November 19th, 2021, 01:07 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
2011 ninja 250 has no spark.
Hello all, new member but no stranger to bikes and motorsports. I recently picked up a project Ninja 250 2011, not running when I got it, but I am pretty handy with a multi meeter and good general mechanical knowledge. So I performed the usual tests, checked the coils they meter out alright, have 12v going to the igniter. has a new stator. and came with 2 spare pick up coils, all ohm out at around 110ohms. generator ohms out at .89ohm on each lead. the original is a little over 1ohm, not sure if that makes a huge difference but the manual states between .5 and .6ohms very small range. so naturally went to test the voltage output on the pick up coil and it only reads .8V and this is the same story for the other 2 so I am not thinking all 3 are bad. my question is there another way to test this and or make adjustments so it is closer to the flywheel because it doesn't look like there is when you pull the side cover off. I have jumped the coils as well and I get spark that way. not sure what else to try at this point but it seems like it is stemming from the pick up coil somehow.
Sorry for the long first post but I wanted to give as much detail as I could. Any assistance is obviously appreciated. |
|
November 19th, 2021, 01:20 PM | #2 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
Has the ignition switch been replaced? If so, search for information here about the 100 ohm resistor that needs to be in the grey wire. The original switch had it built in, but aftermarket replacements do not.
Welcome to the board, Neil! |
|
November 19th, 2021, 01:47 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Thank you Jim, I have the ignition switch off and took the cover off to see if it is original and it seems to be there is a resister in line with the gray wire, pretty much right on the plastic contact board. I metered it out and it comes in at 331ohms...Im assuming this is correct being that it is factory? but I really have no clue.
|
|
November 19th, 2021, 01:57 PM | #4 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
It's probably OK, although from what I've read, 100 ohms is normal. I don't think this is your problem, but I don't have enough experience with other resistance values like that to know for sure. Someone else here might.
As far as your 0.5 to 0.6 ohms spec that's measuring about an ohm... for low resistances like that you need to touch the meter leads together and get that reading, then subtract it from the reading you get when you make the measurement of the stator coils. I doubt if all three pickups are bad. To see their signal voltage you'd need to look at it on an oscilloscope. Using a meter set to AC just gives you average voltage, and the duty cycle is low, so the average is low. Have you checked all the wiring and connector contacts and ground connections? What is the battery voltage while you're cranking the engine? Last futzed with by Triple Jim; November 21st, 2021 at 01:19 PM. |
|
November 19th, 2021, 02:40 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
/moved to new-gen tech area
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
November 19th, 2021, 04:09 PM | #6 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
I have checked most of the connectors. the grounds look clean and solid but could remove and wire brush and reinstall. as for the battery if just came off the charger and is cranking over nicely. I will check for voltage drop tomorrow and see what im getting. it is a new battery within 3 months.
I am also under the impression that a PVA (Peak Voltage Adapter) is needed to obviously get the proper voltage output. |
|
November 19th, 2021, 04:28 PM | #7 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
|
|
November 19th, 2021, 08:08 PM | #8 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Do simplest and easiest tests first:
1. Key ON, do you have +12v going to each red-wire terminal on each coil? Use battery negative or chassis ground for negative multimeter probe. 2. Key ON, measure actual voltage on grey wire going into ignitor connector. Volts = ??? 3. Easy test for coil-triggering signals is connect 'noid light to coil primary wires (use test-leads with alligator clips). It will flash when there's grounding pulses to dump coil (requires passing test#1). 4. only if #3 fails test (no blinking) then you'll want more in-depth analysis of crank trigger signal with oscilloscope. Never heard of one failing on this model bike though. Implicit in these functional measurements is also testing wiring between individual components. Most of time, parts are perfectly fine, but it's wiring in between that's bad. This is due to using low-spec unsealed connectors with uncoated bare-brass terminals. Corrosion sets in over time and causes problems. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; November 21st, 2021 at 11:22 AM. |
|
November 20th, 2021, 06:50 PM | #9 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Dannoxyz, I will do those tests tomorrow and report back as to what I get. thanks for the info.
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 11:58 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
SO I have an update on the tests suggested. I have 12.4V going to the gray wire into the igniter.
I have 12.1V going to the red terminal on the coil on each side. while I was there I decided to test the other lead and also got 12.1V? not sure if I am suppose to get voltage on both since it does shut to ground in orer to release the energized spark to the plug. I decided to stop there with the testing, but I am going back out to see if I get a flashing signal from the coils with my test light. any ideas about 12V on each terminal would be helpful. Thanks again all! |
|
November 21st, 2021, 12:12 PM | #11 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
12v is supplied to the positive terminal of each coil. When the engine isn't running the negative side is not grounded, so the 12v appears there too. When the engine is running, the negative side is grounded for a length of time known as "dwell" to get current flowing in the coil primary. When it's time for a spark, the negative side of the coil is ungrounded to cause the voltage spike in the primary that's amplified by the turns ratio of the coil and sent the spark plug.
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 01:06 PM | #12 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
So if I understand this correctly, I may have an issue with the coil shunting to ground?
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 01:20 PM | #13 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
I was just explaining how the coils and ignition unit work together, since you asked. You haven't said anything to make me think anything is wrong yet.
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 01:54 PM | #14 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Yes I agree with your statement. My original question still stands as to why there is no spark when all these factors seem to check out. Am I missing something obvious?
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 02:04 PM | #15 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
Have you used the "noid light" that Danno suggested to see if the ignition unit is grounding the negative terminals of the coils when you crank the engine?
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 02:13 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
I did see that, I will have to get one. Are they accessible at auto part stores?
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 05:08 PM | #17 | ||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Quote:
Quote:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=367187 https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=366599 |
||
|
November 21st, 2021, 05:20 PM | #18 | |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
Quote:
The symptom of no spark with no voltage drop on the grey wire are consistent, so it seems something is wrong relative to this alleged 330 ohm resistor. |
|
|
November 21st, 2021, 05:29 PM | #19 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Yes correct, it does have a resister and the “resister alone” reads 330ohms and the voltage to the gray wire is 12.4 so basically no voltage drop. I am not aware there needed to be a drop but at this point I am at a loss for solutions. So I am lending my ear to
you guys to help out. |
|
November 21st, 2021, 05:44 PM | #20 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Final functional test of actual lower-voltage going into ignitor failed. That's why there's no spark.
Post photo of resistor on ignition switch. Most likely it's not properly wired up. Probably connected in parallel instead of in series with grey wire. In which case, electricity takes path of least resistance and flows around resistor unimpeded on grey wire. Final resistance of parallel circuit is: 1/R = 1/0 ohms+ 1/330 ohms R = 0 ohms With resistance = 0 regardless of resistor value, you'll get full battery voltage at ignitor and it'll think it's getting hot-wired and refuse to start. Whoever wired in original 100-ohm resistor probably messed up and wired in parallel and it didn't work (plug 100-ohm into equation above). So they tried higher resistance value, which also didn't work because electricity just bypassed resistor completely. So they gave up. Post photo of how resistor is connected to ignition switch and this will be very simple solution. |
|
November 21st, 2021, 06:15 PM | #21 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
thank you for the input I will take a pic in the morning and send it your way and let me know what you think. it does does look like it is in parallel but I will send a photo just to verify. thank you.
|
|
November 27th, 2021, 10:07 PM | #22 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
ninja no spark
Sorry I didn't get back right away with images. but here they are.
side note, I also noticed there are many different wattage ranges for the 100 ohm. what should I get there is 1/4W to 2W. Thanks in advance. (that is if I need one) |
|
November 28th, 2021, 05:45 AM | #23 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
1/4 watt is fine for this application.
If that resistor is over 300 ohms, but you have no voltage drop, that would indicate that current is not being drawn on that wire. Bad connection somewhere maybe? |
|
November 28th, 2021, 05:59 AM | #24 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
does it seem like the resistor is in proper place?
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 09:31 AM | #25 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Anthony
Location: Vinita, Ok
Join Date: Sep 2021 Motorcycle(s): 07 Kawasaki Ninja 250 Posts: 343
|
To me it looks like you have the wrong 100-ohm resistor when it should match the original is must likely a 100 ohm 1/4 Watts Carbon Film Resistors 1% Tolerance that is 5 color code (brown, black, black, black, brown) your look like its (brown, black, black, gold, red) ?.
Used the 2kΩ or 20kΩ setting it should range of about 1.01k or not below 0.97 from resistor it self Last futzed with by shspvr; November 28th, 2021 at 10:33 AM. |
|
November 28th, 2021, 12:37 PM | #26 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Already confirmed it's not 100-ohm resistor, but 330-ohms. This resistor should work just fine. It's installed properly to bridge input to output terminals.
Problem is grey wire is connected to wrong terminal. Do these measurements to confirm. Everything plugged in, key ON 1. measure voltage at resistor connection with wire 2. measure voltage at other resistor connection with no wire important that all wiring is connected as there's internal resistor in ignitor that lets small current flow. This creates resistor-ladder array with original resistor in ignition switch. Then voltage-drop can be measured by ignitor to confirm it's not being hot-wired. Also cold solder joints on resistor terminals shows this is not OEM. Some hack installed this resistor mod improperly. Compare to much better soldering on other wire terminals. |
|
November 28th, 2021, 12:52 PM | #27 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Can you elaborate just a little on the connection points for measuring the readings for the resister? If I can get a clear idea as to where to measure I will do that shortly. Thank you
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 12:54 PM | #28 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Sorry I didn't see the photo that was attached, I needed to refresh.
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 12:55 PM | #29 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Thank you for confirming that this is not oem, I had nothing else to compare to.
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 12:56 PM | #30 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
What should the voltage be between connection 1 and connection 2?
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 12:59 PM | #31 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Quote:
1. Take +voltage measurements at each end of resistor to find out. 2. Key OFF, measure at all other wire terminals. Which one has +12v with key OFF? Use battery-neg/chassis-ground for black multimeter probe. |
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 01:20 PM | #32 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Just took a quick measurement and the 1 connection with wire was 12.6V 2 without wire was 6.9V...
|
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
November 28th, 2021, 01:37 PM | #33 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Quote:
1. carefully unsolder grey wire from#1. Be careful not to disturb resistor. After wire removed, add a little more heat & solder so entire copper terminal is coated smoothly with solder 2. install grey wire on #2, being careful not to disturb resistor. Bike should now start.* * assuming carbs are factory-fresh clean. Depending upon how long it sat dormant, carbs may not be delivering sufficient petrol. |
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 01:38 PM | #34 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
wow, ok I will get to that and see what happens thanks and ill report soon.
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 02:03 PM | #35 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
I swapped the gray wire to the new location and I am getting 12V at both locations now. Still no spark. I will include the latest pic I took of the wire swap.
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 02:04 PM | #36 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
May still have to put a resister inline of the gray wire?
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 02:39 PM | #37 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
eh? so output terminal of resistor that previously had +6.9v is now delivering +12v? That's extremely odd... Might be that connections of ignition-switch is very non-standard/non-OEM. Might need to trace & test all terminals in ON/OFF positions to determine actual connections to draw schematic.
Quick check of wiring on ignition-switch connector where it plugs into bike-harness. Does grey wire on ignition-switch connector go straight across to grey-wire on harness connector? Yes, easiest at this point is to install 100-ohm resistor in-line with grey wire somewhere just ahead of ignitor connector. Then measure voltage of grey wire right where it goes into connector with key ON. Picture is example, use actual 1/4w 100-ohm resister. |
|
November 28th, 2021, 03:21 PM | #38 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
Yes after the swap it acted like there was no resister at all. As far as I know the wiring looks stock and the gray wire is across from one another. I will pick up a resister tomorrow throw that in and see what happens.
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 04:23 PM | #39 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Anthony
Location: Vinita, Ok
Join Date: Sep 2021 Motorcycle(s): 07 Kawasaki Ninja 250 Posts: 343
|
Quote:
I still think resistor is the wrong one so there for it sent the incorrect voltage |
|
|
November 28th, 2021, 04:55 PM | #40 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Neil
Location: Grand rapids
Join Date: Nov 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki ninja 250 Posts: 35
|
I will get a pack of 100ohm resisters and swap out the existing one and put one in line on the gray wire. One way or another we are going to get this thing running
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
No spark on 2004 ninja 250 after aftermarket ignition | Ihasnoclue | 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 1 | October 6th, 2021 04:12 PM |
No Spark!!! 2009 Ninja 250 EX250 Fuel Injected | ghutcheson | 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 8 | April 22nd, 2015 01:44 PM |
no spark need help 2004 ninja 250 | bond343 | 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 8 | August 29th, 2013 05:03 AM |
|
|