Red Light Taunters

[gilmorec61]

Okay, so has anybody been driving their bike on a really desolate road, and come up to a stop light and needed to turn but the lights red and you wait there... And wait...and wait...and wait...until a car comes up behind you and triggers the sensor for the light to turn green.

Ever happen to anyone?

A couple days ago i was going to school, and i got stopped at a redlight turning left, and i swear i was there for like 5-10 minutes before a car came behind me and triggered it... Kinda wanted to go through, no one was around, but the better side of me told me not to...

Anyways just something interesting i thought id ask everyone

[outasight20]

When this happens to me and no one's around, I'll just go. Not worth waiting and if you got pulled over just explain to the cop and I'm sure he/she would understand.

[Scattcatt]

Personally I've learned where these traffic lights are on my route and I do my best to avoid them. My brother actually gets off of his bike, walks to the light, and hits the cross walk button lol

[Malicious Logic]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Personally I've learned where these traffic lights are on my route and I do my best to avoid them. My brother actually gets off of his bike, walks to the light, and hits the cross walk button lol

Wow...that's actually a pretty good idea. In Oklahoma, you're allowed to go if you've been waiting at the light for awhile and it's obvious it's not going to turn. Of course, you have to make sure it's clear and all that...and it doesn't necessarily protect you from that one cop, hiding in plain sight who pulls you over cuz he didn't see that you waited.

[gilmorec61]

Personally I've learned where these traffic lights are on my route and I do my best to avoid them. My brother actually gets off of his bike, walks to the light, and hits the cross walk button lol

Sounds like a good idea lol. Some lights, like the one i go to are number one, unavoidable, and two dont have cross walk buttons. But if it happens to me again, and i am SURE no one is around i might just go for it. Or i could go right, do a you turn and hit the green on that side of the intersection

[Gorilla25]

if im riding any time after 11p and its like that, i'll run over to hit the cross walk button.

[nickjpass]

This happens all the time. It's because the bike is too light, or doesn't have enough metal to activate the magnetic sensors. Some people have reported that putting powerful magnets on the bottom of the bike can help.

[gilmorec61]

This happens all the time. It's because the bike is too light, or doesn't have enough metal to activate the magnetic sensors. Some people have reported that putting powerful magnets on the bottom of the bike can help.

Yeah i though it was because the bike was too light, and makes sense to because with the bike + me, its still easily under 500lbs...most cars are at least half a ton id imagine now days. But ive never heard of magnetic sensors that trigger red lights, ive always heard of the weight sensor, or like a camera sensor. But interesting.

[nickjpass]

These :



See those two lines the car's tires are on? Those are the senors, magnetic or a weight sensor, I don't know.

The inductive loops are looking for metal mass to change their inductance, the magnet does not give you mass, it ools the loop by the voltage induced in the loop as the magnet moves over it. The key word is "moves", the magnetic device only works as you pass over the loop, typically at about 5 mph.

[k-os]

Originally Posted by gilmorec61

Yeah i though it was because the bike was too light, and makes sense to because with the bike + me, its still easily under 500lbs...most cars are at least half a ton id imagine now days. But ive never heard of magnetic sensors that trigger red lights, ive always heard of the weight sensor, or like a camera sensor. But interesting.

Most standard cars are OVER one ton (2,000lbs). I'd guess the average weight is around 3,000lbs.

[gilmorec61]

Most standard cars are OVER one ton (2,000lbs). I'd guess the average weight is around 3,000lbs.

Yeah i figured, but i was also putting in context some of todays smart cars which are almost nothing.

These :



See those two lines the car's tires are on? Those are the senors, magnetic or a weight sensor, I don't know.

The inductive loops are looking for metal mass to change their inductance, the magnet does not give you mass, it ools the loop by the voltage induced in the loop as the magnet moves over it. The key word is "moves", the magnetic device only works as you pass over the loop, typically at about 5 mph.

I always thought those were the weight sensor type, but now that i know magnetic ones are existant, it could go both ways. And that could definently be a reason our little ninjas dont set off the magnetic one, theres not as much metal like you said.

[nickjpass]

I'm surprised I know so much, even though I totally just stole that from Ninja 250 FAQ. I actually knew what I was reading though! Makes me proud

[gilmorec61]

I'm surprised I know so much, even though I totally just stole that from Ninja 250 FAQ. I actually knew what I was reading though! Makes me proud

lol still, you used your resources, it counts

[nickjpass]

[bluesinorbit]

Check the law in your state.

[Kevin2109]

Move to cali so you can run them

[sombo]

First, the weight has nothing to do with it. The sensors do not operate on pressure. They are closed loop wire circuits that measure inductance and are affected by the magnetism of a vehicle positioned over those lines you see in the road. Too many times they are set too high to register a motorcycle.

Second, most states have some form of law about this situation. Some states make it a law that the sensors have to register the presence of a motorcycle and that it is up to the local authorities to fix them when reported. This is usually met with lazy city officials not fixing them and cops not caring about them not working but rather willing to dish out tickets to "bikers". Other states have a time or cycle limit that you must wait for, and then when clear you may proceed. These work better and have less hassle since the cops seem more lenient about it than in the states that have the "fix it" signal laws.

Check your state for what the laws there state. I know here in FL it states that if the light does not change within 3 minutes that you are allowed to proceed when clear.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

My brother actually gets off of his bike, walks to the light, and hits the cross walk button lol

Been there. Done that. Perfectly legal.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Been there. Done that. Perfectly legal.

I have yet to actually have to do this, I've done the right turn, u-turn, right turn thing a time or two before but my routes to and from class are typically heavily traveled, even at 5 in the morning so I normally have no problems

[akshay11]

Here in minnesota the rule for motorcycles is that if your waiting at a red light for an "unreasonable" amount of time, you have the right to go through as long as you yield to any traffic.

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by trixter

To a point. Weight is a function of mass and most of the mass on a bike is from metal. Most of that metal interacts with magnetic fields. So in laymen terms its weight In more complex terms its a function of magnetically reactive material (which includes some non-ferrous materials) and proximity. It takes more mass at a distance to equal the same change in inductance up close.

Now you can influence magnetic fields with electricity, in particular radio. Radio transmitters transmit both an electric and magnetic wave which travel together (but they are distinct waves). A coil with current through it makes a magnet. Some claim that such a magnet in close proximity to the sensor can be strong enough (often when combined with the weak influence of the bike) to trip the sensor. Some have even claimed speaker magnets are strong enough especially when on a center stand so when you flip it down at the light it will trip the sensor (I doubt that claim but accept it might work).

The VA DOT motorcycle handbook reportedly states to rev your engine, then if that doesnt work roll back and forth over the sensor to try to get in its sweet spot. If that fails to stop and start your bike as the ignition can send off magical radio waves (yeah it really does). I do not know how well this works but that is what they suggest.

As stated before I live in the land of lane splitting and ignoring red lights if they dont detect the bike


I should point out for giggles that devices that send out light pulses to trigger stop lights (typically in the infrared spectrum) are illegal. You should not spend $10-20 at a local electronics store and build one. That would be bad. Actually it is bad because it messes up the traffic patterns all around you. http://www.wired.com/science/discove.../2005/08/68507

[squaregamer476]

Originally Posted by gilmorec61

Okay, so has anybody been driving their bike on a really desolate road, and come up to a stop light and needed to turn but the lights red and you wait there... And wait...and wait...and wait...until a car comes up behind you and triggers the sensor for the light to turn green.

Ever happen to anyone?

A couple days ago i was going to school, and i got stopped at a redlight turning left, and i swear i was there for like 5-10 minutes before a car came behind me and triggered it... Kinda wanted to go through, no one was around, but the better side of me told me not to...

Anyways just something interesting i thought id ask everyone

something fun, plz read. One of the best articles i seen. Came from someones thread. And yes, I now run the red lights if I cant trigger them.


http://www.cracked.com/article_19217...otorcycle.html

[sombo]

Originally Posted by trixter

To a point. Weight is a function of mass and most of the mass on a bike is from metal. Most of that metal interacts with magnetic fields. So in laymen terms its weight In more complex terms its a function of magnetically reactive material (which includes some non-ferrous materials) and proximity. It takes more mass at a distance to equal the same change in inductance up close.

Now you can influence magnetic fields with electricity, in particular radio. Radio transmitters transmit both an electric and magnetic wave which travel together (but they are distinct waves). A coil with current through it makes a magnet. Some claim that such a magnet in close proximity to the sensor can be strong enough (often when combined with the weak influence of the bike) to trip the sensor. Some have even claimed speaker magnets are strong enough especially when on a center stand so when you flip it down at the light it will trip the sensor (I doubt that claim but accept it might work).

The VA DOT motorcycle handbook reportedly states to rev your engine, then if that doesnt work roll back and forth over the sensor to try to get in its sweet spot. If that fails to stop and start your bike as the ignition can send off magical radio waves (yeah it really does). I do not know how well this works but that is what they suggest.

As stated before I live in the land of lane splitting and ignoring red lights if they dont detect the bike


I should point out for giggles that devices that send out light pulses to trigger stop lights (typically in the infrared spectrum) are illegal. You should not spend $10-20 at a local electronics store and build one. That would be bad. Actually it is bad because it messes up the traffic patterns all around you. http://www.wired.com/science/discove.../2005/08/68507

You have issues. This is a motorcycle forum, not a science forum. Weight has very little to do with magnetism. You can have two pieces of material of the same weight with different magnetic potentials. It's all in the material used. The bike's weight, or as you put it, the mass of the metal used that has the affect. It's the magnetic potential and distance from the inductive field that is the problem. Cars have solid steel axles with high magnetic potential rather close to the ground. Most bikes tend to have aluminum wheels(which is so weak in magnetic potential it is labeled as non-magnetic) and almost no steel parts close to the ground. Cruisers have less problem with this because their steel frames are closer and do a better job of influencing the inductive loop.

As for the IR beams for lights. There are very few that use those sensors and only emergency personal are allowed to use those.

[massacremasses]

nice some good amo if I get pulled over for running a red light for it now going off...


Most of our lights around here have cameras or sensors on the top of the light poles so I havent had much trouble...

[massacremasses]

get me a PDF if you make one of those

[sombo]

Originally Posted by trixter

At least I do not try to engage in a scientific discussion after saying that science has no place on a motorcycle forum.

Never said it had no place, was just giving you a hard time was all. :P

Originally Posted by trixter

Yeah I covered that. I even made a comment about how some non-ferrous materials are magnetic.

I also covered that it was a function of both proximity and mass. Not just one or the other. For proof why dont you go out in the road during rush hour and perform an experiment. Using a 100 pound reactive object see if you can get the sensor to trip when the object is right next to the sensor and when the object is a few feet above the sensor. It takes more mass at distance to have the same effect.

Again, mass is less of a factor than you think. You can change the magnetic potential of an object w/o affecting it's mass. Have you never magnetized your tools? By using one of these you can make a normal steel tool become magnetic or lose it's magnetism. I used to use one of these at a former job, works great. It works by changing the steels own magnetic pattern so it becomes stronger and more focused so as to act like a magnet itself.

Originally Posted by trixter

If you are going to complain about a scientific post on a motorcycle forum you probably should not go on some scientific rant in the same post. Maybe you can occupy yourself with the physics thread elsewhere when talking about spinning wheels of a motorcycle in a turn.

If you are going to suggest that someone is incorrect maybe you should not just repeat what they said using slightly different words.

Again, was only giving you a hard time to start with. It wasn't a rant, it was a discussion and I did not say the same thing as you with different words.

Originally Posted by trixter

Yeah, I said they were illegal. "only for emergency personal[sic]" (the [sic] means the misspelling is yours, if you are so into semantics I guess I should have liberties to comment on spelling). They are "only" because of a law, thus it is illegal to do. I even linked to an article that discussed it being illegal.

Further they exist all over, it is way more than "very few". This is what prompted the law. If it were only a few lights nationally there would not have been a federal law to ban the devices. There would also not be state laws that ban such devices. In general the more urban the area the more those sensors are used. The less urban the less traffic the less need so they dont invest the money. 82% of the US lives in an urban area. Most people in the US (where I was talking about because um well I mentioned laws and they are not global) live in proximity to the light sensors.

I was agreeing with you about their legality. Yes I realize now I used the wrong spelling. I'm human, it happens. Thank you for correcting me mr spelling nazi.

I disagree with you on how many lights there are using the IR sensors. There doesn't have to be massive amounts of anything for the government to make a law about it. Don't forget that laws also differ from city to city and state to state. I can tell you that most of the places I've lived in did not have many of the IR sensors. I have only found a few of them in certain places around Orlando. Most of the greater Orlando area, most of PA in general, and virtually everywhere outside of the major cities have not yet installed them due to cost vs use. If a city deems they are needed due to high usage by the emergency personnel then they will use them. But many places still don't have them.

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by trixter

I will start another thread about it if I decide to do it. I probably will just not sure of the format and I would like to make it in a way that others can add to it especially for other states (I am not going to research every state out there).

It will be a lot like the AMA one I think I posted earlier in this thread (posted it last night in some thread anyway) just more up to date and complete

Since im from CA thats all I care about

[iceknyght]

There's a red light left turn that goes into my neighborhood that is horrible... Being on the bike alone does not trigger the sensor, I too have to wait for someone to come up behind me... Luckily, the longest I have had to wait is 2 cycles, but still kind of annoying...

[sombo]

Originally Posted by trixter

Ok I give up you are correct a big magnet has the same magnetic force as a small magnet of the same material. Mass has nothing to do with it. It is all just magic.

See, I knew you would come around. I mean don't you know that all science is magic?

I think we went completely overboard here with this whole debate. It started off with just that weight did not affect the sensors for traffic lights. We never should have brought it to the level we did and I'm just as much to blame for that. But the point is that the weight of the vehicle won't mean as much as how close it has good old fashioned steel closer to the road sensors. I'm sure the Prowler has had issues with some sensors since it's almost all aluminum and fiberglass. Well I guess the axles and drive shaft are probably still steel, not sure, never looked too much into them other then they have an aluminum motor and frame. With motorcycles using more aluminum for frames it won't matter how heavy/light they are since aluminum has virtually no magnetic properties. Don't believe me, take a pound of steel, iron, and aluminum and test it out yourself.

[massacremasses]

Too much science.

[Klondike1020]

My cruiser is not immune to this problem . I usually resort to a right turn u turn . Then when I get pulled over I start recounting the reasons why it's frusterating to be a motorcyclist/biker and thank the officer for my ticket.

[CZroe]

I got the "High Power" Green Light Trigger HP and tried some known problematic light in San Diego that always worked in a car but not the bike. Even moving back and forth and leaning and running the starter with the kickstand down with the GLT HP did nothing.

I eventually took it off because it just didn't work.

Anyway, Newnan is full of the long oval inductive loop sensors. Try to put your rims directly on one of the lines you see cut into the pavement. It doesn't always work though.

There was one in Peachtree City that I waited half an hour at before deciding to just push my bike through the crosswalk like I would a shopping cart or any other rolling piece of property, like luggage. The moment I started, a cop showed up and asked me a bunch of questions. He said he understood my frustration and didn't ticket me, but... damn.

[MikeBudd]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I got the "High Power" Green Light Trigger HP and tried some known problematic light in San Diego that always worked in a car but not the bike. Even moving back and forth and leaning and running the starter with the kickstand down with the GLT HP did nothing.

I eventually took it off because it just didn't work.

Anyway, Newnan is full of the long oval inductive loop sensors. Try to put your rims directly on one of the lines you see cut into the pavement. It doesn't always work though.

There was one in Peachtree City that I waited half an hour at before deciding to just push my bike through the crosswalk like I would a shopping cart or any other rolling piece of property, like luggage. The moment I started, a cop showed up and asked me a bunch of questions. He said he understood my frustration and didn't ticket me, but... damn.

I seriously lol'd

[NDspd]

There have been a few times I've wanted to get off and walk. But, I'm not comfortable in walking with my bike, what's the best way to do it? I feel as if I have to exert myself too much.

[gilmorec61]

I got the "High Power" Green Light Trigger HP and tried some known problematic light in San Diego that always worked in a car but not the bike. Even moving back and forth and leaning and running the starter with the kickstand down with the GLT HP did nothing.

I eventually took it off because it just didn't work.

Anyway, Newnan is full of the long oval inductive loop sensors. Try to put your rims directly on one of the lines you see cut into the pavement. It doesn't always work though.

There was one in Peachtree City that I waited half an hour at before deciding to just push my bike through the crosswalk like I would a shopping cart or any other rolling piece of property, like luggage. The moment I started, a cop showed up and asked me a bunch of questions. He said he understood my frustration and didn't ticket me, but... damn.

They make a tool for that?? Interesting, but i wouldnt get it. And yeah, you know where Fisher road and Raymond Hill Road intersect? Sometimes when im coming from CEC, ill pull up to that light to turn left, and not a car will be there and ill be stuck there for like 5 minutes....Its a PITA! But wow, thats crazy, cops in PTC are always right behind you no matter where you are... You cant get a ticket for walking across a intersection?? Idk, weird stuff, least you didnt get in trouble!

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by trixter

There are several different systems out there, some legal some not.

The ones that emulate busses, police cars, etc are illegal. The bus ones only hold the green they do not cause it to turn green but its the same system, blinky IR light (which will show up on a CCD camera like the cop dash cam or if the intersection has a camera it will show there too as a really bright light).

The ones that emulate a vehicle (disturb the magnetic field the loop generates) are legal. They are of questionable performance, and because there are so many different makers of them one may work and another from someone else that looks and is advertised the same may not. People have put big speaker magnets on their center stand, which they lower over the coil, others have tried electromagnets (which really that is what turning the bike off and starting does, the starter fires off a magnetic field as its electric motor cranks).

The reality is that it is a combination of how much the device disturbs that particular sensor, and it will disturb it more the closer it is. How close your bike is to triggering it in the first place (those devices usually just push it over the threshold as opposed to being able ot trigger on their own), etc.

In California they are legally required to fix any broken light. Report them as often as you need to, get your friends to report them, get everyone riders or not to report them. This can also help by showing a history of reported malfunctions should you decide to take advantage of the "malfunctioning signal" provision in CA law and treat the light as a stop sign. The law states they have to sense motorcycles and bicycles, if it is never reported they may not know to fix it.

I looked for a ""malfunctioning signal" provision in relation to sensors and could not find anything in CA code. It pained me the entire time I lived there. Easy as pie to find the law in GA. Anyway, I never got a single one fixed in SD and I had the number to report them on speed-dial. Some were even right near major motorcycle dealers and would catch customers on test drives. Potential customers frustrated by the realities of commuting on a motorcycle may be less inclined to buy, so I'd consider that a direct and negative consequence that the city can be sued for. My routes to and from work were dictated by the problematic signals and, because I worked grave shifts, priority was always given to the wrong lanes and cars would not come to my rescue for no matter how long I waited. I even had a mental map of which lanes worked better than others.

And, yeah, I hate it when someone points out that they aren't sensing magnetism "so magnets won't work." They measure your disruptive effect on an inductive electromagnetic field and what better to disrupt it with than a magnet? The GLT HP says that you need to be moving for the effect to work but no amount of creeping past, walking forward and backward, or leaning all over the place would trigger the ones I already knew to be functional for cars but problematic for motorcycles.