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#1 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Sanity check before potentially replacing rings on a race bike
I am about to acquire a 2017 Ninja 300 race bike. The owner has indicated it will need new rings as it started to smoke.
From what I know so far it has the Spears racing thinner head gasket and some undercut gears. Not sure what other goodies it has. I have swapped crankcases on a newgen 250 before so I am not totally new to working on these motors. My question is making sure I am going about this correctly. 1) Compression check to verify it is indeed rings, start dry test then wet test if number is low. 2) replace rings. Is there anything else I could be missing? Any other suggestions of things to do/check before/after? Thanks! |
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#2 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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First, verify your air-filter is not soaking with oil. Only need two-layers of spray-oil per side.
Next, with bike level and rested overnight, make sure it's not over-filled with oil. You should see bubble of top of oil-level in sight glass. Make sure crankcase vent-tube is NOT clogged. That's tube connecting rear of engine to air-box at bottom. Do warm compression-test first and post results here. Do dry and wet test with oil squirted down spark-plug hole. Depending upon tester used, it should read anywhere from 120-180psi. Then do leak-down test to determine if it's rings or valves that's leaking. You might just need valve-adjustment. Last ditch-effort, do piston-soak and see if it improves. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=343925 Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; February 21st, 2020 at 10:04 AM. |
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#3 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
This bike won't have an airbox, its got a filter on it. I have done that mixture in the past with an old pregen 250, So I am familiar with it. I have not done a valve adjustment before but I have feeler gauges to check them. When I get the bike next week I will post back with what I find on the compression numbers, thank you! |
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#4 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
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#5 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 2
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You'll be fine going back to stock headgasket.
I'm wondering if the smoking is due to the thinner headgasket not sealing properly.
__________________________________________________
HalfFast Racing Team Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days |
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#6 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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I was wondering the same thing. This bike was used by a kid that won several races, and they are selling to fun their motoamerica program. Its got a 415 chain, etc which I will convert back to a 520. I figure replacing the rings and the stock head gasket should help give it a little more longevity.
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#7 | |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
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Quote:
It is really easy to over-oil an air filter. I use UNI spray oil, and have found 1 coat is sufficient. Got carried away one time and did 2 medium coats. Engine ran really bad until I re-cleaned the filter and went with 1 light/med coat. Back to normal. |
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#8 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
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Quote:
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#9 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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thanks everyone for the input, I have a compression tester on the way. I will report back what the values are after I get my hands on the bike next Friday.
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#10 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Quote:
https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_d...e_vent_hose%3F |
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#11 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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#12 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
Looks like I will have to do a cold compression test, what numbers would be normal for a cold test? hoping to do it tomorrow. |
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#13 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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If you have gauge with bleed-valve far away from cylinders, like near gauge, you'll want to see 120-150psi cold/wet with usual 10% variation between cylinders max.
If your gauge has bleed-valve near spark-plug, you'll want 170-190psi. Even when raced these engines don't wear out very quickly. You're more likely to have worn clutches and suspension. Check valve-clearances. Valve-stem seals seem to wear out quicker when raced in hot climates. |
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#14 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
My gauge has the Schrader valve near the gauge. |
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#15 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qwrw22ozfn..._3277.jpg?dl=0 |
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#16 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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to me it seems instead of using the emissions block off plate, they routed that hose to the crankcase breather that use to go to the airbox, why not just block the plate off and then install a tiny pod filter? thats what I did on my 250, not sure if one way is better than the other
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#17 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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That's not good! Emissions-port on top actually goes to exhaust and is pressurized. They're pressurizing crankcase!!!
![]() Best bet is to restore ALL connections back to 100% stock condition. Then evaluate bike after that. |
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#18 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
Compression check on both cylinders cold and dry , is 125 after the needle stopped rising each time, with WOT. |
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#19 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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hypothetical question, what if someone ( an idiot) was trying to put oil in the cylinder to do a wet test, and a little bit too much oil in? would it just burn off once the engine was started?
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#20 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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A little squirt of oil will most likely get scraped off during compression test. So no worries about anything burning in cylinder.
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#21 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
With those compression numbers, should I just put it back together and run it and do a warm compression test? also unrelated, whenever i turn the key on, i hear a clicking for a few seconds from the black box attached to the throttle body, is that healthy or should I get a new one? |
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#22 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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That's stepper-motor for sub-throttle-bodies. Probably just resetting to closed position.
Yeah, just put it all back together and start it. Listen for knocking/clacking noises. There may be other non-standard mods by hack mechanics. Due to cost of competing in MotoAM series, there's lots of family volunteer "mechanics" who may not know these bikes very well. Quite different from 1957 Chevy truck! |
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#23 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
ok, I ordered a new radiator so I will try getting it running then and will go from there with a warm compression test. Kinda relieved the rings might be ok considering all the other small issues it has. |
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#24 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m2cfysw5go...%20PM.mov?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/lebyb07rlh...%20PM.mov?dl=0 |
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#25 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
ran the engine in the garage for about 5 min, so not sure if thats warm enough etc. The smoke that PO said was present disappeared after a few mine. did a warm compression check and my gauge said 140psi for each cylinder. not sure if that counts as a true warm test since I couldn't ride it at higher RPM or anything Thoughts? |
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#26 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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got a new dash in, was able to find the codes, there are 2
64 Air switching valve malfunction, wiring open or short 32 Subthrottle sensor malfunction, wiring open or short so the subthorrle sensor is indeed bad, the PO removed the PAIR valve completly |
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#27 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Sensor may be perfectly OK. Measure it and measure wiring to determine where fault is.
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#28 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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#29 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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here are the results of the valve clearance
looks like I will be replacing the intake shims, should improve compression as well I would assume https://www.dropbox.com/s/vsn9sqecpt...%20PM.jpg?dl=0 |
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#30 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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#31 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Quote:
You do have a little valve between the emissions port and airbox? With an additional vacuum-hose to operate the valve? This valve ensures that exhaust doesn't get pushed into airbox. Bikes don't have EGR... |
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#32 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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the PAIR valve is gone, so I ordered a block off plate and a plug to get rid of the CEL from the sensor. I will put a K&N filter on it and run without the airbox.
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#33 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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just as an update, did the valve job, cold/dry compression is 150psi on each cylinder.
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#34 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Awesome work!!!
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#35 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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#36 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
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That’s in Ok range. Due to extra volume in hose, it lowers compression measured compared to calculated values.
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#37 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 |
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#38 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
due to the fact this is a track only bike and would spend most of its live above 10K RPM anyway, and since I have the bike fully stripped, I might just drop the motor and do rings to be safe. Its going to need them at some point in the future at this rate. |
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#39 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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Compression is perfectly fine. Bleed-valve is way up by gauge, entire volume of hose is considered part of combustion-chamber. Reading of 145psi is perfectly fine.
My race 250 bike has 5 hard seasons on it now. Two by previous owner and 3 by me. It got 145psi when I picked it up. Did 40-48 days at track each year. About 10-14 of those are races, which are actually easier on bike due to less time on track. Rest are full trackdays, 2.5-3hrs at WOT. After last season, I did tune-up for this year and tested compression. Exact same 145psi. You'll find after re-ringing engine, readings will be pretty much close to same. Perhaps even lower before it's broken in. |
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#40 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: David
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 Posts: 386
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Quote:
interesting, I wonder why the service manual states such a higher value? 162 ∼ 246 psi also did a wet test and got 175 |
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