December 1st, 2017, 09:32 PM | #1 |
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20w50?
Hello all! Thank you for indulging me with this question: What do you think of 20w50 motorcycle oil in the EX300? our winters in SF bay area are mild and the little twin revs so high that I'm thinking 20 grade is fine for starting in my climate and 50 grade is great for 13K rpm. Not sure how it will affect the wet clutch on this bike.
And the Hi-Flo filter. What are your thoughts on the quality for the Ninja 300. I use the brand exclusively on my Ducati, as well as the 20w50 on the Paso which has a dry clutch. I value your thoughts and I thank you for your time and attention. |
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December 1st, 2017, 10:22 PM | #2 |
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I gave you my experienced opinion on the fork brace, but you can't suck me into an oil thread.
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December 2nd, 2017, 01:58 AM | #3 |
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Viscosity is but just one property of oil. Yet it's not a good predictor of high-RPM lubrication. There are many other characteristics and ingredients that are more pertinent. Please read the following articles so we have same background info to start this discussion.
https://www.sportrider.com/oils-well-ends-well-part-1 https://www.sportrider.com/oils-well...ds-well-part-2 |
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December 2nd, 2017, 07:59 AM | #4 |
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Remember that viscosity is a floating target. There is no oil that maintains the same viscosity across all temperatures. As oil warms, it thins. Period. Viscosity modifiers are how we end up with multi-grade oils, such as 10W-40. The SAE 10 is the base oil, then modifiers are added, which, with heat, uncoil their chains and create friction in the fluid. This internal friction mimics the viscosity of a higher grade oil, which makes the oil behave like it's higher rated number.
Anyhow. Back to the beginning. Temp vs Viscosity. It's called kinematic viscosity and the temperature is always important. If anyone ever asks you "What's the viscosity of this oil?" your response without hesitation should always be, "What's the temperature?" Look at manufacturer spec sheets and you'll see that it typically has multiple temps that it defines a viscosity for. For example, ISO grade oils always have viscosity defined for 40C and 100C, shown in centistokes cSt. Temp is just as important as the rated viscosity grade. Its very possible (in fact likely) that there is some hot temperature where 20W-50 has the same viscosity as 10W-40 at the rated hot temp, as outlined by the SAE. By recommending 10W-40, Kawasaki has stated that our engine does best with a viscosity of X cSt at this temp. If you find some temperature where 20W-50 has the same viscosity as 10W-40 at the SAE operating temp, and then have data to show that your engine meets those temp demands, go for it. Other than that, I see no reason to mess with the hot grade for these engines. Remember that the highest temp inside an engine is in the jugs, where the rings slide across the cylinder walls. This temp is NOT highly affected by atmospheric temps during normal operation, but IS highly affected by air/fuel mixture, ignition timing, engine loading, etc. However, the cold temps ARE affected by atmospheric conditions, as you're starting your engine at whatever temp the air around it is. This brings up the first number of a multigrade, but that's an entirely different discussion. To surmise this whole post: viscosity and temps are intimately related. To make a change to viscosity, you must have a well defined understanding of the temperatures that will be experienced by the lubricant. Engine RPM is important because it gives you an idea on how much oil flow there should be to transfer heat appropriately, but that's only a small portion of the decision. If you reaallllly want to change oils, you need to get the special logarithmic-scale graphing paper, plot the kinematic viscosity of each oil you're considering, and then draw a box with the outer limits of your temp range and outer limits of your viscosity. Whichever curve fits the biggest amount inside the box is the "best" choice. There's various little calculators to do this online, so do some research before randomly deciding to change engine oils. Link to kinematic viscosity: http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-...es/engine-oil/ FWIW, I really don't think the weather in SF Bay area is significantly different enough to justify straying from the "normal" 10W-40 or 5W-40, but this is just a SWAG without any data to back it. AKA, anecdotal. But do the research and prove me wrong. You'll learn something along the way and your engine will get the best lubricant for it, regardless of who is right and who is wrong. |
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December 2nd, 2017, 11:53 AM | #5 |
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5/40?
I went to the T6 after reading about it. I had run reg. 15/40 in several bikes over the yrs as the write-ups for diesel seemed good. My Futura that was swapped for the 300 got a diet of 15/50 Mobil 1. In the 70s the Guzzi Sport got 20/50 Valvoline. My basis was thicker for bigger slower revers. But now w cars going 0/20 or some such 5/40 seems thick enough. Old and still a bit Clueless!
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December 2nd, 2017, 01:19 PM | #6 |
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I'd just stick with the 10W40 that Kawasaki has designed the bike to use.
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December 2nd, 2017, 03:39 PM | #7 | |
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Bill
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December 2nd, 2017, 07:00 PM | #8 |
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Yeah, full synthetic is way to go. That poor Paso isn’t even getting the minimum oil requirements recommended by Ducati!
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December 2nd, 2017, 08:39 PM | #9 |
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Thank you so much for your replies. Everyone. Very helpful. I'll take the good advice found here and I am so grateful for the new understanding this thread has brought me. The Duc is fine. :-)
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December 17th, 2017, 04:56 PM | #10 |
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I shopped and found and use an excellent fully synthetic 4T 5w40 motorcycle oil from Germany on Amazon less expensive than Mobile or Shell or Castrol for the same specification.
Link here— https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OJHLEV4...vert-amazon-20 |
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December 18th, 2017, 12:35 AM | #11 |
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The Bay Area is really not warm enough to warrant using 20W-50 lol.
Shell Rotella T6 is definitely cheaper at only ~$21 at Walmart and you can easily pick it up at any time. Even cheaper if they are running a rebate at the time, which happens every so often.
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December 18th, 2017, 07:13 AM | #12 |
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Not that it would matter to me, but T6 isn't synthetic at all, it just passes the requirements that allow it to be classified as synthetic. That helps with the price.
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December 18th, 2017, 07:47 AM | #13 | |
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Quote:
It's a hydro-cracked Group III synthetic - which in the U.S. is allowed to be called synthetic. Outside of the U.S. Group III oils are not allowed to be called synthetic. It's not the best synthetic, but it certainly adequate for most cycle use and is has most of the traits of synthetic that you want - meaning it flows better at low temps and doesn't breakdown at high temps like conventional oil does. Almost all of the "synthetic" automotive oils are Group III - standard Mobil 1 (Extended Performance are a few others are Group IV), Castrol Syntec, Pennzoil Platinum, Quaker State synthetic, etc. T6 does shear-down to a low 40-grade/high 30-grade oil rather quickly in a cycle trans - which isn't really a problem unless it affects smooth shifting. It is noticeable in my SV650 after about 1000 mi, so I've been using Group IV or V cycle oil instead. Based on our experience with the little Ninja, T6 holds up fine. It's a solid choice for most cycles IMO. The next step up are Group IV PAOs and Group V Esters. |
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December 18th, 2017, 07:50 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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December 18th, 2017, 08:42 AM | #15 |
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I have a problem with oil that starts as crude oil from underground being classified as synthetic, but it's not a big problem because I generally don't buy expensive oil.
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December 18th, 2017, 09:42 AM | #16 |
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"Shell Rotella T6 is definitely cheaper at only ~$21 at Walmart and you can easily pick it up at any time. Even cheaper if they are running a rebate at the time, which happens every so often."
HTB. I've only seen Shell Rotella T6 in the $45-50 range for 4 litres. Even at Walmart... |
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December 18th, 2017, 10:06 AM | #17 | |
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December 18th, 2017, 10:19 AM | #18 |
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No worry at all, Bill. It's just that in 50 years or so of experience with many engines of many types, I've never had a type-of-oil related problem or failure. Having the right amount of good, clean oil of the correct viscosity in an engine is a zillion times more important than what kind it is. And I've miked many crankshaft journals, measured and plotted cam lobes, inspected bores and piston surfaces, etc..
There are guys who research and buy the absolute best oil they can find, and there are others who use decent, ordinary dino oil, and there's no reason to try to convince someone of the other group he's wrong, or try to convince newcomers that they're foolish to buy anything but synthetic oil. Since I've been around the Internet boards, I've read of engine failures from low oil, too much oil, forgetting to put oil in a newly rebuilt engine, and water in the oil, but never a failure that could be attributed to not spending enough on oil. And I buy helmets that meet DOT and Snell standards, but have never been over about $120. |
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December 18th, 2017, 01:30 PM | #19 | |
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December 18th, 2017, 01:52 PM | #20 |
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Amazon has 5W-40 T6 for $29/gallon, and a $5 rebate that brings it down to $24.
https://www.amazon.com/Shell-ROTELLA...01LH7L0KS?th=1 |
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December 18th, 2017, 02:23 PM | #21 | |
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Anyway, I use Mobil products because "Cycle" magazine was always referencing Mobil Research Department results in many of their editorials. I was a Castrol, and Sunoco 260 freak at the time but it stuck with me. Then I read an article on the Mobil.com website about a BMW 530i they ran on a test bed for the equivalent of 500,000 miles on Mobil One synthetic. When the engine was torn down 90% of the engine parts could have been put back on the new manufacture assembly line. Bullroar you say. OK, I'm happy with 250,000 miles. Brush the snowflakes off your jacket. Bill P,S,; I've never spent over $85.00 for a helmet.
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December 18th, 2017, 02:31 PM | #22 | |
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https://www.walmart.com/ip/Rotella-T...-A0II/14958681 It's out of stock on their website right now but that's the price I always see, and I'm also in the Bay Area. I just bought some a few nights ago.
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December 18th, 2017, 03:00 PM | #23 | |
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The exceptions are engines like racing 2-stroke snowmobiles that really do tax an oil to its limit by expecting to keep pistons an cylinders happy at very low oil/fuel ratios and very high loads. But they have numbers like 300 hp from 1000cc. |
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December 18th, 2017, 03:16 PM | #24 | |
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December 18th, 2017, 03:26 PM | #25 |
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10/4 on 2 strokes
I remember back in 70s someone said the lead in the gas was only thing lubing the rod rollers. That may have been BS but enough oil is more important than pedigree of it. My Senior Mechanic back then thought my Guzzi's 20/50 was thick while he used straight 10 in his 455 Pontiac but they served in different environments. The metal parts are happy w whatever molecules keep them apart.
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December 18th, 2017, 03:37 PM | #26 |
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4-strokes had better not have gasoline on their connecting rods, and 2-strokes have an oil/fuel mixture bathing the rod's roller bearings, so yes... BS. The story, of course, is lead in fuel lubricates valve seats, but in general the problems caused by no-lead fuel are way overblown.
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December 18th, 2017, 04:22 PM | #27 | |
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Basically, it makes sure each oil molecule is exactly the same size and aligned the same way. So... what's "synthetic" is not the fluid itself, but the structure of that fluid, if you will. It's no more slippery or less slippery than conventional, it's more perfect. It's better for consistency and longevity. Sure... not really ALL that important for a motorcycle that sees seasonal use of <8,000 miles per year and has a sump of only 2 quarts, but you better believe it's a major concern in machines that run 24/7 and have oil sumps north of 1,000 gallons and go 5-10 years between overhauls. |
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December 20th, 2017, 10:41 AM | #28 | |
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December 20th, 2017, 10:57 AM | #29 | |
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Oils have changed. A standard automotive oil (conventional or synthetic) is not a very good choice for a cycle engine or an older engine with solid (non-roller) lifters. The pressure at the contact areas are extreme and in certain conditions require special additives (Zinc and Phosphorus or "ZDDP") to prevent galling. Current auto oils have reduced amounts of those additives to protect the emissions catalyst. Diesel oils (conventional and synthetic) like Rotella and Delvac are not required to have lower levels, and have safe levels that are similar to most "cycle specific" oils. |
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December 20th, 2017, 11:13 AM | #30 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
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Yes, I've read a lot about ZDDP, and have bought Valvoline VR1 for a particular application I have. I've also run low ZDDP oil in non-roller engines for many thousands of miles with no problems. The "certain conditions" you wrote is probably a good qualifier. Although I put VR1 in my 250 last time I changed the oil, I'm temped to run low ZDDP oil next time just so I can report my findings after my next valve adjustment.
Have you actually seen in person cam and lifter galling that you can attribute to low ZDDP oil? I had a BBC cam wipe a couple lobes once, but it was way before ZDDP levels were lowered, and it was a triple valve spring setup. |
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December 20th, 2017, 11:35 AM | #31 | |
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I've seen messed-up cams before, but not in any of my engines because I'm careful about maintenance and the products i use. It's all in who you trust/believe. Don't take my word for it. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015...or-oil-issues/ "Reducing ZDDP in motor oils created some serious cam lobe and lifter wear issues in older engines with flat tappet cams – especially those with hi-lift performance cams and stiffer valve springs. One fix was to run diesel motor oil in these engines to prevent cam wear. The higher level of ZDDP in diesel oils provided the same anti-wear protection as the older gasoline motor oils." https://generalaviationnews.com/2013...-can-hurt-you/ "In a flat tappet lifter engine, the point where the camshaft contacts the lifter is the highest load point for the lubricant. ZDDP additives work by attacking and coating the cam and lifter face with a microscopic layer. Then when the lobe starts to open the valve, that layer is sheared off. This is called sacrificial lubrication and it greatly increases the load carrying capability of an oil." http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm "Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. You can decide for yourself. |
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December 20th, 2017, 12:01 PM | #32 | |
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Oh, I've read all that stuff before. I'd try it to debunk the scary story. It's like the way I believed that running my MEP-003A generator below 1800 rpm would not hurt the regulator, and documented doing it while checking the regulator temperature in a effort to get the guys on Steel Soldiers to ease up in spreading that story. It didn't work very well though... the story is still being spread.
Edit: How about this quote from the Bobistheoilguy site. I haven't checked its source, mainly because I have stuff I need to get done today: Quote:
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December 20th, 2017, 12:10 PM | #33 |
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Well, I didn't think there was any conspiracy going on, but do as you like.
The info is out there to help others that may not know there are differences in oils to make the right choice. EDIT: The above tests were done on standard auto engines, which typically have less lift and valve spring pressure than motorcycle engines. As the lift and valve spring pressures increase, so does the chances of galling. Really Jim - there are inexpensive solutions (diesel oil) that have what are generally agreed to be "safer" levels, so unless you really want to run an inexpensive auto oil to save a few cents there shouldn't be much debate. Last futzed with by jkv45; December 20th, 2017 at 01:43 PM. |
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December 20th, 2017, 02:07 PM | #34 |
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As I've tried to say before, it's not a matter of cost at all. I did post a little while ago that there are two groups of oil consumers, and neither one should not try to convince the other to change his beliefs. Both have engines that are running along fine.
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December 20th, 2017, 02:19 PM | #35 | |
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December 20th, 2017, 04:41 PM | #36 | |
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I think the more important asterisk to the tappet galling issue is not to beware of low ZDDP oils, but to beware low AW oils for this application. IE, I wouldn't run an industrial compressor ISO 100 oil in my flat tappet engine that calls for 10W-40, even though the hot viscosity is similar. It's not about anecdotally saying "it's fine because I haven't seen a problem!", it's about finding the right oil for the application. Many will work, but there's always a way to ensure you're giving yourself the best chances possible. Oil sampling and testing is really the only way to know how your oil is performing. When in doubt, call/email the contact on the website for whatever oil you are interested in running. They're usually really good about having people on staff who know what they're talking about to answer questions. As always, pick one oil that you like the color/smell/taste of best and stick with it! All these additives we've been talking about don't necessarily play well together, especially when heated and mechanically agitated. Sludge is a real concern. |
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December 21st, 2017, 08:16 AM | #37 |
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I like to use coconut oil, smells great, and if I get hungry, I can share some of my bike's supply.
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December 21st, 2017, 09:19 AM | #38 | |
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I really do use coconut oil for cutting oil in the machine shop. It works as well as any I've used, and doesn't stink the place up. A machinist showed me that trick around 1985. |
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December 21st, 2017, 10:35 AM | #39 |
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Thank you all for the great discussion! And for sharing your knowledge and personal experience.
"I really do use coconut oil for cutting oil in the machine shop. It works as well as any I've used, and doesn't stink the place up. A machinist showed me that trick around 1985." Thank you for the good suggestion! I'll bet it is a tad less expensive than the cutting oil I've been using. :-) |
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December 21st, 2017, 12:34 PM | #40 |
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