September 13th, 2012, 10:05 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
The Ninja 300 will fail
The type of shopper the Ninja 300 and cbr250r attract are price conscientious ones. Most shoppers for these bikes are not enthusiast but people getting into biking for the first time. Most of these new buyers have heard of Honda and its reputation and most likely haven't heard of Kawasaki. They don't care about 300cc versus 250cc, rear tire size, etc.
The Ninja 250r used to be the 5th selling motorcycle in the US. Kawasaki had a monopoly on the entry sport bike for many years. The Ninja 300 is a reactive response to Honda's cbr250r. The whole point of the Ninja 300 was to win back loss market share. But how does Kawasaki expect to beat Honda by charging $600* more for the base and $800* more for the abs model. In 5 years I'm sure the cbr250 will continue to dominate the Ninja. Now I'm the type of buyer that spends $3000 on wheels or $1000 for a piece of carbon fiber to attach on my car. So buying the ninja 300 abs is not an issue for me. But I just don't see Honda losing this war. *calculated using 2012 cbr pricing with the expectation that 2013 will have a $100 increase. |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:08 PM | #2 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
The cbr250 really lags on the freeway. As long as honda sells a 250 single, kawi will be winning
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:10 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
You registered to post this, umm, why?
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:13 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Chris
Location: Phx
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): CBR Posts: 145
|
Only reason Kawasaki is failing is because it's marketing sucks. I mean did anyone watch that event today? The bikes themselves are great, the Ninja 300 at 4700 is competitive and still under the magic 5000 mark and the 636 looks like it's 10 years ahead of the other Japanese 600s - but wow, the way they presented it. What a disaster.
I agree increasing the price is probably the wrong move. People don't know about Kawasaki in general, and they default to Honda because they trust the reputation. I think Kawasaki still needs a bike to better compete on price with the CBR, things like slipper clutches as standard equipment have me scratching my head. |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:18 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
I know you think my point is to just attack Kawi. But I am not the type of person that follows a brand blindly. I like to voice my concern and opinions rather than sit back and watch a model or company I admire or like fall into obscurity. I would like to see the 300 prosper and really give the cbr competition so future ninja and cbr owners can get a better bike next generation.
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:19 PM | #6 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Chris
Location: Phx
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): CBR Posts: 145
|
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:19 PM | #7 | |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:20 PM | #8 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Matthew
Location: Washington
Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): Bike-less, Can I ride yours? Posts: 318
|
How do you figure displacement doesn't matter?
If it didn't matter why do people contemplate between 600 and 250 starters? How do you figure a entry level rider isn't an enthusiast? They have to do some amount of research before buying a first bike. The extra money you pay goes to buying a much better bike(spec wise). BTW, unless the weight savings on your wheels is significant you likely gained nothing from doing that.
__________________________________________________
RR stands for Responsible Riding... Right? |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:31 PM | #9 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
Quote:
I am aware about weight savings as my tire and wheel package weighs less than my oem forged wheels. See, you and I research and know a lot of detail. I wouldn't say that about most shoppers that go into the dealerships. |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:35 PM | #10 | |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:37 PM | #11 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
Kawasaki does read the forums for feedback. But will they read my post? Maybe not. Anyways, I'm not saying kawasaki and the ninja are bad. I just think they need to price their bikes very closely to Honda's bikes if they wanto win back the market share they lost. I do plan to buy the 300 abs as soon as the riding season starts though. I've already bought some of my gear.
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:40 PM | #12 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:43 PM | #13 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 7
|
It's going to play out the exact way it did in 2008. People with the older bikes were outraged at the prices kawi wanted for the new-gen. Yet dealers couldn't keep them in stock, and it was many months before transaction prices started to come down to reasonable levels. Cue the same thing 3 months from now, as people complain that on one hand, dealers are charging too much and they'll never sell any; and on the other hand complain that dealers don't have any in stock and the waitlist is too long.
But more relevant to this thread, starting it with the title "the ninja 300 will fail" is simply absurd.
__________________________________________________
Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered) |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:43 PM | #14 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
Quote:
|
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:47 PM | #15 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
Just to let everyone know if you have Costco where you live, you can get Costco pricing. It's pretty much a couple hundred off msrp and no dealer prep charges or destination charges.
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:47 PM | #16 | |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
Quote:
Dealer "Here we have the cbr250 and the ninja 300" n00b "what are the deets on these bikes yo?" Dealer "dafuq.... Oh uh the ninja 300 is faster and has all these cool extras" (and a bigger profit margin snickers the evil conniving dealer) n00b "oh fa sho?? well let me get the faster one, afterall I'm an easily persuaded idiot that has enough money for a new bike" And that my friends is how the cbr250 died
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:48 PM | #17 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
not on ninjettes
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:48 PM | #18 |
I hate driving...
Name: S
Location: SW Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): 13 Triumph Street Triple R, 09 Ninja 250r (Sold 4/20/12) Posts: A lot.
|
I'm sure people can tell 300>250 easily.
__________________________________________________
09 ninja 2fiddy SE Driving slow things fast |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:51 PM | #19 |
Ninja noobie
Name: NOOBIE
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250r Posts: 498
|
DUDE! have you seen how sexy it is!! first time buyers always like looks,
300 > honda cbr250r |
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:52 PM | #20 | |
Ninja noobie
Name: NOOBIE
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250r Posts: 498
|
Quote:
|
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:53 PM | #21 | |
crash 250, get supersport
Name: Richard
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: Apr 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250R SE (Sold 6/9/14), 2009 ZX-6R (Sold 6/25/14), Subaru BRZ Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
I don't has monies but can you let me finance it? Aw yeah, send dat **** to my house. (walks out of dealership only to realize it'll be $8k OTD) Dealer makes so much profit. |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:53 PM | #22 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 10:57 PM | #23 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
Since when!? When I bought my 650 and 1000 they didn't have 250s on the list
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:15 PM | #24 | |
Accesories Guru
Name: Dave
Location: Centreville, VA
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): '99 EX250(Cafe/fighter project) Posts: 537
|
Quote:
|
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:15 PM | #25 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Matthew
Location: Washington
Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): Bike-less, Can I ride yours? Posts: 318
|
Quote:
How good are the discounts?
__________________________________________________
RR stands for Responsible Riding... Right? |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:20 PM | #26 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
Quote:
Unsure of the model you want? Locate a Dealer to assist you with your selection. 2012 Ninja® 1000 2012 Ninja® 1000 ABS 2012 Ninja® 250R 2012 Ninja® 650 2013 Ninja® 650 2012 Versys® 2012 Z1000 2012 Ninja® ZX™-10R 2013 Ninja® ZX™-10R 2012 Ninja® ZX™-10R ABS 2013 Ninja® ZX™-10R ABS 2012 Ninja® ZX™-14R 2012 Ninja® ZX™-6R 2012 Concours™ 14 ABS 2012 Vulcan® 1700 Voyager® 2012 Vulcan® 1700 Voyager® ABS 2012 Vulcan® 1700 Classic 2012 Vulcan® 1700 Nomad™ 2012 Vulcan® 1700 Vaquero™ 2012 Vulcan® 900 Classic 2012 Vulcan® 900 Classic LT 2012 Vulcan® 900 Custom 2012 KLR™650 2013 KLR™650 2012 KLX™250S 2013 KLX™250S |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:22 PM | #27 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
The discounts are so good you can walk into a dealer, ride out 10 minutes later and you won't even need to bring any lube
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:24 PM | #28 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jason
Location: seattle
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja Posts: 53
|
My understanding is a couple hundred off msrp then just tax and license. Plus Costco sends you a $250 gift card. And something like 20% off stuff at the dealership.
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:26 PM | #29 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
Yep, straight up skip all the bullshit fees, I love it. Oh and if the dealer tells you, you also get $100 off the extended warranty, he is a lying sack of ****
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:31 PM | #30 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Marc
Location: Castaic, CA
Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 1986 Goldwing, 1996 CR500, 2011 Ninja 250, 2009 Harley Heritage Softail, 1941 Suzuki Gerbil 250 Posts: 427
|
Quote:
I'm so far from a first time buyer, but I have to agree looks are a big factor in why I bought my Ninja. I have 1200's and 1600's already; size isn't an issue <lol>. I got the Ninja for around town and commuting with good mpg. I do love when I walk out to get on my Ninja; she is a great looking bike and fun to ride! I keep my high end bikes for special events and long rides with friends. My Ninja is my work horse; I burn it up instead of my expensive stuff. I'll put a ton of cheep miles on my Ninja and buy another. I do like the fuel injection on the 300, but if they over price it, I'll find something else to burn up.
__________________________________________________
I know there's a 7th gear here somewhere... Changing to 15T/41T, now I'll get that 7th gear, lol. |
|
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:44 PM | #31 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: Rio Rancho
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): many kawasaki 2 stroke triples and a 250R now. Well no more 250R, 2013 300 now Posts: 146
|
I think 3 of the true reasons for buying a particular bike is being missed.
1, It's looks. Sorry, but I thought the 250 up to 2007 were just ugly and never would have thought of buying one. When the 2008 came out, I just went WOW! It didn't look cheap or like a beginners bike, it looked like the bigger bikes. And many posts here are about people confusing the 250 with much bigger bikes. Now it will be even harder to tell. Looks sells, especially with new buyers. If they see a new 250 next to a ZX10 they will crap their pants at the similarity. 2nd, many people don't care how much a bike costs, they only look at the monthly payment. (I used to sell cars and motorcycles) 3rd, there are bunches of comparo vids of the Honda and kawi. Almost all are a toss up. The Honda has more low end torque for town riding, is more comfortable, but lacks power. The Ninja has better power, but you have to rev em. I think people will find the longer stroke and extra CC's will show up with more low end power and good top end. And the bike will handle a bit better, though heavier, and maybe a bit more comfortable. The big sellers for the Honda "was" the ABS and FI, it has lost those advantages. The Honda now looks like the econo bike of the pair. I would bet, Kawi will not be able to make enough 300's for customer demand. And the fact is, Kawasaki probably loses money on the 250's, but it is worth it to them, as new buyers usually stick with the brand they first buy. |
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:48 PM | #32 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
Location: San Jose, Ca
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Apr '13
|
The best thing honda could do right now is drop the price of their 250 to $3999
__________________________________________________
If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs |
|
September 13th, 2012, 11:55 PM | #33 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Marc
Location: Castaic, CA
Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 1986 Goldwing, 1996 CR500, 2011 Ninja 250, 2009 Harley Heritage Softail, 1941 Suzuki Gerbil 250 Posts: 427
|
Best thing Honda could right now is invest in kawasaki, lol.
__________________________________________________
I know there's a 7th gear here somewhere... Changing to 15T/41T, now I'll get that 7th gear, lol. |
|
September 14th, 2012, 12:20 AM | #34 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Brian
Location: El Paso, TX
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Blue 08 250 - Blue Magic Posts: 162
|
I think the 300 is a game changer. The 250 has always been a great beginner bike because of how manageable it was, but I think there was this concern (real or not) that it could not hold its own on the highways.
As Jiggles pointed out, they added 50% more HP. I think the 300 will not only retain its place as a great beginner bike because of the weight and manageability, but now it could be a bike someone could own for a life time, because it can now get up and go. This will not just be a great beginner machine, but also an even commuter. I think in one move, Kawi is enhancing their image with the beginner bike, but also now able to attract people who want a motorcycle as a cheap option to commute. You're absolutely right about price, but if that beginner is so concerned about price you get used. |
|
September 14th, 2012, 03:16 AM | #35 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
Who is this Kawasaki company? Never heard of em.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
|
September 14th, 2012, 03:41 AM | #36 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Fox
Location: Boston
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 08 250R Posts: 881
|
to me, the 300 is smacking all of the other manufacturers who dropped their sub 600cc sport bikes, including Honda. It's going to sell well. It's going to sell better than the cbr250. the ONLY reasons to get the cbr250 over the ninjette, are now GONE. More low end torque, EFI, and available ABS. The only other things left would be brand loyalty and price.
Even if the bike doesn't sell that well, it's going to increase competition in the sub 600cc range. I expect to see 400's and 500's popping up within the next few years. Honda used to have sub 600 sport bikes and they were all dropped until the 250. The thing is, the progressive thinking Americans are shifting their opinions on "bigger is better", and starting to see the benefits in something smaller. The motorcycle manufacturers will catch back up to serve their wants and needs. Where there's a demand, you will quickly find a manufacturer. |
|
September 14th, 2012, 04:11 AM | #37 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Brian
Location: El Paso, TX
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Blue 08 250 - Blue Magic Posts: 162
|
|
|
September 14th, 2012, 07:42 AM | #38 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: John
Location: Illinois
Join Date: Aug 2011 Motorcycle(s): None yet, yet. Posts: A lot.
|
Seems like Honda goofed. They should really be taking advantage of the fact that there's only two companies overall a beginner has to look at when it comes to 250's
Looks account for so much. I can easily say that if the CBR250R didn't look like a malnourished VFR1200F, I would prefer it over the Ninja 250R. The fact that it's a single cylinder doesn't really bother me. There's no question that the Ninja 250 is better on the highway, but generally, 250's aren't ideal for highway use to begin with. Some beginners shied away from the carbureted 250 and went for the CBR without looking back. But now Kawi finally gets with the times and puts out a FI'd beginner bike that doesn't have a playskool instrument panel. Also, it's still a parallel twin and they've added about 50cc meaning it'll be much friendlier on the highway. Every reason why someone would prefer the CBR250R to the Ninja 250R is now irrelevant... the 300 even has optional ABS. I would rather Kawasaki stick with 250's and make a fuel injected one with a dated instrument panel but beggers can't be choosers. The MSRP between the Ninja 300 and the 250R is ~$600 apart. The MSRP between the Ninja 300 and the CBR250R is ~$700 apart. -The 2013 Honda CBR looks like no changes are being made -Honda better drop the price on their CBR250R. Goodnight sweet Honda. |
|
September 14th, 2012, 07:58 AM | #39 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Sean
Location: Middle TN
Join Date: Apr 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250r (sold) / '03 CBR 600RR Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
|
|
|
September 14th, 2012, 08:10 AM | #40 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Frugal
Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW)
Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.
|
If Kawasaki had sold the FI 250 here that they sell everywhere else Honda wouldn't be selling their 250 here and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Snubbing their customers is a good way for a company to lose those customer's business. I see the 300 as being too little, too late to save Kawasaki's dominance in the small bike market in this country.
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Fail compilation (featuring Ninjette wheelie fail) | ninjamunky85 | Videos | 3 | September 24th, 2013 03:44 AM |
shimming fail | toua70 | 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 13 | June 13th, 2012 07:55 PM |
Ninja 500- Beginner Fail (Some Language) | nickjpass | Videos | 19 | August 9th, 2011 07:41 AM |
[topix.net] - How do you say 'epic Ninja fail' in Polish? [Video] | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | June 2nd, 2011 10:30 PM |
Did I fail? | Bleak21 | 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 16 | October 22nd, 2010 06:51 PM |
|
|