June 6th, 2011, 02:50 PM | #161 | |||
ninjette.org sage
Name: Chris
Location: Arkansas
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): EX250J Posts: 511
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Quote:
I should clarify that I meant you seem to lack hands-on experience when it comes to assmbly of mechanical parts and electronics. There's nothing wrong with this, but it stresses my point that you are going to have to learn new skill sets from scratch, and that incurs costs on your free time, which you must have plenty of. Now you're smarter than that. You know perfectly well what I mean. Jack of all trades, master of none, never earned anyone a fortune. Specialization in a few skills is what matters most. To spread yourself thin is to be inefficient. Quote:
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Btw, applying rationality to relationships is risky business and rarely works in a case by case basis, so I wouldn't recommend using it as an analogy for anything except insanity. |
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June 6th, 2011, 08:57 PM | #162 | ||||
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
I'm still going to try and I know that I have an edge over Leo, because I don't need to be a master of any trade. In fact, nobody actually needs to be good at something when good enough suffices. Quote:
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After 2 billion years of evolutionary optimization, I think we can form the hypothesis that relationships are not just a ridiculous folly of absurd pointlessness in ludicrous craziness. |
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June 7th, 2011, 06:00 AM | #163 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Chris
Location: Arkansas
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): EX250J Posts: 511
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-Leonardo Da Vinci was an outlier and you know it. He is one of the worst examples of the common human you could have come up with.
-I don't know why you bought a motorcycle? I bought mine because it gets 3 times the gas mileage of my Jeep and I commute 80 miles on good highway. Gas savings alone will pay for the bike in less than 5 years. Acquiring the skill is something I did to save money in the long run. Anything else is a fringe benefit. Gaining the riding skill comes with a slew of other positive benefits, including but not limited to patience, maintaining reflexes, increasing the incentive to stay in shape, and attracting the attention of the opposite sex. -You sound more like a scheister than anyone who has a solid grasp on how markets function. Then again, you are a troll so what you act like on here is all smoke and mirrors anyway. -utility has a metric. It's called money. You are willing to pay X more $ for a marginal increase in enjoyment from whatever source, be it entertainment, sex, drugs, candy etc. There are obvious exceptions, which I'm sure you can find on wikipedia, the troll's best friend. Go ahead and point them out. -After 2 billion years of evolutionary optimization, we still have to fight disease, cancer, genetic defects, and each other. Humans are far from perfect and are not always rational. No amount of evolution or tweaking by society will make us perfect or completely rational. I'm trying to help you here but you insist on arguing with anything and everything. You are only helping the argument that you are a troll. |
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June 7th, 2011, 06:25 AM | #164 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
Last futzed with by Racer x; June 7th, 2011 at 01:55 PM. |
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June 7th, 2011, 06:51 AM | #165 | |
Wartown, USA
Name: Bryan
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R SE, 2007 Ninja 650R, and assorted other bikes Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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June 7th, 2011, 07:04 AM | #166 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
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Killing the ignition is good but if plugs are glowing and the fuel mixture fires 90 deg BTDC and puts a hole in the stock cast pistons .The metal will blast into the chinese turbo and it will all be junk.That dose not take long to happen. Or the glowing plugs set the fuel on fire coming out of the injector. Like two tiny blow torches .This will cut the heads off the valves like a knife through butter.
I see this every month on engines built by people with real race teams and big budgets. |
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June 7th, 2011, 09:31 AM | #167 | |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
While it's a possibility, and even happened to someone on this board as listed above, it's a low-chance event. People have been doing coasting races on motorcycles by turning off their engines and racing downhill for decades, with transmission problems afterwards being a very rare event.
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June 7th, 2011, 10:16 AM | #168 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
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. On the dyno the wheel does not slow down . On the road you will slow down quick without an engine.What happen was the output shaft welded to the fifth gear sprocket.it could lock up I guess. When it happen to me the rear wheel locked up . There was no resistance between the slick tire and smooth drum of the dyno .On the road it would just grind to a stop .Then you would have no neutral.
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June 7th, 2011, 02:17 PM | #169 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
The only step you forgot between 'web search' and 'type' is 'think a lot'. The only problem I see is that you probably lack motivation, maybe because you think that it is so hard that you won't be able to do it, or you prefer getting better at doing something you already know the basics of. However, if you do have motivation, you don't need books, everything is on the web. You don't have to, but if you have an extra computer (old is good, but not too old) put Linux on it (you'll need another computer with web-access, as you'll get stuck about 20x, ask me how I know). I use Archlinux, but Debian is probably better for the purpose. That simplifies the process a lot, because all tools are free and you have lots of source code to study. Next you need to familiarize yourself with the GNU programming tools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_toolchain Once you're able to edit, compile, link and run a 'Hello World' example using only the command line (this is really pretty straightforward, but a valuable experience), you're ready to look for an IDE that rolls all those steps into one. There are tons of tutorials out there that cover this, but if you get stuck, send me a PM and I'll be glad to help you out, but I will not and cannot do the learning for you, because that defeats the purpose. |
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June 7th, 2011, 03:02 PM | #170 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
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Since motovation is the issue.I need an ignition system for.a turbocharged 250 Ninja. The BRT Tis system cost 375 dollars and works great. I know how to program that .So why reinvent the wheel? I can now spend 725 dollars on the rest. What is your budget for the ignition system alone?
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June 8th, 2011, 01:54 AM | #171 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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The turbo is in great condition. I don't intend on selling it.
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June 8th, 2011, 06:01 AM | #172 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
So, now your probably thinking: B-b-b-b-but you just spent over $200! In which case you obviously haven't considered that we'll definitely need a microcontroller for the fuel injection, but the PIC32 on the USB-Whacker can easily handle the ignition as well, therefore we don't need to budget it twice. We are simply using existing capacity more efficiently. Same reasoning applies to the tablet, not to forget, that one could even make a case that the tablet doesn't count at all. For the ignition circuit we'll essentially need 2 MOSFETs, 2-4 resistors and 2 diodes, which should total less than $5. Have a look at the following circuit board and the bill of materials here: http://dev.vernonjohnson.net/myPIC32/design.htm On the right side you can clearly see 16 MOSFETs (black thingies with 8 small legs - amplify voltage of the computer 3.3V pin to the voltage from the 12V battery) and 16 diodes (black thingies with 2 large legs - primarily a safety measure to prevent any current from flowing backward, which could damage the electronics). Remember, that board can handle up to 12 cylinders and 24 injectors. Btw, was the BRT Tis system running when you put a hole into your piston? http://www.sportisimoto-usa.com/ignition.php has no information on what's inside the box, so the first thing you need to do is open it up and take a peek inside. Look at the codes on the individual components and use google to fine out what they do. Just because that thing is programmable doesn't mean it will give you the timing resolution you need, for example, the software may let you program values that a device with a 32Khz crystal will have to round so extremely that at 12000RPM any fine tuning is impossible. OK. Just out of curiosity...did this thread in any way influence your intention not to sell it? Last futzed with by Lowspeed Lowside; June 8th, 2011 at 06:09 AM. Reason: Added 2nd quote |
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June 8th, 2011, 06:23 AM | #173 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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That is good .then you can get boost retard from the map sensor.
The holed piston has been traced to a clogged fuel jet in the nitrous system. I will have data on both cylinders with 2 wide bandO2 sensors and EGT in each side.all this will read out during a runon my dash and record to my datalogger. |
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June 9th, 2011, 06:05 AM | #174 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
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Combined ignition and fuel systems is the way to go . For my bike I am only going full throttle so I can get away with a pre written ignition map.But for street or track riding you would want the ignition tied to the manifold pressure. Much like the Microsquirt system.
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June 11th, 2011, 08:18 PM | #175 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
The only place a 10" tablet will fit is on top of the steering. I could dremel into the fairings, but in that case it's probably wiser to sell them off and use the proceeds to make my own. A "Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk"-design should be doable for less that $100 in materials (which are not to be included in the budget). Note to self: quit pulling the trigger early! I could have saved $10.61 and received the item faster. http://www.amazon.com/Zenithink-Touc.../dp/B0041FFJQA is now $152.88 incl. S&H. |
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June 12th, 2011, 10:07 AM | #176 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mick
Location: Dubai
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): EX250-H Posts: 34
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This thread has been very entertaining to read.
I will bite and ask a serious question - I haven't seen a mention of the cooling system. You have discussed earlier whether to use a single or double intercooler system. But what about the water cooling of the engine? If you double the output of the bike at the rear wheel, you will need to double the heat transfer from the radiator to the air. Additionally the air to the radiator will be most likely at least partially blocked by either the turbo, intercooler, intercooler piping, or at least the flux capacitor. You might need to find a radiator with double the thickness and a water pump with double the flow rate. Maybe you could allocate some budget for these too? Also with the turboed engine running hotter, the engine oil will get hotter. So you probably need an oil cooler as well. But it should ideally not block the path of the air to the intercooler(s) or upsized radiator or be behind or infront of the turbo. Maybe you could post up some pics of your bike with the additional components superimposed so we can study the packaging geometry. In addition to the turbo, intercooler(s), potential BOV, upsized radiator, oil cooler, there will need to supply pipes to the turbo for water and/or oil cooling. Custom exhuast manifold most likely 2-1 to the turbo impeller side, and then exit from the turbo I guess into the stock exhaust system which will need to flow approximately double the current amount of exhaust gas. You also need to connect the intercooler(s) to the compressor outlet and then from the intercooler outlet to your tweaked carb. If you could add these pipes to the marked up photos of your current bike it will allow us to discuss. |
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June 12th, 2011, 01:31 PM | #177 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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I have the radiator already made . It is a budget buster for this project at 425.00 dollars. But needed for a nitrous bike. It has a large resivour on each side and a thick core. The Intercooler will mount below it.and the oil cooler will be behind the radiators upper edge..I also use engine ice as coolant. Last run with nitrous. I got a 209 deg F as a high temp. That dose not even turn on the fan.
The nice thing about racing is I don't need an exhaust . About eight inch from the turbo will do. All of this cost money and is not part of a 1000 dollar turbo project. This is a link to the Turbo 250 in Japan. http://youtu.be/9M0jzJOBGZY It is the basic type of system I am planning. But I will have some differences. |
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June 13th, 2011, 02:10 AM | #178 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mick
Location: Dubai
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): EX250-H Posts: 34
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June 14th, 2011, 10:29 PM | #179 | ||||
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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I can tell why.
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think that engine cooling is going to be a problem as the rest of our bikes is not up to the task of handing a utilization pattern that accompanies a large increase in power. For example, to slow the bike down from 140mph (twice the kinetic energy E=1/2mv^2 compared to 100mph top speed) we'd actually need brakes twice the size, but if you accelerate to 140mph and decelerate to 0mph with stock brakes the engine will have twice the time to cool off during the deceleration phase. At 140mph we will flow 1.4x the amount of air through the cooler, which reduces the problem to where we get the other 1.4x times additional cooling. In which case we should probably first try to increase the specific heat capacity of the coolant by increasing the water content to e.g. 80%. I anticipate that 99% of the time the turbo will only be used for short 10-20s bursts, so one thing we might not be able to do is using max power going uphill for extended periods of time. Quote:
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Exhaust volume depends on pressure and temperature. For example, at twice the pressure the stock system would flow twice the mass. But, with all those slip-ons and performance exhaust system people have bought, stock mufflers and exhausts should be in excess supply, how about modifying two stock exhaust systems? |
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June 15th, 2011, 03:14 AM | #181 |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Correct.
Without upgrading brakes, suspension, etc. nobody will be able to use the extra power for extended periods of time anyway. For example, the couple of seconds it takes to accelerate to 100mph should be easily handled by the stock cooling system. To answer your follow-up question: I don't consider the ability to run my bike in Death Valley on a dyno from 1pm to 4pm at full throttle without the engine overheating a necessity. |
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June 15th, 2011, 04:32 AM | #182 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
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Quote:
The track at Maxton is 1 mile of acceleration. I stop with no brakes in less than 1/2mile from 120 no problem . I see turbo bikes blowing coolant in that distance. The track in Maine is 1.5 miles long Bonniville is 5 miles wide open. It is not about over heating .it is about maintaining consistant head temp to prevent detonation.. Last futzed with by Racer x; June 15th, 2011 at 05:34 AM. |
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June 15th, 2011, 06:35 AM | #183 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
If we wanted a motorcycle that can do what a 600cc supersport can do we'd get a 600cc supersport. What we'll get is a ninjette that can pass a truck a little faster. |
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June 15th, 2011, 07:47 AM | #185 |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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We can use the turbo for as long as the monitoring electronics tell us that it will not result in engine damage, which will depend on how much boost we're running.
Your question has already been answered in this post: But, once I've completed the project I'm willing to race you for the standard quarter mile. |
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June 15th, 2011, 08:24 AM | #186 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
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You have a lot of faith in the electronics.
My bike weighs in at 295 lb . I am looking for 12 seconds in the 1/4 . I Have gone 14 .1 all motor .But now I am lighter and have nitrous.I love drag racing. Let me find my shoes. We will be racing the mile in Wilmington Ohio all next year. You can come out and take the blown fuel 250-4 record. I set it at 121mph in 2010. You should be able to break that . Last futzed with by Racer x; June 15th, 2011 at 08:02 PM. |
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June 15th, 2011, 10:56 AM | #187 |
Name: ...
Location: ...
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): ... Posts: 999
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I will volunteer as a set of eyes to review to the software written for the control system. I have written synchronous and asynchronous control software for many years.
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June 16th, 2011, 10:46 PM | #188 |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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More or less mandated by the budget constraints. For example we can get 4 pressure sensors for $13 incl. S&H[*], because we can have the USB-Whacker do the processing and the tablet do the displaying.
Speaking of tablets, a device branded Zepad just got delivered way ahead of schedule. It has slightly better features than expected, e.g. Android 2.2 and 4GB of flash. Although we'll need neither as we're most likely going to run Linux with our custom motorcycle dashboard software, which together shouldn't require more than a few hundred MB. Ethernet adapter, stylus pen and Sennheiser MX500 earbuds are the included accessories. No cables for the two USB ports, though. As for appearances, I would have preferred all of the plastic to be black instead of part silver and the home-button makes the up-to-an-inch-wide bezels in landscape view slightly asymmetric, but maybe I'm being a little too picky. [*]The following IC is good for up to 44psi of pressure: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/...code=MPXH6300A |
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June 17th, 2011, 04:55 AM | #189 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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This thread keeps getting better and better.
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June 17th, 2011, 06:02 AM | #190 |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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It's too early to get a turbo, but...
...I think we should choose the KP35.
If anybody here thinks this is definitely the wrong turbo, now is your chance to show that your judgement is better than mine. If you're not being sarcastic, thanks for the support. Sorry to break the news that I think the turbo you have on your shelf isn't the best choice. Last futzed with by Lowspeed Lowside; June 17th, 2011 at 07:34 AM. |
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June 17th, 2011, 01:32 PM | #191 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
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Given a choice I would go with a smaller turbo.Getting the turbo to spool up seems to be an issue . Limiting boost to 9 psi will save on the intercooler. But if the compressor map is good then it may be a good choice.Can you post up the maps?
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June 17th, 2011, 01:33 PM | #192 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Greg
Location: Rhode Island
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Is there even a bike yet? Pictures? Not sketches.
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June 17th, 2011, 02:00 PM | #193 | |
Tightwad Tinker
Name: Hans
Location: Lexington, Ky
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R Posts: 161
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Quote:
I figure a larger turbo will simply amplify the idiosyncratic behavior of the stock bike waking up above 9000 RPM. Link to map was included in my post. Here it is again: KP35 compressor map Dude, it was stated several times that we are currently in the R&D phase for a project scheduled for the winter season. Taking our bikes apart now without having a complete picture of what components we'll need and how they are going to fit together is a recipe for frustration, so stop pushing. |
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June 17th, 2011, 05:39 PM | #194 |
Ridin Dirty
Name: Ed
Location: Delaware
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 white se 250r , 2008 zx6R Posts: 921
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not to sway away from the turbo topic, but since this is a forced induction thread, why not..ive seen some of the bigger bikes running superchargers, didnt even know that was possible on a bike..lol! is a supercharger a possibility on the 250??
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June 17th, 2011, 05:57 PM | #195 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Greg
Location: Rhode Island
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Quote:
Posted via Mobile Device |
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June 17th, 2011, 09:17 PM | #197 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
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Superchargin a 250 ninja would be cool. Adding a pully for the belt is not cheap.
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June 17th, 2011, 09:32 PM | #198 |
Ridin Dirty
Name: Ed
Location: Delaware
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 white se 250r , 2008 zx6R Posts: 921
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cheaper or just as costly as a turbo project?
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June 17th, 2011, 09:49 PM | #199 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
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Cost about the same BUT more custom made engine parts.so if it blows up yopu have to start over.At least with a turbo . Most will be salvagable. Plus there is some power loss with the belt drive. I have a friend building a 4 cylinder. Honda 250 with a blower.
Last futzed with by Racer x; June 18th, 2011 at 04:34 AM. |
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June 18th, 2011, 04:42 AM | #200 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
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It is hard to say there is a bike. I have my bike I can turbo. But I am going to start over with a ground up bike. Starting with a ZZR250 frame.then build every piece.Like I have done with my nitrous bike.
Hans is working on a turbo for the stock bike utilizing as much factory parts as possible. Two very different approches. One street bike One race bike. There is no time limit. Hans needs to spend as little money as possible to keep things within a budget.I have no money and race a full schedual .I am using my nitrous bike to sort out problems with adding power. Like the clutch for instance. We are having. Fun with this but things are moving along |
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