April 24th, 2011, 12:55 AM | #1 |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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turbo / turbocharger / turbocharging
I searched the forum and the wiki, but the only information I found was pretty much limited to "here's a video of a turbocharged a 250r", cool huh?
Although this thread is primarily speculative[1], we do know that many people won't be riding several weeks during the winter season, which means we have roughly seven months time to search for a practical solution. Under the assumption[2] that our own labor is free, we have the right tools and know how to use them, the first thing we need to do is set two constraints, which I'll (rather arbitrarily) set at $1000 and 33kw. In other words, our goal is to maximize power @ $1000 or minimize cost @33kw or anything in between. I have tried to make all cost guesstimates conservative. Suggested homework for any n00b (like me) wishing to contribute: 1. Theory (it took me ~6 hours to familiarize myself with the subject matter. I had to follow a lot of external links about stuff I didn't know beans about, freshen up my knowledge of the ideal-gas-laws, etc.): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressor_map 2. Thought-experimenting (~1 hour): http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/Mis...s/DaiTurbo.htm 3. Find a problem that has been overlooked and propose a solution! So far I've come to the following conclusions:
[1]Full disclosure: I'm a member of MENSA, so unfortunately I tend enjoy figuring out how to solve a problem much more than actually solving a problem. [2]Eeek! I also have a degree in economics, so I'm weird *and* boring! Go figure. |
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April 24th, 2011, 07:08 PM | #2 |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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intercooler considerations
Rough computation:
According to the calculator (http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/Mis...s/DaiTurbo.htm) at 23psi, an ambient temperature of 25°C and a desired post-intercooler temperature of 40°C (no detonation), we require 90% intercooling, and get a mass-flow of ~0.092kg/s. With the values: 15.0m/s (~30mph), specific weight of ambient air ~1.1kg/m³, efficiency 0.5, I compute that the cross-section of the air intake for cooling would have to be (0.092/(1-0.9)-0.092)/(15.0*1.1*0.5*)m²=0.1m². Not too big, one could even mount two of these. Notes:
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April 25th, 2011, 03:13 PM | #3 |
ModMy250.com
Name: Tri
Location: St, Louis
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The reason why there's a single intercooler and not a twin set up is because you have to have the intercooler facing forward. There's not enough surface area of the face of the bike to mount any such twin intercooler setup.
The other factor you haven't discussed is the problem of the stock components. A carb setup wouldn't work with a turbo efficiently. When the turbo creates pressure, you would need tons of fuel. When it's not making +pressure, all that fuel in a carb setup will cause the engine to run rich. This is primarily why EFI is required for a turbo setup. It's why you will find old carb'ed muscle cars with superchargers and not turbochargers. I can't imagine anyone running 23psi into a 250 engine. I won't say it's not possible, but the chances of the engine surviving more than a single run wouldn't be high. You would need to lower compression to run high boost. If you can reliably make X amount of HP at 12psi and retain the stock compression ratio, that would be easier than having custom pistons made to lower the CR so you can run more boost and make the same power as X @ 12psi.
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April 25th, 2011, 05:01 PM | #4 | |||||
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
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More importantly, from what I've read, the main reason to use a single or a parallel intercooler setup (always!!! - according to one source) is that connecting intercoolers in series results in doubling the loss of boost (which, hopefully, can be traded-off against better cooling). But, I think we'd be within the constraints, even if the compressor generates 12 psi and we lose 8psi in the coolers and we'd be getting 4psi of boost. Note, that I'm not making any claim that this is in any conceivable way optimal if one wishes to generate lots of power. Wrong pronoun! You meant to say 'we', right? Welcome aboard! Quote:
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As a reminder, it's safe to assume that none of the problems we need to address has an obvious solution. Which is exactly what makes it so exciting! Keep in mind that our ingenuity is primarily limited by our willingness to make huge fools of ourselves and I'm willing to bet that your problem-solving abilities are actually much better than you think. Quote:
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April 25th, 2011, 06:44 PM | #5 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Andrew
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April 25th, 2011, 06:52 PM | #6 |
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Unfortunately the bottom end of the EX-250 engine isn't up to the demands your plan will place upon it. It just isn't designed to handle that much horsepower.
Here's a bit of information from the bike's past: There's a man out there named Mike Norman who was known to be an absolute genius with motorcycle engines. He worked for a company called G Force (he may still work for that company, I don't know). Mike Norman at G Force built race motors adhering to production AFM rules, meaning stock exhaust, airbox, and carbs. Even with these limitations Mike's EX-250 engines developed enough horsepower to easily overwhelm the rather fragile EX250 bottom end. After destroying a large number of cranks and bearings, he eventually (nearly) perfected the process. But they were still small bombs waiting to go off. There is an inherent limit to what you can pump through a Ninja 250, and from hundreds, if not thousands, of dyno runs, Mike would tell you that the upper limit is in the high 30s of rear wheel HP. A super/turbo/nuke EX-250 would easily exceed that limit (I noticed one of your estimates had this turbo EX-250 engine making 75kw. Holy crap! That's over 100hp). It should also be noted that the (non-super/turbo/atomic) combination of engine tricks Mike developed for his EX-250 G Force racing engines cost thousands of dollars per unit in parts and machine shop hours to implement, including his super-secret tweaks to the oil system that were necessary just to keep it from grenading right away; it wasn't a simple matter of bolting on a few parts or overboring the engine. |
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April 25th, 2011, 07:04 PM | #7 |
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Boostzombie is talking good sense here and besides that he's also touched on an issue I was thinking about mentioning: If you're interested in tackling something technical on an EX-250 you could create a simple to install, well documented, well integrated fuel injection kit for the bike. That would get the EX-250 community's attention (rather than a one-time stunt like a turbo-intercooled bike).
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April 25th, 2011, 07:27 PM | #8 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
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Running a carbed-turbo vehicle sucks. Ya, there were some factory carb-turbo set ups out there, so it is possible, but really not a good idea. In fact, it is easier to switch to fuel injection and then turbo (experience with a BMW 2002).
Also, if it were the least bit of a good idea someone would have already done it. There are some crazy guys over in other countries that do nothing but high performance-fancy stuff with these bikes. There are also tons of American's with more money than sense. These bikes have limiting factors that just don't make it a feasible idea. 130 width rear tire for example... They aren't super bikes, and they were never meant to be. The engines aren't designed to hold a bunch of power. It's not like strapping a supercharger to a 350, it's more like hooking an air compressor on full blast up to a party balloon. Something has to give. With all this new found horsepower you (we) are going to need a stiffer frame, larger front tire (read wider rim and new forks/front end) and a larger rear tire (read wider rim and wider swingarm). So by the time you get an engine you can boost and all of the ancillary items to keep the bike physically together and stable.... you don't have a Ninja 250 anymore. There are the negatives. Now to address some of the issues... Drag shouldn't be a big deal with an intercooler up front. The bike is small. Bigger bikes do 170mph with no aerodynamic issues. As long as it is sitting in front of the radiator and not hanging off the side of the bike it should be fine. Another problem to worry about it heat soak. Once that intercooler gets heat soaked, say goodbye to your coolant temps. On a side note, the Subaru WRX STi has an intercooler sprayer which works very well. Megasquirt is your best friend. If you do end up running boost, I wouldn't do more than a couple 3 psi. The heads and head bolts aren't exactly the best engineered pieces in the world. The bottom end has already been mentioned. These motors are alot like glorified Briggs and Stratton go-cart motors (which I used to build and race). If you want a cool project, go for it. If you really want to make power out of these motors, there are easier and better ways. Good luck! |
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April 25th, 2011, 08:12 PM | #9 |
The Sportisi Master
Name: Matt
Location: Chico
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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While your numbers are nice. 33kw is much more attainable. A 70+ motor wouldn't last very long and would need the internals built. Realistic cost of the build $3000+
Exhaust, jets, filters, trans bearings, ignition apx $1000 also apx 33hp
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April 25th, 2011, 08:14 PM | #10 |
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I am in the planning stage of a turbo.
Right now I use nitrous.The bike went 119 mph at Maxton last month with just a test shot. I go back in two weeks. I am not some nut job throwing money around or talking smack. This is my idea of a hobby.I have been doing it for four years. I am using nitrous to develop the engine. I gather data on the engine by testing it at the track and the dyno. Then tear the engine down and inspect it .Then move to the next stage. When I am done I plan to use nitrous and a turbo. Strictly for Land speed racing. I have no idea how much power it will make .But this is what I know so far. First... Carb + turbo is no good for my purposes. Because when you boost air through the carb it cannot handle the drastic fuel requirement going from vacuum to boost .It will always be out of tune somewhere. If you try to pull fuel through a turbo and make a wet system. Two problems come up .One is the inter cooler will cause the fuel particles to fall out of suspension.Second is putting an explosive mixture of air and fuel under pressure in a pipe next to my leg is not my thing. The whole engine has to be built for this. I have a set of Carrillo rods custom made .Next is ARP studs that hold the case together and the head and block down.Studs have a much higher strength then bolts. After that its custom pistons and cams, cylinder head and crank work that will change oil clearance and balance. I will use the balance shaft because of the 14500 RPM I want. Then there is the head and special coatings that I am not going into. The main thing is a master machinist to build the engine.This is not some back yard build. As for the system .Micro squirt and a VERY small turbo . The exhaust pulses are very small with the 250 Ninja engine and getting the turbo as close to the head as possible is the first order of business. The inter cooler will be custom made and v shaped to fill in the area behind the front wheel so it will be close to the turbo but not affect the overall aerodynamics of the bike. I want to mount the throttle body on the inlet of the turbo.Then up at the intake manifolds there will be a 500cc plenum. The injectors for the fuel will be in the head and the nitrous injectors will be in the manifolds.I have not gotten compression, boost, timing or any of that down .I will start with a conservative approach and build from there. This is not a street engine at all . It will be made for Bonneville Salt flat and the asphalt tracks on the east coast. I also will need to run it on methanol.As I said this is still in the planning stage things may change . I will run nitrous till October then start building .I plan to spend nine months on the build. Money is no object since I have none. I have paid for Most of the engine already. But the rest will be done bit by bit . |
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April 25th, 2011, 08:14 PM | #11 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
Would you like to be in charge of the abracadabraing? For starters, your budget is $50. It would also be nice if we had a solution to disconnect components quickly. My bicycle has quick-release skewers, I weigh 180lbs. and I've taken curves at 45mph without the wheels falling off. I'm not even implying that this is even an embryo of a solution, but being able to take all the added bits off in 30 sec. would be a rather cool feature, in which case we'd also need an anti-theft gizmo. :-) At this point I will be very honest: one of the reasons I don't even want to consider EFI, is that as soon as I *start* adding something that requires to be controlled by a computer, I'm afraid I'll end up with a bike that has a permanently installed tablet-PC. I'll spend more time writing software to superimpose the temperature of the electro-magnets that control valve-timing over the image of the blind-spot(s) which are monitored by small cameras (as is the rear - bye, bye mirrors! Don't get me started!), than enjoying riding. |
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April 25th, 2011, 08:27 PM | #12 |
The Sportisi Master
Name: Matt
Location: Chico
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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here is the only turbo new gen I know of and its not complete.
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/l...Ninja%20250RT/
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April 25th, 2011, 08:39 PM | #13 | |
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April 25th, 2011, 09:01 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
Do you know what they are doing for a cutch? I am holding for now but up to 60 hp and it will start slipping There is a full finished system in Indonesia. It makes about fifty HP. |
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April 26th, 2011, 02:04 AM | #15 | ||||||
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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@all: big thanks for all the replies
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Keep in mind, that you'll always be able to ride in a way that will exceed the limits of what your motorcycle can do. For example, if you're going to attempt a U-turn with a radius of 30 feet @ 65mph on a ZX-6R you're going to be in much, much more trouble than cruising @ 130mph on a long, empty, straight, smooth, clean street with a turbocharged Ninjette. Quote:
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Programmable Engine Control Now, how cool is that! Unfortunately, there is so much interesting stuff to do and so little time to do it. For example, a Bowling & Grippo MicroSquirt ECU is $250 (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...v22-p-381.html), whereas a tracfone with much more powerful hardware is $10 (http://www.tracfone-orders.com/bpdir...sionId=9428759). Taking the phone apart is free, solder is 2c, electronic parts are $2, putting linux on it is free, writing a driver is free. If you don't rev up the engine 2x long and 1x time short within 10 seconds of ignition, make the engine play Yankee-Doodle-Dandy! Or make flames shoot out of the exhaust, in case you need a lighter! Arrrrgh! The possibilities! Stop teasing me! Back on-topic... I'm having a hard time accurately modeling intercooler behavior. The difficulty is that the compressed air cools gradually, therefore some parts of the intercooler will be cooler than others. We know that there is thermal conduction within the material of the intercooler, i.e. the hotter parts are slightly cooled and the cooler parts are slightly heated, which is why two coolers in series connected by a thermal insulator should provide better cooling, than the same two coolers connected in parallel, at the cost of decreased boost. What we don't know is how a pair intercoolers X by manufacturer Y will behave at Z psi, W cfm and T° - I hate that. Quote:
Also, I don't think you have considered that as a group we might have a big edge over Mike. Not all EX250 engines are created equal, so if the maximum power we can get out of the average EX250 engine is X and the standard variation is Y, (Warning! Gaussian! I assume too much!) we'd expect 1 in ~50 engines to generate at least X+2Y and 1 in ~700 (I think) to generate at least X+3Y. Someone might even own a Goldilocks! Last but not least, I do not think highly of people (even professionals) who like to keep tweaks super-secret. They are protecting a monopoly, which guarantees a suboptimal allocation of resources (sorry about that, but I did mention that I'm a boring economist). Real geniuses are intelligent enough to stay ahead of the curve by coming up with tweak, after tweak, after tweak... If you consider the massive collection of cool DIY-stuff here, individually we might not be geniuses, but the DIY section generates tweak, after tweak, after tweak... |
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April 26th, 2011, 02:30 AM | #16 |
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I regret getting involved in this thread.
It reads like the manic phase of a thoroughly developed bi-polar disorder. |
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April 26th, 2011, 05:40 AM | #17 | ||
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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One argument that makes a turbocharging upgrade more attractive than an EFI upgrade, is that all the other currently competing 250cc models already have stock EFI and it's somewhat likely that sometime in the near future all Ninjettes will have also have stock EFI. Furthermore, it is very likely that no 250cc bike will have a stock turbo.
Consequently, turbo-systems would remain upgrades, whereas EFI-systems would become spare parts. Quote:
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You completely missed the opportunity to imply a dissociative identity disorder with bi-polar and passive-aggressive alter-egos. |
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April 26th, 2011, 06:32 AM | #18 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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Head bolts are going to be weaker than the head. If you were interested in running a lot of boost maybe double up a head gasket??
As for the frame.. do you plan on going in a straight line or doing turns? Have you decided to do efi? If not there are 2 ways to set up a carb-turbo. Blow through and draw through. You will need to decide on which you prefer. oh, and there is nothing wrong with moonlight. In fact I hear werewolves quite prefer it. :-) |
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April 26th, 2011, 07:11 AM | #19 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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I am planning to try the RHB31 they are under 300 dollars. I use Copper head gaskets. I payed the set up charge for 2008 and newer copper headgaskets. So if you call Copper headgaskets .com as for Morty tell him you want a gasket and what thickness you want he will make it and all you pay is for the gasket. R and D charges are like 70 or 80 bucks
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April 26th, 2011, 07:48 AM | #20 |
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The lastest edition of Cycle World has an article about the turbo charged bikes of old.
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April 26th, 2011, 08:13 AM | #21 |
ninjette.org member
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How about this it uses less pipes but cost more
http://www.superpowercharger.com/electric.htm
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April 26th, 2011, 08:31 AM | #22 |
ninjette.org member
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April 26th, 2011, 10:43 AM | #23 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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The smalest system is for a 2 liter engine. I contacted them to ask about using it with a 15 cubic inch motor. Let's see what they say. Thanks for the link 4000 dollars is a lot of money. But if it works that would be the main thing.
Hector are you the the guy I met in York Pa.? |
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April 26th, 2011, 12:02 PM | #24 | |
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April 26th, 2011, 01:22 PM | #25 |
ninjette.org Monkey Spank
Name: Kevin
Location: Illinois
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I wana be in charge of abracadabring......Now, watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat.
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April 26th, 2011, 01:45 PM | #26 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
There is very little information on small turbochargers. I read somewhere that the RHF3 (I think the RHB31 is larger) powered a 650cc Daihatsu (diesel?) engine. 650cc @ 5000 rpm would generate the same airflow as a 250cc @ 13000. Of course, we'd still like to find something smaller, but under our budget constraints that's probably as small as it gets. |
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April 26th, 2011, 02:13 PM | #27 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
1. That actually works? 2. Why wasn't I able to think of that? |
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April 26th, 2011, 02:30 PM | #28 |
ninjette.org dude
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Less talking. More building.
(with video. )
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April 26th, 2011, 03:01 PM | #29 | |
ninjette.org member
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Nope
Quote:
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April 26th, 2011, 05:15 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
http://www.chinese-parts-canada.com/...injection.html the electric supercharger is 3795 to 4500 dollars. http://www.superpowercharger.com/spc...crusher-hv.htm one other thing to keep in mind . Since the 250 ninja is a flat bearing engine you need to use a flat bearing turbo. If you have a ball bearing crank then you use a ball bearing turbo. I could be wrong but that is the impression I got. Still doing research at this point. As for engine ware with nitrous . I have passed about 15 lb of nitrous 20 hp shot through my engine. Only problem so far is the clutch . I fixed that with beefer springs. I did have some engine damage but that was totally my fault . So far this year no problem . |
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April 27th, 2011, 07:06 AM | #31 | ||
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
I'm not convinced that bolting on the turbo as close as possible to the engine is necessarily optimal. While it is true that we are trying to avoid cooling off the air and wish to preserve the pulses, I think it is worthwhile to consider using two straight pipes (with 125cc volume each), before we merge and direct into the turbine. The idea is that we leave enough room for the exhaust pulse to go so that we avoid closing the exhaust valve with hot, compressed exhaust gases still trapped in the chamber. If fear that would aid detonation and decrease the amount of unburnt fuel that can go into the camber the next cycle. Something else ... a KP35 could fit your purposes, maybe better. If you look at the compressor map you can see that at 1.2 bar overpressure (16 PSI) and 0.56l/sec (120bfm) you're splat in the middle of the efficiency island, (maybe ~40-50kw). It's $243 shipped (http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs...olesalers.html) For our <$1000 experiment the KP35 is possibly a little too big. Could be good for a non-aggressively souped-up Ninja 375R? Quote:
Put your pantyhose back on! It's a project for next winter! You'll catch a cold! Just out of curiosity: if the necessity of a group order arises, would you be interested in owning a turbocharger-shaped paperweight, that just might have a motorcycle-related purpose? |
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April 27th, 2011, 08:22 AM | #32 |
ModMy250.com
Name: Tri
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Eric, I'm curious why the bearing in the engine would dictate what kind of bearing a turbo would need?
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April 27th, 2011, 08:35 AM | #33 |
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April 27th, 2011, 09:06 AM | #34 |
Ms. Personality
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I'm pretty sure the only difference is the seals. Ie carbon seal vs not. Then that only matters if you have a draw through setup.
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April 27th, 2011, 10:38 AM | #35 |
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Like I said I am not 100 % sure. But I believe the ball bearing crank engines have different oil pressure and volume than plain bearing cranks.
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April 27th, 2011, 10:44 AM | #36 | |
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Quote:
Now watch me make the Sears Tower................. disappear.
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April 27th, 2011, 11:17 AM | #37 |
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
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Okk I. Made some calls and talked to some people that do this for real. Bottom line. Ask the manufactuer of the turbo the oil pressure requierments of whatever type of turbo you use. If you have to much oil pressure the oil will push past the seal .running oil into the engine. That will cause detonation quick and hole a piston . Not enough oil pressure and the boost can cause the oil to push back because sone ceramic bearings need oilpressure to seal . It is something to check that it all.
Now back to the fun |
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April 27th, 2011, 11:25 AM | #38 | |
ModMy250.com
Name: Tri
Location: St, Louis
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R, 2005 R6 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
In either instance, the same oil pump is used and it doesn't affect the turbo. I'm a noob when it comes to these 250 motors so I don't know much about them. I would suspect that since they are able to rev 2x as high as most cars, the oiling isn't going to be a big issue. The oil capacity may change to include some for the turbo, but I don't see there being an issue from using journal or ball bearing turbos on the 250. The question is how do you get the oil circulating thru the turbo from the oil pump? Does the 250 use a dry or wet sump system?
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April 27th, 2011, 11:27 AM | #39 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Tom
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 13
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My 2 cents...
Most gasoline engines can't handle much more than double their stock horsepower assuming a volumetric efficiency of 70-80% with a maximum volumetric efficiency of about 140-160% before things start to blow and give. The 250 has a volumetric efficiency of 128% which means it probably can't handle much more than another 30% increase in efficiency without doing a complete rebuild of the motor from the ground up. I highly doubt Kawasaki built it any stronger then what they expected it to be used for. Though I 100% believe you can turbo the carbed 250 I 100% believe you will need around 4-6 grand to even come close to the numbers you want. Feasibly on a stock motor I don't see much more than 40whp before your engine blows.
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2008 250ARGHHH.... Factory Pro jet Kit, K&N Pod Filter...more to come. |
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April 27th, 2011, 11:35 AM | #40 | |
ModMy250.com
Name: Tri
Location: St, Louis
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R, 2005 R6 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
If you look in this cutout of a ball bearing turbo you'll notice the compressor side has nothing except a backing plate. When it's assembled, there's a stupid strong snap-ring that holds that in place and keeps oil from entering the intake. The only way oil is going to push past it is if the shaft has lateral play, in which case, the turbo is likely about to give up the ghost.
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