #13 | |
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Quote:
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November 18th, 2010, 11:44 AM | #14 |
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November 18th, 2010, 11:52 AM | #15 |
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They were doing everything right. Just out for a ride on the clubs 10th anniversary. Slow or not the civic caused it. It is not fair to imply the riders were at fault at all for any reason. The guy in the civic needs to be charged with murder IMHO at the very least 5 counts of manslaughter are in order.
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November 18th, 2010, 11:54 AM | #16 |
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very sad. hope the a-hole gets caught.
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November 18th, 2010, 12:27 PM | #17 |
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November 18th, 2010, 12:40 PM | #18 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
The civic driver misjudged the passing time required. Drunk driver in other direction lost control after avoiding civic and running off the road, coming back on and running down a pile of bikes. This could have been avoided a number of different ways, and any of those ways could have minimized the chances of this happening; - Civic driver better judged passing time required - Oncoming driver not drunk, and maintained better control of their car but the controversial, yet nonetheless still factual one - if the bikes rode in such a manner to allow for safer passing.
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November 18th, 2010, 12:57 PM | #19 |
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There were twelve bikes, if riding in a group like I've seen before they would've taken up about as much room as an 18-wheeler. The Honda was reported as doing 80+ when it passed. I don't know if the Honda accelerated to that speed during the pass (improbable) or was already going way too fast when it came up on the riders and just swerved out into oncoming traffic to avoid rear-ending them.
One man's "slow" riding is another man's "obeying the law". It is improper for a lawbreaker to shift the responsibility for the results of breaking the law to those who suffer because of it. It is possible to speed responsibly and safely, but all priority goes to the safety of those who don't. Looking at the accident scene, the shoulders appear paved and wide enough for a car. I think the Dodge swerved too hard to the shoulder and overshot the pavement into the sand because of possible alcohol use or because the Honda's swerve into oncoming traffic didn't give enough time to make a more controlled shift onto the shoulder. I've been in situations where oncoming passers f*cked up this way, it's scary but I've been able to get safely onto the shoulder without losing control of my car. But then again, I don't drive drunk. If I'd been one of the riders who'd witnessed this in my mirror I'd have gone after the Honda, at least to get plates and better driver description. I don't fault their decision to not pursue, just wish it had been different. |
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November 18th, 2010, 12:59 PM | #20 |
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It'd be really nice for the driver to turn him/herself in, but who am I fooling, today's world outlook is grim, especially for those who cause harm to others and don't really care.
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November 18th, 2010, 01:09 PM | #21 |
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/unrelated posts moved to Items Wanted area
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November 21st, 2010, 07:56 AM | #22 |
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Riding in a pack is dangerous!
Even when the pack is doing everything right (legal), disaster looms. I was a patch holder in a club here in south Florida for several years in the 90s.
Been on lots of runs, long and short, with our club and many other local clubs. All Harley clubs, some were family clubs, some support clubs and some 1% clubs. Almost all were dangerous. Almost every run was an accident waiting to happen. A pack (it's individual riders) can be obeying the law but, in my opinion, without military or police style constant training, which nobody does, the members are not prepared for incidents like the one in this thread. In a situation like this one, the rear riders (assist. road captains) should have right off noticed that a car wanted to pass and took pre-discussed and trained for (never done) action. Options would be to signal the pack into a single line and hug the right side of the lane to allow the car to pass or maybe pull off somewhere... every situation is different and calls for the Road Captain and assistants judgment AND the members being trained to respond to signals and commands. Do you think most Harley clubs train and review and prepare for such situations or have the attitude like, "F**k 'em, they can wait!" ? I know the answer to that question. I was there, I was a Road Captain and an assistant RC. And by the way, a strung out pack is a whole lot longer than a semi truck. I've seen a few bad wrecks and a million near misses while riding in packs. Lots of fun and many great memories while doing the club scene as a young and wild biker but..........never again! Riders, in a pack or alone, should never have the "I'm a victim" outlook. Everything that happens on the road comes with the territory. j98 |
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November 21st, 2010, 09:15 AM | #23 |
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In the summer our bicyle club has two rides a week consisting of two to three pacelines--that is where you are "on the wheel" of the rider in front of you. The lead bike goes flat out for 15 min and then goes to the back of the line. It is a beautifully choreographed formation. On bicycles, you can hear a car coming. The last person in the line yells "Car Back" and that gets shouted up the line. The line is already to the far right. Car back is called so that the lead bike does nor go to the left to move into the last position. It is still dangerous. If I ride the MC with others--two or three riders, we allow about ten car lengths between the bikes. We also only ride single file.
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November 22nd, 2010, 07:40 AM | #24 |
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I suck at semantics, and will not play that game...
Last futzed with by FrugalNinja250; November 22nd, 2010 at 11:43 AM. |
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November 22nd, 2010, 10:03 AM | #25 |
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Awful story. My best wishes are with the family of the bikers hurt or killed, and with the other bikers.
As for the other comments, lets not forget that riding a motorcycle is dangerous no matter how you do it, and no matter what precautions you take. There are steps one can take to minimize the danger, but not to eliminate it. Could these riders have done some things differently in order to avoid this tragedy? Maybe, and maybe not. None of us were there, and none of us know the answer to this question. What we do know is the driver of the Honda mis-judged the room he needed to pass, which was the key event in this tragedy. |
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November 22nd, 2010, 10:06 AM | #26 | |
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Quote:
This such an awful tragedy. I wish people would stop and think of the impact that their actions have on others. |
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November 22nd, 2010, 10:15 AM | #27 |
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I'm sorry, but this isn't accurate. Everything that is legal isn't safe, and everything that is safe isn't legal. They are two completely different concepts, that while related, need to be judged separately to analyze just about any situation.
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November 22nd, 2010, 10:36 AM | #28 |
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I suck at semantics, and will not play that game...
Last futzed with by FrugalNinja250; November 22nd, 2010 at 11:44 AM. |
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November 22nd, 2010, 10:49 AM | #29 | |
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EDIT: my reply no longer applies directly, and the thread can likely go on as it was... Carry on, all.....
Quote:
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November 22nd, 2010, 03:03 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
I don't find that a group, riding in formation as this club was doing, to be overly dangerous compared to other ways of riding. For this accident to happen, it took someone to make a bad judgment. While you could argue all day, and point out that the bikers should have pulled over, or rode single file, or rode with a greater space between them etc., in the end, the judgment of the car driver was a far greater cause of this accident than anything the bikers did, and any and all of these other riding techniques may not have prevented the accident. |
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November 22nd, 2010, 03:22 PM | #31 |
ninjette.org sage
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When I ride with a large pack, (soflasportbikes.com) we always have a safety meeting first, everyone is told the route, there are control riders who will coral any cagers that get in the way. Whenever the pack exceeds 30-40 bikes we try to arrange for police escort (some members are po pos) but in a case like this.
There is little they could have done. I feel terrible for guys that saw car coming, and had nowhere to go. RIP P.S. j98sprint are you still in South Florida, would love to ride with some other 250's, my riding group tends to be made up of "big" bikes. |
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November 22nd, 2010, 03:26 PM | #32 | |
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From my perspective, I agree with you 100%. Heck, if we all made the decision to stop riding motorcycles completely, the chances of us being hurt on a motorcycle drop to a verifiable 0%. Everything we do on a bike starting with getting on it increases the risk over baseline, and the choices we make after that continue to affect it in one direction or another. I guess the difference in my mind between a motorcyclist getting pegged by a left-turner, and a motorcyclist getting mowed down in a large pack, is that many motorcyclists see the first case as a known risk and the second case as an unknown risk, that is still up for debate if it exists or not. J98's post lays out exactly why it shouldn't be considered an unknown risk, and we'd be more informed motorcyclists if we at least took it into account and used it to make our own judgments, whatever they are, about our own risk tolerance going forward.
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November 22nd, 2010, 03:28 PM | #33 |
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What does this mean?
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November 22nd, 2010, 03:39 PM | #34 |
ninjette.org sage
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Sweep riders. They box the car, so that the driver becomes aware of the other bikes. Sometimes they'll ride ahead of main group and look for potential trouble. They'll block so everyone can change lanes.
I guess you could call it aggressive sweep riding. It probably won't win any courtesy points from cagers! But then again, it keeps the group safe.
Link to original page on YouTube. |
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November 22nd, 2010, 04:01 PM | #35 | |
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Quote:
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November 22nd, 2010, 08:24 PM | #36 | |
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November 22nd, 2010, 09:45 PM | #37 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Cab
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I think I might have given a wrong impression.
I didn't mean so much aggressive as pre-emptive. They don't ness. try to make the cagers change lanes, they will just make sure the cager sees that there are bikes around. It's common for the sweep riders in groups to hold traffic so everyone can change lanes. Thats pretty routine. It helps if the group can stick together in one large mass. Stragglers I believe are the worst off, cause all the cars will try to move around the group. There is a Sweep rider that always trails so he can see what's going on and talk to the front, but he can't be falling too far back if someone gets caught up in cage traffic. Besides like I've mentioned before South Florida has the absolutely worst traffic in the U.S. Everyone sends their old people here! |
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November 23rd, 2010, 06:08 AM | #38 |
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The Smith System of Driving
From many years of riding motorcycles (almost every single day since the late '70s) and being trained by my father in "The Smith System of Driving" I have found that obeying the rules of the road and employing the 5 points of the Smith System are the best way to stay alive.
Two of those points are, (1) Leave yourself an out, and (2) Expect the unexpected. Your "out" is gone in a pack and on a 2 lane road passing usually is dangerous and that danger should be expected. I'm sorry gang, I feel terrible for those riders and I agree that those car drivers were dead wrong but riding a motorcycle is dangerous and can be unforgiving. Riding in a pack is 10 times more so. I'm not blaming the riders in that pack, just saying they could have been better prepared for the inherently dangerous act of pack riding. If you've never heard of the Smith System of Driving check it out. j98 |
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November 23rd, 2010, 08:27 AM | #39 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
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Quote:
Now this is my opinion, so take it for what it's worth: The biggest threat I see to bikers riding in traffic is that the other vehicles will not see them. I hear of more accidents involving bikes, where a car either pulls out in front of them, or cuts them off somehow. The response from the driver is always "I didn't see him". Riding in a group dramatically decreases this risk. A group of 4 bikes riding together is much more visible than a single bike. But of course, riding in a group does pose some different risks and challenges as this tragedy demonstrates. Just not sure if I agree that it is more dangerous. We can second guess the actions of any rider, post accident. As I said before, every accident is preventable. But I think this kind of talk does not help in a situation where it does appear the group was riding responsibly, and there was a loss of life and injury. Lets all just wish for a speedy recovery for those who were injured. |
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November 23rd, 2010, 08:36 AM | #40 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Scott
Location: DFW TX
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LOL at the comment about the worst traffic. I've lived in many different parts of the country, and in Europe, and everyone complains that they have the worst traffic. But truly, some places are much worse than others. |
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