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View Poll Results: Do loud pipes save lives? | |||
yes | 138 | 34.24% | |
no | 203 | 50.37% | |
I don't care, I'm a bad mofo and just want the loudest pipe so people notice me | 40 | 9.93% | |
I want to make my stock exhaust even more quiet | 49 | 12.16% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 403. You may not vote on this poll |
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September 13th, 2012, 12:13 AM | #281 |
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Of course you're not going to notice a motorcycle coming from behind at 30 over the speed limit on the highway. I'm referring to the cases like here in the city (Chicago) where stoplight to stoplight you are alongside the same group of cars on multi-lane streets.
Louder pipes can announce your presence to cagers, so they know a motorcycle is in the area. Common sense really.
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September 13th, 2012, 12:17 AM | #282 |
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Ok, at a stoplight sure, the cager in front of you will probably hear the humdum of your bike but once cars start moving and more noise is made from turbulence and engines, your bike projecting sound backwards not forward and they just won't hear you.
Besides, split to the front, no one is looking
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September 13th, 2012, 12:22 AM | #283 |
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September 13th, 2012, 12:24 AM | #284 |
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The city is the most dangerous place for motorcycles, where most fatal crashes happen. The city is also where loud pipes will make the most difference.
I think it's pretty obvious loud pipes save some lives, but in my experience the people relying on them as a safety crutch aren't doing themselves any favors and are more often then not the ones who would probably fail the MSF course on day 1 if they actually took it which they didn't. Loud pipes are obnoxious, cause noise pollution, are disrespectful to pretty much everyone else in the world, and would be totally unnecessarily with just an ounce of situation awareness and knowing how to locate or upgrade your bike's horn. |
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September 13th, 2012, 12:57 AM | #285 |
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In cities, there are enough buildings lining the streets that a slightly louder pipe can be heard by cagers quite well due to the sound reflection. (not just at a stop, but while moving)
But i agree that noone should rely on louder pipes to protect themselves, and defensive driving/attentiveness is always the best way to stay safe.
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September 13th, 2012, 04:35 AM | #286 |
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But then in the city, how do you tell bikes with loud pipes from cars with loud pipes? Several times now I hear this loud rumble, look over and it turns out to be a kid in a civic who replaced his muffler with a noiser.
Of course lets be fair in that the Ninja is far more maneuverable than a big Harley. If somebody changes lanes into them, they just have to sit there and take it, whereas a Ninja could either zip, steer or brake out of danger.
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September 13th, 2012, 09:48 AM | #287 |
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Let me take a stab at it.
The question as asked- "do loud pipes save lives" should be interpreted as asking a general, not specific question. In other words, it is not asking "is it theoretically possible to concoct and out of the ordinary scenario where loud pipes are a contributing factor to avoiding an accident." It asking whether or not, as a general rule, loud pipes are likely to significantly increase safety. The answer is clearly no. Human beings tend to think in terms of anecdotes and individual experiences and tend to weigh that one example they witnessed higher than actual data. We tend to extrapolate inappropriately from a single example. This is not an insult, it is a research-established fact about how *all* human brains work. Research shows that we tend to view every experience in a biased manner and tend to only notice facts that support our opinion. This is called confirmation bias Research also shows that we tend to extrapolate answers by cherry picking evidence. This is known as the fallacy of incomplete evidence and while it can be done on purpose, it is often an unintentional and accidental thing. People posting about a specific incident that they feel proves that loud pipes helped are missing the point entirely. Even if I agree that it helped in that one example, that does not affect the larger question. Even many many examples do not. "The plural of anecdote is not data." Let me give you a real life example. My grandmother once fell asleep while driving. She went off the road and flipped the truck. She was not wearing a seat belt, and had her window down. Her life was saved by these facts as she was flung to safety out the open window. In this limited instance, *not* wearing a seat belt saved her life, or least saved her from significant injury. If I were to use this as an example to argue that seat belts *cost* lives, I would be making a very poor argument indeed. In general, seat belts do more good than harm, even if I am aware of a scenario to the opposite. The argument that "if it saves on life, ever, it is worth it" is fallacious because it applies equally well many other things. Weaving wildly back and forth in your lave might increase your visibility. Standing as you ride, popping a wheelie, etc might increase your visibility and could, in theory, save your life. But these are not safety maneuvers. The argument that "if it saves on life, ever, it is worth it" is also fallacious because those making it are unwilling to argue in the reverse. Many more lives could be saved by never riding, or never going on the highway, etc. If one life made it worth it, many many more lives would make giving up biking worth it. Anyone who buys loud pipes because they think it will save their life, or even increase their safety, is either deluded or lying. This is an issue of fact. For the same money there are far more effective safety measures. If you truly cared about safety primarily, you would spend your money elsewhere. If you buy loud pipes because you like the sound, want more power, like the look, etc, then that is a personal taste issue, and while I may not share your opinion, it is not wrong, merely different. More power to you.
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September 13th, 2012, 10:00 AM | #288 |
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These "loud pipes save lives" threads sure don't say much for the state of our society and humanity in general. At least not much that's good, anyway.
It confirms the fact that the douchebag will always be part of our world. |
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September 13th, 2012, 10:17 AM | #289 |
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I think the point is that it doesn't matter if they save lives or not. Slashing everyone's tires so they can't go on the road would also save lives. Having an taser which automatically fires to incapacitate the drivers around you would also save lives. There is a difference between techniques which actually make you safer on the road, and techniques which expose you as a sociopathic moron who who doesn't care about anyone else in the world - guess which one loud pipes falls into?
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September 13th, 2012, 11:31 AM | #290 |
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Wait a minute, I will weave back in forth when approaching an intersection so that cars fixing to turn will see me better. Several times I have seen them hit the brakes.
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September 13th, 2012, 11:44 AM | #291 | |
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Quote:
Chances are pretty similar to this nonsense about loud pipes save lives though...
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September 13th, 2012, 12:15 PM | #292 | |
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Quote:
Nobody is saying that spending $400 on a new muffler is the most cost-efficient way to be safe on a motorcycle. But to compare it to weaving in and out of traffic to gain cagers' attention is pretty silly. Weaving like that does gain attention, but it also highly increases the likelihood that you'll crash, etc. Loud pipes don't increase the danger around you, and if anything, they decrease it. Listen, it's one thing if you think louder pipes are annoying and should be illegal, etc. But to argue that they can't make you even a little bit safer just doesn't make sense. (btw - i run a stock muffler on my bike)
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September 13th, 2012, 01:10 PM | #293 | ||||||
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Quote:
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September 13th, 2012, 01:39 PM | #294 |
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Regarding "cherry picking evidence", what exactly constitutes not "cherry picking evidence"? Everything dealing with motorcycles has an extremely limited data set. There is no data for much of anything, and the data that does exist there isn't enough to make any confident conclusions. There is barely enough data to support that wearing a helmet is safer then not wearing a helmet, much less things like loud pipes.
There's a lot of hot air being shot around back and forth by arm chair philosophers on whether loud pipes make a difference or not, but there's a really easy test. Take a ride on a loud motorcycle. Then take a ride on a quiet motorcycle. See if you can tell a difference. I rode my friend's loud chopper and it was pretty obvious that it does make a difference. Arguing from the position that loud pipes don't make any difference is a losing game and almost a patently absurd position to take anyway. The real argument is that loud pipes are obnoxious and sociopathic and mitigated through riding ability to the point of being superfluous. Just like you don't slash everyone's tires before leaving the parking lot, you shouldn't need to cause irritating noise pollution everywhere you ride just to stay safe. |
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September 13th, 2012, 01:45 PM | #295 | |||||
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Quote:
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September 13th, 2012, 02:28 PM | #296 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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September 13th, 2012, 02:37 PM | #297 | ||
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The Effect of the 1992 California Motorcycle Helmet Use Law on Motorcycle Crash Fatalities and Injuries
Jess F. Kraus, MPH, PhD; Corinne Peek, MPH; David L. McArthur, PhD, MPH; Allan Williams, PhD from the abstract Quote:
You asked for one, but there is so much more. How about Motorcycle helmet use and injury outcome and hospitalization costs from crashes in Washington State. J Rowland, F Rivara, P Salzberg, R Soderberg, R Maier, and T Koepsell from the abstract Quote:
These are quite easy to find if you want more.
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September 13th, 2012, 02:46 PM | #298 |
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Maybe you don't realize this but data which is not statistically significant has the same scientific weight as anecdotes. Both those studies didn't pass the test. Any more?
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September 13th, 2012, 02:48 PM | #299 | ||
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Quote:
But since you asked, yes: The Effect of the Taiwan Motorcycle Helmet Use Law on Head Injuries Wen-Ta Chiu, MD, PhD, Chia-Ying Kuo, MPH, Ching-Chang Hung, MD, and Marcelo Chen, BA Quote:
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September 13th, 2012, 02:53 PM | #300 |
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September 13th, 2012, 05:17 PM | #301 |
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I'm glad you are just copying and pasting things to try to answer me and aren't really trying to actually understand what I'm asking for. Giving me a p value for a chi squared test is like saying me "see? x = 2" for some equation and not telling me which equation you used.
Regardless I hope you get the idea. Let's switch the topic for a second to make it a bit harder for you. Do you think wearing gloves when you ride is safer then not wearing gloves? Can you find me a non-anecdotal safety study backed by reliable data which tells us that wearing gloves is more safe then not wearing gloves? Because according to you we can't move forward with a discussion about safety without data, and if someone is claiming gloves make us safer we need to first deny the claim before it is proven with data. |
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September 13th, 2012, 05:26 PM | #302 |
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Ugh.
I'm just going to go on the record and say if I see someone who claims that their loud pipe makes them more visible to drivers and they are not wearing a high visibility vest, I'm gna punch them in the dick And if your silly pipe saves your life because its making noise why do you not just ride with the horn on? I mean at least that **** is directed forward instead of backward
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September 13th, 2012, 06:16 PM | #303 | |
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Quote:
As far as loud pipes, IFF they hear you in time, they might look before they run you over. But again, even really loud pipes aren't loud enough in the forward direction where its needed, and even if they hear it, it might not register in their brain as a motorcycle as opposed to a loud civic.
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September 13th, 2012, 06:29 PM | #304 | |
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Quote:
I also implied there may be other, possibly valid, reasons for them.
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September 13th, 2012, 06:37 PM | #305 | |
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Quote:
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September 13th, 2012, 11:12 PM | #306 |
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Blaa blaa blaa, whether loud pipes saves life is just an opinion. The reality is that it annoys people and laws are made to reduce that annoyance. There are states that pull over motorcycles exclusively to verify that helmets meet DOT requirements and that sound levels are within legal limits. Bitch all you want, loud noise pisses people off. Keep your bikes at a reasonable level or be regulated! Now get out there wear your gear and drive defensively/courteously and just enjoy your ride.
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September 14th, 2012, 12:08 AM | #307 |
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Few things in this world have proven as reliably effective as the dick-punch for getting your message across.
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September 14th, 2012, 12:40 AM | #308 |
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Yup, my wife taught me that a long time ago. She does not look like a poodle when she get her hair permed... lesson learned!
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September 14th, 2012, 10:03 AM | #309 |
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revving my motor has gotten attention to those that didnt use their mirrors....they were like "oh my god if i would have hit him....."
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September 14th, 2012, 10:36 AM | #310 |
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That's what horns are for...
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September 15th, 2012, 11:29 PM | #313 |
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loud pipes =
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October 2nd, 2012, 08:02 PM | #314 |
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Every little bit helps! Obviously safe riding technique is the most important key for survival, but every thing you can do to make other road users aware of your presence lowers the odds of them not "seeing" you and coming into contact with you...loud pipes are just one bit helping others to "see" you....
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October 3rd, 2012, 02:36 AM | #315 | |
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October 3rd, 2012, 08:34 AM | #316 |
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I assume you wear day-glo orange gear, right?
I assume you have a loud aftermarket horn and constantly blare it, right? I assume you never ride straight but are constantly doing the smidsy weave, right? I mean, every bit helps, so we have to make sure we do *everything.* Otherwise we have a dishonest, self-serving justification for what we already wanted.
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October 3rd, 2012, 08:57 AM | #317 |
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I don't agree with the loud pipe saves lives. What if someone was annoyed with the loud pipe and purposely ran the person over? Saying a loud pipe saves lives is not accurate. Saying it makes people aware you are there might be more accurate. Saying that it saves a life is like saying you got hit by a car and if it wasn't for the loud pipe, you would be dead because the pipe cushioned the damage.
I wear a neon yellow helmet and a bright yellow vest and it has done a great job alerting people of my presence. My exhaust is stock because I can't stand the loud noise. |
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November 13th, 2012, 03:33 PM | #318 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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Were gna need a short bus for 130 people
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November 13th, 2012, 03:56 PM | #319 | |
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November 13th, 2012, 04:27 PM | #320 |
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I think this slogan was just a ploy used by Harley Lobby groups to let them run straight pipes when the legislature was thinking about setting db level restrictions. And "facts" were an after thought to prove their point. Wasn't that why this slogan was originally created? To stop laws for motorcycle noise levels
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