July 9th, 2016, 12:35 AM | #1 |
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Cylinder 2 Misfiring / Not firing / Unpredictable
The muffler on CYL #2 would act weird and the exhaust is somewhat weak.
I used a hacksaw to remove both mufflers and i only have exhaust manifold to monitor my exhaust closely , when i fire the bike it would start normally as it should , around 2500 rpm is the sweet spot both, cylinders will fire but #2 is rough but the pulse is strong so i dont consider loose compression or valves , #1 is very consistent like a heartbeat , it never miss a beat , while #2 is unpredictable when i give throttle it will respond with no misfire, when i reduce the rpm to 1500 via the rpm screw , i cant do it it will either: 1. stay on 2500 rpm 2.misfire on #2 and the rpm will swing 1500-2000-2500 rpm 3. too much turn on the rpm screw kills the cyl #2 (trying to make it idle at 1500rpm) i put my hands on the exhaust manifold and the pulse is very weak , but when i rev it goes back to life and the rpm will go, also Cyl #1 exhaust manifold is hotter than #2 . 4. when cyl #2 died , about 15 seconds and cyl #1 will die also IF I DONT GIVE IT GAS. IF I GIVE IT GAS RPM WILL RISE TO 2500 -2000(CYL#2 SPUTTERING)-1500 BACK ON CYL#1 ONLY(CYL#2 DIES) . I can say its misfiring/not firing because the pulse on the cyl#2 exhaust manifold is weak and i can say its firing because the pulse is strong . Spark plug reading: Ignition Coils #1 coil is mitsubishi not stock #2 coil is stock from 1987 i think i have a single carburetor with Y intake manifold ruled out compression/valves/ring issues (when i rev it , the exhaust pulse on cyl#2 is strong and there are not much smoke) ruled out carburetor issues because #1 is firing very consistent and alive , if its a carburetor issue both cylinders would crap out. Suspected problems: Ignition Coils Electrical Grounds? Pulser Coil? Rectifier(not stock KYMCO)? CDI Can i swap the ignition coils to test it ? #2 for #1 , and #1 for #2? Last futzed with by juliusmichaelhonrada; July 9th, 2016 at 02:15 AM. |
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July 9th, 2016, 03:59 AM | #2 | |
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Name: Tom
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Have you cleaned or replaced the high tension leads. I think it's @Ghostt that has a good tutorial on it around here somewhere. Found it, about halfway down the page in this thread. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=264033 |
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July 9th, 2016, 04:03 AM | #3 | |
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My HT leads , nahh lol , the wires are mutilated , the leads are mutilated , its all from a different bike , even the coils are different to each other lol. Im keeping what will work , and replace what wont work , im on a tight budget for now |
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July 9th, 2016, 02:52 PM | #4 | |
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I'm not sure how much used parts from bigger bikes cost there, but if you can get the parts cheap enough (like we do over here), the CoP mod will replace a lot of the ignition parts and simplify things. You should figure out what's wrong with the bike first, but the CoP setup might be a good way to get a lof of working ignition parts simply.
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July 9th, 2016, 04:30 PM | #5 | |
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Can i use this http://www.lazada.com.ph/ris-premium...l-4409906.html its a COP for jaguar S-type car ,and its cheap |
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July 9th, 2016, 04:38 PM | #6 |
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na it wont work , cars uses 24 volts
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July 9th, 2016, 06:35 PM | #7 |
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I swapped the coils , still cyl #2 is misfiring / dying , on my cdi there is 1 terminal which had a pin but i have no wires going into it, i checked the schematics of the 1987-1994 ninja and i see there should be 4 wires coming out from the pickup coils, mine only have 3 yellow wires, and 2 wire for the rectifier , but none of them seems modified / replaced , they even have terminal blocks , 3 pin and 2 pin. i dont know whats that missing wire should be going into that cdi
The wires coming from the bottom of my stator cover , that is the pickup coil? Theres only 3 yellow(3 for pickup coil) and yellow, black/yellow (2 for rectifier) . This schematic have different colors , but the single radiator fan pin / ignition switch matches my bike . |
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July 9th, 2016, 07:03 PM | #8 |
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ok i will ignore the cdi for now , its highly unlikely because i am getting spark which means its connected, but maybe theres a loose connection or something , what will i do now is to remove the harness cover to expose all the wires going from the kill switch to the ignition coil that red wire
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July 9th, 2016, 08:01 PM | #9 |
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Three yellows should go to the rectifier. Three phase AC in, DC out of the rectifier. Each yellow wire is an AC phase. That is universal across all brands of motorcycles. I'd be checking again as I'm positive the three yellow wires aren't your pickup.
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July 9th, 2016, 08:04 PM | #10 |
Vintage Screwball
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Also, any time I see a lead with electrical tape, it is immediately suspect. If I remember from other posts of yours, that lead was resting on the head of a bolt and it had almost worn through, or had worn through.
Without proper troubleshooting and parts replacement, you're just throwing things at it hoping it will work. Start with a new spark plug and high tension lead. It's not your pickup coil or the CDI.
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July 9th, 2016, 08:19 PM | #11 |
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i tried swapping the spark plugs , and coils together and the problem didnt switch to cylinder #1 its always on #2
everything looks good. i think the stator is the 3 yellow wire , and the pickup coil is 1 yellow 1 black/white not black/yellow. This is what the wiring on my ignition coil looks like.. Ignition key yellow going to the kill switch then out of the kill switch is 1 red wire , which then meets near the cdi , 2 going to ignition coils , 1 going to cdi, its sandwiched with a small copper thing that binds 4 of the red wires together i think its perfectly working , the kill switch works , it supplies positive power to the coils perfectly. The harness seems stock and had not been modified, even the blue tape that covers the wires thats coupled with a copper thang is still there from 1980's quite odd to touch something thats older than me. I'll be checking the negative wires next , the black and green that goes to the ignition coil |
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July 9th, 2016, 08:37 PM | #12 | |
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July 9th, 2016, 09:29 PM | #13 |
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Ok , checked all the wires , my harness is completely naked now .
Black , green , red wires from ignition coil going to the cdi are all ok with no damage and no alteration of any kind or history thereof. Pickup coil looks perfect, no damage no alteration of any sort. This diagram matches my bike, each and every color and connections are the same. |
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July 9th, 2016, 09:39 PM | #14 |
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OK guys , i decided i will tear down the engine to see how the valves are doing and check the piston / rings too , the P.O is not saying anything and i dont expect he will .
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July 9th, 2016, 11:03 PM | #15 | ||
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I don't think the testing has proven it's not the igniter. There could still be something wrong with it, causing spark problems on #2 (assuming that poor spark is the reason for the misfire). Quote:
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July 9th, 2016, 11:37 PM | #16 | |
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Could it be that a valve is sticking because its not running for a long long time? I badly want to open that head and clean the valve guides and piston rings with penetrating oil and a brush Maybe this will help , some more information when i got this bike , the P.O timed the camshaft relative to the 1T mark of the flywheel instead of 2T , could it be possible that #2 valves got hit by a piston because of the wrong timing? I already fixed the timing and the valve clearances btw Also when i was adjusting the valve clearance and i was turning the engine with a ratchet in the flywheel, i can hear a hissing sound on compression stroke in 2T mark this is with both spark plugs intact , is this a compression leak? |
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July 10th, 2016, 12:08 AM | #17 |
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Anyone can give me a guide on disassembling the head step by step , and also what to look for , how to tell bad valves/seat/guides/springs/camshaft lobe , and piston rings?
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July 10th, 2016, 02:57 AM | #18 |
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So i went and asked a mechanic how much if i would let him open the engine and check up whats wrong, he said it'll be $63 (3,000 pesos) .
This is the reason why i prefer doing everything on my own , if i can set the timing correctly , set the valve clearances i dont see any reason why i would need a mechanic |
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July 10th, 2016, 05:27 AM | #19 |
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even a manual will help , i cant find any free version , its all very expensive
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July 10th, 2016, 09:02 AM | #20 | |
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You will waste more money and time. Can you live with #2 failing at low rpm's? I could ......... and would keep riding. This test will probably tell you that your #2 compression is less than ideal: http://www.dansmc.com/leakdown.htm However; that becomes less important as rpm's increase, as you have seen, because there is less time to leak and compression improves. Fixing that leak, whatever the cause, will be expensive. The website of the above link will teach you much: http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm The crankshaft of your engine is a 180-degree: Spark plug #1 fires - 180 degree rotation - spark plug #2 fires - 540 degrees additional rotation - Spark plug #1 fires again - ........ and so on
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí Last futzed with by Motofool; July 10th, 2016 at 03:14 PM. |
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July 10th, 2016, 04:21 PM | #21 | |
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July 10th, 2016, 06:50 PM | #22 | |
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If you can reduce the idle to steady 1,600 rpm, it will be better for switching gears.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 10th, 2016, 07:23 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
Somehow when i set the rpm below 2000 , cylinder 2 would die no combustion and rpm will rapidly drop to 1500 with only cylinder 1 running , within a couple of seconds if i dont give it gas , the bike will die completely and it will be hard to start again whats weird is that when i give it gas , cylinder 2 would come back to life and rpm will swing wildly 2500-2000-1500 again . |
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July 10th, 2016, 08:06 PM | #24 | |
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Just keep the rpm around 2000, if that makes the engine happy and it does not stall in traffic. It will not do any damage if you keep an eye on coolant temperature during long stops at traffic lights. As I said before, just keep using the bike as is and save some money for the future, when you can remove the head and replace any damaged or worn part. Thank you for your kind words, Julius Michael. Hope your sight condition does not progress. Now I feel less depressed and my wife is helping me read some threads and posts. My best!
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 11th, 2016, 06:43 AM | #25 | |
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As of now , i'll give it a change oil(1st time since 2010) and put some coolant in the radiator(its running on tap water) , who knows it may just be a dirt sludged between the piston ring and maybe some good high rpm run and it will fix itself thank you so much for the big help Motofool |
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July 14th, 2016, 06:03 AM | #26 |
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some update guys :
ok i put coolant to the radiator , Prestone premixed green color , did run the bike for 15 mins , idling on cylinder #2 is full of sputtering and misfire , its not actually stabilizing even with 2500 rpm. What really happening out here is that only cyl #1 is carrying cyl #2 so the engine doesnt stall, and the moment i try to reduce the rpm to 1500, the engine will stall. Here is the weird part , when i rev it cylinder #2 fires perfectly , i know because my hands is in the exhaust manifold the pulse is consistent and hot .. while when im not revving it ,the pulse is weak + cold with sometimes strong+hot pulses which is a moment of successful combustion . Yep so here i go , this weekend i'll try to redline it /torture test if it doesnt die , i guess its good enough for commuting to school. |
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July 16th, 2016, 04:49 AM | #27 |
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I ran the bike to going to the gas station, torque is insane , im overtaking car's worth up to $60,000 , at 4th gear doing around 120km/h with a single carb and 1 low compression cylinder, i got this feeling of fear again and i love it for so long i had waited the dual front brakes are awesome from 120km/h i slowed down to the corner easily .
When i got to the gas station , the engine is stalling if i dont give it gas even at 2500rpm i guess because when it becomes warm the Oil becomes thicker and cylinder 1 have to overcome more, the bike died on me. Took me 3 attempts till it fired up, i set the rpm to 5000 just to be safe , then i rode back home again the bike is insane, at 6000rpm its like nothing but when i open the throttle a bit up to 3/4th i feel like 12 G of acceleration up to 13,000 rpm i never even had the chance to try the bike on 6th gear with max rpm the road is not enough ...... |
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July 16th, 2016, 01:54 PM | #28 |
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Friendly correction:
When the engine gets hot, oil becomes less viscous and the wet seals around the rings and valve guides become weaker. Somehow, that is compensated by less friction (due to reduced viscous resistance to movement) and tighter gap between piston, rings, end of rings and cylinder (due to dilatation of metals).
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 17th, 2016, 02:36 AM | #29 |
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But im using 10w-40 oil , i thought when cold its weighted as 10 , and when at 100 celsius it becomes a 40 weighted oil?
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July 17th, 2016, 11:13 AM | #30 | |
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10W-40 means that the oil is multi-grade, due to some additives that reduce the drastic change in viscosity with changes in temperature. The viscosity of liquids decreases as temperature increases. For non-multigrade natural oils, the vicosity index can become double with a temperature drop of 5 Celsius degrees. Please see these links: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity_index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 17th, 2016, 11:14 AM | #31 | |
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Here's an example. 10W-30 acts like 10 in the cold and 30 when it's hot. But the actual viscosity measurement of either one in the cold is much higher than the viscosity of either one at operating temperature. The point of a multi-grade oil is to give you the benefits of a lower weight oil in the cold and a higher weight when it's hot. This means it flows better when it's cold (without getting too thin when it's hot) and protects better when it's hot (without being too thick to pump when it's cold).
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July 17th, 2016, 05:14 PM | #32 |
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Woah , thanks guys , still learning a lot from you . I have a new problem after that redline test my water pump cover has some drippings of green coolant below and its still leaking until now drop by drop i took everything apart yesterday and did high temp silicon gaskets around the housing cover but still the leak persist
I got this pic from the internet and we have the same spot where the leak is happening , they said it was the weep hole in the water pump and theres no fix for it but to replace the whole pump assembly |
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July 17th, 2016, 08:38 PM | #33 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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July 17th, 2016, 10:15 PM | #34 |
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Looks like its shot , list of parts needed replacing are growing , btw i will still use the bike , this time i wont use coolant but only distilled water , damn it sucks i wasted money on that Prestone coolant , one more question i will run the bike and for sure coolant will drip on that hole, i dont think i can refill it using the radiator cap when hot , can you tell me how does the overflow tank work can i fill the additional distilled water there lets say every 20 kilometer, does the cooling system get more on the overflow tank ?
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July 17th, 2016, 10:43 PM | #35 |
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School is approximately 20 kilometers from home , do you think 1 liter of distilled water is enough for that trip . I just need something to get me going , i dont like commuting here , it takes 3 rides to get to school and i'm always late because commuting here is inefficient and slow and the traffic is worst in the world.
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July 19th, 2016, 04:23 AM | #36 |
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I noticed my expansion tank was filled with coolant halfway before the full mark , while when i drained in the pump i only got around 500ml , i believe i destroyed my water pump seal by running the bike dry.
Before that redline test , the expansion tank was empty , and the coolant was about almost full when i look in the radiator cap thats only 1 L of coolant and i ran out of coolant for the expansion tank maybe that destroyed my pump turbine shaft seal it was running dry actually . |
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July 19th, 2016, 07:24 PM | #37 | |
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The overflow tank is just a reserve of liquid to compensate for dilatation and contraction of the liquid contained in the closed and pressurized loop. The leak through that orifice comes from the suction side of the pump, which sees the lowest pressure; however, the cap of the radiator is sealing properly and that low pressure is higher than atmospheric pressure; hence, the leak after the engine is hot. The total amount of liquid that the closed loop contains is around 1.0 liter. Keep on refilling the expansion tank and happily riding. Please, learn how the cooling system works: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cooling_system http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...ling_system%3F
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 19th, 2016, 09:09 PM | #38 | |
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July 20th, 2016, 03:49 AM | #39 | |
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Quote:
P.S the newgen pump is actually cheaper than the pregen Original thread: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=145432 |
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July 20th, 2016, 03:50 AM | #40 | |
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