January 27th, 2018, 01:04 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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New here & lookin to rebuild
Hello everybody, I purchased a 2007 Ninja over the summer of 2017, I added a small mod that was quite easy which was going with the euro look for the rear lights. The bike ran pretty good for the most part, the problems that I have had with it was that the idle wasn’t great all the time but it was more towards start ups; and before the engine went caput the battery died after I wouldn’t ride for a week. So my main reason for the post really is because I want to rebuild the motor, and I don’t plan on going cheap.
The reason I have the motor went bad is that I am getting a pinging/knocking noise from the right side of the motor, I took it to a shop and they said it was coming from the timing chain and they said it would be not worth working on it,$$$. So that led me to suspect the rocker arms but when the valve cover was off I inspected the rockers and the chain and didn’t see anything. Only sign of wear was when I drained the oil so I can pull the motor, and that’s when I saw the copper and aluminum flakes. Yes I like to rev high and go a bit fast, so that’s Off the chest which left me to suspect that it could be a bearing failure in the lower-end. Motor is out of the bike, and I want to tear it down and rebuild it but I can’t find where to buy bearing, any clues, buying old stuff is my last resort and I did read on a thread that some one suggested a big bore kit but that was 3-4yeArs ago. And I have links to some site of were I was going to get my stuff but I can post it upon request. Pictures of the bike?? |
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January 27th, 2018, 03:31 PM | #2 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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Greetings, and welcome
My 2¢ on rebuilding the engine is don't waste your time and money. These are cheap, enough to get another used one, and keep riding. These engines are disposable, cheap and plentifully. There will always be some sediments in the oil, I'd say replace the CCT, and see if that eliminates the Cam chain noise. And how bjgh are you revving it? And how long? These engines are pretty tough, assuming you keep the oil up to level, clean, filter, and oil pump screen, etc.... Same to be said about the clutch. These engines are known to make a knocking sound, which is most likely the clutch basket, which is nothing to worry about. Read this https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What%2..._the_clutch%3F Hope this helps you out. P. S. How many miles on it?
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January 27th, 2018, 04:45 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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So your saying to try to find a motor that had been pulled and go with them saying tha it still runs, the shipping on that kind of stuff is a bit pricey, and going on the risk of it going to run just kinda seems iffy to me though I have done that on a car before and had to rebuild the car, I will leave that as my last option because then I can have donor motor I can piece together.
The cct is down in the chain channel? I will take a look at some exploded view of a motor. I had I think 15k+ on the motor |
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January 27th, 2018, 05:17 PM | #4 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
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Odds are the knocking noise is the clutch basket, the ninja 250 PreGen and it's bigger brother have the same issue. It's nothing to worry about, as both of my bikes make that noise, and they have about 50k miles on each.
The CCT is on the clutch side mounted on the outside of the motor here's a link that, should help you out, https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cam_ch...sioner_removal You can try cleaning it, I've tried to clean mine, but had to get a new one, and that fixed my Cam chain noise. I'd say keep the motor you got for now, and check Craig's list for a doner bike, you can pick one up cheap, I've done this as well too. Because this is an, entry level bike, the get wreaked often, so you can buy one cheap. Rebuilding these engines is different that a car, the head and cylinder need to be lapped, not cut!!!! Milled, etc... There isn't enough meat on it for that. Also the cylinder bore is also thin, so you can go too much over maybe. 005 over. Add to all, this the cost is parts, gaskets etc.... And you'd be better off finding another engine cheap. If any member here is close by maybe they could help you out and take a look. Unfortunately it's the wrong time of year for me to make a road trip. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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January 27th, 2018, 05:52 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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Ok I get what your say but there is a major issue with it, that’s my I am not reading it and not worrying about the knocking. Clutch was fine when I ride but the rpms won’t run past 4K, and it’s not a small knock. But thanks for the your opinion, i I will give it a second till I get a motor.
Thanks Ghostt |
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January 27th, 2018, 05:57 PM | #6 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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So it's knocking over 4k rpm?
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January 27th, 2018, 06:10 PM | #7 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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No the motor will not run past 4-5k like a piston isn’t working, And it’s knocking all the time; I must keep my hand on the throttle to keep the engine from not dying.
The last time I was on the freeway and the bike died on me, thus the problem was occurring. So yes I tried to run it again but i couldn’t as well as me pushing it off the freeway and having a friend pick it up oil was inside. That’s when I took it to shop and they told me there was a possible problem in the timing chain |
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January 27th, 2018, 06:47 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
That's where it gets expensive, and that's why most of the time it's a much more cost-effective route to pick-up a different engine. I sold one last summer with low miles (no carbs) for $250. You can't get very far with $250 when it comes to major rebuilds. These bikes can be a dime-a-dozen, so you need to be careful how much you put into them if you don't want to lose a bunch of money when you sell it. |
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January 27th, 2018, 11:56 PM | #9 | |
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Bill
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January 28th, 2018, 12:16 AM | #10 |
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Welcome! I hope you figure out a good solution to your problem.
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January 28th, 2018, 07:38 AM | #11 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
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How to check the pump screen
https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Checking_the_oil_screen Handy link https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Ninja250_Howto Also have you done/checked the valve adjustment? As this is one of the most overlooked items of maintenance.
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January 28th, 2018, 07:45 AM | #12 |
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If you do decide to go through the engine that you have, this link is usually helpful.
http://www.rcramer.com/bikes/ex250/rebuild_notes.html I've been down that road. Did a bunch of top end work. Spent more time and money than I should have. Engine swapping (and I even used a new gen engine, which added some extra work) was easier. If I hadn't been so damn lazy and busy, the swap would have been a single day event. If you're familiar with the bike and prepared for the job, you can have it stripped and engine out within an hour or two. |
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January 29th, 2018, 11:48 AM | #13 | ||||
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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Quote:
Quote:
If you had a thread of how you did that swap it might be useful, I On the fence still but leaning towards the rebuild of the pistons/walls are not damaged. Quote:
Though I did do the rocker arms 3-5k ago when I first got the bike for maintenance, and pull the carbs to make sure they were clean. Quote:
Thank you everyone home to have this going in 2-4weeks. I do have a boroscope I sure for Work and will inspect the pistons and maybe down the chain channel if I go that far. |
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January 29th, 2018, 12:18 PM | #14 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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As for swapping I did just go over this post:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...gen+motor+sale Which kinda of changes the game especially if I have more options and a little bit more parts that I have a quantity of in my area. I will have to go over the post again as I under stand that if I just shave 1/4” off rachel side then I could make it work with the fuel pump? |
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January 29th, 2018, 12:28 PM | #15 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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This is a picture of the bike kind of when I first got it, seat was torn at first then some drunk chick knocked over my bike and hasn’t paid for it. Only photo I have of the bike right now but I replaced the mirror and want to use:
https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=...1&LH_PrefLoc=1 To repair the plastics if she doesn’t pay me. I have had to change the tire out and the shop was going to charge me a bit more bucks to do it so I just gave them the wheel, placed it on there and cleaned and then line the chain did the rear brakes while I was there but that was before the bit went caput. I also did the seat my self got the vinyl and the staple gun and three the vinyl in the dryer. |
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January 29th, 2018, 01:24 PM | #16 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
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The fairings are ABS, so ABS cement from the hardware store's plumbing department works well, along with some reinforcing cloth like fiberglass, or some thin ABS sheet cut to patch the back side.
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January 29th, 2018, 01:28 PM | #17 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
A used pre-gen engine can be found for much less. In fact, I have two on the shelf, but shipping will be prohibitive. |
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January 29th, 2018, 03:51 PM | #18 | |
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https://easyabsrepair.com Bill
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January 29th, 2018, 06:54 PM | #19 | |
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I used one newgen mount and one pregen mount because the newgen boss is wider. Drill out the weld that holds the coil mount to the engine mount and use that on each mount without being welded on. The holes line up still. Then I used a pregen radiator to clear the fairings and made small brackets to adapt to the one newgen mount. The newgen radiator will not clear the pregen fairings properly. I used newgen plug boots to seat on the plug and in the head properly. Newgen leads as well. Pregen coils. Direct swap. Newgen drive sprocket. Newgen sprocket guard. Electrical connectors are plug 'n play. The neutral switch connector wire was a little short to meet up with the same clean path as it had on the pregen because there's no cut in the sprocket guard. I should have added in a little extra length... but it worked fine if routed carefully. The only odd thing is there's not really a good mount for the radiator fill cap. It hangs there just fine, but it's not 100% as solid as it was before. Aftermarket newgen exhaust. Doesn't clear the pregen chin fairing like you'd expect. If you get the most tightly wrapped header you can find that hugs the block and case tightly, you might get lucky and it might clear. I went without chin fairing because lazy. Kleen air system blocked off. Pregen radiator boots and carb boots. Pregen radiator. Pregen carbs. I think I ended on Keihin 108 main jets with a modified airbox lid, aftermarket exhaust, and +2mm bored engine. That is a logical spot considering the factory jets for the newgen are 98's. |
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January 30th, 2018, 06:19 PM | #20 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Miguel
Location: MA
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I purchased a mostly complete parts bike just for the motor, not too long ago. I was able to test ride it, to ensure that the motor ran, and shifted well.
The most important part of this is that I drained the oil, and dropped the oil screen before committing to the purchase. No "gold flecks" in the oil, and no bits ( or chunks ) of metal in the screen = a good used motor in my book.
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January 30th, 2018, 06:30 PM | #21 |
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This is what I found in one motor that I took a chance on. At least it came with carbs, which was worth what I paid for the package.
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January 31st, 2018, 05:41 PM | #22 | |
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February 1st, 2018, 11:58 PM | #23 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
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So I happened to be bored and not working lately, so I want to also get this bike going before the semester starts back up again; I have the motor on the bench, and got the clutch and the cams off, chain is loose and that hefty 27mm nut behind the clutch set, I think I was stressing that I needed to split the case vertical, but when I saw the parts diagram online I saw that it is split horizontally. So I take it that I don’t need to worry about a case splitter/installer.
I am kinda of strapped in cash but I feel like I just want to find the source of problem. Though I do wish to go with that newer motor :/ The pictures are a bit self explanatory, and one for fun when I went to the park with the doggy Last futzed with by GreasedLissik; February 4th, 2018 at 10:35 AM. |
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February 2nd, 2018, 11:17 AM | #24 |
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February 2nd, 2018, 07:45 PM | #25 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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Quote:
But I was able to have some time for my self and find out what was wrong I did find a small shaft where I don’t know where it goes |
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February 3rd, 2018, 02:41 AM | #26 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
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So I have my pastes list and the price I am estimated at is 250-325 including gaskets
I feel like this might be the best way to go for now, due to the modification and the possibility of extra work of putting in a new motor, I just would like to get this done at least one week after my school semester starts. I will save up for the new gen just in case if I get another bike or whatever. But I beleave I will keeping the stock bite size, if there was no problem on the top of my pistons I don’t need to change the vaulted our right, or should I just check the just in case, I could at lease take them off and clean them:/ maybe take that part to a shop |
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February 3rd, 2018, 06:32 AM | #27 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
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Whatever you don't don't let the shop cut the head and/or bore, there isn't any extra meat there. You'll need to Lapp the them to assure you have a proper seal.
Here's my write-up on the subject Okay this goes for the Ninja 500, but I'm sure the Ninja 250 is the same, if not please let me know The intake valves are case hardened to a thin level of hardness and much in the way of metal removal with destroy them. Why do you think you need to lap them? if they are worn you need to re cut the seats and fit new valves ,no lapping required. If they are worn badly enough to need anything at all they develop a groove that offself is the detriment to flow. Lapping will make that worse. Head Gasket repair Lapping the head A common failure of the EX engine is, a blown head gasket. The usual cause of this besides the obvious low water or frozen coolant reasons is, warpage of the mating surface between the head and the cylinders. The string of events leading to overheating is: High pressure gas leaks from the combustion chamber into the coolant system, thereby over pressurizing it and blowing coolant overboard, then the coolant shortage causes overheating which causes even greater warp age, add on infanatum... As well as the above, any engine that has had the head removed for any reason need to be re lapped. This engine is a very flexible unit because of the cam chain gallery down the middle. The only thing holding the two cylinders together is the very thin wall of the front and back sides of the chain gallery. 1/8” if you’re lucky. This means that the engine works like two single cylinder engines running from a single crank held together by scotch tape. As long as they remain together they are usually fine, but once disassembled they need to be re flattened The repair: Unfortunately it is not a simple as replacing the head gasket. Because the “gasket” is not compressible, it is not able to absorb even slight distortion or warp age that may not even be detectable with the usual straight edge type of inspection. The up side of this is that you can re use the gasket. Tools needed: A lapping plate; usually a steel flat plate or a pain of flat plate glass. I’ve used my table saw table successfully (the cast iron type) Lapping compound: Valve lapping compound available at a Auto parts store The means to wash the parts clean after lapping. A bucket of Kerosene is fine. The Idea is to use the abrasive to grind down the high spots of the head and the cylinders till they are perfectly flat. See the pictures below. The process move the part over the surface of the Lapp in a figure 8 motion Clean and inspect your progress often. Shown is a partially cleaned surface You are now ready for reassembly. Clean the old head gasket with lacquer thinner and Scotch brute or steel wool. Then repaint it with 1 coat of spray enamel on both sides (1 coat) After assembly increase the Head Bolt torque to 40 lbs. ft. Now’s a good time to degree you cams. Freshly lapped set Shows the process and the lapp plate
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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February 3rd, 2018, 08:16 AM | #28 |
ninjette.org member
Name: silentlyloud
Location: South Bay LA
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Ghost, thank you so much you just helped me save at lease 50$ on gaskets. On the two cylinder gaskets I can take the Copper gasket spray and make them a little sticky and reuse the two gaskets right??
Do you know if lapping is manditory? I or should I bust out the straight edge and find out if it’s warped? |
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February 3rd, 2018, 09:49 AM | #29 |
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First step is to assess specs on what you have to work with.
1. Measure head and deck flatness. If they are within spec, no lapping needed. If warpage beyond spec, then lap to within proper spec 2. Still no pictures of crank rod-journals. Flip bottom end over and remove con-rods. Crank may really be toast and the sooner you find this out, the less time and money you’ll waste. |
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February 3rd, 2018, 12:41 PM | #30 | |
ninjette.org member
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Quote:
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February 3rd, 2018, 03:30 PM | #31 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
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Yes lapping is in my book mandatory!!!!, and I reuse the cylinder/head gasket all the time, but I also lap them every time!!!!
I've said this before in other posts, only to be ignored, and then read about how the head gasket leaked, etc... And they wonder why??? Lapping is easy enough to do, and doesn't cost a lot, the only cost it your time, and having it not leak. As my write-up states is was done for the 500, which has a design flaw due to the cam chain runs between the two cylinders, but the lapping principal is the same, as is the head gasket, etc....
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February 3rd, 2018, 04:06 PM | #32 | |
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Quote:
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February 3rd, 2018, 04:08 PM | #33 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
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Follow the write-up, wood is a no-go!!!!
You need to understand the lapping principal.
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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February 3rd, 2018, 04:27 PM | #34 | |
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Bill
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February 3rd, 2018, 08:32 PM | #35 | |
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All good after completing the repair. Here's additional information from the EX500 forum - http://www.ex-500.com/37-how-s-fyi/6...ad-gasket.html |
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February 3rd, 2018, 10:25 PM | #36 | |
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Bill
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February 4th, 2018, 05:18 AM | #37 |
ninjette.org guru
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Back in Post #23, in the photo of the oil screen, that appears to me to be "gold flecks". In my book, that equals bearing failure ( not that I am an expert ). Have you evaluated the bearings yet, for the connecting rods, I think?
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February 4th, 2018, 04:38 PM | #38 |
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February 5th, 2018, 02:49 PM | #39 |
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Join Date: Jan 2018 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja eX250 Posts: 49
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So I have some parts on order- cyclinder block, with pistons, crank and rods, and new piston rings
I took apart the old crank and found the journal of the rod and crank were scored and I would think they need to be machined, I am on the hunt for a flat surface though to lap the block and the head, I would be cleaning the head and valves as well as lapping the valves |
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February 5th, 2018, 03:02 PM | #40 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Measure contact area (seat-width), you may need to machine them narrower.
Might as well back-cut valves while you're there. |
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