December 15th, 2013, 11:55 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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Please Critique My Riding (Video Embedded)
Hi, I put this video up in another thread about cameras, and I find myself re-watching it and being critical of myself. I figured I'd post it here and try to get some feedback. Here's what I've noticed:
Here's the video (Note: the audio is very annoying due to an issue with the camera/housing interface. I suggest turning it way down before starting the video):
Link to original page on YouTube. |
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December 16th, 2013, 12:12 AM | #2 |
Your face
Name: Wes
Location: SF Bay Area
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Looks good. I'm pretty newb too, so I can't really add much to what you've already talked about. Definitely have to work on blipping the throttle when you're downshifting though.
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December 16th, 2013, 03:21 AM | #4 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: al
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Are you braking with the clutch pulled in? It's hard to see the tach but it sounds like it. I wouldn't recommend doing that. That's exactly reproducing the 300 recall stall conditions - imagine your engine dying right before turning. Pull in the clutch only when you're about to shift.
Always try to be in (any) gear. Brake in whatever gear you're in and then downshift if you can't blip the throttle. |
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December 16th, 2013, 06:23 AM | #5 |
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+1 on using the clutch only to shift, but it's not for the recall issue. It's because that's the right way to ride the bike. The clutch is pulled in only momentarily... the bike should be in gear as much of the time as possible, both accelerating and decelerating.
Learn to blip shift properly. Don't rely on the slipper... that's a bad habit and it's better not to start there. It's a safety net, like ABS. A good rider will never trigger the safety systems on the bike. A poor rider will use them to compensate for ham-handed technique. Good for you for thinking hard about this stuff, being cautious and seeking feedback. I see you doing a lot more that's right than otherwise. You're keeping the bike in a happy place RPM-wise most of the time (you could go higher, but that's okay). Don't worry too much about your lines. They look okay. Remember this is the street, not the track. It's more important that you ride the line you intend to (e.g. you are in control) than that you use every inch of pavement. You've got the right idea with getting into the proper gear before the turn, but you do not need to separate that activity from braking. It seems like getting out of it really early at various places. It appears that you're coasting with the clutch in sometimes. Don't do that. Get it in gear. Coming up to the sharp left at about 1:10 it sounds like you pull the clutch in and hold it there for a LONG time as you coast up to the turn, then let it out and accelerate as you tip in. It's good that you're on the gas through the turn, but you shouldn't be coasting up to it with the clutch in. When you let the clutch out you're creating forces that upset the bike exactly when you don't want to... at the point where you're turning. The bike is happier when you've got some power loading it. Go get a copy of Twist of the Wrist II, both book and video (bonus... one of the people in the video is a forum member here). It gives really good insight into why you want to accelerate through the turn rather than coast. More importantly, it explains exactly why rolling off the throttle if you get scared is the wrong thing to do. It's a natural reaction but the bike will be more stable and turn better if you don't.
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December 16th, 2013, 06:46 AM | #6 |
Cat herder
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More on the clutch.. @alex.s posted this in another thread to illustrate the right way to screw up and ride off the track
jk..... Anyway, watch and look at his left hand. That's the proper way to use the clutch.
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December 16th, 2013, 09:49 AM | #7 |
wat
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yeah i'd agree with that. when you pull the clutch in and let the motor slow down so much when you try to reengage the motor and drive then you get way too much engine brake and it can lock the rear tire or start slides and stuff
another core issue i see is your marks. you are braking too late (mostly due to just slowing down and not actually braking) which means you are gassing to late also. look, slow, turn, gas. find your line, slow to the correct speed, do your turning, then immediately return to the gas smoothly and consistently. gas is what makes the bike stable. with proper throttle control and good tires one could easily double the speed you were taking the road through most of the turns. obviously that's a bad idea since if you screw up on that road you're going to be hurting. you should think about taking a track day if you want to build skills
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December 16th, 2013, 07:44 PM | #8 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
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Quote:
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=310
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December 16th, 2013, 08:41 PM | #9 | |
Private Joker
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Quote:
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December 16th, 2013, 08:57 PM | #10 |
Fast-Guy wannabe
Name: Jason
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If were talking about lever controls here's a cool video I made in response to members asking me about my clutch control method and simulates a slipper clutch but better because you control it's effectiveness in each corner. This would be an advance technique of which almost no one uses and is hard to do after learning any other way. Just ask @CycleCam303 how effective it is but at the same time how quickly you can screw it up and almost high side. Also a good view in the first half of throttle control under clutchless shifting, which I never uses off the track because in my opinion the gearbox on these little bikes are just to sloppy for it to ever feel like a supersport. My trans does seem looser then others I've ridden to take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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December 17th, 2013, 07:09 AM | #11 |
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December 17th, 2013, 07:33 AM | #12 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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You CAN loop a 250 my good man. There is video proof.
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December 17th, 2013, 10:05 AM | #13 |
King Hamfist
Name: Cameron
Location: NorCal East Bay
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Clutchless up shifting on a ninjette with stock rearsets never really works consistently enough for me. Even the woman that was renting the feel like a pro bikes I did my last trackday with was complaining about the ninja popping out of gear a few seconds later. Which by the way is a great way to get really jacked up if the bike does that mid corner.
Learn to rev match downshifts. Also practice using the clutch as a brake. Look at rojo's video. He is modulating it at the friction zone. He isn't just dumping it at every downshift. I use this in the street and on track. But as a forewarning, not blipping the throttle and modulating the clutch under hard braking can cause the rear tire to move and put the bike in a slide. This is the technique that supermotard racers use to back it in. It also means that it can get you very sideways and cause a massive high side when you screw it up. Or the bike won't steer in as you'd like and you go into the dirt but with the rear tire first. Yea I've done that one too. You're a new rider. Soak in one thing at a time. Right now the most important thing for you is being smooth. Practice downshifting and blipping the throttle. You're acceleration and decelerations should be smooth and not jerky. |
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December 17th, 2013, 10:22 AM | #14 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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Common guys, at just over 1k miles he aint gunna (and maybe shouldn't) be using the clutch as a brake and such. Crawl -> Walk -> Run ya know.
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December 17th, 2013, 12:58 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
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Thanks for the input everybody. It's interesting how we've moved from my basic failure at fundamentals to interesting, advanced track techniques and wheelies. I don't mind any good discussion though, and many good discussions can go off on tangents. Please don't take my observation as discouraging any comment.
It looks like the thing most mentioned (and most in need of practice) is properly downshifting while slowing to approach corners. That jumped out at me as well while reviewing the video. I'll work on that on today's ride. Please feel free to keep the discussion going. Also, any comments on the right corner at 2:00? I have still never touched a foot or peg to the ground. Is it possible to tell from the camera angle if I was close to running out of lean angle? I felt like I didn't have much left, but I don't really know if what I'm feeling corresponds with reality. Whenever I'm leaned over at what I feel could be a "touching something to the ground" angle I find myself saying "don't chop the throttle if something touches the ground" over and over again...I'd really hate if I chopped the throttle anyway as a survival reflex lol. Anybody have any stories of their first time touching something other than the tires to the pavement while cornering? |
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December 17th, 2013, 01:03 PM | #17 | |
wat
Name: wat
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Quote:
a better way to say it is that you could probably take that speed close to double what you were going if you had proper body position and input control
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December 17th, 2013, 02:44 PM | #18 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
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^^^ dats what I'm talkin' bout.
There is much to be learned from the turn @2:00. 1st, throttle control. If you entered a corner with enough speed where you can't get a good throttle roll then you might want to get a handle on that. 2nd, when your straight up and down, you can get on the brakes much harder than you think. Remember that one if you ever feel your gunna enter a corner too fast. 3rd, you already know that you could improve on your clutch/braking and upshifting but honestly, for street riding your upshift is fine but do try to kill the coasting. As you learn the capabilities of your brakes, you will get a better feeling of when to hit them so you will not brake to early. Things that most riders will NOT tell you; That corner at 2:00 is under shade. Your traction could vary with different conditions/temps. The corner at 2:00 is bind as well, late apex it. Why? So when you exit the corner, your bike and a cage will not try to occupy the same space at the same time (cars turn in too early too). It will also give you more time to set your entry speed. Be mindful of the double yellow. While your tires my not cross, you head might while leaning. Start by working on your shifting up and down and go from there. I think you riding just fine for where you are. Glad to see you are seeking education and working on skills too, just don't forget to have fun while your at it.
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December 17th, 2013, 04:18 PM | #19 | |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
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anything under 10mph you should still be able to loop it, my problem clutchless upshifting is that I don't quite have the timing down from first to second and either get the power back on early = front wheel off the ground, or I get on the power late and it just feels awkward. I've never gotten it off the ground more than 2 feet or so on the upshift as it's usually between 1-2 feet though closer to 2. typically I stay on the throttle and it stays up for a second or two before dropping back down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQohsDpFlNI" TARGET="_blank">Link to original page on YouTube. Quote:
as for the shifting, upshifting is good enough but try blipping the throttle some more on downshifts and avoid coasting. engine braking helps slow you down a lot on ninjettes. the shade point is a lot more important in winter as this is where ice is going to pop up and ruin your day, even if it may be 40 degrees out or so the shade lowers it enough to where it will take forever for it to properly melt. late apexing is almost always the way to go on the street, while you do have to slow down a bit more for it you have more vision and great throttle roll on practice. |
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December 17th, 2013, 04:24 PM | #20 |
wat
Name: wat
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i think you are over exaggerating
a 2 foot wheelie is almost at balance point. maybe you mean 2 inch wheelie.
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December 17th, 2013, 04:26 PM | #21 |
ᗧ•••ᗣ•ᗣᗣ•••ᗣ
Name: Nick
Location: NY
Join Date: Nov 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R and 2014 Triumph 675R Posts: A lot.
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wheelies huh well not there yet anytime soon
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December 17th, 2013, 04:34 PM | #22 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
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wait, is balance point really that low? because I'm easily getting the front wheel above where my knees would be if I were standing and I don't feel anywhere near balance point.
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December 17th, 2013, 04:50 PM | #23 |
wat
Name: wat
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like i said. i think you are overexaggerating with the "2 feet" thing. if you "accidentally" pushed the front up 2 feet from dropping into 2nd gear, the extra 6 inches are basically nothing, and you would have looped it
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December 17th, 2013, 05:31 PM | #24 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: eddie
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you did OK ...coasting thru turns is OK for parking lots but not really for the road. Maybe ride a little bit further to the right when there's no crap on the road.
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December 17th, 2013, 06:28 PM | #25 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
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for the knees I'm off by about 5 inches (including riding shoes) just measured. it's definitely getting clear off the ground by a reasonable margin, not just 2 inches or so, though I clearly can't measure it through feel.
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December 17th, 2013, 07:25 PM | #26 |
Fast-Guy wannabe
Name: Jason
Location: Brentwood, Ca
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If your throttle has to much slop then tighten it up end of story, don't complain about it Throttle slop is one of my biggest complaint when I hop on other peoples bikes.
The slipper clutch is perfect for noob downshifts like your doing but like you implied you really should learn how to do it right. When you hold the clutch in for that long you rpms drop all the way down to 2K so when to release it it tries to catch back up to the wheel which is still going at 7K rpms. This causes a higher then normal rear tire dynamic braking effect until the motor rmp and wheel rpm match. If your smooth with the clutch like me you can use that extra drag to do some cool stuff but if not then when you drop it to fast it will act like a quick jab to your rear brake and I'm sure you know that's bad mid corner when you don't expect it. The slipper clutch will absorb any errors in your clutch release smoothness and kinds simulate what I do automatically but you don't want to rely on it. Practice on the 250 that way the slipper clutch on the 300 doesn't screw with your technique. Relying on a slipper clutch to absorb bad riding technique is like saying I have traction control so I'm not going to practice throttle control and just whip that throttle wide open off every corner because it'll correct any errors. Ask @Alex about his awesome TC on his old BMW, given it would have turned out that way anyways but had the situation been slightly different and on a bike 500lbs lighter a good riders reaction time could have saved it. Rider and driver aids make you lazy and when Marc Marcez runs into the back of your bike accidentally cutting you TC wire, well then you better well remember how to control that throttle or else your in for quite the flight. |
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December 17th, 2013, 08:16 PM | #27 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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Quote:
I still haven't gone and practiced my emergency braking...I need to find a good parking lot or similar safe practice area and get around to that. I think that will help me with my confidence in the bike's ability to slow down quickly when upright if necessary. I took the same road on the Ninja 300 today. That right turn at 2:00 was MUCH easier when I knew it was coming. I agree with some of the previous posters that 45mph is nowhere near the traction limit, and I can see how my poor throttle application (or lack thereof) when the corner surprised me actually made life more difficult for me. I tried to practice blipping the throttle while downshifting while braking...I think I almost got it right a couple of times but more often than not my brain would be overloaded by trying to do all of those things at once, or I'd get a sympathetic reflex going where pulling the clutch would affect the amount I would pull on the front brake. My first few emergency stops in the MSF class I had a similar situation where I would pump the front brake every time I clicked down a gear with my left foot (I know, weird...I was able to mostly get that gone with practice). I'm going to watch some videos and read up on the technique and keep practicing when I get a chance (open road, nobody behind me...minimal stress situations). I did focus on not holding in the clutch while braking. I'm getting better at that, but I noticed I still tend to just pull the clutch lever at about 10mph and keep it pulled until I'm stopped when I'm stopping at a red light. Typically I'll be cruising at 45 or 55mph in 5th or 6th gear, see traffic slowing ahead, downshift to 4th or 3rd well before I need to start braking to engine brake (tapping the rear brake to light up the brake light if there's somebody behind me), then I'll use appropriate combined front and rear brake to slow while in 4th or 3rd, not touching the clutch lever. Once I'm down around 4000rpm I'll either clutch in and stop, or downshift into 2nd and split up to the front depending on conditions. I've been trying to late apex corners like they taught in the MSF class, but I still miss every now and then lol. Oh and I do have fun when I ride, even though it seems like all I'm doing is working on improving. Part of the fun for me is improving, but the other part is just being out on two wheels enjoying some beautiful roads. It seems like on almost every ride I take on the back roads I have a moment where it's just me and the bike, there's no other vehicles visible anywhere, the countryside is rolling by, and I get so happy I wind up with a huge smile on my face that would probably look pretty ridiculous if anybody were around and could see through my helmet. |
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December 17th, 2013, 08:44 PM | #28 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
Location: Santa Maria, CA
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2013 White Ninja 300, 2010 Red Ninja 250r (Sold) Posts: 335
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Quote:
I'm still trying to match revs with the 2013, the slipper clutch is just there to maybe help if I screw up, but like you said it's important to always do it the right way so we don't develop bad muscle memory, which humans usually automatically revert to in an emergency situation. Even when I was holding the clutch in forever like in the video I would try to throttle up to what I felt was close to an appropriate RPM before letting the clutch back out, since I have already slid the back tire once by failing to do so and I'd prefer to not have tires sliding at this point in my riding experience... |
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December 17th, 2013, 09:28 PM | #29 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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Np Jeff, glad to help when I can.
Without going into a bunch of stuff I am sure you already know... the only things that stand out in your response are; You handled the right turn better when you knew it was coming. So, am I correct in thinking you didn't know the road? If I am right, then your road speed should be relative to your vision and the distance you need to stop. ie If you can't stop in the distance you can currently see, your going too fast into the unknown. Yes... sometimes this is painfully slow. And don't sweat pulling in the clutch when going to 1st gear during a stop. That is pretty normal. As you get better, you might wait until around walking speed. No sweat right.
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December 17th, 2013, 10:22 PM | #30 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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I agree, part of it was overdriving my sight lines. It's been at least a couple years since I had been on that section of road, and the last time I was there I was actually on a bicycle. Usually when I'm approaching a blind corner I think "what if there is a slow moving vehicle like a bicycle, or a stopped vehicle, or a cow, etc. right around the corner" since I've been that slow moving vehicle before. I guess I got a bit enthusiastic when I saw that beautiful left hander and forgot there could be an unsigned corner immediately after it. I was still leaning left thinking "I'm going to have to lean right before I'm going to have time to slow down as much as I'd like to...this is going to be interesting." Most of the tight turns on this road are signed so I got a bit complacent about looking ahead for bends in the road.
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December 18th, 2013, 05:43 AM | #31 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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Lol, cows... I hit a cow in a cage about a year and a half ago. The young ones can be similar to deer. $1500 worth of damage
Around my parts, most of the curves are unsigned and worse yet, some of the signs are just plain wrong. Most are too slow as you would expect, but there are a few that are too fast. Those can catch even the most experience riders off guard if they don't know the route.
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March 23rd, 2014, 11:59 PM | #32 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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I figured I'd revive this thread instead of posting a new one with the same title.
Here's an update from my ride today on the same road. I got some of the same sections of road in as the videos in the original post, plus I included some footage of getting on the freeway with somebody merging below the flow of traffic in front of me, combined with the person in the right lane slowing down, making for some interesting traffic flow patterns. I'm pretty sure I tried to shift into 7th gear at the end of the freeway clip lol. I've been focusing on downshifting before the corner and staying in gear/not holding the clutch in. I get the shifting in way before the turn, and often I don't need to use the brakes because I've engine braked down to the appropriate corner entry speed. I'm going to gradually try braking and downshifting at the same time. Should be fun. As always any tips are greatly appreciated. I'm not sure why the camera shook back and forth in the middle of the turn at 1:48 (by the way that's the same turn mentioned at 2:00 in the original video, and it's one of my favorite turns now...I like the quick left into right shift). Any insight there? I didn't notice feeling any loss of traction or anything else wrong. |
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March 24th, 2014, 10:33 PM | #33 |
wat
Name: wat
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looks good. give it a rev when you're downshifting and it will smooth it out a bit so you can let the clutch out quicker without upsetting the bike
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March 25th, 2014, 06:16 AM | #34 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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You seem to oversteer a lil bit on the exit of the left handers. I know that seems like I am nit picking for a 45 sec. vid but actually... I feel it to be a clue about about visual skills. What are you looking at on corner exit? You looking at the center of the road or yellow line?
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March 25th, 2014, 06:54 AM | #35 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
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For the freeway section where you riding a 1000 SS?
You were passing cars fairly easily so clearly you could not have been on a 300 or 250, everyone tells me you can't pass cars on a 250/300 when on the highway/freeway, they are to slow.
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I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
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March 25th, 2014, 09:57 AM | #36 |
Nooblet
Name: Akima
Location: England
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R FI Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '13
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Not a criticism but... I didn't notice any mid-corner corrections. Awesome! It always feels good if I set the bike up, lean it over and don't have to adjust mid-corner I don't always get it right.
I notice that in a lot of the crash videos, the riders make lots of mid-corner corrections before they eventually crash. It's like they don't know how to confidently set the bike up and smoothly stick to a good line. Or at least... they don't know how to do it at the speed they're travelling... which is something else positive I noticed in your video. You didn't look like you were riding outside of your comfort zone. You looked in control at the speed you were travelling. If you want some criticism... tell your ninjette not to get high before a ride. I could barely see the video through all that smoke Edit: I'm a nooblet so you prolly shouldn't listen to me |
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
March 25th, 2014, 12:09 PM | #37 | ||||
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
Location: Santa Maria, CA
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2013 White Ninja 300, 2010 Red Ninja 250r (Sold) Posts: 335
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Quote:
Quote:
Usually the first thing I'm consciously looking at while exiting a corner is the next corner, evaluating what lane position I should turn in from, what my entry speed should be based on how far I can see through the corner and/or the sharpness of the corner if I can see the whole corner, etc. but I could be unconsciously looking at something else. Of course if there is no next corner I'll start scanning far up the road for hazards, and every now and then look around at how beautiful the scenery is. Part of the problem could be I had my camera mount tilted slightly to the left for this video, which makes it look like I'm leaning a bit left when I'm actually straight up and down. Quote:
Quote:
The actual culprit was my Sony action cam hot boxing its waterproof case. I wish there was an easy way to mount it without the case. I have some of the desiccant strips coming in the mail to throw in the case with the camera to prevent fogging...they should arrive today. A week and a half ago I was on a group ride and the rider behind me mentioned that I was sitting 3" to the right of center the whole time he was behind me. He didn't say anything until I specifically asked him during a break if there was anything he noticed I could work on, but as soon as I asked it came out quick, like he was already thinking of saying something, but didn't want to offend me by being critical of my riding. You guys don't have to worry about offending me; I'm here to learn and if I'm doing something wrong I'd rather fix it now than turn it into a bad habit that's harder to fix later. |
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March 25th, 2014, 12:13 PM | #38 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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Bingo!
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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March 25th, 2014, 05:57 PM | #39 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Jeff
Location: Santa Maria, CA
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2013 White Ninja 300, 2010 Red Ninja 250r (Sold) Posts: 335
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Here's one from today. I was practicing my throttle blipping while riding around. I got it perfect a few times and it felt great. Of course I'd give it not enough and too much sometimes, but I left plenty of margin for error so if I jumped forward from too much blip I would be ok.
Link to original page on YouTube. |
2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
April 18th, 2014, 06:27 PM | #40 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
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my opinion on your latest video:
1. don't touch the paint. ever. its slippy. randomly so. you can be going along fine on lots of paint with no slip then all the sudden one spot of paint has something on it even though it looks exactly the same and it starts a slide and you get bucked just right now all the sudden you're steering off the side of the road down the canyon. 2. you are making several steering moves. including steering corrections after you're down. make fewer steering changes. it looks like maybe your tires are causing the bike to not want to follow a line, forcing you to constantly correct steering like you're fighting the bike on where you want to go. so maybe check tire pressures and profiles. maybe time for new tires. 3. more gas. gas makes the bike stable. 4. go to the track. it's funner.
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