July 29th, 2019, 02:37 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Mitch
Location: Europe
Join Date: Jul 2019 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R '08 Posts: 5
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Go faster - max lean angle on front tire
I own 250R since 2008. For the last two years I am taking it to the track. Based on this forum I also made a few basic modifications which dramatically improved track time/fun. So big thanks to the ninjette.org for the available knowledge.
But now I have a question that I cannot find in any of the forum posts here. The thing is that when I ride quite hard on the small tracks, it happens that I lose the front grip. Front of the bike is shaking quite intense, its even hard to save the bike. Was not sure if the front end is overloaded or unloaded (body position), but from the tyre wear it looks like I reached maximum lean angle on the front tire and am not event close to the max lean angle on the rear tire. Check the photo of both tires in the attachment. Click it and zoom it. My opinion is that the bike can handle more, but something is wrong with a setup or body position. I am running original dimension on front(110) and a bit bigger on the rear(140). I picked this dimension because I read that a lot of people racing the 250R use this dimension. And a word about the body position: this happens when I am not sitting, so its a knee down situation, body is aligned a bit to the front. Like you would like to put an elbow down, but without putting it down actually. Yeah, description is funny, hope you get it. So the question is if you guys racing this machine had similar issues with an unused rear tire? Is it normal behaviour for this tire combo (110 front and 140 rear)? If not, do you think that the problem is body position or bad setup? How to get more from the bike? Bike has a bit shorter wheelbase than standard (jack-up kit: 30mm = 1.2 inches). I also use lower woodcraft clip-ons, higher rear sets and stiffer fork springs. |
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February 20th, 2020, 10:38 PM | #2 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
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Still got the bike. The tire combo wear pattern is normal. You will never get to the edge of the rear unless you are doing a gnarly low side since the tire is being pinched on a narrow wheel. You may be over exaggerating your body position putting more weight up front than needed or leaning more than necessary.
Videos of you riding help for critique.
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February 21st, 2020, 01:07 AM | #3 |
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You need wider 17x4.0” rear wheel from Ninja 300 to reach edge of rear tyre. Also losing front-end first is common symptom of having bigger tyre in back. It still has grip when you’ve reach limit of front.
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February 22nd, 2020, 09:31 AM | #4 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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Are there any benefits to going to the 4 inch tire of the 300? I went with the Michelin RS 110 front and 140 rear. The rear does look much bigger than the stock 130. I plan on having the suspension set up correctly at the track. I have the Race Tech .90 springs with a heavier weight fork oil with pre load adjusters. The rear has the stock shock for now. Also have clip ons which lowers the front.
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February 23rd, 2020, 06:51 PM | #5 |
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If you want to get maximum grip out of 140 tyre, you must use 4.0" wheel. Otherwise tyre-profile will be pinched and more rounded than front. Meaning when you've reached edge of front, there's still unused rubber at edge of back. You're only using 130 of 140mm tyre and only getting 130mm worth of grip anyway.
Pinched rear tyre causes nervous , yet slower turn-in with unpredictable handling. This is why many, many 400 racers go down from stock 150 to 140 rear tyre. Better handling and more grip. Kawi dropped ball and didn't spec 4.5" rear rim which is better for 150 tyre. Using 4.0" rim just doesn't work well at track for performance with 150 tyre. In both these 300 & 400 examples, it's best to use optimum tyre-size for rims you have. In our AFM races, fastest 250s use 90/120 tyres for factory wheels. |
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February 23rd, 2020, 08:50 PM | #6 | |
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Name: John
Location: New Windsor
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February 24th, 2020, 03:51 AM | #7 | |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Mitch
Location: Europe
Join Date: Jul 2019 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R '08 Posts: 5
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Quote:
120 tires are a nice idea Never taught about it. I was still thinking about the thing you proposed last year, so to soften the front and put wider rubber (front and back). remember?: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...47#post1254647 In your AFM races, they run the stock dimension on the front? |
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February 24th, 2020, 06:42 PM | #8 |
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Name: Kevin
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R, Tiger 800 XRT Posts: 828
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Why don't you just get a 130 tire?
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February 24th, 2020, 08:07 PM | #9 |
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February 25th, 2020, 12:10 AM | #10 | |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Mitch
Location: Europe
Join Date: Jul 2019 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R '08 Posts: 5
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Quote:
About your AFM races... are they running stock front tire? |
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February 26th, 2020, 08:47 AM | #11 | |
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February 26th, 2020, 09:19 AM | #12 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
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February 26th, 2020, 12:09 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
https://motorcycleracetires.com/moto...p-moto3-tires/ Or V02 https://www.bridgestone.com/products.../detail/pr150/ These are extremely responsive; just think about turning and it's already leaned over! I just couldn't justify buying tyres every other weekend, so I stuck with what MotoAM JR-cup is using; Alpha 13-SP and Q3+ that I could get for $100/set. These are only sec or 2 off from race-slicks, but lasts an entire season! I'm still many seconds off those JR-cup guys, so I doubt tyres are holding me back. I gotta get more practice and training in. Particularly learning feel of tyres sliding, which is much, much easier to pick up with non-racing tyres, because they let go much, much more progressively. A lot of people make mistake of moving up to racing-slicks too soon before they learn how to manage slides. Racing-tyres have much more sharp-transition between grip to no-grip and you don't get much signal; they stick one moment, and then next, you're on ground! BTW - I was only thinking stickier front-tyre to make up for using 150 rear (Dunlop monopoly refused to sell me Alpha 13-SP in 130mm size, even though it's made). Now that more track tyres are available in 140, I'm going to use that instead. Front-end works fine under braking. Biggest issue I’m working on is calming down back tyre chatter when it starts lifting. I guess I’ll have to squeeze clutch as well when braking. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; February 27th, 2020 at 09:44 PM. |
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February 28th, 2020, 03:40 PM | #14 | |
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Name: Roger
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I'm running a pre-gen with new-gen wheels (so I could get away from the 16" wheels), 110-70 front 140-70 rear, Bridgestone RS-10. It could be the brand or the model tire you are using, they have different profiles. Or it may be that your riding on "small" tracks, the tracks I ride are both about 2.5 miles with corner speeds from around 40 mph to a little over 90 mph. Could also be your riding style, I am normally at or close to full throttle from the apex on. DSCF0002.jpg front has a little left to go DSCF0001.jpg rear is at the edge, but has never let go on a clean track
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March 8th, 2020, 06:33 PM | #15 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: john
Location: placerville
Join Date: Apr 2016 Motorcycle(s): ninja 300 Posts: 386
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we talked alot of mechanical reasons. how about tecnique. riding on the front versus the rear? overhanded trail braking deep into the turns, could be many reasons, poster up top requesting video was right on in my opinion.
heavy load on the front and not comming off brakes easy will unload to fast for the front. |
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March 13th, 2020, 07:54 PM | #16 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Lem
Location: Louisville
Join Date: Jan 2020 Motorcycle(s): z400, scooters, more than I can remember since 1975 Posts: 25
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Quote:
I came here to see if I could go to a 140 rear and this was the second post I clicked on! I have heard it said, but wanted some varification, and I got it I sort of think Kawasaki went with the 150 for vanity rather than function—I cant put my finger on it, but the combo feels a little odd. Not bad, I just thought the 140 with taller sidewall might be better. This might show, sometimes less is more |
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March 22nd, 2020, 03:45 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
than 140 rear tyre, which has more even and less loaded wear. With my more lopsided 110/150 Alpha 13-SP combo, due to Dunlop dealer monopoly refusing to sell me 130 or 140 rears, front tyre is easily overloaded. At limit, it's cooked and overheated all way to edge. Balls on edge is rubber that's scraped from centre to edge as tyre is sliding. It's so hot it even picks up bits and pieces off track on way back to pits! Meanwhile rear 150 tyre is much calmer and cooler. Even with double Ninjette's power, I can't break rear-end loose when leaned over. Gently rolling on throttle or whacking it open just causes smaller front-tyre to slide; back-end glued securely in place. I'm going down to 140 rear next and may even get 3.5" front wheel to run 120 tyre. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; March 23rd, 2020 at 04:38 PM. |
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March 23rd, 2020, 03:59 PM | #18 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Chris
Location: Bristol, UK
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 491
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Bikes handle better with similar width tyres. Wide rear tyres were added to allow powerful bikes to deliver grip & the look became a fad. Check your bicycle for an example.
A big difference in width & profile leads to a wobble couple. When at the right speed & lean angle it will either improve the turn, or at the wrong speed/lean make it worse! And as previously said, fitting the wrong size tyre to a rim does not help. One thing to try, is practice loosening your grip on the bars & feel how the bike turns. Lots of people counter steer went lent over when there is no need to, the wheels will find their own balance point in a corner & often washouts are caused by inappropriate counter steering. |
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March 28th, 2020, 08:47 AM | #19 |
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Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999
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This is a classic example of; ask 10 different people a question and get 10 different answers. Has anyone considered the 1.5" raise in rear ride height?
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March 28th, 2020, 11:05 AM | #20 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Chris
Location: Bristol, UK
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 491
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Yeah the joy of opinions. Mine is a ZZR250 so possibly similar geometry that the new gen.
But I added KR1-S front & rear with the forks converted to cartridges. The front wheel came back just over an inch but the swingarm is an inch longer, plus I fitted an Ohlins rear shock from a new gen, that raised the rear about 2”. The handling was good before, but now it’s amazing, it could do with another 30hp to take advantage of its handling. There is more weight over the front end & it steers like it’s on rails. |
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March 28th, 2020, 05:39 PM | #21 | |
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What does change is rake-angle from 26-degrees on new-gen to 24.5-degrees. Which significantly improves turn-in response. However, at steady-cornering at max-cornering , that doesn't change tyre-loading much. |
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April 2nd, 2020, 08:11 AM | #22 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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Since track season is on hold for awhile, I will be ordering the 4 inch rim from a 300 for my 250. I will have the shop swap the current tire which is a 140 to the 4 inch rim. I have a 150 on my 400 and just about to the edge on it. I will be going with the 140 as well when the 150 wears out.
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April 8th, 2020, 02:49 PM | #23 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
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April 9th, 2020, 04:26 PM | #24 | |
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April 10th, 2020, 02:45 AM | #25 |
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