April 16th, 2014, 06:38 PM | #121 |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Hi Cadd,
Not sure if I can help you, but I'll try. According to what you say, your last oil change was only about 200 miles worth of riding and the oil was really black. (is that right?) And you mentioned how it didn't smell too much like gas. Actually, It shouldn't smell like gas at all. If it does, then we all know what's happening to some of your gas and what the unusual cause of your poor mileage is. Somehow, gasoline is ending up past the carbs, past the pistons and into your oil. Someone else mentioned the petcock, and whether it is functioning properly. In other words, when the engine is off, the diaphragm in the petcock should shut off the flow of gas to the carbs. If the diaphragm is bad, then gas can excessively leak into the carbs, past the float needles and "flood" the carbs and let gas leak into the cylinders, and leak past the piston rings into your oil. Which leads me to ask if you have done a compression test lately to see if your rings are bad. Also, if you suspect a weak spark and not getting a good burn from your plugs to ignite the air/fuel mixture, maybe check the coil grounds. Your bike is not that old, however I have had to clean the contact points of the ignition coils (on mid 2000's ninjas) where they bolt to the frame. This is a chassis ground for the coils. There may be some corrosion behind those bolts that is hindering a good spark form the plugs. Of course this may not be the answer to your poor mileage. If your compression is good, and the petcock diaphragm is functioning properly. Then an excessive amount of gasoline is being consumed by the engine, maybe through the main jets. Did you say that your carb jets are stock? No aftermarket jet kits are installed in your carbs? Your situation, and your mileage, is very confusing. Forgive me for not keeping up completely with this post and all the things you have tried. I do have one more thing... If your bike has California emissions on it, pull off one of the vacuum lines going to the black, rectangular box that stores gas tank fumes, and smell it to see if it is strong with gasoline odor. Also, maybe remove the box and turn upside-down to see if gas comes out. If it reeks of gasoline, or gas pours out of it, then we found the problem! One of the vacuum lines from the tank is letting the emissions suck gasoline into that black box! yikes! Sorry, to be so long-winded on the subject. I truly would like to knew just what the hell is wrong with your bike. As I'm sure everyone would like to know. PM me if you need to.... Mike.
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April 19th, 2014, 12:53 PM | #122 | |
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April 19th, 2014, 10:54 PM | #123 | |||||||
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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The main jets are stock. They are clean as a whistle when I inspected them. Quote:
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But the weird thing is.....I no longer smell gasoline in the crankcase. BUT BUT BUT, my oil level is rising. See pictures here. I don't know anymore. I'm about to give up and sell the bike or trade it in or something. I just want to ride..... |
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April 20th, 2014, 10:20 PM | #124 | |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
Location: Tucson, AZ
Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2004/2005 Ninja EX250, VFR750, Shadow ACE750, NC700X Posts: 33
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Quote:
Thanks for the answers! So, your petcock should be okay, your compression CAN be checked at home with a compression gauge, or you can have a shop do it. ($$$) But otherwise compression seems to be good. Your oil no longer smells like gas, but seems to rise in level. No Cali emissions, and no rust sighted on the coils. My only other options for you are these.... 1. Continue to ride, as you have been, and continue to monitor the oil level through the sight glass. (go 2000 miles or more) If you continue to notice and increase in oil level, then SOMETHING is getting in there! If your coolant level is checked good (at the radiator cap) then it's not coolant in the oil. So, only one thing left....gas. 2. After doing that, try shutting the petcock OFF after every ride, just to make sure that fuel is not getting into the carbs when you don't want it to. If you do this petcock method, and notice no more increase in oil level, and you notice an increase in fuel economy, then it's the petcock! I have pre-gen Ninjas, but I would assume that the coils are still mounted up front near the top of the engine. 2 bolts hold a coil to the frame, and that is what you can inspect for any corrosion, behind the bolt heads and where the coil attaches to the frame. However, I think the coil issue is in no way affecting your missing gas/increased oil level problems. Give that a shot......
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April 21st, 2014, 12:08 PM | #125 | |
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April 21st, 2014, 12:38 PM | #126 |
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April 21st, 2014, 01:14 PM | #127 |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Well, that DOES suck!
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April 21st, 2014, 04:47 PM | #128 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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I may be onto something!!! Need you guys for advice.
I sprayed carb cleaner onto the carb boots (all 4 boots). Idle set to 1,400 - 1,500 rpm for this test (after a 50 mile ride today). The boots connecting to the airbox had no response to the carb cleaner. The boots connecting the carbs to the motor had immediate response! I read in and her post that rpm should rise, correct? Mine is doing the exact opposite!!! When I sprayed on the left boot, rpm dropped below 1,000rpm and almost stalled out. When I sprayed on the right boot, rpm dropped, but not as dramatic. What does the dropping rpm mean?!?! Edit: here's the video. http://youtu.be/BBX-Gsksjd8 |
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April 21st, 2014, 05:04 PM | #129 |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Means your carb boots are not seated on the carbs good also some carb/throttle body cleaners will actually break down gas and cause the engine to stall. After watching your video you were basically spraying carb cleaner directly in the engine bypassing the carb throat.
Starting fluid (which is basically ether) would have caused the rpms to rise. |
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April 21st, 2014, 05:47 PM | #130 | ||
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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Do you think the loose boots is what's causing my poor mileage? I guess I'll try to tighten the boots down some more. If that doesn't work, I guess it's time for replacement boots? Jammer, the petcock is fine. It's currently off the bike and not a single drip. As others mentioned, there's no "off" position in the new gens. (see pic) And........my oil level increased yet again (after another 100 miles on the bike). Note: In the video, I've only ridden 100 miles since my last fill up. Look at the gas gauge. Yes yes yes. I know it's not the most accurate. But as a rough guide, it shows I have 1/4 tank left after 100 miles of riding. I'll probably get another 30 - 40 miles before I'm bone dry. |
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April 21st, 2014, 06:08 PM | #131 | ||
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
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Not entirely. If anything it would run a tad leaner, which in turn you most likely make up for it by upping the idle speed or turning the throttle a little more. Not unless your boots are in terrible shape, there may be no need to replace them. There are a whole lot of older bikes with much older boots than yours, that still work. |
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April 21st, 2014, 06:35 PM | #132 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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Alright. If I tighten the boots and they are fully sealed and I still get horrible gas mileage.....AND my oil level keeps increasing, I guess that would mean I have a much larger problem at hand!!!
If I can't find a fix, do you think a local mechanic can easily diagnosis it and fix it quickly? Or do you think he'll go through the same process we went through already? If I can't fix it, I think I'll just trade it in at the dealership and pick up a used 300 instead. Although it doesn't affect performance, it just bothers me that I know something's not running 100% and I we can't fix it. Do you think my choke mechanism on the carb is screwed up? Meaning, with the choke off, it somehow still chokes the bike making it run rich? Is there a way to check the choke mechanism to make sure it's functioning properly? |
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April 21st, 2014, 06:45 PM | #133 |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
Location: Tucson, AZ
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If your boots had a good seal, then there would be NO effect when you sprayed carb cleaner/starter fluid on them. So, yes, your left side carb-to-engine boot is loose/cracked.
Now, while watching the video, I noticed that it looks like the engine RPM stalls when you sprayed the fluid, but it looked like the spray was more directed towards the vacuum hoses on the carb, and not the boot itself. Also, when you sprayed the front boot on the RIGHT side of the bike, you sprayed in such a fashion as to where you could have been spraying more OVER the front right boot and more ONTO the front left boot. Is that making sense? So, for now, definitely inspect BOTH front boots. Like DaBlue1 mentioned, boots shouldn't go "bad" or crack after such a short period of time. I still had 90's boots in my parts bin that were used on a friends pre-gen that worked just fine. Your bike had a previous owner ( right?) and there's no telling what happened to the bike or these boots while the bike was in his possession. Now, the subject of your oil level. If the actual level is increasing then SOMETHING IS GETTING IN THERE! I would drain some, or ALL, of the oil into a clean pan and inspect it. Smell like gas? Have a different color than golden? Have chunks of stuff floating in it? Let us know......
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April 21st, 2014, 06:58 PM | #134 | |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
Location: Tucson, AZ
Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2004/2005 Ninja EX250, VFR750, Shadow ACE750, NC700X Posts: 33
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I thought you already checked that. ??? That would possibly explain it, but I'm still not sure on the oil level. If it was gasoline in your oil, then the gas has to be getting past the float valves, rushing past the main jets (our being sucked into the starting enrichener circuit to bypass the jets) and pour directly into the front boots. That couldn't happen while the engine is running, though. The engine would burn just about any amount of extra fuel from the SE circuit, but the engine would run like **** during the process.
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April 21st, 2014, 07:01 PM | #135 |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
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I'm starting to wonder if you shouldn't swap carbs with a friend's new-gen and ride a tankful through them. If mileage improves, and oil level doesn't increase, then we narrowed it down to YOUR carbs, at least.
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April 21st, 2014, 07:07 PM | #136 |
Que Buenos Son!!!
Name: Ryan
Location: Grovetucky, OH
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I was just about to say the same thing. It's worth a shot.
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April 21st, 2014, 07:13 PM | #137 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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I'm not sure who the first owner was. It was either a bike that was unsold from the dealer....or the first owner traded it in at the dealer. The 2nd owner purchased the bike from a dealer here in NJ (The Cycle Exchange in Andover, NJ). He purchased the bike in June 2013. The bike had 400 miles on the odometer at that time (I have the receipt). He paid $3,200 for the bike. The OTD price was $3,567 (including taxes and all the fees). He rode it from June 2013 until the winter and put on approx 550 miles....I purchased it in January 2014 with 950 miles on the odometer. I checked carfax before purchasing. There was ZERO history on the bike. It just showed in July 2010, the registration was updated when the owner moved the bike to a new location (Linden, NJ). |
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April 21st, 2014, 07:18 PM | #138 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
http://youtu.be/jlaJi9wnYhM |
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April 21st, 2014, 07:21 PM | #139 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I don't have any friends that ride a new gen. I guess I can just buy a used carb off ebay to do this test if I can't figure it out. |
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April 21st, 2014, 07:46 PM | #140 | |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
Location: Tucson, AZ
Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2004/2005 Ninja EX250, VFR750, Shadow ACE750, NC700X Posts: 33
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I wasn't wanting you to swap out the oil! LOL! I'm just saying to drop some in a clean pan to inspect it for color, smell, junk floating in it. If it's good, then pour it back in. Or, you could drain ALL of the oil in a clean pan, then measure the amount to see if you do have around 1.9L. (2 qt.) This is how you can determine if you have an excess of "whatever" in the oil and in your crankcase. A thought occurred.... have you inspected the airbox lately? There should be a breather hose that connects the air filter box to the top of the crankcase. Is there any gas in there? Smell like gas?
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April 21st, 2014, 08:40 PM | #141 | |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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Quote:
I've been sniffing hoses left and right! The hose that's connected to the left side of the tank that leads to the ground (no gas smell). Then there's a hose from the middle of the two carbs that leads to the top of the battery that leads to nothing (no gas smell) There's two hoses that's connected to the petcock. The smaller one...no gas smell. |
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April 22nd, 2014, 06:55 AM | #142 | |||
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
If your oil level keeps increasing to the point where it gets above the max fill line in the crankcase, you have a problem. If there is no evidence of any other fluids in your oil such as gas, coolant or water you have Gremlins. Oil does not magically appear nor does the engine make it increase, however warmer ambient and engine temps can make oil a little thinner and flow better, therefore you may see some oil be released from the head, oil filter and any other place where oil can sit and pool inside the engine. There is also a small amount of expansion of oil as it's temp increases. As long as you put the right amount of oil in the bike the first time, I would not worry about the micro fluctuation in the oil level. Also do not expect to drain out the exact same amount of oil that you put in either. Quote:
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Using it properly would give you an indication if something was amiss with it. You said you didn't need the choke, so you did not use it (on a stock bike, which is really rare especially when it's cold out). Even though you can see it move when you move the cable it may not be closing all the way and need adjustment to do so. Fuel mixture trouble could result if the choke plunger does not seat properly in its rest position after the choke lever is returned to the off position. Something you may want to check again. see attachment. Last futzed with by DaBlue1; April 22nd, 2014 at 08:26 AM. |
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April 22nd, 2014, 10:59 AM | #143 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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I just ordered an oil analysis kit. Once it arrives, I'll drain the oil and send in a sample. I'll post the results once I get them.
I'll tighten the boots tonight and re-test again with carb cleaner. You are correct. I never needed the choke....even when I rode when it was below freezing. If I continues to get horrible gas mileage, I'll take the carbs out again and bring it to a shop to let them take a look at it (in case I missed anything). I'll keep you guys updated. PS - one of the reason why gas mileage increased is because I modified my riding. When I got 41mpg (my highest), I was shifting at 6k and cruising around d 4k-5k. My last fill up was 38mpg. I shifted at 7k nd cruised around 6k. Ideally, I like cruising around 7k and shift at 8 or 9k. But I'll get in the mid - high 30 range when I do that =( |
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April 22nd, 2014, 11:23 AM | #144 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Brian
Location: Orange County, CA
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IMO, the red flag I see here is the fact that you don't need choke when starting even below freezing. Even at 50F my engine will sometimes stall without choke.
I've been following this thread and am very curious as to the cause. Kudos to Cadd for your diligence. |
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April 22nd, 2014, 01:04 PM | #145 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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If I ever get it fixed, I'm never going to sell this bike! Maybe I'll let it go for $20k. But too much sentimental value attached to it already.
Dablue, thx for that attachment. |
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April 22nd, 2014, 07:13 PM | #146 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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@Jammerkiller - is this the hose you were referring to that connects the bottom of the airbox (left side of bike) to the crankcase? If so, it smells strongly of gasoline! Is it supposed to?
Also, does anyone know what that clear rubber thing is that's at the bottom of the airbox? (left side of bike). The air filter does NOT smell like gasoline at all |
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April 22nd, 2014, 07:37 PM | #147 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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April 22nd, 2014, 08:22 PM | #148 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
The clear cap is a drain plug to drain oil or water or gas that may accumulate in the airbox. |
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April 22nd, 2014, 08:25 PM | #149 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
What you really want to do with the starting fluid is check for leaks around the carb boots with the airbox all buttoned up. |
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April 22nd, 2014, 08:39 PM | #150 |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Also make sure the clamps and boots are on correctly.
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April 22nd, 2014, 08:46 PM | #151 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
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Go ahead and remove the KLEEN air system off and plug up the lines.
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April 22nd, 2014, 09:49 PM | #152 | |||
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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Quote:
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Thx for the PDF. When I re-installed the carbs a few weeks ago, I triple checked to make sure HEAD was pointed towards the motor and CARB was pointing to the carbs. Quote:
However, I'm not having any luck....so maybe I'll take off the KLEEN air system if I can't come up with anything. |
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April 22nd, 2014, 10:14 PM | #153 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
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https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9948
The system just helps lean out the mixture by introducing exhaust fumes back into the airbox. I hear you on keeping it simple. Vacuum hoses connected properly? Did you drain the airbox by removing the clear cap?
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April 23rd, 2014, 06:52 AM | #154 |
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
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Which vacuum hose should I look at? The one going to the petcock?
No. I didn't realize you can do that. Do I just pull it off by hand? Would anyone be willing to experiment? If you're willing to, would you please spray some carb cleaner or starting fluid into the airbox while the bike is idling and let me know the effect it has. I just want to see if it stalls out like my bike. |
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April 23rd, 2014, 07:01 AM | #155 | |
lurking about........
Name: Mike
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Can you verify that your vacuum lines are hooked up correctly by comparing to a stock pic or by the service manual, etc.?
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April 23rd, 2014, 07:25 AM | #156 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
If your choke is not adjusted properly and already causing a rich condition at idle speed, adding ether may cause it to be even richer and stall. Some starting fluid instruction say not to use on a running engine, however a short burst with the engine speed up will not hurt it. You've done your test on your boots and found you have no more leaks. I would move on to correctly adjusting the choke lever. |
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April 23rd, 2014, 09:44 AM | #157 | ||
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Dablue1 mentioned that the smell should be ok since I don't smell any gasoline in the airbox by the filter? Conflicting info here Quote:
Do you think I need to pull the carbs out again to look at the inside to see if the choke is functioning properly? I don't even know how to determine that. By the way, how does the choke work for our carbs? Does it limit the flow of air? Or does it increase gas? Also, I started the bike (cold bike) with full choke. The rpms started rising to 5k and stayed there. When I dialed the choke lever back, rpms went back down to proper idle. |
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April 23rd, 2014, 10:59 AM | #158 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Sounds like your choke is doing what it's suppose to do although it's kind of high (more likely contributed to the mixture screws being set @ 2.5 turns out) Other than that how does the bike ride? It should do better now that you have no leaks in the carb boots. |
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April 23rd, 2014, 11:07 AM | #159 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Since you have carb cleaner, disconnect the crankcase breather hose and remove the drain plug cap from the airbox and spray carb cleaner inside the airbox to remove any old oil or dirt which may have settled inside the airbox. Also clean the cap and breather hose. |
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April 23rd, 2014, 02:53 PM | #160 | ||
cadd cadd cadd
Name: Cadd
Location: 41°21'13.1"N, 74°41'37.4"W
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): 300 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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How do I clean the breather hose? Remove the hose completely and spray carb cleaner inside? Or use another cleaner such as diesel fuel? |
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