November 25th, 2015, 08:29 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mauricio
Location: Mexico City
Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250R Posts: 84
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Spark plugs Questions
Hello everyone,
My Ninja started to do something weird. (6500 Miles and stock) After arriving home yesterday, while I was opening the gate, the RPM's got lower and lower and the bike died. Engine sound was like if only one cylinder was working. It was a little hard to started it again but it did start. After revving a little it keep the idle at 1350 but after a minute or so it died again the same way. Today I removed the Spark plugs and found they are CR9E and one of them looked wet right after it was removed (cylinder 1). Attached is a picture of the plugs. on the left is the one of cylinder 1. I am going to replace the plugs My Questions: 1. Should I use CR9E or CR8E?? 2. Are plugs so dark due to the number or am I running rich?? 3. Is the idle problem spark plug related or should I look for something else?? 4. Gaps is .033, is this OK? Thanks in advance for your kind help. Last futzed with by MauR; November 25th, 2015 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Complete the post |
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November 25th, 2015, 08:39 PM | #2 |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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1 + 4) Recommended:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Changin...rands_to_avoid 2) That carburetor is running rich. 3) Spark plug failed due to bridges to electricity's path that the accumulated carbon forms, making spark fail or stop jumping. Bonus information: http://www.dansmc.com/sparkplugs1.htm http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/sp...s_catalog.html Welcome, Mauricio !!!
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November 25th, 2015, 08:46 PM | #3 |
sammich maker
Name: snot
Location: West Ohio - in the kitchen
Join Date: Feb 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 white 300, 09 KLX 250 SF, 09 thunder blue 250(traded) Posts: A lot.
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https://www.brocksperformance.com/VZ...0035+C450.aspx Last futzed with by snot; November 25th, 2015 at 09:13 PM. Reason: moto was faster... |
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November 25th, 2015, 08:55 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mauricio
Location: Mexico City
Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250R Posts: 84
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Thank you so Much!!!
Every thing is clear now!!! MotoFool: 1. The first link states CR8HSA, is this number for pregen 250?? or what is the difference with CR8E?? 2. Do you think that with this carburettors I can remove the snorkel safely and do no shimming?? Snot: I can't see that link, seems to be down. Thanks again!!! |
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November 25th, 2015, 09:13 PM | #5 |
sammich maker
Name: snot
Location: West Ohio - in the kitchen
Join Date: Feb 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2013 white 300, 09 KLX 250 SF, 09 thunder blue 250(traded) Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '15
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https://www.brocksperformance.com/VZ...0035+C450.aspx |
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November 26th, 2015, 07:11 AM | #6 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Looking at your location (Mexico City Mexico?), your elevation is going to be over 7,000 ft ASL. For a bike with stock carb adjustments/jetting, you will see rich looking plugs and the bike will run rich. Add in a dirty filter and you will get an ill running bike @ idle speed. Also avg temps can be a factor. Look at the basic things first. Better burning plugs (Iridium CR8EIX) and a better breathing air filter (most aftermarket filters). Removal of the snorkel may work also. If that does bring up your performance any, then rejetting to a smaller than stock #98 main jet, is in order. |
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2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
November 26th, 2015, 08:07 AM | #7 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
The difference is in the thread length: letter H stands for 12.7 mm, while E stands for 19 mm. S stands for copper core center electrode (not pure copper, but special nickel-steel alloy). IX stands for iridium core center electrode (also an alloy). The number 8 is the heat range, which in your particular case of current rich mix, and if modifications to the snorkel are not sufficient, could be safely elevated to 7 (hotter) to help with electrodes fouling. http://www.ngk.com.au/spark-plugs/pr...mbering-system 2) Yes, you may need more air in the mix. If so, the properly operating carburetor may be the one with the black plug, while the plug with proper color may be fed by a carb with certain restriction in the jets 9due to fuel deposits or dirt) that make the mix leaner (which happens to be correct for your altitude). You are welcome
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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November 26th, 2015, 03:06 PM | #8 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mauricio
Location: Mexico City
Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250R Posts: 84
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Thanks a lot to everyone!!!!
I already have the CR8E spark plugs (IX not available) and I'll put them in tonight and see if this fix the problem. While in there I'll remove the snorkel and clean the air filter. Do you consider I should sync the carbs soon or am I ok as they are?? |
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November 26th, 2015, 07:29 PM | #9 | |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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NGK (7669) CR8HIX Iridium IX Spark Plug, Pack of 1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HDF852..._Pb8vwb8QH5SGD
Did you renew the HT leads, and disassemble the caps? Make sure you disassemble the caps, and clean them, and yes the caps get cruddy. Here my write-up, Quote:
Here's some pictures that might be helpful. I took these when I replaced the wires themselves, as it was a good time for a write-up, and the wires were OEM from 1998. Wires are just 7mm copper core, with clear silicone jacket Okay don't touch the carburetor synchronization screw!!! And here's why, You can sync with the carbs in hand. Back the idle adjustment off to close that carb then match the second carb to it with the sync screw. You can then turn the idle adjustment up while using a thin feeler gauge (maybe .002") between the throttle plate and the throttle bore, adjust to just fit, and then check the second one and adjust to match. If you have good feel for this it will run fine once installed. It would do folks well to take a minute to review and understand what a sync tool does, how it works. And take another minute to look at the carb linkage and sync adjustments available to fix irregularities that might occur. It can help take some of the mystery out of this as well as stop unnecessary carb sync screwups. Meaning, that the carbs were right once, the butterflies were matched and it performed well, but then changed. Undecided And the problem somehow occurred in the butterfly direct shafts, or the sync screw turned or wore that pad that it rests on, or the carburetor pairing/ bridging brackets twisted in relation to each other, and enough so that the butterflies no longer operated in sync, such that performance noticeably suffered. And a fix will be accomplished by changing the butterfly position, the only thing the sync adjustment does. Hmmm. Really? Undecided Meanwhile, the tool measures vacuum at each individual runner. That's all it does, how it works. And vacuum is effected by a huge list of things, butterfly position being only one of them, and the only one addressed with that tool while turning those sync screws. The rest of that list includes, valve adjustment, jetting, float level, compression differences between cylinders caused by wear as well as factory CC differences in the head, intake runner, as well as flow by port variations, etc. Variations in cams, wear or factory tolerance. Then there's the potential big one, pilot jets and pilot screw mixture settings. All of those effect the vacuum and will be read by the sync tool, accurately identifyng the difference that exists, and with the only adjustment being used to "correct" the problem, move the butterfly relationship, one to the next. It's that clear understanding that has me of the opinion and long time practice to not touch the sync screws on a set of carbs that were right once and were never dismantled from the rack. And jet cleaning as well as float needle changing doesn't require that they be dismantled. And further, if I DID dismantle a set of carbs, I just matched the butterflies on the bench at assembly, using a feeler gauge, and then never touched them again, never gave them another thought. That method, properly executed, will have THAT portion of the complete equation, balanced flow to each cylinder in a multi-cylinder/ carb application due to butterfly position, satisfied entirely adequately. And in fact, it has worked for me every time I've done it on every bike (as well as individual runner/ butterfly V-8 intakes, all eight) that I've ever owned or any that I've fixed for others. And the times I fixed for others was usually after an attempt by others to sync the carbs, chasing a problem, or sometimes not even chasing a problem, but one they created wth a sync tool, chasing a problem from that list, that was never a butterfly position change problem. Those linkages are so direct and simple that they don't know how to screw themselves up. Not enough to care about. I'm sure this will start a lot of controversy so I won't argue it, just offering it for those who understand the whole picture that I outlined and might make good use of it. It is what I've done, on every engine I ever worked on, including blue printed racing engines as well as regular old, high mileage street stuff. I've had at least four, four cylinder bikes with over 100,000 miles that ran quite well, the whole time, and never had a carb sync performed. When they did finally get a total disassembly, this is how I set them up, on the bench. Over the years I've straightened out at least a half dozen messed up ones, probably more, and on the bench, after fixing the original problem which was fouled pilot jets. I only posted this because it seems like its coming up fairly often, especially with problems from a sync gone bad. One I would suggest was never a sync problem to begin with. A big or sudden change in performance is NEVER a sync problem. NEVER. Remember that. Cool If there is a problem, and you connect the gauges? YES, there will definitely be an imbalance indicated. But because that hole has a problem that is from the rest of the list. A bad plug, a plugged pilot jet, a screwed up float, a bad valve or setting, etc. Every one of them effecting the vacuum in the intake but NOT from a sudden move of a butterfly position, a sync adjustment.
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1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
November 26th, 2015, 08:18 PM | #10 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mauricio
Location: Mexico City
Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250R Posts: 84
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Thanks a lot Ghost!!!
I'll leave the carbs alone!!! Already replaced the plugs and the bike is running great again! The only thing I'm thinking about is remove the snorkel... maybe this weekend |
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November 26th, 2015, 09:32 PM | #11 | |||
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I strongly recommend that you service the spark plug caps, to eliminate another possible cause, and I also recommend this is done to make sure the caps are 100% right, as they due cause problems as I stated above. I recently did the CoPs modification to eliminate the caps, and they produce a better spark and clean things up nicely. Here's my write-up, https://www.ninjette.org/forums/blog.php?b=8379 To address the altitude issue, here is the official Kawasaki service Quote:
Quote:
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November 27th, 2015, 05:09 PM | #12 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
A simple check for corrosion and a little dielectric grease (petroleum jelly) inside the plug boot will help with any corrosion or potential electrical leaks. No need of doing more work than necessary. |
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1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
November 27th, 2015, 07:23 PM | #13 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mauricio
Location: Mexico City
Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250R Posts: 84
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Thanks DaBlue1, It is 2009. Most of those miles are from Mexico City traffic... Really slow driving
The wires are different to those on the images and mine are in very good shape. I'm thinking on wait for A few hundred miles an check plugs to try to see how carbs are before doing anything to them. Thanks Ghostt, is that write up good for new gen ninjas??? My coils are ok but could be a good upgrade when I need to replace them |
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November 28th, 2015, 12:11 AM | #14 | |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
The CoPs modification should work the same, I've I've seen it done on a lot of bikes that use separate coils. What I do know is that the OEM set-up on the Ninjette, as well as the EX500 are weak, compared to the CoPs, and you can increase the gap to better utilize the hotter spark. I've been running the CoPs modification for this past season, and no ill effects as of yet.
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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November 29th, 2015, 08:05 PM | #15 | |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
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I run CoP from Takai and my plugs have no center electrode
Quote:
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November 29th, 2015, 08:38 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mauricio
Location: Mexico City
Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250R Posts: 84
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CoPs mod is definitely on my ToDo list
Thanks |
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November 30th, 2015, 08:34 AM | #17 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Bob
Location: NY
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 730
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Interesting .... What is involved in the conversion and what benefits can I expect ?
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November 30th, 2015, 06:58 PM | #18 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
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Here are my instructions for the 500. The 250 might be slightly different, but this should give you the basic idea.
Quote:
Here are some pics from my 500. Old: New: Finished product: Normally the coil would be bolted to the frame using the bolts at the top, so you couldn't even see that area. Combined with removal of the emissions stuff on top, it's much easier to work around that part of the bike.
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November 30th, 2015, 07:41 PM | #19 | |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Kawasaki ZX Ignition Coil Pack modification.
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November 30th, 2015, 07:45 PM | #20 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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Supporting the CoPs
Update: Some concerns about supporting the CoPs has come up, so I decided to look into this. The fix is simple, remove the rubber tops from the OEM plug caps, and install them on the CoPs. You will need to remove the small rubber ring on the top of the CoPs, and slide the OEM rubber on, after that your all set.
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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November 30th, 2015, 08:43 PM | #21 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Bob
Location: NY
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 730
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Damn good info here
Thanks !
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2010 Red Ninja 250 2009 Black Ninja 250 -If you ride like lightning,you're gonna crash like thunder- |
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December 1st, 2015, 09:52 AM | #23 | |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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December 2nd, 2015, 04:47 AM | #24 |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot.
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A larger gap will make a larger spark, which should result in a better burn in the cylinder. However, a larger gap is also harder to arc across, so you're more likely to get misfires. The idea is to make it as big as possible without causing problems.
FOG has stated that the EX500's stock ignition system was known to have spark issues at the top end. I didn't personally notice any issues on my street bike, but with the CoPs and Iridium plugs I was able to open the gap up to .032" (stock is .024-.028") without creating any noticeable problems, and it should give me a better spark. Even if the performance is 100% identical to stock, simply cleaning things up on top of the engine makes it worth doing in my eyes.
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