May 1st, 2012, 05:34 AM | #81 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: D
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Matt can you post a photo of the new TB and fuel rail? Its been 3 weeks now. What enhancements were made over the original?
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May 1st, 2012, 06:10 AM | #82 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: MI
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 169
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We have not only the new TB, but also the new boots, which fit the twin TB with the grooves; and the new enhanced fuel tap, and the new pressure regulator.
The new TB will come with a CNC-ed fuel rail. All TBs will be installed with injectors sitting on the top, like OEM ones. New calibrations will also be released for the better air flow of the new TB. It's gonna be a new gen kit. I will publish the pictures soon. |
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May 1st, 2012, 08:03 AM | #83 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jason
Location: Houston, TX
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Awesome news Matt. Does this mean we need to get 650 throttle and decel cables?
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May 1st, 2012, 08:29 AM | #84 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: MI
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 169
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Quote:
I believe by re-route the stock cables, you should be able do it. This means you need to route the stock cables over the cylinder header, and to the other side. Soon you will see pictures. Matt |
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May 1st, 2012, 02:41 PM | #85 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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I'd love to see the pictures. When are you planning to ship them out to the group buyers?
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May 1st, 2012, 03:48 PM | #86 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: MI
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May 1st, 2012, 04:11 PM | #87 | |
CPT Falcon
Name: J.Emmett Turner
Location: Newnan, GA
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.
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I'm all of a sudden interested in this kit again.
Edit: Quote:
Sony had to take back opened PS2s for the DRE issue after their class-action settlement just like Microsoft had to accept opened XBOX 360 consoles when they finally fessed up and extended the warranties to cover it AFTER people opened their warranty-less boxes. It still did nothing for those who sold them devalued (not working), parted them out, etc, so they still screwed a ton of customers before they supposedly "made it right." |
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May 1st, 2012, 04:12 PM | #88 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: D
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I trust you are joking. Since there is NO WAY to make the old TB work without modifying it.
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May 1st, 2012, 04:21 PM | #89 |
CPT Falcon
Name: J.Emmett Turner
Location: Newnan, GA
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May 1st, 2012, 04:26 PM | #90 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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I figured I'd give him a chance to say that he was just joking.
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May 1st, 2012, 04:30 PM | #91 |
CPT Falcon
Name: J.Emmett Turner
Location: Newnan, GA
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He had better be. Taking all of your trial and error to improve the product and not even taking care of you? That's how you alienate customers and turn the public against you and is no way to run a business.
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May 1st, 2012, 04:42 PM | #92 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Yeah, considering the TB was defective before it was even shipped to me. If he really does have a new TB, why would he care about the old ones? They are worthless if he has new ones. Its not like he would re-sell them to new customers.
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May 1st, 2012, 07:29 PM | #93 | |||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Brian
Location: Detroit, MI
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Not even sure I want to be a part of this one...
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Okay, I'm done playing devil's advocate. I understand @n4mwd's position but I also understand why ecotrons as a business said what they did. Hopefully some kind of resolution can be had that doesn't put either party in a difficult position.
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May 1st, 2012, 08:15 PM | #94 |
CPT Falcon
Name: J.Emmett Turner
Location: Newnan, GA
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.
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I didn't order one nor am I mechanically inclined, so what I gathered was that certain parts didn't fit right, other parts fit but would fail or were not optimal, things had to be improvised to get realistic use, and the whole thing was a waste of money unless you were just using it with modifications as a shortcut to a custom EFI setup you could have made without the kit. IMO, if it was "broken" design already and the manufacturer recognizes and warrants that specific failure with a replacement, then it shouldn't matter what you did to it in the mean time unless the manufacturer promised this from the start and requested the bad parts immediately.
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May 1st, 2012, 08:21 PM | #95 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Byron
Location: Reno, NV
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja ex250 1990 Posts: 761
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Quote:
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1990 250F. ex300 motor swap, 15/42 gearing, flush side markers, newgen intergrated front fairing, rear integrated turn signals, DB Touring Bubble, zx600 rear shock, Custom DanMoto Exhaust |
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May 1st, 2012, 08:44 PM | #96 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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@CZroe That's the thing. It works just fine. Sure there are modifications that would make it "better" but it does work.
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2009 Ninja 250R SE Green Sport Touring Style: ZG ST; Symtec heated grips; RAM GPS w/ mUSB; DIY reshaped seat; DIY Givi E21 Sidecases; 15T sprocket |
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May 2nd, 2012, 04:50 AM | #97 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Again, what does it matter that I have modified my defective TB trying to make it work? According to Matt, he has a brand new TB to replace it. That's acknowledgment that its a bad part right there.
There are several of the group buyers out there that have not attempted to install the kit and still have theirs in a box. Will THEY get one? Probably not. I still haven't seen any pictures of the new components. What about my fuel tap and regulator? Those have NOT been modified in any way. But he's not sending me those replacements out either. As far as whether it works or not, I think its very suspicious that none of the group buyers who have installed theirs have posted to @choneofakind 's 0-60 video challenge thread. Seems that if the TB was that good, somebody would have posted something. As far as customer service, Matt did email me and offer to buy back the kit for about $330. I told him at that time that I had modified my TB and wouldn't ask him to take it back - nor would I accept only $330. He wrote back saying that he knew that my TB was modified and that it didn't matter. Now he has changed his tune and said that it does matter now that he claims to have a total replacement for it. And as far as whether I have been helpful on this thread or not, if the consensus is that I haven't, then I will keep future EFI engineering designs private.
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May 2nd, 2012, 08:08 AM | #98 | |
CPT Falcon
Name: J.Emmett Turner
Location: Newnan, GA
Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.
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May 2nd, 2012, 08:29 AM | #99 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jason
Location: Houston, TX
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I have no interest in recording 0-60 performance. I got the kit to resolve a carb issued that I had and saw it as an opportunity to improve cold starting and eliminating shimming of needles. The bike feels like it has more pep, but my bike was not running right on the carbs.
The kit is installed in my bike as delivered and is working. All issues that I have had have been resolved by @ecotrons. There are things that could be improved (and i believe @ecotrons is making the effort to make improvements) but nothing I see as unsafe. For the cost, the kit has lived up to my expectations. |
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May 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM | #100 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Byron
Location: Reno, NV
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja ex250 1990 Posts: 761
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Quote:
and i would do the 0-60 challenge just bc i want to i just havent gotten a working speedo to test that out. But just bc none of us wanted to participate doesnt mean anything.
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1990 250F. ex300 motor swap, 15/42 gearing, flush side markers, newgen intergrated front fairing, rear integrated turn signals, DB Touring Bubble, zx600 rear shock, Custom DanMoto Exhaust |
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May 2nd, 2012, 09:02 AM | #101 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Byron
Location: Reno, NV
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja ex250 1990 Posts: 761
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Quote:
If u look back at all your post its nothing but saying it is defective and unsafe and yea yea. But in all reality you didnt install the EFI kit out of the box. U began modifying it over and over again. And u keep blaming Ecotrons. I think it was very generous to offer you even partial refund after what you did and what you have said. But yea you should just jump on the band wagon with the rest of us and just get it running the way it came.
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1990 250F. ex300 motor swap, 15/42 gearing, flush side markers, newgen intergrated front fairing, rear integrated turn signals, DB Touring Bubble, zx600 rear shock, Custom DanMoto Exhaust |
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May 2nd, 2012, 02:04 PM | #102 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Did I pay the same price as everyone else? Yes.
Am I entitled to the same level of service as everyone else? Yes. Did I get it? No! I have asked for the CAL files that Matt has been sending everyone else and have been refused. If I did install it, Matt now claims that my warranty has been voided because I made improvements to the TB. SO I would not get any support or files from him. Matt simply doesn't know how to run a business. Instead of taking steps to satisfy an unhappy customer, he has come on here to make me even more unhappy. Offering me a fraction of what it costs is not being generous. Simply put, I screwed up when I took a chance on him and bought the kit in the first place.
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May 2nd, 2012, 09:49 PM | #103 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Brian
Location: Detroit, MI
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@n4mwd Just saying... even if Matt had any intention of changing his mind or it being a joke, after your last couple posts, I'd be very surprised if anybody in his position would consider helping you out.
As for the cal files, if you install the kit, run it, have problems, and send Matt logs like the rest of us, you would get cal files specifically tailored to your bike. Do you think I got CAL files that he sent to @EMSRacer07 or @flynjay? NO. Do you think they got my CAL files? I doubt it. Did i get new CAL files? Yes like at least 7 of them... BUT I got them to for MY setup each time I sent him log files showing a performance issue I was not happy about. You screwed up when you joined the group buy without doing your own research on what's necessary, then decided you hated the design of pretty much everything even though you saw a diy and photos of the parts, then decided to butcher your throttlebody, then try to sell it but couldnt, then you refused a 75% refund after all the changes, and now expecting @ecotrons to fix everything even though the ENTIRE time you havent been happy with the company or the kit in any way shape or form. I dont know about you but I think the customer is always right mentality might be going a little too far. Take some responsibility for it and you would be hard-pressed to find any customer service representative that wouldnt wanna ignore you. I have nothing against the points you want to bring up about the flaws of the kit, many of them valid but I think your attitude portrayed in your words from the beginning really could use some adjustment. Being polite goes a long way on both sides. As for the 0-60, meh dont really care.
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2009 Ninja 250R SE Green Sport Touring Style: ZG ST; Symtec heated grips; RAM GPS w/ mUSB; DIY reshaped seat; DIY Givi E21 Sidecases; 15T sprocket |
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May 3rd, 2012, 04:09 AM | #104 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: D
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Brian, my primary complaint (yes I have complained about it) is the throttle body. I don't think any sane person would not have complained about it. Most of those who installed it had to install it upside down to make it work at all. The only permanent changes I made to the TB was to add a cable bracket - same as you - so I could install it right side up. The only difference is that I added the proper diameter pulley for the bike that supports both cables. That part works and works far better than anything anybody else has. I still have the option of installing with the plastic firetrap injector housings, but I wont for obvious reasons.
As far as the fuel tap and regulator - that's mostly been other people complaining there. Matt himself is the one that said the fuel tap was dangerous and might break off - not me. Mine looks just fine. I have also said several times that the regulator doesn't need to be redone that not having barbs isn't a showstopper. Nevertheless, its not wrong to complain when something isn't right with a product you buy. The kit was advertised as "PLUG AND PLAY" with the exception of welding the O2 sensor bungs. Can you honestly say the kit was plug and play? Did you just bolt yours on and ride away? Or were you one of the guys that rode off and got stranded and had to get a truck to haul you back home?. Matt has been using US to field test his product - something you are supposed to do BEFORE you sell it. Yes, he has been improving it at our expense. As far as the CAL files, I have a bike with everything stock. I certainly understand that custom bikes need custom configurations, but a stock bike CAL file should be an off the shelf item. Do people in the UK have to send Kawasaki log files for their FI Ninjas? In any case, Matt has said my warranty is voided - meaning no file support from him. This goes to my earlier statements (possibly on another thread) that the megasquirt is a better choice for a controller because its open source, open architecture and there multiple sources for help. With the ecotrons ECU, Matt is the only one in the world that can fix it - which means using it is no longer a viable option for me. As far as the warranty, there isn't anything spelled out on his website as to what the terms are only that it goes for one year. If ecotrons was a legitimate company, I would have recourse, but since its a phantom Internet company, I have only the recourse that Matt says I have. Yes, I knew it was a phantom Internet company operating out of a UPS store mailbox before I bought the kit, but I decided to take a chance on Matt. Now that he has singled me out like this, its clear that I made a mistake trusting him. I seriously doubt that Matt actually has a new TB with a CNC'ed fuel rail. I haven't seen any pictures as promised. But if he does, I will be happy for those that never installed their kits who haven't made modifications to the TB who allegedly will be getting replacements. As far as my attitude goes, Matt shafted me. I've got a right to be pissed off.
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May 3rd, 2012, 09:50 AM | #105 | |||||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Brian
Location: Detroit, MI
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Sure we're testers, nobody else that's installed the kit has attempted what both of us did, which is install it with injectors on top. We are the only ones that "tested" the kit differently than it was originally designed for. For the record, I did get stranded, but that was a simple CAL fix and I didnt have the MAP sensor issue anymore. Quote:
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This has gone too far off topic. We will reconvene after the new TB's get shipped and I swap it out.
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2009 Ninja 250R SE Green Sport Touring Style: ZG ST; Symtec heated grips; RAM GPS w/ mUSB; DIY reshaped seat; DIY Givi E21 Sidecases; 15T sprocket |
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May 3rd, 2012, 10:24 AM | #106 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: MI
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 169
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Here are pictures of new TB of Ecotrons:
Major improvements: 1) Brand new CNC-ed fuel rail. 2) New throttle cable pully with both accel and decel cable mounting holes 3) New throttle cable bracket, so both of your accel and decel cables can be installed from the top (without bending). 4) improved linkage parts and connection beam so that no alignment issues. Note, all new TBs shall be installed with the inejctors sitting on the top. |
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May 3rd, 2012, 10:36 AM | #107 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gene
Location: Sunderland, MA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): '02 EX-250, '03 EX-500 Posts: 18
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Thanks so much for the new pictures Matt!
Any ETA on when new complete kits will be available for order? Also, have you done any testing on the pre-gen with this new TB, specifically throttle cable routing? Ready to order a kit and jump into this before the wife steals my bike while hers is waiting for the FI upgrade... |
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May 3rd, 2012, 10:40 AM | #108 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: MI
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 169
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New TB boots from Ecotrons
Here are 3 boots for Ninja 250r: Old gen carb boot; new gen carb boot; and Ecotrons TB boot. You can see Ecotrons TB boot is the shortest, which is meant to improve the air flow dynamics at high RPMs. Also note, Ecotrons TB boots are customized to fit on both ends, TB one one side and engine intake port on the other side, all with grooves and easy to be clamped. Ecotrons also provides a pair of hard rubber hoses to bridge the TB and the stock air box so you don't have to find your own. But many people replace the stock air box with some performance pod filters, and certainly they don't need these rubber hoses. |
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May 3rd, 2012, 10:52 AM | #109 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: MI
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: 169
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Quote:
The new complete kits are available now, only limited numbers of them. But more are coming! Again the tests have not done for all model years, but we are confident the new kit will work for all model years started from 1988 to now. From FI point of view, they have not changed much. We will work with you if you have any issue for a specific model year or even your own specific non-stock changes. We don't say the kit is perfect, but we are available to fix issues if arising. |
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May 3rd, 2012, 11:14 AM | #110 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Gene
Location: Sunderland, MA
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): '02 EX-250, '03 EX-500 Posts: 18
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Quote:
The bike is a bone stock '02, I'll be sure to document any odd things I come across during the install. You should see my order come through in the next couple days. Thanks for all your work on this! |
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May 3rd, 2012, 11:22 AM | #111 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Byron
Location: Reno, NV
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja ex250 1990 Posts: 761
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dang those new TBs and everything look really good . great improvement.
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1990 250F. ex300 motor swap, 15/42 gearing, flush side markers, newgen intergrated front fairing, rear integrated turn signals, DB Touring Bubble, zx600 rear shock, Custom DanMoto Exhaust |
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May 3rd, 2012, 02:31 PM | #112 |
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Interested again. Will be sitting here reading about results.
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May 3rd, 2012, 02:52 PM | #113 | |||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: D
Location: Palm Beach, FL
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Quote:
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It was in Matt's power (and still is) to make me his best customer, but instead, he chose to make me among the worst. That's also bad business. Quote:
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May 3rd, 2012, 04:14 PM | #114 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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I would hardly take credit for the fuel rail design and the pulley design. It's not that innovative.
I agree, both of us did modifications that are very similar, and like I said, I asked ecotrons if i could try it out and report to them how it went. If I messed it up, they werent going to send me a replacement either but seeing as I did some other tests on it and gave them log after log, they were kind enough to send me one. I still have to send mine back to them too. Just wait till we get some test runs with them. Who knows, maybe you'll still hate it and still want the OEM throttlebody anyways. In this case, it would be totally moot. Back on topic: I wonder if I should try using unifilters instead of the KN-0990 pod filters. Those KN ones are super heavy with all that rubber. I'm afraid it'll put stress on the body and boots. If it bends enough, it might even make the injection out of alignment. Anybody have unifilter pod filters that you would recommend. The foam individual ones would be just fine. I dont mind the oiling of it.
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2009 Ninja 250R SE Green Sport Touring Style: ZG ST; Symtec heated grips; RAM GPS w/ mUSB; DIY reshaped seat; DIY Givi E21 Sidecases; 15T sprocket |
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May 3rd, 2012, 04:43 PM | #115 | |||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: D
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Quote:
Another thing about the fuel rail that was copied from me is the fact that its a pass through rail rather than a dead end rail. Most motorcycles I know anything about use a dead end fuel rail. Even the OEM Ninja uses that. The washer pulley and bracket, ehh, fair enough, but guess who in the group suggested putting a nut on the pulley so it could be changed? It looks like he may have even corrected the diameter. Quote:
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May 3rd, 2012, 05:42 PM | #116 | |
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I'm still debating the whole R-0990 filter idea in my mind. I want to, but I really don't want to kill my gas mileage. I also already modded my intake lid, rejetted for it, and like it, so idk why I would do more work, except to make more intake noise... |
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May 3rd, 2012, 08:10 PM | #117 | ||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Brian
Location: Detroit, MI
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Quote:
It sure is a lot louder and personally, I feel like its imbalanced with the stock exhaust. If you open up the exhaust then opening up the intake is a good idea. Otherwise I feel like the incoming air volume/speed is more than the outgoing. Quote:
Yes I think the pods fit the pregen as well.
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May 3rd, 2012, 08:37 PM | #118 | ||
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
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May 3rd, 2012, 09:31 PM | #119 | ||
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Quote:
Also, Muzzy full exhaust Quote:
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May 3rd, 2012, 09:39 PM | #120 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Brian
Location: Detroit, MI
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Quote:
I wasnt talking about the ecotrons TB, I was talking about your OEM. You said you got yourself an OEM TB. Just install that and get rid of the carbs. Did you attempt to modify the OEM fuel rail too? Cuz that would be bonkers.
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