September 13th, 2013, 07:48 AM | #41 | |
The Corner Whisperer
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But.... There are exceptions to nearly every rule. On the track, there are pros and cons to completing all braking before entering the turn. But a spectacular part of trailbraking is the nail biting late brake passing that puts the fans on the edge of their seats.
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September 13th, 2013, 07:56 AM | #42 |
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I've noticed that lightly using the rear when in a turn is sometimes very favorable in certain circumstances.
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September 13th, 2013, 08:04 AM | #43 | |
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The intent of trail braking on the track is to go faster. Any turn in which there is a displacement from the tip in to the slowest part of the corner trail braking will net the rider a higher average speed. |
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September 13th, 2013, 08:24 AM | #44 |
The Corner Whisperer
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I have seen it plenty and nearly done it myself many times, it's posted on video in a few threads here.
Loosing the rear from purely aggressive throttle, I would bet is more rare than you think. You can totally light up the rear and the bike will stay pretty stable, maybe a bit wiggly as it looses grip and then catches traction again. However, if you spin up the rear and add lean angle at the same time... I would render a guess that the most common rear traction issue is with chopping or rolling off the throttle mid-corner. The end result is the same as stabbing at the brakes or trail braking with to much brake pressure as the lean continues to increase, to much of the weight moves forward, the contact patches get smaller, the rear unloads and eventually looses grip. Besides... you asked if it was possible and the answer is simply yes. The reasons why can be many.
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September 13th, 2013, 08:34 AM | #45 | |
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If we back things up a bit... to reduce the risk of losing traction at the rear, I'd say you need to shift weight to the rear and get load back on the tire earlier. Which means going to maintenance throttle earlier. (i.e., you're going through the apex at 50 mph but under maintenance throttle, not making the transition from off-to-on at that moment). That in turn means scrubbing off more speed before you reach the apex, which means getting more of your braking done before you tip in. Not all of it necessarily, but more of it. Slow in... fast out.... This thread has win written all over it.
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September 13th, 2013, 08:42 AM | #46 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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I understand that you are trying to make sense of my post, maybe I wasn't clear, but also note that I didn't say anywhere in my comment about the apex. If the rider can get the bike to 50mph before apex, then fine enough... the roll starts before apex. And yes... that would be earlier and reducing risks AND.... going faster. Your not going faster if your on the brakes. ijs
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September 13th, 2013, 08:48 AM | #47 |
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So you can lose the rear by spinning it up and it's not a big deal. So if it gets light under braking it shouldn't be a big deal either.
The point I'm trying to make is that I believe the tire you should be concerned with is the front under braking and turning not the rear. Your focus should shift to the rear under acceleration. |
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September 13th, 2013, 10:12 AM | #48 | |
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I ask you because it doesn't make sense to me (Physics-wise) and I would like to learn more about the position from which you are bringing your upper body forward and down. In other words: You are cornering while normally hanging-off, with your upper-body in line with the bike and your inner leg out (your upper body is forward and down already, isn't it?). Suddenly, you discover that it is a hook turn, and then..................? No steering or counter-steering, the bike just follows the reduced radius?
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September 13th, 2013, 10:28 AM | #49 | |
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September 13th, 2013, 10:31 AM | #50 |
The Corner Whisperer
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Ah, I understand now and that makes logical sense. This is a statement vs. your other post was a question. No harm, no foul right?
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September 13th, 2013, 10:46 AM | #51 | |
wat
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i spent a good deal of time trying to understand how the difference between tuck center in the corner and tuck off the side of the tank could change the weight on the front (it doesn't as far as i can tell from sitting on the bike and measuring the front forks when straight up)
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September 13th, 2013, 10:50 AM | #52 |
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I think the move to the front is just a result of leaning off. The meaningful weight shift is to the inside/down which increases the effective lean angle which would tighten up the radius.
It's the same you do on the exit of the turn. You stand the bike up, lean off more to the inside of the turn, which helps keep your effective lean angle high but the actual lean of the angle of the bike decreases which gets you on the fat part of the tire. |
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September 13th, 2013, 10:53 AM | #53 | |||||
ninjette.org sage
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Funny you mention that it doesnt make sense to you. I though it was total utter bullshit too because for the longest time I couldnt figure it out and kept trying. I then just chalked it up to inadvertent steering input...and it worked mind you until I actually got the front end to shake...luckily I didn't crash or run off track, but I realized that it wasn't working because of my body position. I worked on my body to position to not be so far off the seat and to emphasize having little to no weight on the clip ons. I first practiced the seat by making maximum butt off the seat was just 3/4 of one butt cheek. Once I was comfortable at that pace with that, I then did an exercise where if I passed someone in a corner at a very steep lean angle going right, that I would pass the person and give them a thumbs up with my left arm. I then lengthed it by once setting my lean angle to go through the corner with just my throttle hand and let my left hand/arm hang, wave, relax etc. I then got into a situation where I was doing that and noticed I was running slightly wide. Instead of bringing my left hand back to the controls to correct, I brought my upper body down and forward while keeping throttle still pinned. I was in a pretty deep lean angle and pinned...I know if I added more steering input to make it lean further, previous experience showed that the front end would shake and I would feel chatter and the front grip struggling. I knew I did this right when grip felt good, lean angle from a visual standpoint didn't change and yet my turn arc was tightening. I then started experimenting thinking this hook turn should be the new body position. I rode a couple laps doing nothing but hook turns, but realized there is no reserve with regards to if you need to make lean angle adjustments and it was actually starting to feel uncomfortable. I realized that the hook turn is your last resort When doing trackdays, I realized that you shouldn't ride max out because you will be more prone to mistakes. The same thing applies to body position. You shouldnt be so far stretched out that you cannot make slight adjustments with your upper body. Hopefully this makes sense to you
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September 13th, 2013, 01:09 PM | #54 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
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Yes, I was asking you for a more clear description of the initial and final body postures for the discussed techniques. It seems like an over-reach of the hanging-off position. Our upper-body can only pivot around our hips-lower vertebrae and wrists; hence, any attempt to hang-off more makes it lower (side is down at high lean angles) and more forward, ................ if I have understood correctly. The only way to reduce the radius of the trajectory once leaned is counter-steering some and then increasing the angles of steering and actual lean (combined CG respect to vertical).
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September 14th, 2013, 08:42 AM | #55 | |
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It is possible, and may be desirable for extreme leans, to use the body only in order to induce a little change without overwhelming that front patch. A little into-the-turn displacement of the CG could push the bike up some (by reactive forces), which will induce a microscopic counter-steering quickly followed by a little additional steering to tighten the turn. Although minimum, the forward transfer of weight seems like a necessary evil (as explained in previous post) that goes against the 40-60 rule. Additional weight on the front patch can never be good at extreme lean angles. It may help on making the steering infinitesimally more sensitive and responsive to that small upper-body adjustment, but I am not sure about that.
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September 16th, 2013, 10:59 AM | #56 | |
ninjette.org sage
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The key here is that when you get in your hang off position you don't want to be stretched out hanging off and as far forward and down as possible. You want to be in a good cornering position with a little reserve left to be able to lower your upper body MORE if you encounter the need to tighten your line a little without adding extra lean angle. The forward and down motion does not add input into the bars or change the lean angle of the bike. I'll see if I can dig up pics that show the differences in body position. Misti
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September 16th, 2013, 11:06 AM | #57 |
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Thanks, Misti; please do !!!
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September 16th, 2013, 11:42 AM | #58 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Misti
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Pictures
OK here are a couple pics that illustrate the subtle change in body position that creates the hook turn. First pic is me and another CSS coach- he is more in the hook turn position than I am, his upper body a little further forward and down over the inside/front than mine. Second pic is me racing AM Canadian Nationals and I'm in my regular riding position, you can see that there is some reserve left and I could move my upper body further forward and down if I needed to tighten my line a little bit. Third pic is me racing AMA at Daytona and I'm hooking it here I'm further forward and down than in the other pic. Hope these help!!
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September 16th, 2013, 11:56 AM | #59 |
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Great example pics misti!! The hook turn is a great tool for every rider to know. I've used it at the track on technical turns, and on the street when I had to avoid a lane-challenged driver mid-turn.
It's kind of fun too |
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September 17th, 2013, 04:51 AM | #60 |
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i'm guessing the opposite applies as well.
if you are already in a tight corner and need to go wide, you could change bp and go wide slightly with no steering input.
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September 27th, 2013, 10:26 AM | #61 | |
wat
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if you want to go wide, do an on-gas pickup maintaining current body position (you sink even lower vs the bike)... that way you can put the bike back down when you need to
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September 27th, 2013, 11:06 AM | #62 |
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Thanks for clearing that up
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October 1st, 2013, 02:14 PM | #63 | |
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What would happen?
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October 1st, 2013, 03:01 PM | #64 | |
wat
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it wont, actually. but thinking about what happens when you do it... unless you were being very slow and smooth, moving your body up wrenches the bike down a little. you would have to have some kind of steering correction (which would be automatic due to the trail of the front wheel) to accommodate the change in CG vs centrifugal force which when at the limit of traction pushes things even harder. if you need to avoid someone and go wide because they did something unexpected, you won't have very much time. doing things slowly is out of the question. so we are talking about quickly raising the body up and causing the bike to wrench down, before the centrifugal force pulls the bike up out of the lean. so if you are on the very limits of traction, at worst it can cause a slide. or at best, its the slower alternative to doing a standard on-gas pickup. which situations would this be useful in? situations where your front wheel is already past its limits and is not useful... where your front tire is no longer influencing the bike: corner exit wheelies
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